Talk:Cow tipping/Archive 4

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

COW TIPPING DOES NOT EXIST!

COWS DO NOT SLEEP STANDING UP!! THIS ARTICLE IS A COMPLETE LIE!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wyzz7 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The second sentence of this article says "In reality cows do not sleep standing up." --JayHenry (talk) 00:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Although cows do not generally sleep standing up, as with almost any animal, they are able to sleep standing up. Eric Wester (talk · contribs · email) 01:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Wrong Eric, cows can not sleep standing up. Also, 'as with almost any animal'? You may need to look into this a bit, because that is also incorrect. RTShadow (talk) 05:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is a hoax, please emphasize this in the article.

"Cow tipping" is impossible; a hoax; something people in the country (like me) tell dumb city people who believe anything. However, it has gotten out of hand, and please make that clear in the article. All that BS regarding "abuse" lends credibility to the non-occurrence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.133.6.197 (talk) 11:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


Thoes dumb city people are the ones letting you lead the life you live. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.199.93.245 (talk) 13:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Eric that is completely wrong. Cows do not sleep standing up, they can't, they do not lock their knees therefore if they were to fall asleep they would fall down. Please don't post up speculation as fact. RTShadow (talk) 12:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I tip my cow, er, um, HAT to ya

I must first say that this article is one of the most surprising, and coolest, articles I've come across on Wikipedia yet. My two cents on this issue is that I used to help out on my grandfather's farm, where he raised cattle amongst other things, and I never saw a cow sleep standing up. So, if one were to be "tipped," I would say it would have to be when they were awake, and judging by how cows generally react to humans, I can't see that it would be easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.242.223 (talk) 02:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


Cows do sleep standing up. and also eat in there sleep which even more werid. How do i know this you ask, My mates got a bar over one of his cow sheds. Many a time have we watch them a stupid at o clock in the morning. also i've seen them when going off roading and looking for for rabits/deer eating standing up. It's also possible to push them over when there asleep but it is diffcult to creep up on them when asleep. as when you normaly try this your normal drunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simon123abc (talk • contribs) 18:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It's extremely rare for a cow to sleep standing up. I helped at farms for many years. Royalbroil 03:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It isn't just rare, it never happens. RTShadow (talk) 12:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

How could anyone have thought about deleting this article?

This article is very useful. Working as a translator, I've seen cow tipping mentioned about a half-dozen times and it was never in a very contextualized way. No dictionary that I know of explains what cow tipping is, so I've actually searched it purposefully on Wikipedia and found this article. What makes Wikipedia so wonderfully useful is exactly the amount of explanations it has about things you won't find explained anywhere else on or off the Net. So congratulations to whoever thought of creating this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.34.173.71 (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Its being in the list of lamest edit wars, prehaps. 203.11.71.124 (talk) 07:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

(email correspondence)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cow_tipping/Archive2#.22e-mail.22


Wilson, Jerry D. and Cecilia A. Hernandez. Physics Laboratory Experiments. Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Company, 2005.

Whilst this is a believable calculation - the data fed into it is suspect. 6 m/s is a rather fast running speed. Olympic sprinters manage around 9m/sec - but that's on a smooth running track with a racing start and specialised shoes, etc - not a couple of untrained kids in a cowpat-littered uneven field in the dark! If you back your speed down to a more reasonable 4 or even 5 m/s, the conclusion becomes that two humans cannot tip a cow. 66.137.234.217 15:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Richard Benedict Replies

Cows in the field that are tipped are usually beef feeder cattle weighing between 400 to 700 pounds not 1500 pounds as was stated in the referenced article (which used a suspiciously high weight for a cow that was to be tipped as well as a center of gravity that was suspiciously low). Using 750 pounds as a more realistic weight of the animal, (leaving the center of gravity in the same low position) the runners would only have to run at (13.4/2) or 6.7 mph (3m/s) to tip the animal. Thereby making the activity quite possible.


The real significance of this article however is not in the tipping or not tipping the cow but in the origin of the term "Urban Legend."

I propose that the term "Urban Legend" refer to a consensus of intellectuals that reside in an "Urban" environment who claim to know phenomena do not exist even though it can be demonstrated by calculation and experiment to exist in reality. The term "Urban Legend" will now mean "Ignoring truth that is obtainable to maintain an illusion that is ascetically attractive or politically correct but not true." In short "to be blind to truth".

