Talk:Cliff Mass

To consider integrating in material from this

See: https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-university-of-washington-should-not.html . -Pengortm (talk) 03:19, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Pengortm, I follow his blog too. But until secondary sources take notice of the issue and report on it, it's not appropriate for the article. Right now, I can only find coverage of it on mynorthwest.com, a minor local site. Schazjmd (talk) 21:16, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily call mynorthwest.com a "minor local site". They are the website for KIRO-AM, KIRO-FM and KTTH. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:19, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Religion

Someone – or perhaps more than one someones – has implicitly or explicitly rejected properly-sourced inclusion of the subject's religion [1] [2]. I've asked at WP:BLPN what should be done. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:21, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

(pinging remover) @WxScience:, would you explain why you believe the information on religion should not be included in the article? It's properly sourced and is something he's open about. Schazjmd (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Controversy section

Joe Veyera of Factal News observed that Mass compared Seattle protests to Kristallnacht in a Tweet that was quoted in The Stranger. Particularly if this gets more coverage, this may merit inclusion in a "Controversy" section. Prof. Mass has had numerous controversial opinions and criticism leveled against him; I'm surprised not to see them listed here yet. White 720 (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't include it unless greater attention and coverage is given to the incident. A brief mention in a local paper isn't that important (and the tweet isn't citable per WP:SPS). Schazjmd (talk) 18:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I created a section "Opinions on non-weather-related topics" with a couple of items. Will add to it as I find more information. White 720 (talk) 18:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I removed the portion sourced to the Stranger. You took liberties interpreting the brief mention, as neither Veyera's tweet nor the Stranger clip "criticized" it. Veyera's tweet says "Cliff said X", and the Stranger parroted "Cliff said X and Joe mentioned it in a tweet". Not WP:DUE. Schazjmd (talk) 19:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I apologize that I hadn't read your reply when I first added the section. I accept that the article has not had much mention in notable media and I agree that it's fair to leave it out for now. White 720 (talk) 19:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I have reinstated the reference to Mass's August 5 blog post, though without mention of "criticism" in The Stranger, because Mass's radio show has been cancelled as a direct result of it. White 720 (talk) 01:34, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

That development makes it relevant, thanks. Schazjmd (talk) 13:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Conflict with Sarah Myhre

I had added information about conflicts that Dr. Mass has had with Dr. Sarah Myhre, a colleague at the University of Washington. Similar information is present on Dr. Myhre's page. The paragraph on Dr. Mass's page was later deleted by User:Nathanmass who claimed that it did not belong on Dr. Mass's page. I reinstated the paragraph and then User:Peter Gulutzan reverted it again because consensus had not been reached, per WP:BLP. Does this conflict merit inclusion on Dr. Mass's page? I included it because it had been documented firsthand by Dr. Myhre herself and there are reliable sources that had verified it. White 720 (talk) 18:14, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

My edit summary for my reinstatement of the paragraph speculated about whether User:Nathanmass was related to Dr. Mass, which under WP:PRIVACY constitutes a form of harassment. I apologize for that speculation and will refrain from such speculation in the future. White 720 (talk) 18:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I lean toward excluding it unless there's some greater impact to make note of. Scientists disagree and spat all the time. Unlike the above discussion about Mass's blog post (which resulted in the loss of a radio program), this just seems to be a disagreement with no real consequences to give it relevance in a biography. My opinion is WP:UNDUE (although I'm open to being convinced otherwise). Schazjmd (talk) 18:32, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think it's clear that White 720 intended no harm and caused no harm. I am not agreeing with Nathanmass's remarks, but do think that the addition about Ms Myhre is poorly sourced. The cite to grist.org is primarily about her not about Mr Mass; the other cited source looks like a group blog of an advocacy organization. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 19:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Radio work in lede?

Should Mass’s former work for KUOW and KNKX be mentioned in the article lede? A user removed a sentence to this effect and I wanted to see if a consensus of users favors reinstating it. White 720 (talk) 15:23, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Support keeping those former affiliations in the lede; his role as a public person is what convinced me he needed an article in the first place (Academic Notability alone is harder to justify). Plus, many of the journalistic sources in the article refer to these affiliations. J-Mo 22:39, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

The Stranger

The Stranger is an "alt-left" opinion newsletter, not a reliable source. White 720 has decided to use it as the main source for this article in what seems to be a deliberate attempt to introduce bias and support attacks against the subject of the article. Deranged opinion pieces like this should not be used as sources when neutral ones exist:

You now have two choices with local weatherman Cliff Mass. One, you can continue to play his games, which go on and on and on without going anywhere; or, two, you can simply conclude that he is on the side of climate denial... There really is nothing else to be said about Cliff Mass. He represents an expression of the mode that strives when fossil fuels are burned in a world directed by the bad infinity that compels the endless multiplication of culturally codified units of account (money making more money) as its defining relationship with nature, the absolute. The expressions of this mode are numerous because human social power (which surges from the absolute) is determined by the culture of units of account (monetary wealth).

Local news station King5 covered the same incidents without bias, and should be the preferred source. Before starting the long process of fixing this page, I'd like to ask why he is camping this page to prevent improvements, and why he has previously tried to include what other editors noted to be "group blogs of advocacy organizations" in this biography. 207.32.162.180 (talk) 16:42, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It's a free print newsweekly, or alternative newspaper, distributed in the Seattle area, but I agree with the gist of what you are saying. It should not be used as a RS for what amount to opinion pieces. The Stranger is not good about identifying what is straight up news and what is opinion, and what is a mix; editors should be free to use discretion here and challenge what seems not to be in the first category. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:RSOPINION permits the use of opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers, so long as the opinions are attributed to the author (which they are) and it is clear that readers are reading an opinion (which I think it is). The Stranger is widely read and known in Seattle, and Mudede is a notable and accomplished opinion writer, even though I don’t agree with everything he writes. White 720 (talk) 18:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC)