Talk:Christmas tree/Archive 2

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Prohibition of Christmas trees in Russia after the revolution

This article repeats some wide-spread, but erroneous rumors about prohibition of the tree in Soviet Russia from the revolution to 1935.

Although such rumors happen to be told even in some low-quality scientific publications, they are obviously not true, but some sort of jumping to conclusions based on misinterpretation.

Maybe Christmas parties were prohibited as Christmas ones. But if we mean this, Christmas parties were not reintroduced in 1935.

If we mean winter-holiday parties and spruce-trees (without sorting Christmas from New Year), the tradition of children parties with trees was not prohibited, it was even supported by communists.

As an example. After the revolution preschools (kindergartens) emerged in Russia, they were state-run. The main contributor to musical upbringing in the kindergartens of Leningrad was N. N. Dolomanova. She was the head of the musical department of an institute (university), her books and papers were published by state publishing companies, she was more or less the official voice of the communist state in preschool education.

Among the books published by Dolomanova are:

  • Н.Н. Доломанова. За ёлочкой. Пьеса для маленьких детей, с приложением песен Лядова. Пг., Начатки знаний, Труды Музея «Дошкольная жизнь ребёнка», 1923 (Going for the [New Year] spruce tree. Short play for little children, 1923)
  • Н.Н. Доломанова. Дед-Мороз развеселил. Сценка для маленьких детей, с руководящей ролью для одного взрослого, с приложением песен Кюи, Лядова и др. Пг., Начатки знаний; Труды Музея «Дошкольная жизнь ребёнка», Детская театральная библиотека, N2 (серия); 1923 (Ded Moroz amused us. Short play for little children, 1923)


and, the most persuasive,

  • Н.Н. Доломанова, Снегурочка к детям на елку пришла. Сценка у елки для маленьких детей с прилож. музыки Римского-Корсакова, Лядова и Кюи. «Начатки знаний», 1923 (Snegurochka came for a children's New Year party, 1923)

Similar New Year parties with spruce trees were in Moscow schools, according to the journal Вестник просвещения (Jan 1923).

But from the 1924 there was a campaign against the religious Christmas holiday (although the school and kindergarten parties had become New Year parties by that time). The parties were not prohibited but discouraged. The same journal Вестник просвещения writes in Jan 1924 that schools tried to ban New Year parties but parents struggled for them. New Year was widely celebrated at least until 1930, by 1930 schools started promoting the idea that trees were good for human health and beauty of the nature.

So we can see that new-year-tree parties were not prohibited soon after revolution. They were widely organized and supported by the state until about 1923, from 1924 they were banned at schools, but they were never prohibited as private celebrations. Later than 1924, but not later than 1930, schools started propaganda against holiday trees, though they were never banned.

2001:4898:80E8:1:0:0:0:299 (talk) 20:49, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Christmas tree origin links to English Saint Boniface/Saint Winfrid

Why is there not even a little byword on the said links the Christmas tree may have to the English missionary (and patron Saint of Germany) Saint Winfrid/Saint Boniface. Saint Winfrid felled the sacred Thunder Oak of the Germans, bet his act has links to church spires/steeples too(?)

It's not like historical books have not mentioned it an proposed link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Boniface — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.75.50 (talk) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Problem in source material

Citation 11 Fritz Allhoff, Scott C. Lowe (2010). Christmas. John Wiley & Sons. "His biographer, Eddius Stephanus, relates that while Boniface was serving as a missionary near Geismar, Germany, he had enough of the locals' reverence for the old gods. Taking an axe to an oak tree dedicated to Norse god Thor, Boniface chopped the tree down and dared Thor to zap him for it. When nothing happened, Boniface pointed out a young fir tree amid the roots of the oak and explained how this tree was a more fitting object of reverence as it pointed towards the Christian heaven and its triangular shape was reminiscent of the Christian trinity."

There is a big problem with this, which is that Eddius Stephanus did not write a biography of Boniface. The story of the fir-tree is pious fakelore without source in any historical document. The article on Saint Boniface tries to over look this with "Well, the BBC and Lutheran children's books say so" but those are not good sources. If an actual historian asserted it without there being real historical documents it would still not be good enough.--Aionlux (talk) 04:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Anything to do with Donar's Oak? Dougweller (talk) 11:51, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
The quote of Lowe is worthless and must be thrown out. Author did not do his homework and has no source for his story. He says on page 44 "the English St Boniface, locally known by his birth name of Wilfried..". Boniface birth name was Wynfreth, not Wilfried. By mixing up these names Lowe comes to the saint Wilfried whose biography was indeed written by Stephanus - but contains nothing about felling of an oak or fir trees. For the Boniface story he has no source. Willibalds Vita Bonifatii, the only historical source for the oak story, has nothing about fir trees. The fir story looks like a recent legend trying to explain the christmas tree after it had spread already. I remove the whole paragraph which is only based on this quote.Kipala (talk) 11:29, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

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sourcechecked=true  —jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 08:15, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Need a more objective side of the story of the origins of the tree instead of the 1-sided story, and no on line 935893589385395 is not the right prioritizing

"Originally a Celtic custom, the Christmas tree developed in early modern Germany[...] with predecessors that can be traced to the 16th and possibly 15th century, in which devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes."