Richard Benedict November 19, 2007

belief that cow tipping is fatal

I just wanted to mention that people I've met have believed that once tipped, a cow will not be able to get back up again, either because its legs or broken or just because it is too heavy to lift itself. I believed that too until I came here and found that cow tipping probably doesnt even exist. Haplolology Talk/Contributions 10:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought that was the whole point of cow tipping. If she's just going to get up again, why bother? To hurt the cow's feelings? Mcavic (talk) 16:04, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

To humiliate the poor cow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.3.14.151 (talk) 22:43, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Why is cow tipping notable?

Wikipedia notability guidelines require articles to demonstrate that they are notable, yet the article in its current state only refers to varied-level references to its status as an urban myth propagated by hearsay. However, the popular recognition of the cow-tipping concept has been heavily influenced by at least a handful of seriously prominent allusions in popular fiction.

None of this is noted by the article, because of a hasty decision (now archived) to delete the whole of the "In popular culture" section. I propose that a section is reintroduced, either titled "In popular culture" as before, or perhaps "In fiction" to make clear that the listed references are merely contributors to the popularity of the myth. I suggest the section starts with the first, second and fourth entries on the list which I previously added, because these show that cow tipping has been (in order):

  • Parodied by a top-ten grossing animated film in a way that shows that the directors expects the audience to recognise the allusion
  • The main plot motivation of a whole feature film published by Paramount Pictures, who need no introduction, and directly depicted in its main trailer
  • The subject and name of an entire episode of a well-known animated television series (which endured 7 seasons and a feature film)

Each of these references is already mentioned in the articles on the source, and already link back to this article. You might also want to see the longer removed list which I agree tends to add little in the way of relevance or notability, and the whole of my original comment on the discussion which never got answered. BigBlueFish (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that mention of the urban legend in the Montreal Gazette and the Times Online doesn't satisfy notability, so we need to add a section noting every cartoon episode in which it appeared? Seems superfluous. --ZimZalaBim talk 03:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Steady on; I am advocating noting just three significantly notable depictions of cow tipping in popular fiction, not "every cartoon episode". It seems clear to me that each reference does a lot more to demonstrate the notability than a couple of light relief articles buried away in the pack pages of a newspaper, which are primarily concerned with whether the myth can be executed in real life. A columnist is at liberty to share with his readers a myth that he happens to have heard of. It doesn't show that people have hypothesised, even in fiction, that the practice exists. Such references also add the same kind of value of knowledge to the subject as, say, List of fictional cats, which, at the risk of breaking WP:WAX, I would say has a fairly accepted role. BigBlueFish (talk) 16:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with BigBlueFish, this myth is notable because of its previlance in popular culture. Aside from the three mentioned references, one of the most remembered instances of cow tipping was in the movie Heathers. If a "In Popular Culture" section is re-added, this reference should be included. smithd 01:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Wrong

The current article on cow tipping is entirely wrong. Cow tipping occurs during the process of milking a cow. Cows love the warmth of a human body and during the milking process will shift their weight onto the milker to gain the comfort of their warmth. Cow tipping is a practice engaged in by the milker in which he or she will extend an elbow into the cow's side causing mild discomfort which in turn causes the animal to give up its posture of leaning on the milker. Properly done it is not abusive to the animal. 65.86.187.146 (talk) 15:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Then that's an alternate definition of cow tipping. That doesn't make the article wrong, although it would be worth adding to the article. Mcavic (talk) 16:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk page semi-protected

As this talk page has been blanked by unregistered users 5 times in half an hour, and the user concerned is evading blocks, I have semi-protected it for 24 hours. Hut 8.5 20:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Cow-tipping

I always thought it was like snip hunting. A bunch of drunks take an unsuspecting bar mate out to tip cows, but when everybody is supposed to push very hard, all but the one unknowing drunk run away, leaving the one innocent pushing on the cow ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.189.211 (talk) 23:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

lead image

do you really think someone would try to tip a cow that had horns like that? it looks like it would maul you ! –xeno (talk) 04:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

