Talk:Dances with Wolves/Archive 1

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Quotes

There are some extremely humerous quotes in the film that were left out of the article. I request that someone please put them in. {{subst:unsignedIP|199.247.235.10|05:24, 12 February 2007

Try wikipedia's sister site, www.wikiquote.org. That site is made for quotes. Demoman87 (talk) 17:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

kevin's gate

the article for "heaven's gate" says that waterworld was nicknamed "kevin's gate" because of the giant budget and bad reviews. this article says dances with wolves had the same nickname due to low confidence in western epics, post heaven's gate--was it dances w/wolves, or waterworld, or both? 76.217.120.247 16:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Lakota language in the movie

What was the point of having all the Lakota people speak the feminine version of the Lakota language instead of having both the masculine and the feminine versions in the movie? I suppose all the actors were able to speak and understand both versions of the language. I am not satisfied with the explanation given in the article (the filmmakers decided to simplify the language).

ICE77 -- 84.222.103.163 21:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I too wondered about the reason for using one gender in the language. But I'm not certain all the actors who needed to speak Lakotan were in fact of that tribe. In Hollywood, an "Indian-is-an-Indian-is-an-Indian". And of the younger Indians, theres no guarantee they speak their tribal language at all, in the first place. So simplifying it to english standards was what they were after....Kind of a shame IMO, though. Engr105th (talk) 04:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It seemed to me that both versions were used. For example, men end their sentences with "yelo" to indicate a statement and "huwo" to indicate a question. Women end their sentences with either "ye" (statement) or "he" (question). The best example I can remember is when Stands With A Fist refuses to speak English. Kicking Bird's wife is talking to him and uses "he". The word "yelo" can be heard throughout. For example, when Wind In His Hair turns back from the horse-stealing party and yells at Lt. Dunbar. Ζρς ι'β' ^¡hábleme! 16:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

A very informative discussion about the Lakota language dialogues in the movie can be found at the link below. It states that the gender specific Lakota words were used correctly. http://lakotadictionary.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3610&p=44874#p44874 (Waglutapi (talk) 13:17, 2 October 2012 (UTC))

That might be a good addition to the external links section. Thanks! ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 16:02, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

As noted in the edit summaries: Discussion board comments and opinions are not WP:RS. They aren't even WP:V as we don't know who the anonymous posters are. That board did not require members to be Lakota, or members of Lakota communities, so their opinions wouldn't matter even if WP did allow these sorts of things as sources. It doesn't even belong on talk. Additionally, the board is now private. For someone with access to make a screenshot and post it elsewhere is additionally inappropriate. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:07, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:RS/WP:V don't apply to talk and Wayback Machine links are acceptable. But even though I think the posted archive link was appropriate here and there was no need to remove it from this section, I don't think there is a pressing need to insist on restoring it. So I guess it's okay to leave things as they are and move on. 89.176.230.207 (talk) 17:22, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

change sioux to lakotta

sioux means cut throat it is not actualy a lakotta word it is what other tribes called the lakotta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.193.199.153 (talk) 03:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC) That's strange, because some Lakota told me Sioux means "snake". It's however a wrong naming altogether. The Sioux should be called Lakota, the Navajo Dineh and the Aztecs Mexica. That would be more respectful towards them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 (talk) 17:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The word "Sioux" in my understanding originated from their Saulteaux enemies who meant it as a slur (the meaning is "snake").

Sioux can refer to any of the peoples whose native tongue is Lakota, Dakota, or Nakota. Sioux is a more general term referring to all of these people collectively. To specify a certain division, any of the preceding terms can be use. Ζρς ι'β' ^¡hábleme! 16:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The word Sioux was largely imposed on them by the European invaders. Originally, and many still do, they themselves would identity themselves as Lakota, or Nakota, or Dakota depending on their dialect... and or any of the subsets like Oglala, Yankton or Sisseton etc. As a largeer ethnic group they would refer to themselves as Oceti Sakowin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux#Oceti_Sakowin

The explanation of the meaning I have encountered most often is that Sioux was some enemies name for the LDNs. Recently there was a narrow defeat of a motion on Pine Ridge Res to rename the council from Oglala Sioux to Oglala Lakota, for the same reasons as stated here: some people find the term Sioux inapplicable/disrespectful

Now given that the language spoken is Lakota, then calling the people Lakota would be the most accurate and least offensive thing to do.