That's not true. It was actually the opposite, non-devout "christians". It was people who protested against christianity as it was and made their own view and way of life, the protestants. In the countries from where it originated, germany, scandinavia etc. It's called to "Yule" or "Jule". Now people care so much about being offended nowadays, it can't pass by anyones nose that "Christmastree" is an insult. The inventors of the tradition were heathen/folkloric people - for christians meaning "the bad guys/terrorists", so the christians could not use it. So should we also rename the diesel and benzin engine into "some-totalitarian-belief-system-that-enforces-that-they-are-shephards-engine" aka christiangine, jewgine, islamgine when it would suit their need? What is on with all this 1-sided religious oppression of other people and their beliefs? The correct translation from the inventors of the tree should be something like, anti-abrahamic-religion-totalitarian-1984-depression-oppression-tree, or Tree of light or just the Joytree.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.189.14 (talk) 01:24, 27 January 2016‎ (UTC)

Protestants in the 15th century? However, the whole origin story in the article is sketchy. According to the article, there was a Christmas tree in Tallinn in 1441. The merchants who financed it were probably German alright, but they weren't from "early modern Germany" nor they were probably familiar with the Celtic culture. They didn't bring the tree into their homes but instead had it in the Guild Hall and later on the marketplace. So the article is quite contradictory. JJohannes (talk) 07:55, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Public christmas tree

It should be mentioned where the first public tree was erected and why. http://www.presseportal.de/pm/7880/3187656 "Weimar may be famous for many things – but hardly anyone knows that the first public Christmas tree was erected in Weimar. Taking pity on the poor children of the town, one night before Christmas in 1815 or 1816, court bookseller Johann Wilhelm Hoffmann put up the first Christmas tree for the public anywhere in Germany outside his shop in Cranach House on the market square. The dream of a Christmas tree for all children had finally come true. To commemorate his gesture, every year the tall fir tree on the market square is erected to the accompaniment of carols performed by local choirs a few days before the Christmas Market opens." http://militaryingermany.com/weimar-christmas-market I don't know if it should be in the "history" section or in the "Public tree" since its both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.137.50.2 (talk) 02:13, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

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History.com as a source

I don't think that an anonymous article on history.com is a reliable source. The channel is probably better known now for its fringe material than anything else. Doug Weller talk 18:51, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

WorldNetDaily source / text about 2007 incident

I do not think this content is either properly sourced (WorldNetDaily is not a proper source) or proper weight within this article. This minor incident that occurred more than 11 years ago isn't really significant historically or culturally. Neutralitytalk 16:31, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, I'd imagine thousands of places have minor incidents like this .... the cited source mentions it but the source isn't actually about it, I don't see much point including it. –Davey2010Talk 16:59, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree it doesn't belong. And of course WND is never an acceptable source for something like this. Doug Weller talk 17:05, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Historical references wrong and chaotic

The array of historical references is pretty chaotic. The article starts with the completely unreferenced claim for some origin in medieval Livonia (present-day Estonia and Latvia) and is then claimed to be connected to Protestant or Lutheran Germans. Then a strange website by name of history.com is used as source.

Now in the German wikipedia entry there are several sources listed like these: the earliest is from 1492, an entry into a Stasbourg cash register for acquisition of 9 fir trees for the 9 city churches (Strasbourg municipal archive, files of Liebfrauenwerk 1 OND 85 f°92v, published in Bulletin de la Cathédrale de Strasbourg, XXVII, 2006, p. 95) on the occasion of New Year , which up to 16th century was identical with Christmas. Then another entry from the library of Selestat/ Schlettstadt says that 4 Shillings were paid to the forester to guard the trees after St Thomas Day (December 21). The first documented mention of the term "weiennacht baum" (Weihnachtsbaum = Christmas Tree) is in a file of 1527 concerning the forest of Stockstadt am Main[1]. In 1576 the forester was paid in Gengenbach to bring a Christmas tree to the Town Hall ("Wiehnachtsbaum uf die Ratsstuben"). So all of these first mentions are from South-West Germany and Alsace (then also German), and definitively not Lutheran or Protestant (because too early, or in the case of Gengenbach too late, it was Catholic again by 1576).

