Talk:Cotton: Fantastic Night Dreams

No evidence of a Famicom version

After looking at both the Japanese wikipedia page on the Cotton series and a Google Japan image search, I can't find any hard evidence that a Famicom version of this particular release exists. Bumm13 (talk) 09:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup + expansion

Did some cleanup. I think the AFD made people over-cite the page, and much of the citations and reviews were just random fan-sites. I've cleaned up them and kept only that qualify as RS. Harizotoh9 (talk) 21:25, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Additionally, I'm a bit confused about the 1993 NA release. I can find no actual NA reviews of the game, only some previews. Gamefan Jan 93 says the game is coming out "this month", and says they would like to review it. Gamefan retrospective from july 1999 even says the game was never released in the USA. However, Mega Fun 1993 review makes reference to a USA review. So I dunno. I'm just finding it strange I can't find a review or direct confirmation it was released, rather than them just planning to release it. Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:33, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

@Harizotoh9: If you're referring to the 1993 NTSC-U release date for the TurboGrafx CD version, that's taken from the back of the CD case. Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I can't find any info on the NTSC-U release. No reviews, and no information on exact release date. Finding NA reviews should be a priority and I'll keep searching. One Youtube vid I saw said it was a very late "TurboDuo" release, thus it was extremely rare, which might explain why it didn't get much attention. Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

In most cases where the game was originally an arcade release, I would agree to use the arcade poster. In this case, I think the arcade poster is so god awful I think we should find something better. The point of the infobox image is to be identifiable. Perhaps the title screen? TarkusAB^talk 00:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC) Actually I think I'm OK with it. TarkusAB^talk 01:01, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

In regards to additional sourcing, the MD Fan and BeepMD sources are brief previews of the arcade game. The most relevant info is that the game was showcased at the trade show "AOU Show 1991". Gamest index lists coverage and that would likely be the most indepth Arcade coverage. The Dengeki PCE review exists, but we don't have a citation so that will need to be tracked down. If you want to go the extra mile, Beep puts out a retrospective arcade magazine called "Extra Mag" and issue 4 in 2017 had Cotton on the front page. It has some kind of profile with Success and might have backstory on the development of the game. Harizotoh9 (talk) 13:02, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

The MDFan and Beep articles may be good sources for gameplay. TarkusAB^talk 13:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Title

The title screen, cover art, and actually render the name like "Fantastic Night Dreams Cotton". No colon, and with "Cotton" last. Consoles + refers to it like this as well, but most other western publications refer to it as Cotton first. Harizotoh9 (talk) 17:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

And Famitsu lists the PCE game as "Cotton", and the PS game as "Cotton Original". For what it's worth, the JP page is just called "Cotton (Game)". I'm thinking that "Fantastic Night Dreams" may be a tagline people mistook for the game's full title. In much the same way that Alundra 2 is often called "Alundra 2: A New Legend Begins (and in fact I just had the page renamed). My first tip-off was that sources can't seem to make up their mind whether to call it "Cotton: Fantastic Night Dreams" or "Fantastic Night Dreams: Cotton". Now, this mistake seems to have been made in the early 90's, and it's stuck for a long time. But I'm not seeing any direct evidence that this is the proper title. The arcade flyer even has "Fantastic Night Dreams" off to the side. If it was the subtitle it would be much more prominent wouldn't it?

Right now I'm leaning towards renaming the page "Cotton (video game". Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

WP:NCDAB says natural disambiguation is preferable to parenthetical disambiguation. So regardless of what the "official" title is, it is the preferred title. TarkusAB^talk 23:09, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

If it was just called "Cotton", then that rule wouldn't apply since it's not a real title, just a tagline that got confused for a sub-title. Success does feature the phrase very prominently on their official Cotton page. Success also has a youtube channel, and they uploaded the game as just "Cotton (arcade version). Also, since success is still around I can literally just ask them and they can settle the matter. Harizotoh9 (talk) 00:19, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

So I just saw a preview vid for Cotton 2, and at no point does the narrator say "Magical Night Dreams". Japanese publications do say the English subtitles for games all the time, like Front Mission Gun Hazard, or Clock Tower: The First Fear (for the PS port). So I think this is more evidence that these games are just called Cotton and Cotton 2.

