Talk:Clipstone railway station

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Status[edit]

 – Redrose64 (talk) 17:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is debatable whether it is meaningful to talk of a "station" on the LD&ECR main line at Clipstone, goods or otherwise. Whilst the often-reproduced early map[1] implies a station at Clipstone, no source uses any term other than "Clipstone Siding" (or Sidings, which was the name of the associated signalbox) in text[2][3] or Gradient Profile[4]. A later work describes the facility as "a modest goods and cattle dock."[5] All OS maps from 1900 to 1955 show the site as "Clipstone Siding."

Further evidence is required to substantiate the claim that the siding "handled passengers." This is not impossible, workmens' services or excursions may have called, but it is not clear where the passengers may have been heading or how they would board or alight from westbound trains. The 1948 map is cited, but does that do more than repeat the cartographer's shorthand mentioned above?

There is considerable doubt whether Butt's Clipstone Colliery Sidings and Clipstone Siding are the same thing, not least because Clipstone Colliery was not opened until 1926 and was rail served from the erstwhile Mansfield Railway, not the ex-LD&ECR main line. The co-ordinates used for this article correspond to Clipstone Colliery Sidings, whereas Clipstone Siding would be at |53|10|57.16|N|1|6|39.65|W|, SK593654.

  1. ^ Cupit & Taylor 1985, opposite page 22.
  2. ^ Cupit & Taylor 1985, p. 18.
  3. ^ Dow 1985, p. 159.
  4. ^ Dow 1985, p. 158.
  5. ^ Anderson & Cupit 2000, p. 50.
I moved the above from the article, which is not the place for discussing such matters. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The text should be reworded so that it doesn't sound like a personal observation but rather a neutral summary of what the sources indicate without asking the reader questions. For example, "it is unclear whether..." or "it is questionable that...". Lamberhurst (talk) 18:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, what now? wait for someone to spot this discussion and respond? I've had a look at the British Railways pre-Grouping Atlas & Gazeteer and it shows "Clipstone (Goods)" at the site of Clipstone Siding, so maybe this hinges round "what is a station?" I don't have Butt so I can't look up whether he has both Clipstone Colliery Sidings AND Clipstone Siding. DaveDavidAHull (talk) 19:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Butt lists two stations at Clipstone: one, Clipstone Camp, was opened 1 October 1917 and closed after 1919. The other, Clipstone Colliery Siding, was opened at an unknown date and closed after August 1968. Both stations are shown in light type, which means that they were not shown in public timetables but "either private or in some sense open only to restricted traffic", which in the case of Clipstone Camp would probably be the Army, and Clipstone Colliery Siding would be for miners. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Quick also gives two stations:
  • "Clipstone Camp" - line opened 13 June 1916, built by War Office, taken over by GCR 17 December 1917; shared route of line to Clipstone Colliery. First in Bradshaw in November 1917; last there in July 1920 when it is said that services will be discontinued on the 10th. This corresponds to what is said in Croughton, Kidner & Young.
  • "Clipstone Colliery Siding" - on the Mansfield Railway; non-timetabled service. Dates unknown.

Cobb doesn't show a line to the site of where Clipstone Camp is supposed to have been, only the spur to Clipstone Colliery from Rufford Junction. An OS map from the period could shed considerable light on the situation. Lamberhurst (talk) 07:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • The web site http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html enables us to look at OS maps back to the late 1800s. Go into it (it is free to use) and manually enter the following co-ordinates in the boxes at top centre of the screen 459555 365422, click on Go you will be offered a range of maps, select (for now) one from the 1950s, it will display a chunk of map including the (old) village of Clipstone. Left click to enlarge and use the sliders at right and bottom of the display to navigate. North west of the village is "Clipstone Siding" on the LDEC main line west of the triangular Clipstone Junctions. This fits with all sources, including Jack Cupit. Explore older versions at will, I think they all match. Note the triangular junction which has LDEC West to east and Mansfield railway N-S, look south down the Mansfield Railway you will see a lot of sidings on both sides of the main tracks SE of Clipstone Village, they are Mansfield Concentration Sidings, known locally as the "Con".

