Talk:DJ Kool Herc

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2019 and 17 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Oceancomediscover.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Mythical figure

I honestly must raise some points here. First of all, at the end of the 1980's, Herc was a mythical figure. He was almost never (if ever) recounted in clearly stated first-hand accounts by anyone, and no one seemed to know who, where, or even IF he was. Then a whole wave of people started appearing with first hand stories of their "homey" Herc (reconstructing much?) Now all the sudden he's a real person and all the sources for his identity are dubious "Bio's" and self-serving business partnerships. I'm sorry but I'm not going to buy this that easily. I really want to see some substantiated and objective sourcing on this matter. As it stands, the Wikipedia is in danger of creating an perpetuating mythology and I advise some experts (which I am admittedly not) to take this page to task and make sure it's factually represented. If Herc is really Herc, then the story is gravely lacking and we are doing his accomplishments no favors with a sub-par biography of a hugely influential (and controversial) figure. I hope someone else out there feels the same and comes their senses about this one.--207.69.138.13 20:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What is dubious about the biographies cited in this article? Feel free to consult the other sources listed in the article or to find sources crediting another or other DJs with originating break-beat DJing. Hyacinth 08:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also see http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Kool_DJ_Herc, which has a not too positive quote which we could add to the article, and it'd be easy to cite as the source is already used in this article. Hyacinth 09:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

In the first edition of Toop's early book on hip hop, Rap Attack—which was 1985, I believe—Grandmaster Flash and particularly Afrika Bambaataa were scrupulous in giving credit to Herc as the originator of this form of DJing, and therefore their direct antecedent (with Toop evincing mild surprise that they should so carefully do so, given the competitive nature of hip hop generally). And in fact, Bambaataa had already explained this to Steven Hager for Hager's 1982 piece in the Village Voice, "Afrika Bambaataa's Hip-Hop". Before that, no one had bothered to ask. 86.44.30.16 (talk) 00:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

the 1984 bbc documentary "beat this a hiphop history" seems to think he is real. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.47.183 (talk) 21:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources?

this needs bringing into line with the wikipedia way of doing things. bracketed phrases such as '(Chang 1995)' are not clear. what does this refer too? is it a reference to a source? they either need changing to the format wikipedia uses or deleting completely Inzy 19:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested Move - Can we just get the name right?

This article has been renamed from Kool DJ Herc to DJ Kool Herc as the result of a move request.

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was - consensus to move. Keith D (talk) 22:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It's DJ Kool Herc, not Kool DJ Herc.KD Tries Again (talk) 15:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)KD Tries Again

I fully agree and probably should have dealt with this before. We could just move this to Kool Herc, but perhaps DJ Kool Herc would be better. The latter though requires an admin, I believe, since there is a page history. I'll request a move at the requested moves page.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually both are used. Toop calls him Kool DJ Herc throughout Rap Attack, 3rd. ed., London: Serpent's Tail, 2000 (p. 18., p. 39, p. 60 etc.) as does Shapiro in Rough Guide to Hip Hop, 2nd. ed., London: Rough Guides, 2005 (p. 99, p.212–213). The best solution is to use Kool DJ Herc, DJ Kool Herc and Kool Herc all in the lead. 86.44.23.66 (talk) 18:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