Confusingly, the big words that accompany the title of the game seem to be just taglines, and part of the logo, but not actually the names of the games. Now, for a game like Hagane: The Final Conflict, it makes sense to use the full subtle to differentiate that page from others. However, Cotton, if I'm right, was never actually called "Fantastic Night Dreams", and it's all a big confusion by westerners that's been repeated for like 25 years. Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:06, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Electric Brain

Is Electric Brain really unreliable? I get that it started as a fanzine, but we're talking issue 35...They have a full staff, a publisher, redistributor, advertisements, regular monthly issues. The magazine's humble beginnings shouldn't permanently relegate it to fanzine status. It's written pretty well too. TarkusAB^talk 12:38, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, the main thing is that I don't think it's quite needed, and it's kind of an edge case. We have enough modern and retrospective sources to cover most everthing. So the answer as to whether it's reliable is "maybe". So I looked this up. Super Play issue 23, page 19 has a profile on GAP and the end of Electric Brain. They says: "Readers may remember Onn Lee's pevious fanzine Electric Brain, which achieved national newstand circulation after being bought out by a company called space city Communications. SCC went into liquidation three issues later...."

So a case could be made for issues 33,34,35 to be reliable since they're published by SCC. The case against is that issues 32-35 functionally look no different than previous issues and those issues also still look rather home made. Also, the magazine published an interview with Miyamoto in one issue, however, what they had done is they translated a Famitsu interview and then never made any attribution as to the source. I consider rather slimy and unprofessional.

Also, 90's Fanzines can be pretty well written and professional, so it's no slag to call them mere "fanzines". While researching sexy Parodius, I came across a photocopied Fanzine called Tokyo Fan that reviewed the game, but decided against using it as a citation. It's pretty well written, but still self-published. Also, the Tokyo Fan people went on to make a proper published magazine called "J-Fan". That is a mag I might end up using as a citation later. Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:14, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Source overview:

• The PCE version got the most amount of reviews, and these can serve as the basis of the article along with the two USGamer retrospecitve articles. Unless there's some major differences between the PCE and other versions that I'm not aware of other than graphics and music.

• The JA Wikipedia page lists three additional JA mag reviews: Dengeki PC Engine, "Gekkan PC Engine" and "Marusho PC Engine", but does not give references for those magazine reviews. I've tagged these on the page.

• Gamest covered the game, and they might have info on background/development. Most useful info is the 1991 Gamest 5th Annual Awards, which gave the game 5 awards. Only one award is listed on the English page. Thankfully, this is all sourced on the JA page, and we can just translate it over.

• For additional JP language sources: Famitsu has a 1 page overview of the arcade game, and MD Fan and Beep MD have very short 1/4 page previews of the game. Mostly in the context of showing it at trade shows. Based on the size, i doubt it says anything super in depth past the basic premise/genre.

• Shooting Gameside has a 10 page retrospective on magical girl shooting games, and devotes 2 pages to this game.
• GameFan has a 1 page 1999 retrospective of the game, which also serves as a review of Cotton Original.
• We have three fairly in-depth retrospective sources: two from USGamer, one from GameFan, and one from SGside.

Missing:

• American reviews and release info. Apparently it was done by TTI (who also published Magical Chase, and may have been by mail. Reviews in EGM, GamePro, etc are absolutely needed, but I haven't found any yet.

• • GameFan mentions TTI in their original review. That's enough to cite them as publisher. TarkusAB^talk 20:52, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

• Dev info. I can't find any kind of interview with any of the devs giving background on the game. The Extra Mag. profile on Success and Cotton may contain this info, as they actually go to Success HQ. In fact, it was this profile that led to the relationship where Beep got to re-release this game. Someone will have to purchase this magazine.