Using Encyclopedia Britannica of 2012 (and calling it a "source")looks rather hilarious as that entry carries the bold claim "Tree worship ... survived further in the custom, also observed in Germany, of placing a Yule tree at an entrance or inside the house during the midwinter holidays", which is obvious BS as at least in Germany there is nothing like a mid-winter holiday (would be in February, winter begins on December 21) and definitively nobody places Yule or other trees at the entrance of whatsoever.

The actual and verfied origin in the paradise plays, however, is presented as a pure possibility whereas it is well documented that 24 December has been the Day of Adam and Eve, the Britannica of 2003 looks like a sober summary (different from Britannica 2012), and Christmas liturgy as well as old songs show the connection between Christmas and Paradise narratice. Kipala (talk) 15:51, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and the Boniface story about the small fir tree is cute but fo all practical purposes unsourced - and it is not in the source in the vita Bonifatii description of the oak felling, cf. The life of Saint Boniface by Willibald,  translated into English for the first time with introduction and notes by George W. Robinson, Cambridge, Harvard University Press 1916. Throw it out. Kipala (talk) 23:18, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ image here

History

It seems the very root and origin of Christmas tree (and other Christmas traditions) from the Mithraism and Zoroastrianism is somehow missing here. I am not a specialist in this field but can bring two sources for more reading [1][2].

Re444 (talk) 21:41, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.academia.edu/7258903/Christmas_is_an_old_Tradition_from_Persian_Iran%DA%A9%D8%B1%DB%8C%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%B3_%DB%8C%DA%A9_%D8%B3%D9%86%D8%AA_%DA%A9%D9%87%D9%86_%D8%A7%D8%B2_%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B1_%D9%BE%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C%D8%A7%D9%86_%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86
  2. ^ https://www.w-z-o.org/articles/zoroastrian-origins-of-the-christmas-tradition/

72 Candles?

I have seen references over the years to a custom in Britain that a Christmas tree must have 72 candles. One is in the E. Nesbit story ‘Sir Christopher Cockleshell’. I see that candleholders for Christmas are often sold in packs of 72, even now; look on Amazon. What is this about? The article could use this info. 2A00:23C3:E284:900:48AF:68C6:24F7:BAE8 (talk) 18:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Other holiday trees

In more recent times, I have seen trees in houses devorated for other holidays and seasons. Are these covered anywhere on Wikipedia?--Khajidha (talk) 20:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Picture of the pretzel should be moved

In my opinion, the picture of the Christmas tree pretzel should be moved to a different location within the article as in my opinion it is out of place in its current position (the 'See also' section). Xboxsponge15 (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

The Use of Evergreen Trees?

Please have a look at the following: "For example, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica, "The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands to symbolize eternal life was a custom of the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmas time."[24]

With all due respect to Britannica, or any other source, we should not present sentences as if they are facts, when they are so general they become factually wrong.

Where and when did the Hebrews use trees, for worship of eternal life? It is forbidden in Judaism. I am unfamiliar with any holidays that consists a tree, even remotely.

Maybe rephrase to provide a more accurate representation. 



— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.64.94.6 (talk) 05:17, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

North America

The North America section only talks about the United States. What about other countries in North America? 2600:4040:11FC:2F00:5506:79BE:EF59:96C8 (talk) 18:47, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The section does talk about Quebec in Canada. However, more could be done and there could be more done about Christmas Tree traditions in countries on the continents of South America, Africa, and Australia. Myotus (talk) 21:31, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Reordering of sections

I have restored the former order of two sections, chiefly the "Origin of the modern Christmas tree" and "Possible predecessors" section. I note that the latter was renamed "Ancient predecessors", but that heading is inappropriate since there is no conclusive evidence that the trees mentioned therein are definitive antecedents of the modern Christmas tree, with certain scholars deeming such postulations as being pareidolia. Per WP:BRD, this should be discussed if any editor(s) wish to contest the status quo. That being said, I have left the vast majority of the other changes intact. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 01:09, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I think you are right. I found this source mentioning that [1] Page 11. Also "pagan" is a broad term that does not apply to any particular culture so I imagine it would not lead to any particular source as a definitive origin. At minimum, historians have not reached such a consensus on where, if it came from one place at all, it "started". Ramos1990 (talk) 01:59, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the citation. Scholar Nathaniel Parry in his How Christmas Became Christmas (McFarland) states that "there is no solid documentary evidence" for a "pagan connection to the Christmas tree". Since there is a lack of evidence, such claims (despite these claims being present in pop history articles) should be included in the article secondarily to what we do know about the origins of the Christmas tree, which are definitively linked to the modern era in Germany. I think that the restoration of the former order of the sections was appropriate too. Kfager1 (talk) 00:44, 10 December 2022 (UTC) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Jobas/Archive

I'm happy to see that we have consensus regarding the order of the sections and content therein. I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season! With regards, AnupamTalk 16:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

First Christmas tree

The first Christmas tree was in Latvia in 1510 66.161.224.3 (talk) 15:43, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

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