We can mention all versions in the lead as you say, but we still have to call the article one thing or another. I think DJ Kool Herc makes the most sense. As I mentioned in the page move request, Herc wrote the introduction to Jeff Chang's Can't Stop Won't Stop (2005). As you can see from the book cover he used the name "DJ Kool Herc", so I think it makes sense to go with that over what Toop said. Also, "DJ Kool Herc" gets 77,000 Google hits wheras "Kool DJ Herc" gets 21,000. Thus it seems to be both the name that Herc prefers and the one that is more commonly used. I would also be fine with "Kool Herc" without mentioning DJ in the article name at all. It's actually likely that he is most often known simply as Kool Herc.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It is extremely likely that Kool DJ Herc is the name he went under in the seventies, and at some point (certainly by 1999's Channel 4 doc. The Hip Hop Years) updated it to the more modern sounding version. I say extremely likely based on the facts that Toop's original book was pioneering (1984, in fact) and considered exemplary on hip hop's early years, and that other early DJs followed this usage, such as Kool DJ A.J., advertised on a flyer from 1980 reprinted in ego trip's Book of Rap Lists (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1999) (p. 20). So it's imperative that all names are included, and there's a good case for leaving the title as is, based on historical connection (just as there is for changing the title, based on Herc's current naming of himself. Neither are wrong, per se.) 86.44.23.66 (talk) 19:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm almost positive that you're right about that, i.e. that he was Kool DJ Herc back in the day and switched it later. Since we are forced to choose though I think DJ Kool Herc makes more sense per WP:COMMONNAME. That guideline says "use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." Part of the rationale for that is that "we want to maximize the likelihood of being listed in external search engines, thereby attracting more people to Wikipedia." Since DJ Kool Herc gets more Google hits (and since it is now the name he seems to prefer) it seems like the better choice to me.

Incidentally, I've been interested for awhile in putting in some serious work on this article and trying to take it to Good or Featured article status - this current article is woefully inadequate - however I can't get to it until this summer at the earliest. You seem to know quite a bit about the topic, so maybe you would be interested in helping with that?--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 20:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'd be happy to. Some things are well documented. Some things, as we have seen, are not. It's amazing to me that this culture existed for ten years before anyone wrote seriously about it. It's like the Bronx didn't exist if you didn't live there. Like I said, either title is fine with me. I'd be a little sad to see the original and historic name (if such it be) depreciated, but life continues. ;) 86.44.23.66 (talk) 21:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, I actually teach a course at a college in the Bronx on post-WWII urban history viewed in part through the lens of hip-hop music and culture and we talk about Herc at some length so it only seems right to work on the article at some point (it is amazing how long it took for serious work on the origins of hip-hop to come out - Herc's name was practically on the verge of being lost to history). Let me know if you set up an account and I'll drop you a note on your talk page if and when I start trying to re-work this, or else you can just check back here (I imagine your IP address changes so I don't think I could contact you that way). Obviously feel free to do some stuff on your own in the interim.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 22:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think there is basically a consensus for a move. I'm hoping that an admin who wanders over here from the requested page moves page can take care of that - the alternative title has a page history beyond a mere redirect.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Support move to DJ Kool Herc with optional Kool Herc and Kool DJ Herc mentioned in lead somewhere as alternate naming. --DerRichter (talk) 18:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

add

Please add the title that is most credited to Herc the 'father of Hip hop' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 22:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

question

Does "hip hop music" always mean the same thing as "rap music?" Does rap music contain some speaking and some singing, or just all speaking? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skysong263 (talk • contribs) 05:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The ****** Twins

That looks like vandalism to me. 68.225.171.64 (talk) 04:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not vandalism. Kool Herc's dancers were Keith & Kevin, a.k.a. The Nigger Twins Bxdale83 (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Origin?

Shouldn't this be Bronx, NY rather than Kingston, Jamaica? He didn't begin DJing until he was in the Bronx. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.156.100 (talk) 03:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

back-to-school parties?

I'm guessing afterschool parties is what's meant, though perhaps Herc was a champion of education? Gimelgort (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

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Should There Be Clarifying Speech at Creation of HipHop

I was asked to come here to discuss a well documented and sourced fact about by a reporter/writer/researcher at the Daily News which clarifies Herc being only popularized as the creator but not actually being the creator, in order that the true story of hip hop be told. Here is the link at the Daily News

Now, this isn’t new news so would the addition of something like “Herc is popularized as the Father of Hip Hop although several before and after him had a role in creating Hip Hop.”

This statement is far more accurate, especially since several of the other creators before Herc’s party and who he learned from are still alive, who had a hand in him and other parties before him as stated in the news article that were hip hop parties.