And why is it so important that we change the image in teh first place? There's no WP:Image use diversity policy, so why not just keep well enough alone and stick with the original image. --ZimZalaBim talk 19:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I think the new image is pretty good. The last image, that cow was looking right at us. Now this cow is kind of unsuspecting. A sleeping cow would be even better. –xeno (talk) 19:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
ZimZalaBim: we don't have to have a pre-existing policy to have an idea. Having a single image used in many articles (and a hundred places total, including userspace) is boring and repetitive. No one wants to see ten articles about cattle use the same image, it's aesthetic stupidity. Diversity is healthy in illustrations, and Commons has got a nice array of cattle images to choose from. Feel free to pick a different one if you don't like my choice (Xenocidic I saw a really great image of a cow facing the camera, but it had horns and you seem to object to horns), but the same old thing just ain't cuttin' it from my perspective. Think of the reader here. Steven Walling (talk) 20:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I'll admit, I've never been cow-tipping but a cow with horns doesn't seem like a very safe thing to (attempt to) tip ;> Oh, and I think it's better for an image where the cow isn't looking, because you can't sneak up on something that's looking at you. So, support your most recent image. –xeno (talk) 20:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
here's a free "sleeping cow" photo, if you prefer. this image is also pretty funny, if you want to go with the whole humor theme of the article. Steven Walling (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The first one is not tippable though. Perhaps we should copy this discussion onto the article talk page? The second one is pretty good if we forgive that he's looking at the camera. –xeno (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

[Copied from my user talk per suggestion] Steven Walling (talk) 21:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with the current image, no need to change it, certainly no need to edit-war up to 3RR to change it without a consensus to do so. - Merzbow (talk) 23:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
the new holstein (eating grass) is at least unsuspecting. the original holstein is looking right at the camera, how are you going to sneak up on it for some good tipping? –xeno (talk) 23:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. Using the same image in cow articles over and over again is just plain dumb. It's not that great of an image, there are others equally good that aren't repetitious. Steven Walling (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Image:You rude cow!.jpg is a great image with the cow looking into the page. Let's go with that. --JayHenry (talk) 23:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wild Cows

"You never know what a wild cow's defenses are. They may spit blood, or even venemous toxins into your eyes in order to disable you. Once disabled, they may try to eat your internal organs."

The author seems to think that the rare wild cow is capable of venom production as well as the ability to expel oxygen-filled precious blood on que. I've grown up around cows all my life and I cant say ive ever met a feral cow, but I have been pissed on by a domesticated one. Other than hooves, horns and... well... piss, I cant imagine too many other defensive mechanisms for our bovine brethren... 72.12.72.122 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC).

All kidding aside, Hawaii has an interesting history of feral cows, and the cows killed a number of people back in the day. The book, Rough Riders: Hawaii's Paniolo and Their Stories (2006) discusses the problem, as do a few others. Viriditas (talk) 14:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

This article made my day fellas! Thanks for making/maintaining it :) ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 13:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Proof that cows sometimes sleep standing up

It is not how they usually sleep at night, but sometimes they sleep standing up for short periods of time. To everyone who says cow tipping is not possible, have you tried it?

Is sleep fundamentally different between mammalian species? Irene Tobler Institute of Pharmacology, University of Zürich, Winterthurerstrasse 190, 8057, Zürich, Switzerland

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYP-4007D9H-5&_user=1942757&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=949860702&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000055513&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=1942757&md5=70d17113899ce82bae7ae90eee0c3694

"On the other hand these species can sleep for short periods in a standing position."

If you do not have access to Science Direct, you can find the article elsewhere on Google. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Module2 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

NonScience

Though I do not intend to support the notion that cow tipping is actually undertaken, it is discouraging to see articles claiming scientific calculations to debunk it.

1) It is not at all difficult to sneak up on a cow, sleeping or awake, try it, they're all over the place. 2) It is not all that difficult to actually knock a cow over - I have done so with sick animals on a range to apply vaccinations. Yes, they were sick, but had as much weight & balance as would an unsuspecting healthy animal.

Yes they do lay down to sleep, though can often stand drowsily.

If you want to provide a counter arguement to something unfounded, your rationalle should be proven, or if you're going to just make it up it should at least be realistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.193.111.131 (talk) 16:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

You may argue, but does it really matter in the end?