81.170.51.198 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:Dances with Wolves poster.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Languages

It seems that the Pawnee language is used in the movie. I went ahead and added it; if this is erroneous, delete it. I think the use of this language occurs just before Timmons gets killed. When the Indians see the smoke from his fire, they discuss what to do. That is not the Lakota language. Ζρς ι'β' ^¡hábleme! 16:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC) Never mind. According to [1], the Pawnee language is implemented. Ζρς ι'β' ^¡hábleme! 18:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Lakota language

According to the article (in the production section):

However, since Lakota contains both masculine and feminine forms of speech, the filmmakers decided to simplify the language by using the feminine form for all Lakota speech in the film. Native speakers of Lakota were reportedly highly amused by hearing warriors and other men in the film speak as if they were women.

I put a "citation needed" tag here. This just cannot be correct. There may be a mix of masculine and feminine speech with males, but it isn't all feminine. When they have gone to steal Lt. Dunbar's horse and the kid gets jerked off of the horse and hurt, Smiles A Lot says, "Tókha hwo (huwo)?", which according to [2] is the masculine form for "What's wrong?" Ζρς ι'β' ^¡hábleme! 23:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the word "all" causes some confusion, although the quote you use isn't necessarily wrong. While not every single, little line in the film spoken by a male may have been with feminine Lakota speech, it generally was. The amusement that the film caused among actual Lakota speakers was reported by countless sources. Keep in mind that, among Siouan languages, not all phrases are spoken differently by men and women. Just certain aspects. For example, many words, nouns, and phrases are spoken identically by men and women. Generally speaking, from what I know, one area where gender difference is especially notable is among command/imperative verbs. If I had to guess, some of the more amusing parts of the film as a result of all this were when Wind in His Hair - seemingly the most masculine character in the film - shouts commands at Dunbar. Harry Yelreh (talk) 08:39, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

This claim of inappropriate feminine language now appears in the Reception section. As a linguistics scholar, I also find this claim highly dubious. The claim is now shown based on a single anecdote quoted from Russell Means without any concrete grammatical evidence presented. The incredible work of the translator Doris Leader Charge should not be so trivially subjected to insult without evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pestophagous (talk • contribs) 15:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

OMG, it's the infamous, unusable, "cite" to the anonymous, now private, message board post again, with a random guy once again misrepresented as "scholars" of the Lakota language [3] as previously posted by disruptive IP 89.176.230.207 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) here. Same link, same goals, same phrasing. Anything you want to tell us? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:42, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Director's Cut info?

Does anyone have information about the differences between the theatrical and director's cuts, and why a director's cut was released? (Eg, did the studio require Costner to make the film shorter?)

Also somewhere it should be noted that Dances With Wolves is one of only two films where a well-known actor won the Best Director and Best Picture awards for his directorial debut. (The other film is Ordinary People (1980), directed by Robert Redford.) 18:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bosterson (talk • contribs)

Heh heh, and both of those Best Picture/Director victories came at the expense of Martin Scorsese, who was ROBBED both times!Vonbontee (talk) 06:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Who Portrayed Whom?

"Doris Leader Charge (1931--2001) was the on-set Lakota dialogue coach and also portrayed Pretty Shield, wife of Chief Ten Bears, portrayed by Floyd Red Crow Westerman."

