Talk:Cosplay/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Leading picture

The original lead image
My (JPNEX) replacement

Hi, I think the current picture in the lead is not the most illustrative one on the topic so I replaced it, but User:Niemti reverted this change. The two pictures are on the right. I think the Phoenix convention is obviously a worse choice because

1) it's more crowded, with less clear focus on the cosplayers.

2) one of the two cosplayers in focus is turned away

3) the lighting is bad and the color balance is off (too red), making the picture rather dull

The Japanese replacement is a much clearer picture, it's more striking and it's of Japanese cosplayers - which makes sense as this is where (the modern form of and the very word) cosplay originated. I think most readers would expect a picture of Japanese cosplayers at the top. JPNEX (talk) 09:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

It isn't and please stop pushing you own work. (We've seen this before.) The whole point is not to make anyone at all a "face of cosplay". Btw, from technical standpoint ("a much clearer picture, it's more striking"), your photo has a wrong white balance (besides being oversaturated). Here are some of my own most recent photos: [1][2][3][4][5][6] - but guess what, I'm not going to push them (it's Poland, btw). --Niemti (talk) 09:33, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Wow, that's most unfriendly! Of course I add my own pictures to articles but only when I think they are better than what's currently in place - this is hardly "pushing". If people disagree, I'm happy to discuss it, but opposing it merely because I've added a picture I have myself taken can hardly be supported by the guidelines. While looking for articles to insert my images into, I've many times found pictures which were better than mine, and in those cases I haven't of course made any changes. In this case, however, I do think my replacement goes better with WP:LEADIMAGE than the previous one. The white balance may be a little bit off in mine as well, but it still strikes me as obviously technically better than the previous one, more reprsentative and more interesting. What does everybody else think? JPNEX (talk) 10:02, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Your pictures are very nice, btw! JPNEX (talk) 10:14, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
I think it's borderline. In my ever-so humble opinion both are arguably as bad as each other. I honestly agree with your assessment of the current lede image, but think that the positives of said image:
  • Multiple cosplayers in one shot
  • Wide variety of clothing/characters
  • Natural stance and posing
Outweigh the deficiencies.
However, I don't think that your own image is really much better. The quality is better, but it's essentially a headshot, and contains no imagery of the "cos" part of cosplay - the costume. I would have to side with Niemti that on those grounds alone the image is not suitable for the lede - with the proviso that I don't think that means it has no place in the article, only the lede.
Suggested lede replacement
I'd like to see a completely new image if we have to replace it, or a mix-up and one of the already used images replacing it. To my mind the best image on the page is Princess Amidala - it's almost too good, as you could be mistaken for thinking it really is Princess Amidala. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:39, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the input, I guess I have to agree. I do see the point in having several different styles of cosplay in one photo, though I don't think the current photo really satisfies this as only two are in focus, and one is turning the other way. I don't think the Princess Amidala picture would be great either though, I mean it's certainly a great shot but it's not the most representative of cosplay. JPNEX (talk) 10:59, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Seems I already included one of your photos as to illustrate the Japanese etymology. Btw, much of https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cosplay is actually models. Some models are also cosplayers (like in case this one [7] of my recent photos, she's with her own costume and was just hired a booth babe), but many are just regular models who wear what they were given and for example [8] is obviously not even a character costume). IF you guys really want, actually I can post a good picture of a large group on stage or something (speaking of Amidala: 1 week ago I did this [9]). --Niemti (talk) 10:49, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Many people on a stage sounds like it could look a little too sterile (just my 5c).JPNEX (talk) 11:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Isn't that other picture of mine better for the lead than the current one though? Rather than in ethymology. (giving it the caption suggestion #4 in case it floats away) It shows a duo in full costume. JPNEX (talk) 11:06, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Suggestion #4
Here's a group of Japanese, "body shots". Suggestion 5 — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPNEX (talk • contribs) 11:07, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

My propositions (random groups of people, unposed): [10] [11] Or just this: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Unidentified_cosplay#mediaviewer/File:20140118174713IMG_5618_M_-_Desucon_Frostbite_2014_-_matiast1.jpg (white balance is screwed but I like it anyway). --Niemti (talk) 11:21, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The picture you replaced is rather boring and stiff and, as I guessed it might be, sterile. I think the lead image should be more zoomed up. If it includes more than one person (which I don't think is strictly necessary), I think in general there shouldn't be many more than 3, and maybe only torso up. The picture shouldto be immediate and attention-grabbing, and full body shots of a bunch of people standing lifelessly on a stage just doesn't cut it. Also, Niemti, please don't just change the lead image willy-nilly when we are discussing the different options and what to do. If everybody did that, we'd have a revert war in no time. (JPNEXP, not signed it)126.109.230.86 (talk) 14:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I support the current File:20140118174713IMG 5618 M - Desucon Frostbite 2014 - matiast1.jpg. Good quality, many cosplayers. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:47, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