Type the following co-ordinates at top centre: 459815 363662 and select (for now) a 1950s map. The display will show "New Clipstone" and Clipstone Colliery. A can't see Clipstone Colliery Sidings named as such, but Clipstone Colliery Junction is named. New Clipstone was built when Clipstone Colliery was built between the wars. Clipstone Colliery Junction is off the SW-NE erstwhile Mansfield Railway which joined the ex-LD main line just off the map top right. I've looked at the 1938 version and, alas, the line is still shown as "under construction", the cartographers must have got a few years behind! This all fits exactly with Cupit's SW to NE narrative description in Trains Illustrated, Feb 1956 pp60-1, who wrote "...more mineral connections come in at Rufford Junction [..] overlooking the sprawling ugliness of Clipstone Colliery. The sinking of this pit was suspended in 1914 as a result of war; the half mile branch to the site was already built, and when a large Army camp mushroomed nearby the branch became "for the duration" a military line instead of a mineral one. A single platform station appeared and there is said to have been a small shed here, home of an 0-4-0 tank of GC ancestry used as a camp pilot. After the peace the camp vanished and in its place arose a colliery village to house workers at the now-completed pit. The station went with the military, but to this day New Clipstone has a Station road - to a station it never new! [..] A mile beyond Rufford Junction we come to Mansfield Concentration Sidings [..] It is only a mile from Mansfield Concentration Sidings to the end of the line, down past the tiny hamlet of Clipstone [..] Old Clipstone, like its new colliery namesake, has no station; a single siding serves the needs of the agricultural folks hereabouts..." I propose this siding is Clipstone Siding, a different beast in a different place from Clipstone Colliery Siding. Dave DavidAHull (talk) 14:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. The question is then whether Clipstone Siding saw any regular passenger traffic, timetabled or non-timetabled, public or private. It could be that existing works have conflated the two (Colliery Siding and Siding). If no evidence can be found that it did, Clipstone Siding would be no more than a goods station and a small one at that, which raises doubts in my mind as whether it is notable enough to merit its own article. In any event, the current article here is wrongly named in that there was never a "Clipstone railway station" and should be moved to one of the stations which did exist. Lamberhurst (talk) 17:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree, if this happens I will be prepared to edit Warsop and Edwinstowe entries to get rid of Clipstone, noting that the original map (as copied in Cupit & Taylor and widely taken as authoritative) shows a station, but nothing more than a siding was ever built. I would also be prepared to write a Clipstone Colliery Station article as part of the work I've done on the Mansfield Railway, which I don't regard as finished, I have a route diagram still to do for starters. Dave PS when does a siding become a station? DavidAHull (talk) 21:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to re-write the present article as Clipstone Colliery station, I will then move the page to match that name. As for sidings which become stations, there are a number of examples where a passenger service was introduced but generally in those cases the station has gone on for a number of years afterwards. The only example I can think of which had a very brief passenger service is Church Siding (there is also Wood Siding but this survived for a longer period). Perhaps Redrose can recall others? Lamberhurst (talk) 07:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have noted there has been previous discussion on this subject but recommend the title should be Clipstone Colliery Sidings which I have quoted from "Private and Untimetabled Railway Stations" by G. Croughton. He states that he has a ticket from the station which states Clipstone Colliery Sidings.Steamybrian2 (talk) 22:23, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Misplaced commentary II[edit]

 – Redrose64 (talk) 09:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For some years the Wikipedia entries for Warsop and Edwinstowe stated that "Clipstone railway station" lay between the two. This appeared to be supported by the map reproduced on the rear cover of the definitive work on the LD&ECR by Cupit and Taylor and elsewhere. That map does indeed show "Clipstone (Goods)" on the LD&ECR main line between the two stations. This facility was, however, never more than a small siding with a signalbox which primarily served as an intermediate box on the main line. In another work Cupit explicitly states that the siding was never more than just that - "Old Clipstone, like its new colliery namesake, has no station; a single siding serves the needs of the agricultural folks hereabouts.".[1] No source suggests otherwise.

The confusion was compounded because, despite the above, Clipstone did have two stations of sorts, both to the east of what became New Clipstone, off the Mansfield Railway line, a good mile asw the crow flies and twice as far by rail from the siding on the LD&ECR main line:

  • The first station is referred to in Butt as "Clipstone Camp".[2] This was on the large World War I army camp situated on the site of what later became Clipstone Colliery and was for use by military personnel and people on army business. It was dimantled along with the camp after the end of hostilities. It was never a normal, civilian, timetabled station.
  • The second station is referred to in Butt as "Clipstone Colliery Siding".[2] He gives no opening date, but implies it was before 1923, as he associates it with the Great Central Railway and gives a closing date of "after August 1968." Clipstone Colliery was off the Mansfield Railway. The online database of lines by Engineers' Line References makes no reference to any such station under CCN or anywhere else.[3] At most this station provided somewhere for colliery workmen's trains. No source shows that it ever carried an advertised public service.

Close study of this data, eg the location co-ordinates, shows it to relate to Clipstone Colliery Siding, not Clipstone Siding, the two are as dissimilar as Euston Station and Euston Underground Station or Newcastle, England and Newcastle, Australia.

  1. ^ Cupit 1956, p. 61.
  2. ^ a b Butt 1995, p. 63.
  3. ^ CCN, Clipstone Colliery Branch: via deaves47
I have moved the above from the article because discussions regarding the accuracy of Wikipedia articles and the validity of sources belong on talk pages, not on articles. Please see WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:V. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Aha, I now see where all that discussion a couple of months ago went to, I assumed it had been binned. I had access to Butt in a library yesterday, hence the spur to put long-ago words into action. I've edited Warsop and {{rws|Edwinstowe}], doubtless I've breached some protocol or some such. I reckon the Clipstone railway station page should either be binned or a new one called Clipstone Siding be written (I will if you like) as it may come up in future, given that it's on the map in Cupit & Taylor and elsewhere. DaveDavidAHull (talk) 09:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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