• Teacups. Starting with Cotton Original, they had contests and sold Cotton themed teacups. I can only source for the 2007 mobile release, so I haven't included anything else on the teacups. It's a cute little merchandise and should be included.

Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I am looking for scans of these if anyone has them.

• Dengeki PC Engine
• Famitsu PCE
• Famitsu PS
• Famitsu NGP
• PC Engine Fan
• Video Games PCE Review
• Video Games NGP Review
• Gamers' Republic
• Game Power
• "GAMEST MOOK Vol.112 The Best Game 2 arcade video game of the 26-year history," Vol. 5, No. 4, Shinseishiya, January 17, 1998, 16 - 17 pages
• Gamest Vol 59
• Gamest Vol 61
• Gamest Vol 62
• Extra Mag #4
• Shooting Gameside, vol. 3
• Weekly Famitsu - No. 134 June 28th 1991, pg 178 (arcade preview)

Thanks TarkusAB^talk 20:52, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Gamest Mook vol 112 appears to be a listing of all the awards Gamest has given out over the years, so I don't think the actual print version has any more info than what is posted to the JP Wikipedia (which even quotes the item description).

Shooting Gameside and Extra Mag can be purchased online.

Found an EGM 1 page overview of the game. These 1 page overviews in Famitsu, EGM, etc are likely all saying the same things. Basic overview of the gameplay/plot. Also, I've been having some difficulty finding American sources, to the point where I quetioned whether it was actually released. GameFan and Retro Gamer straight up say it was never released in USA. However, Gamers' Republic 19 says it did get an American release. Harizotoh9 (talk) 20:41, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

In their 1993 review, GameFan wrote "Now if TTI would only bring out SF2 over here, that would make me very happy." Meaning TTI distributed the game in North America. TarkusAB^talk 21:22, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

EGM credits the "manufacturer" to Hudson/T.T.I. So it looks like it was co-published. Harizotoh9 (talk) 21:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

The cover has both TTI and Hudson's logo on it too. Also, looked through all 1993 issues of EGM and didn't find a review, though they gave a 1 page overview of the game. Also, I checked, and the Famitsu PCE page doesn't list a score, so I removed it. They often update pages frequently so eventually it will be listed there. Also, the PC Engine Fan refers to the average score by readers, not the critics. Thus, it shouldn't be in critical scores. I also found a table of contents for an issue of Gekken that lists a 1 page preview of the game.

In regards to Gamest, I don't 100% know how to navigate the index. They list references that are just ads as well as articles. I just added the first three volumes that came up. It lists other coverage too, but I didn't want to make this huge list, listing them all. SuperGamePower previewed Cotton Original in issue 64, but I don't seem them reviewing the game, sadly. Also checked through GamePro and couldn't find a review. Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Found Joypad's Cotton Original review. Like GR they trashed the game. Looked through their 1993 issues, and didn't find a review of the original. However, Issue 22, July-August 1993 is missing an I suspect they reviewed the game that issue. Harizotoh9 (talk) 07:52, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

1989 vs 1991

I've seen a repeat discrepancy between sources on the release date. Some are saying the game was originally released in arcades in 1989, others 1991. Looking for any hard evidence for one release date or the other. TarkusAB^talk 22:25, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

USGamer just made a big, big mistake. A rather sloppy one in fact. Every other modern source says 1991. The Japanese magazines (Famitsu, MD Beep, MD Fan, Gamest) all cover it in 1991, plus have the 1991 copyright. But they don't list an exact date of release.

Now for the month, that's something to look into. Shooting Gameside says 1991-4. Japanese Wikipedia says 1991-3. Some kind of database listing would be needed to confirm the exact month of release date. Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

OK sounds good. The Mega Drive Fan and Beep magazines agree with 1991, likely around ~Q2. KLOV also says 1989. TarkusAB^talk 00:31, 27 May 2019 (UTC)