This picture has been removed by User:Sleyatx with no rationale a year ago. I am restoring it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:06, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Recurring problems with lead image and analysis of all images

Discussion of current images

This article seems to be a magnet for some people replacing the lead image with little discussion. Setting aside the usual 'personal preference', I think we also have to deal here with aspects of vanity - some of those pictures can be added by individuals with COI (either the cosplayers themselves or people connected with them). This was discussed several times in the past, and I think we have the consensus for at the very least ensuring that the lead image is not an image of a single individual, but of a group. With regards to other pictures included here, the issue is more difficult, but we should try to focus on gathering images that are representative of the topic in general and individual sections in particular. What is representative is of course open for more discussion but I think we should have at least one of the following:

The above is only for current pictures, many others were included in the past. It would look even better in a table. Anyway, I think we should try to add past pictures to this, and then see how we can balance it.

Few final thoughts: picture quality matters (through not too much, since most readers don't go beyond thumbs). Illustrating many aspects help, and so does explaining this in a good caption.

Ping editors previously engaged in those discussions: @JPNEX, Niemti, Chaheel Riens, KyuuA4, Sanatherandom, JIP, Dogcow, Eric Burns, Canoe1967, Andy Dingley, and Cogiati: of course anyone else is welcome to chip in too.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:52, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Not a fan of the current lead. Too many figures, too small, too big a black stage background. I like the idea of the lead being a group shot to show some variety, just not this one. Maybe a group of 5, so they're not becoming too small individually. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
@Andy Dingley: I am totally fine replacing this with a better group shot if we can find a better one. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:38, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
First of all, I think these images File:Mileena Space City Con.jpg and File:Cosplay (20242487348).jpg do not meet quality requirements (too blurry) and need to be deleted from the article.--Александр Мотин (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
I wouldn't delete them, but they shouldn't be used (too poor quality). Andy Dingley (talk) 17:17, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
(e/c)
I have purposefully avoided re-reading my comments regarding the previous changes, but I'm willing to bet that my opinion has changed somewhat, as the last discussion was a few years ago (I think).
Firstly, I disagree with Александр Мотин regarding File:Mileena Space City Con.jpg. In this case the cosplayer is not the focus (no pun intended) of the image, but the photographer is. That particular image is intended to show that photography and posing is an accepted part of the Cosplay phenomena - the caption makes this clear: "Professional photographers working with Mileena cosplayer for a chroma key studio photoshoot". I have no real opinion over the second image, but if pushed agree that it's probably not the best type of image to be included.
My opinion regarding the images - especially the lede image - is that the only essential criteria they have to meet is "do they represent the article subject to the best of their ability?" In answer to that I agree with Andy Dingley regarding the stage image - yes it shows variety, but only if you squint, and even then not very well.
I would be against using the File:Ciri_Cosplay_(The_Witcher_3_Wild_Hunt)_•_2.jpg image as a lede for several reasons: The character and show are not well known enough for a casual reader to recognise them, and it's a headshot only, there is no real costume to be seen - an important part of cosplay. To that end, I suggest that an image such as File:Padme2_(1).jpg, or File:Lara-Croft-by-Tatiana-DeKahtar.jpg are used as the lede. Both are of well-recognised characters (Lara Croft more so, I admit) and both show a costume in detail as well.
ISTR that I advocated the Padme image last time as well, but we decided against it for some reason. Fair enough.
From a personal point of view, I like File:Ginny Weasley.jpg, mainly because it's a well framed non-anime image, but probably not esoteric or full costume enough for the lede. Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:28, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
@Александр Мотин, Andy Dingley, and Chaheel Riens: I generally agree with Chaheel. The first image has an interesting focus, even if the quality is average. If anyone can find a better image showing professional photoshot of a cosplayer, we can consider replacing it, until that point, I think it can do. File:Cosplay (20242487348).jpg is one of the weaker images and doesn't really show anything that unique - generic female fantasy attire. We could likely find a better technical quality, and the image doesn't really fill any particular niche except a generic type of a cosplay. I am also ok with moving the Ciri image down or removing it, and out of the two other single character images I think Lara Croft is better (technical, and likely a better known character).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:38, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
@Chaheel Riens and Piotrus: Do not hesitate to use these images for costume demontration:
File:Ciri Cosplay (The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt) • 3.jpg --> File:Ciri Cosplay (The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt) • 4.jpg --> File:Ciri Cosplay (The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt).jpg
As you can see the whole costume of Ciri is made in compliance with the original one in the game. And even eye color is the same as the character has in the game. I have got reasonable doubts that cosplayer of Lara Croft File:Lara-Croft-by-Tatiana-DeKahtar.jpg has authentic costume. Frankly speaking it is far from be authentic (check Google images). The eye color of Lara Croft isn't blue. These images of Ciri cosplay have very big advantage towards the other ones - their notability (WP:N) confirmed by reliable sources at least like Gamespot [12] (Alexa global rank - 687 [13]) and Nerdist [14] (Alexa global rank - 5368 [15]) and rated like "excellent". I have no idea why you think that less quality images should replace notable and professional ones in this article.--Александр Мотин (talk) 20:39, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I think we differ over our intepretation of notability. While I have no doubt that the Ciri images are notable and have been covered in popular media the actual character is not well known - a casual reader who glances at the cosplay page will not know who Ciri is, but they will know instantly who Lara Croft is, even if the eye colour is wrong. Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:42, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