Doris Leader Charge portrayed Pretty Shield, portrayed by Westerman? Huh?? Cactusjump (talk) 21:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Doris Leader Charge played Pretty Shield, and Floyd Red Crow Westerman played Chief Ten Bears. And the Chief and Pretty Shield were husband and wife. Simple, really. :)

Vonbontee (talk) 06:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Doris Leader Charge (1931--2001) was the on-set Lakota dialogue coach and also portrayed Pretty Shield, wife of Chief Ten Bears, who was portrayed by Floyd Red Crow Westerman ;) some dude (talk) 23:34, 04 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.177.34 (talk)

It's a book...

Why does this page reference the film instead? Norsehorse89 (talk) 03:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

That's what I came to ask. Why is there no article about the book? Xprivate eyex (talk) 10:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that we don't have a page about the novel, although given the relative popularity of the film I think it should be located here and the new article should be at Dances with Wolves (novel). I requested it at Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts/Literature#Books. –CWenger (^ • @) 18:47, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Reception

I don't think the opinion of one critic (Sean Nelson contributing to MSN's Entertainment Guide) constitutes a valid reference for the assertion "...many consider it one of the worst Oscar winners ever." Is there a better reference for this rather subjective claim, or can we delete or modify the statement? I feel it lends itself more to personal editorializing, but I don't want to edit it myself because that I think I would be guilty of the same thing (since I appreciated the film more than others).

Ambassador Quan (talk) 01:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggest remvoing the sentence: "In 2007, the Library of Congress selected Dances with Wolves for preservation in the United States National Film Registry.[3]" as this is exactly what it written at the top of the page. Strathallen (talk) 05:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Stands with a Fist is written as Stands with Wolf in the reception - Sri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.71.175.2 (talk) 12:47, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Does the opinion piece written by David Sirota for Salon's website written thirteen years after the film's release really belong in the "Reception" catagory? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.152.242.99 (talk) 09:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

At least twice (see history of the main page, dates 21 November 2021 and 6 October 2021), people have sought to challenge the claim by Russell Means of inappropriate feminine language use by male Lakota roles in the film. Please strongly consider keeping the simple challenge. It is tragic that there aren't better sources for the defense of Doris Leader Charge's work. However, if an editor of this page is going to remove the defense of her work, then why not remove the critique of her work (by Russell Means), since it provides no linguistic grammatical evidence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pestophagous (talk • contribs) 15:57, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

"Sioux ritual"

I'm going to change the line about Stands with a fist slicing her wrists as a Sioux ritual to instead state that she was attempting suicide. I've seen nothing to suggest that this is a Sioux ritual. If a reference can be found, I'm glad to have it reinserted, but the film doesn't seem to portray her actions as ritualistic. Stile4aly (talk) 15:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Worry about unbiased presentation

The synopsis given does not seem unbiased, and analyzes the movie instead of just informing like it should. Could someone else fix this since I haven't seen the film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.166.227.237 (talk) 22:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Remove Avatar film

I think the link to the James Cameron film in see also should be removed, it is like having Ice Age 2 linking to Noah's Ark --Exrain (talk) 23:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

More like having Noah's Ark link to Ice Age 2, if you consider which came first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.112.129.239 (talk) 02:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The Avatar article does refer to this article, as does Last Samurai, although not in a way that seems to jusify the See also links. I left both for somebody move convince they should go or stay to deal with. However, the Fern Gully and Jeremiah Johnson links seemed totally spurious to me, and I removed both.--Hjal (talk) 07:53, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Character names in Lakota

I think the list of characters should include their names in the Lakota/Sioux language. Albmont (talk) 22:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Did they include their names that way in the film's credits? Because if they didn't, then there's no need to do it in the article. Harry Yelreh (talk) 08:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

French Blu-ray Extended Edition?