People may have tipped cows, or they may not have. I have no doubt that some have at least tried. Why does this activity of paltry importance inspire such fastidious editing? Can we not leave Cow Tipping alone for a while but instead move on to more important things? Surely each and every one of you could be doing something much more meaningful than editing that increasingly trivial page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 57.486.411.59 (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Possible other historical source of cow tipping

Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose#History - I immediately thought of this passage by Caesar, when I heard of cow tipping... Yes, you have to wait for a "moose" to lean against a (prepared) tree to topple over, but the rest of the legend is very similar. Unfortunately the cow tipping page is protected, but afterwards maybe this source can also be included or the article can even be expanded to a general "animal tipping" article! ;-) 84.119.52.195 (talk) 12:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Going cow tipping

So cows may or may not ever have actually been tipped. However, I do believe there is such an activity as going cow tipping whereby people attempt to tip cows. This activity might reasonably be referred to as "cow tipping" even if it consists mostly of running around chasing and being chased by cows and none are actually successfully tipped. You can see videos of this on teh intarwebs, however, I shall leave this article alone until I should find decent sources on the matter. —Ashley Y 18:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

People do cow tip, a member of my family has cow tipped with others. You drive up next to one with your car, and then bump it over. It's a lot harder to do with your bare hands.AerobicFox (talk) 06:53, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Science of Cow Tipping sub note:

From the article: "A study led by Margo Lillie, a doctor of zoology at the University of British Columbia, concludes that cow tipping by a single person is impossible. "

It should be noted that ANY "study" or scientific research is, like Wikipedia its self, not to be taken as 100% law because, after all, scientist still can't explain how a bumble bee can fly and say it's "scientifically" impossible for a bumble bee to fly when in fact they do. One can, acceptably, conclude therefor that Cow Tipping is in fact plausible no matter how many nor how in depth any "scientific study" may be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.111.246.45 (talk) 19:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Bumble bee#Flight. Hut 8.5 21:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

What's the fuss about?

Cow tipping is possible, whether the cow is asleep or not doesn't matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.121.94 (talk) 19:55, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

A friend staying with me right now used to go cow tipping with some other people when he was in Merced. I don't know why people are saying it is impossible.AerobicFox (talk) 23:44, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Note: this is relevant to the article, and really people you think cow tipping doesn't exist? I can assure you it does.AerobicFox (talk) 01:53, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Just thought I'd mention that tipping a cow over which is standing on a hill is far easier than tipping one over standing in a flat field like these studies presume the cow to be. Although tipping a cow down a hill could seriously harm/and or kill it.AerobicFox (talk) 16:55, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Rural citizens without alternative entertainment?

I thought it was normally attributed to frat boys, that being widely seen as the sort of group that routinely assembles large enough numbers to be plausible and does things that are at least as foolish. It would be nice to find some actual scholarship about the trope, instead of a handful of fluff pieces based on at most a calculation. I note that in the Straight Dope piece, the people alleged to have done it were college students. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

LOL, and such are the things of which urban legends are made Montanabw(talk) 19:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Cow dipping

Is it possible that the term was derived (bowlderized) from 'Cow dipping' (the act of driving bovines through an acid bath to protect them from infeastation by vermin such as mites) see also Sheep dip and that someone then humourously invented the activity to match the new term?Sejtam (talk) 16:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Sleeping cows

Is the implication that people think cows are most easily tipped at night, because they sleep standing up? Or is it just that cow-tipping happens at night because that's when people are drunk? I explicitly added a mention of sleep to the article because the article just had the odd non sequitur of "people think cattle are slow moving and weak legged, but they actually only doze that way", but User:Montanabw cut that detail when paraphrasing it. --McGeddon (talk) 08:47, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I reverted and rephrased after checking the source; the source says "doze" and it is best not to copy word for word. In short, unlike horses, cows don't sleep standing up, they rest, may fall into a very light stage of sleep, but I think it's best to say that cow-tipping is a myth and yes, anyone who thinks otherwise, well, alcohol is undoubtably involved... Montanabw(talk) 16:42, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Sure, the paraphrasing is fine. I was just asking if you thought it was wrong of me to suggest that people are pushing cows over because the cows are "asleep standing up"; it's a non sequitur to say that "people think it's easy to tip a cow over because cows are slow and dim-witted and weak-legged, but actually cows only sleep lightly when standing up".
It looks like at least one other source defines cow-tipping as pushing over a "sleeping cow", so I'll add back my edit with a source. --McGeddon (talk) 17:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
So long as we understand that cows don't really sleep standing up... I need to find anatomical source to explain sleep in cows. (OH NO! Another joke article that has to go GA!). Montanabw(talk) 15:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Dead cows