@Chaheel Riens: Lara Croft's costume is also wrong along with inadvertence to the look of Lara while costume (and its authenticity, of course) is very important part of the article as you said above. For now I may conclude that Ciri photos (you may choose one you like) are professional (high quality image, authentic costume, sword, scar on face, hair, eye color etc.) and notable. And I don't see any reason why one of them cannot be included to article. --Александр Мотин (talk) 11:55, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
(e/c) It may be wrong, but that does not make it bad cosplay. Lara Croft is more notable than Ciri, so by default a cosplay of Lara Croft is more notable to the average Wikipedia reader. This alone makes the Lara Croft images more appropriate. I'm not saying that the Ciri images are not appropriate for the article somewhere else, only that they are not the best representation of the article subject, which is what shoudl be considered for the lede. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
The inappropriate image of Lara Croft's cosplay (reasoned above) is bad choice for the best representation of the article subject to my opinion. And even if Lara Croft as heroine is more notable than Ciri it doesn't mean that you can place such inappropriate images to the article while the article subjest is about costume (as you said above and I totally agree).--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:28, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Both images are valid, Ciri as a professional cosplay endorsed by the copyright holders, while Lara is presumably more amateur. We could, I am sure, find a picture of a professional, endorsed Lara model too - through I am not sure we have one under a free license at commons:Category:Cosplay of Lara Croft. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:08, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Discussion of former images

I will post some comments about former/proposed images in this section shortly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:39, 7 August 2017 (UTC) The following images have been either present in the article or suggested on talk. Here are my thoughts on them:

That's for images with thumbs on this discussion page. Analyzing each image that ever appeared in the article would take few hours just to list them, so I will just list whatever caught my attention when I looked at the half-yearly (summer/winter) snapshots of this page. It also shows that some decent images were removed with no rationale. A lot of the first images have been deleted. First surviving ones are from ~2006

What's my conclusion? Many mediocre pictures are added, survive for few months or even yeas, them rotate out. This is certainly something to put an end to. At the same time, same happens with high quality, interesting pictures. Several of the ones linked above should IMHO be restored. I think we need to chose the best of those pictures, plus new contenders, and then add a rule for this page that any change to the pictures needs to be discussed on talk. The free style adding and removing pictures on a whim needs to end. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:53, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Discussion of proposed images

I'd also like to add this image into the mix - File:Tekkoshocon_2010_cosplayer_with_Mahora_Academy_Middle_School_for_Girls_winter_uniform_from_Negima.jpg, which amuses me, because it's so realistic it was actually a part of the Catholic school uniform for several months before being removed (by yours truly). Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:40, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