The Blu-ray section of the article claims that the French Blu-ray release includes a 224-minute "extended edition" of the movie, distinct from the 181-minute theatrical version and 236-minute director's cut. Is this true? This is the only place I've heard about a third version of the film. I think it's more likely that the French release simply includes the same 236-minute director's cut released elsewhere, but that the package incorrectly lists the runtime of the speeded-up PAL version. Anyone know for sure? Cafink (talk) 19:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Director's Cut ist NOT the longer version!

The director's cut is the "short" version of the film!! The longer version was released not until the film was already a big success. The long version was released by the STUDIO only, not by Kevin Costner (i.e. the director), furthermore the original editor Neil Travis had nothing to do with the longer version, it was edited only by William Hoy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.4.47.132 (talk) 23:48, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

"now why don't you write"

there are hundreds of books out there that Costner could release his genius and produce another blockbuster as "wolves".Lets just all pray that he has not lost his passion for a craft that he excells in and brings so much to so many! Michele —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.253.178.50 (talk) 20:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a dscussion page for the wikipedia article, not the film. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.140.226 (talk) 17:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, could someone here explain to me how the 1990 movie based on the 1988 book was in development for 5 years (first 2 paragraphs). Maybe? Darr247 (talk) 00:52, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Plot

The plot reads like a 12 year old's school report. It needs a complete rewrite. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 01:42, 29 May 2012 (UTC) This portion needs to be fixed: Senior officers interrogate him, but Dunbar cannot prove his story, as a corporal has found and discarded his diary. 1. John Dunbar's Diary was not discarded when found. It was kept and used as TP by Spivey 2. When Spivey was killed at the river, the Diary floated away 3. It was returned to John Dunbar by "Smiles A Lot" when John was leaving to go back to the white man's world to prove his story. This is crucial point as it gives the audience the hope that with the Diary, there is a chance that he can somehow be exonerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.115.159.58 (talk) 14:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Historical references

"St. David's Field, Tennessee does not exist nor did it in 1863." Perhaps: "St. David's Field, Tennessee is a fictional town." ? Jamesthecat (talk) 12:47, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Major Fambrough vs Fainborough

The character name seems to be "Major Fambrough". Could an established editor please verify and correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.146.149.21 (talk) 16:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Lede

The opening says the film is an adaptation of a 1988 book, and was released in 1990. But the second paragraph claims the film was in development for 5 years. Any explanation for this disparity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.38.100.250 (talk) 13:10, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I came here to ask the same question. I guess a year is plenty long enough to ignore this issue so I will remove it. Memento Morty (talk) 15:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

It also says the screenplay came FIRST, then Costner encouraged the writer to create a book from the screenplay to increase its popularity, which would make it easier to finance the film. Reading is good. 116.231.75.71 (talk) 14:54, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

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Academy Awards list needed

I had to go to another site to find what the other four wins were for. Also this: "It is unclear whether the name "John Dunbar" was chosen as a corollary to the real historical figure.” is a misuse of the word “corollary.” I believe the word you are thinking of is “correlative.” Orthotox (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

David Sirota's comments under the "Reception" section

I'm not sure how accurate David Sirota's comments are about Dances with Wolves being a "white saviour" narrative. Anyone who has actually watched the film, will know that Dunbar (played by Costner) turns his back on the way of life of his own American people, and chooses to live with and align with the Sioux instead. If anything, the reverse is true of the narrative, in that the Sioux "save" Dunbar from his way of life - indeed, near the end of the film the Sioux literally have to rescue him after he is arrested by the American soldiers.

Can anyone provide any evidence that supports the suggestion that the film demonstrates a "white saviour" narrative, because I believe David Sirota's comments to be prejudiced and non-factual. He suggests that the story is about a "white guy who saves the day" - but this is simply not true, the Sioux are the overarching heroes/rescuers of Dunbar.

I would argue this citation should be removed, as it is an inaccurate criticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiverseSynergy (talk • contribs) 13:20, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

“Fame” section

This section appears inappropriately titled to me? MapReader (talk) 02:42, 21 September 2019 (UTC)