An appreciated rewrite from User:Me and seems to have introduced to the article the idea that people think a tipped cow might die, but I can't see this in either of the two sources which are actually about cow tipping. Where did this come from? --McGeddon (talk) 22:19, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

It's definitely part of the urban legend as I've heard it (supposedly something to do with the layout of their stomachs), but you're entirely correct that it's not in the cited sources. I'll see if I can find one, and remove the claim if not. —me_and 09:54, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
The clearest source I can find is a Cow Tipping article on another wiki: "Cow tipping is supposedly fatal to the cow upon which this cruel activity is rendered, as the cow's internal organs are not designed to withstand the sudden impact of a sideways fall". Nothing even vaguely resembling a reliable source, however, so I'll rewrite accordingly. Thanks for pointing it out! —me_and 11:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I have reverted all changes. Just for starters, these edits removed sourced material, and you can't use one wiki as a source for another. While I welcome additions and improvements to articles on my watchlist (Jackalope is now a Good Article, thanks to the work of Finetooth, to give one example), I suggest that changes need to be discussed and worked out through consensus and collaboration. Montanabw(talk) 00:47, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
@Montanabw: Your revert states it was for "mass undiscussed changes"; what's wrong with mass undiscussed changes? Wikipedia encourages editors to be bold and improve things where they see fit, and while I'm happy to discuss problems with the changes I made (as I did above), reverting all my changes because I didn't discuss them first seems out of hand.
What sourced material do you think I removed? The two bits I'm aware of removing are one that refers to a 2005 "study" which, if you check the sources, wasn't a study at all so much as a couple of people doing some basic calculations (which were then republished by a lot of other newspapers many of which were unnecessarily cited separately), backed up by a WP:SELFPUB few people doing similar calculations, plus some content about Paris' bestiary which doesn't match the cited source and which I replaced with similar information that does.
You also say I used a wiki as a source; where do you think I did this? The above discussion has McGeddon rightfully pointing out that I'd made an unsourced assertion, which I the removed because the only source I could find was a wiki.
—me_and 14:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Ah, okay, I did also remove the mention of cow-tipping being a rural stereotype, as I thought it wasn't at the cited source, when, having just checked, it was not at the cited link but was present if you clicked through to the next page. —me_and 14:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
We can discuss these specific changes, but please stop removing references. Per WP:BRD, the standard is to be bold, but then if you get reverted, discuss. So we are. I am trying to incorporate in what is helpful and useful to improve the article. I am also intrigued by the idea of creating a small section explaining how cattle CAN be laid down ( or "cast" ) for veterinary care and such. I realized that this article gets hit by vandals a lot (for obvious reasons), and that a good way to shut that down is to bring it up to WP:GA status; ever since we did that with the Jackalope article, vandalism has dropped significantly. If you haven't done a GA before, it's kind of fun, if a bit of a gauntlet during the review process. Montanabw(talk) 18:56, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Felonious

This business and law journal says that cow tipping is a felony in some states [1]. It's hard to see it in context though because only a snippet view is offered. Brianhe (talk) 09:10, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Most of those are satire, even in a law journal.The snippet context I saw includes the disclaimer, "I am told..." Absent an actual code citation, let's not go there. Montanabw(talk) 18:52, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
As I suspected. Aren't myths/urban legends surrounding this pretty much the meat of the notable content though? By the way I came here to participate in the GA process if it gets going. – Brianhe (talk) 11:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

As a metaphor

Sources using "cow tipping" as a metaphor in various endeavors:

Urban cow tipping

A practice in several cities of tipping over small cars while parked

This and the metaphor suggestion above are good ideas. I've started a new section, "In popular culture" for stuff like this. "Tipping sacred cows" is a kind of double metaphor. I wonder if any author has wandered into even deeper verbal thickets in which none of the main words can be taken literally, maybe something like "Tipping Sacred Purple Cows at the Crack of Dawn"? There must be other kinds of stuff as well. Maybe there's a bar in Wales called the "Tippling Cow"? Is there a computer game called "Cow Tipping"? There's a Beavis and Butt-Head episode for sure; the cow crushes Beavis. Finetooth (talk) 20:26, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
SCOMN! (Snorted coffee out my nose!) The potential here is enormous, though we should examine WP:TRIVIA to be sure not to overdo it. Montanabw(talk) 11:06, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Possible source

Searching JSTOR this morning, I found a review in The Quarterly Review of Biology about this book: Glimpses of Creatures in Their Physical Worlds. By Steven Vogel. Princeton (New Jersey): Princeton University Press. $75.00 (hardcover); $35.00 (paper). xiii + 302 p. + 8 pl.; ill.; index. ISBN: 978‐0‐691‐13806‐0 (hc); 978‐0‐691‐13807‐7 (pb). 2009. The book, says the review, is an introduction to comparative biomechanics. The last sentence of the review says, "Plus, with a discussion that ranges from projectile defecation in caterpillars to a mathematical refutation of cow tipping, it is also a very fun read." My library doesn't have a copy, but it's usually possible to find anything that's in print. Finetooth (talk) 21:10, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I requested the Vogel book today through interlibrary loan via my local library. Finetooth (talk) 03:27, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for sticking with it. Academic sources are always good. - Brianhe.public (talk) 05:11, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Lede image

I replaced the lede image File:Cow lying on side.jpg a few weeks ago, as the cow in question (lying completely flat with its eyes not visible) looked a little on the dead side, and not an entirely convincing illustration of how lying-down cows are fine and can stand up whenever they like. I went with File:Cow lying on side in field.jpg instead, a cow who clearly seems more comfortable and whose head is raised.

User:Montanabw put the old image back explaining in edit summary that "Actually, the totally sacked-out cow was kind of the point.", but I'm not sure I follow. Aren't we trying to illustrate that cows are able to lie comfortably on their sides, here? --McGeddon (talk) 11:25, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Given that we have no photos labeled, "people trying and failing to tip over a cow," the next-best option is to show a cow as tipped over as possible. Finetooth may want to comment here too. The other cow certainly looks friendly enough, but I suppose the long-term solution might be a sequence of photos showing cows in various stages of getting back to their feet -- that way we could use all images. Montanabw(talk) 23:08, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
No strong opinion from me. The Pixabay cow is a handsome creature, for sure. I wish we could find more to say about cow-tipping, although I think it would be possible to find room in the existing article for both images. Might take a bit of juggling with the layout. Want me to give it a try? Finetooth (talk) 00:03, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
We could have a photo of an even more tipped-over and definitely-dead cow here, but it seems confusing to be illustrating an impossible point ("this is what a cow might look like if you tipped it over, but tipping it over is impossible") with a photo where something else has happened. The "healthy cow lying on its side is not immobilized" caption seems a more encyclopedic point to make, and the second picture is a much better illustration of that. --McGeddon (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Wild cow milking... or people-tipp(le)ing?
What we really need is someone to photograph an attempt. We do have wild cow milking, but there, it's the people who get tipped over (as beer is often involved...)! (Finetooth, if you can find a way to incorporate both images, go for it. Montanabw(talk) 02:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
As noted above in the "possible source" section, I've asked my library to send me a copy of the Vogel book. I'm hoping there will be enough new stuff that I can expand the Wikipedia text and install a second image easily. The Pixabay cow looks right, so it would be better to position it on the left side of the page, looking in. Might be a week or two until the Vogel book arrives. My library has to borrow it from another library. I'll see if I can figure out a temporary fix in the meantime. Finetooth (talk) 02:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I also prefer McGeddon's picture of the cow lying on its side with head raised. I support restoring it. In my opinion that is the best image I have seen for the lead in the 10 years I've been watching this article. I did have a fondness for the original caption "An unsuspecting potential victim" but I also agree that the current caption is more encyclopedic. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I think one of the problems I had with the newer image was the tight crop, the image seems out of proportion (and edges are chopped off a wee bit), but it's not a moral issue. Perhaps a sequence of flat to standing would be amusing. Heh, we have many images to choose from. Montanabw(talk) 05:50, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I re-added the Pixabay cow just now. I have no strong opinions about which image(s) to use. I don't usually recommend galleries, but since this is a semi-comic page, a gallery of cows might be fun. Finetooth (talk) 15:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I'd skimmed that category when originally looking for a replacement image, but none of the images (that I could see) showed a single cow clearly lying on one side with all of its legs pointing sideways - as it might land if somebody had managed to push it over. I agree that the tight cropping isn't ideal. --McGeddon (talk) 16:10, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
That image of the dead cow from Flickr (or wherever it was) does illustrate the way a carcass will begin to bloat and roll - one of the origins of the term "belly up" (though applicable to fish also). I do think it's fun to figure out a way to write these articles in encyclopedic style and still have the reader laugh until they cry. (We did have fun doing so at jackalope). I'm up for whatever works. Montanabw(talk) 21:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