And yes, I'm aware of the provenance of the image. Irony, no? Chaheel Riens (talk) 18:23, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
You mean it was part of that article's page? Ha. However, I'd say this picture's quality is problematic: a bit fuzzy face, noisy background. While I do think we should have a picture of a 'Japanese schoolgirls', I think we can find better. Sadly, commons:Category:Cosplay of students is underpopulated. I'd chose group File:Cosplayers of Mio Akiyama, Yui Hirasawa, Tsumugi Kotobuki and Azusa Nakano, K-On! at FF18 20110731.jpg or File:FF21 cosplayers of Yui Hirasawa, Azusa Nakano, and Ritsu Tainaka 20130216.jpg instead, through I hope we could find even better. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:02, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

If pictures of male cosplayers are wanted ("under-represented in our article" above), then I think these are quite good photos:

At least one of them might have a place. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 16:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

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Too many pictures

This article is impressively crowded with pictures as examples. I think a trimming is in order. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 07:46, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Did it. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 15:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

File:20140118174713IMG 5618 M - Desucon Frostbite 2014 - matiast1.jpg is the among the higher-quality cosplay images on Commons, and it shows off a large number of cosplayers and a variety of styles/props. I appreciate the work that has been done by User:Zero Serenity to cut down excess images in this article, but I support this image's inclusion and have added it back to the #Costumes section.

I have also removed File:Fallout Cosplayer Villa Carrara.jpg from the #Conventions section, as it has a noticeably lower quality than other images in the article, isn't very illustrative, and causes WP:SANDWICH issues in that area.

I would like to further propose swapping the current positions of the Yukicon and Ciri images: while of excellent quality, the Ciri image (1) is framed as a headshot, limiting the amount of "costume" that we get to see; it is a very good example of cosplay makeup, but not a broader/traditionally-conceived "cosplay", which includes costumes and props (2) is only of a single subject, and fails to show off a variety of styles and cosplay sources like the Yukicon image.

What does everyone else think? — Goszei (talk) 08:59, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

I do agree Ciri's cropping doesn't make it the best lede image and been trying to figure out a better full body shot to put in that place. I don't think the Yukicon photo works better here as its pretty far pulled back. Do we have something else better in commons? Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 12:59, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
@Zero Serenity: I read through this talk page's Archive 2, where User:Piotrus put together a pretty good review of the pickings on Commons. I also looked through c:Category:Group cosplay (500 images) a bit, but none of the selection really jumped out at me, and much of it is low-quality. I uploaded this crop of the Yukicon image on the right, maybe that helps with the zooming? — Goszei (talk) 19:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
That wasn't quite what I was going for. I think group shots lower in the article would be great, but I think the first photo should be a singular cosplay. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 14:31, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
@Zero Serenity: In my opinion, an image with a group of cosplayers is more in line with reader expectations (MOS:LEADIMAGE), as the first sentence defines "cosplay" as a "performance art", and being on a stage in a group seems to exemplify the conception of cosplay as a subculture/social experience. Also, cosplay is primarily defined from other forms of costuming by its amateur creativity, which is deeply tied with convention events, as opposed to the more recent trends of professional costumes and photoshoots outside of conventions. Another more minor point is variety: the lead says "Favorite sources include anime, cartoons, comic books, manga, television series, and video games", which is a point that can only be represented by a group of cosplayers.
I feel that another problem with the Ciri image (that should be avoided for the lead image) is that without looking at her sword and scar, it's not immediately evident that she is a cosplayer: her clothes and hair are "relatively" normal instead of eye-catching and fantastical.
I personally still favor the Yukicon image (which I think also has great colors and framing), though here is another image I found for consideration. — Goszei (talk) 18:13, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I think because of its unique historicity the photo of Morojo and Forry Ackerman from the first Worldcon still belongs here. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:24, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

For the lead, a group is good as it avoids promoting a single cosplayer. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:16, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
I think the File:Fallout Cosplayer Villa Carrara.jpg is explicative since it shows a Cosplayer involved in a thematic area since the article talks also about the thematic areas. "In different comic fairs, "Thematic Areas" are set up where cosplayers can take photos in an environment that follows that of the game or animation product from which they are taken. Sometimes the cosplayers are part of the area, playing the role of staff with the task of entertaining the other visitors. Some examples are the thematic areas dedicated to Star Wars or to Fallout. The areas are set up by not for profit associations of fans, but in some major fairs it is possible to visit areas set up directly by the developers of the video games or the producers of the anime.". It may be of a lower quality but it sums ups perfectly this lines. --79.44.15.156 (talk) 19:06, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Dunno why it took a year for me to get back to this, but the cropped version is fine for the article. Gonna call this one closed for now. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 14:26, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

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