Just an additional note that Kool Herc stated this himself several times, even to the Schomberg Center on camera, that it started in 1970 and only hit the top and exploded like an earthquake in 1973. 

Right now, the way it’s written is popularized fiction or legend instead of factual journalism just to make the distinction. WayMaQueen (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The available sources are in contradiction to each other. Many name Herc and his sister as Cindy as the progenitors of hip hop culture,[1][2][3][4][5][6] while a very few sources acknowledge that other musicians were doing similar things around the same time, diluting the idea that Herc and Cindy were first. So how do we present the material in proportion? I think the few sources talking about other artists should be presented in the article body, naming each one per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, treating each one like a contradictory viewpoint. Binksternet (talk) 15:53, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

From research it’s not a contradiction. Herc himself stated hip hop was around in 1970 but it was underground. This doesn’t detract from Herc at all. It only correctly adds the other creators that were throwing hip hop parties as well before Herc was an adult. Herc,Coke la Rock, Kool DJ Dee and others added their own “creations” and skills to Hip hop, and even the nameless before Herc as it was underground. Herc repeatedly says this.. that it was underground and that’s where he learned it. Again he is popularly known as the Father but as the definition explains when someone is popularly known as Father of something, it doesn’t mean he or she created it. Hip Hop has several creators at its start, even dating back to Pigmeat, gangsters like Black Spades and more. Herc stated this too as well. It’s a popular name for Herc but no one man could ever create Hip Hop. I even remember it. It was several and not at a back to school jam. Take care tho. Just trying to add facts. Just like with any history and science, once better information is gathered, it should be used, not considered war. It’s just history. WayMaQueen (talk) 17:25, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I’m sorry. I don’t know if I added the link right but in case I didn’t… [7]https://www.newspapers.com/image/408777811/?clipping_id=132240597&fcfToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjQwODc3NzgxMSwiaWF0IjoxNjk1NDkxMTAzLCJleHAiOjE2OTU1Nzc1MDN9.GU5Bgaqe_-8IdXYjWLjiLHxJ2DEqcTAuMceZK4Dy2Ss

Again history isn’t saying Herc didn’t contribute or diminishing him. What history says is that in video, literature and out of Herc’s mouth is that it was already here before his party. He is popularly known for it because it had cracked the surface, came from out of its “underground” state at 73-75. It was an African American music culture already, but no one “outside” paid any attention until those years. WayMaQueen (talk) 17:52, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Might be a good idea to take a look at Honorific nicknames in popular music for other examples, like Chuck Berry ("Father of Rock and Roll"), Elvis Presley ("King of Rock and Roll"), etc. Maybe change it to "nicknamed as" rather than "known as"? S0091 (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

This is a good idea. It just needs to be clarified is all in some way. WayMaQueen (talk) 18:40, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the changes but no issue if folks disagree. I will note currently there is nothing in the body or sources (from a brief look) that supports "Founder of Hip-Hop" (lead should summarize the body) so maybe that should be removed and just leave Father? S0091 (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

True. There isn’t anything in the body that could support it because the foundation was already being laid prior to and at the same time as Herc as noted by credible sources and Herc added to it as others did. Founder could actually be removed. He was however actually popularized as “Father” because Father is a popularized title but doesn’t necessarily mean founder as also stated by Wikipedia. WayMaQueen (talk) 23:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Here's the thing, if the majority of sources did describe him as "Founder" then that is what article should state (true or not) because Wikipedia simply summarizes what sources say. In this case, it does not appear to be supported so it should be removed. Looking at some of the sources provided by @Binksternet the sources agree the party is a foundation (or creation) "myth". Per the NPR piece, "It isn't that this party in 1973 didn't take place – but Jay Quan and other historians point out that some of the same innovations were going on at other parties in other places." While there are sources that state Campbell "invented" hip-hop (DW above, this cited NYMag piece), sources are more consistent in describing him as a pioneer along with others (at least the sources I am able to access). S0091 (talk) 17:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)