GA?

The Vogel book arrived, and I added a paragraph that summarizes what Vogel has to say about cow tipping. In the process, I removed a two-people-can-theoretically-do-it claim from our article that was supported only by a personal page, not an RS. Do you think the article might now be ready for a run at GA? Finetooth (talk) 02:15, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I'd love to help get this to GA. Brianhe (talk) 02:28, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm in. Ya gotta love the idea of this being on the main page for a DYK! Montanabw(talk) 20:02, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Wondering if the dead cow image is too tacky. I might upload it to commons, as its licensing appears to be OK. We could add it lower in the article, distinguishing from the sacked-out-but-alive cow that leads the article. (Hmmm... cows in my neighborhood, perhaps should try to shoot some that are getting to their feet if I can quietly get to laying down ones with my cheapo camera before they rise... cattle are very alert actually). Montanabw(talk) 20:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Speaking of RS

Some stuff:

My thinking is that we need to talk a little about how cattle sleep, that they lay down a lot in part because they often rest while digesting food, and also we could talk about how to actually throw a cow when needed. Montanabw(talk) 04:55, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

In Canada

On a hunch I looked for some sources from Western Canada and found the following. It might help to give the article a bit broader perspective than just the U.S. Brianhe (talk) 02:43, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

      • Yes, if you can find reliable sources, go for it. I also think we should fix the apparent internal inconsistency about how cows sleep. I think it's just a matter of using "doze" or "rest" instead of "sleep", if the RSs don't support "sleep" for standing cows. Also, I removed one citation to a personal web page (not a reliable source), and I think there are still one or two unreliable ones. I haven't checked them all closely. Finetooth (talk) 02:14, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Incorporated two CAN sources listed above. - Brianhe (talk) 08:27, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

"self-tipping"

Saw you added "There is at least one documented case of "real-life cow tipping" where a pregnant cow rolled over into a gully and became trapped in an inverted state until rescued by volunteer fire fighters." That actually is really common... sheep, cattle, horses all can fall into ditches and gullies, either by slipping and falling or by accidentally rolling over in the wrong direction. I actually have participated personally in pulling two horses out of irrigation ditches. I'd suggest we rephrase this bit as more of a "something that can happen" rather than a rare thing. See how I copyedit and if you want to tweak or discuss further, go for it. Montanabw(talk) 22:33, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Ready?

@Brianhe:/@Brianhe.public:, @Finetooth:: Take a peek, think it's ready for GAN? Anyone else watching this page, please feel free to weigh in also. Montanabw(talk) 03:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it's time to hear from a third party reviewer. I've looked at this too much to see the problems any more. - Brianhe (talk) 03:02, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
I think it's about ready. I did a bunch of little stuff today, as you both saw. I'm sure to have missed a few things, but I'm cross-eyed, and I have to stop for a while. If either of you wants to nominate, that would be great. Finetooth (talk) 01:29, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
We're all cross-eyed! (or tipped...). I'll nominate it today. Thanks everyone and here's hoping for a reviewer with a good sense of humor! Montanabw(talk) 18:52, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
Yay! Finetooth (talk) 03:21, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Cow tipping/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Atsme (talk · contribs) 14:52, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

I reviewed this article, and found that it was so well-written, it actually could have been nominated as featured article.

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
2c. it contains no original research.
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
7. Overall assessment. Very impressive and clearly an FA candidate.
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