Talk:David Cameron/Archive 7

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Archive 7

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020

Please remove this last sentence from the lead:

He has also been criticised by figures on both the left and right, and has been accused of elitism and political opportunism. 

Reason: The word "opportunism" does not occur at all in the body of the article. And "elitism" is briefly mentioned in the article in a balanced manner (Michael Gove jokes that the Tory Cabinet has a "ridiculous" number of Etonians, whereas Michael Mosbacher looks at the historical statistics and disagrees), whereas the lead sentence reflects only Gove's viewpoint. Note that Gove did not go to Eton, was an adopted child raised in Aberdeen by low-income Labour-supporting foster parents, and had designs on becoming prime minister himself - so is hardly a neutral source for Wikipedia when he contrasts himself with his colleagues. 86.133.2.202 (talk) 07:43, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Elitism: This was a very frequent allegation, is backed by that source, is the very point of the source later in the section , and with just a quick Google search brings up many RS (even Reuters) making or discussing the same statement. This particular article isn't related to Gove. I would personally support that term remaining.

Opportunism: I'm less sure on this. A quick search brings up many opinion pieces on the matter, and I found this in a book (although I recognise this is re the future of Scotland, so there is a bias). I'd recommend further discussion on that point, but wouldn't support removal outright. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

References

I appreciate your research, but it does not change the fact that there is a mismatch between the lead and the main text. The lead says "elitism" whereas the main text says "old boy network " (which is corruption, not elitism) versus Cameron pushing through quotas for women and blacks (that makes Cameron non-meritocratic, the opposite of elitism). Even worse problem with "opportunism": This is claimed in the lead, but not backed up at all in the text. To me the final sentence in the Wikipedia lead sounds like an unprofessional afterthought by some novice editor. What stands out for me in Cameron is not these vague politically motivated labels, but that he was the first prime minister to use referenda to resolve disputes (referendum on voting system, referendum on Scotland, EU referendum, and similar to a referendum, public votes on regional police administrators). That is un-British and historically significant.86.140.70.190 (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. There appears to be a discussion in this section about the merits of this change. Please note that edit requests should only be made once a consensus has been reached. Please continue this discussion in another section on this talk page and gain a consensus before reopening this request. Thanks. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 00:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Born ...to an ≥upper-middle-class≤ family

"Born in London to an ≥upper-middle-class≤ family" ahahhaha. Um , just no. For every on puff piece by Toby Young describing Camerons class as upper-middle, there will be 5 describing Cameron as an aristocrat. That's a laughable description. Do conservative HQ sign this off or do they just buy in people happy to to tweak content?! I suspect the latter. I am sorry for not assuming good faith. I love Wikipedia but when I see this I worry it is corrupted by those with power. 2A02:C7D:A340:FE00:1522:7FB6:78BD:CC82 (talk) 23:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

His father was a stockbroker, not being titled etc. Even though his grandfather was knighted, that would only make it a mix in my opinion. Fixing26 (talk) 15:48, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

The general conclusion of this 2015 book by Nigel Cawthorne seems to be that he grew up "in happy upper-middle class surroundings". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:56, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Carlisle Principle

The article Carlisle principle has been proposed for deletion, which is probably sensible, but this catchphrase of Cameron's should be recorded somewhere in Wikipedia, as it had considerable traction in Scotland, albeit briefly. Maybe someone who is familiar with Wikipedia's coverage of Cameron could check it out and see if the information can be incorporated either here or on other related articles. Then the deletion can proceed uncontrovertially. Thanks. --Doric Loon (talk) 17:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Can a section be added on “Dodgy Dave” and his Unlimited Liability company?

Can a section be added on “Dodgy Dave” and his Unlimited Liability company?

Not in those terms, unless you have an unimpeachable source. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:53, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Ah, how we laughed. Nice one, Beast of Bolsover. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2021

Remove lobbyist. 160.5.123.188 (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2021

David Cameron
Leader of the Conservative Party
In office 6 December 2005 – 11 July 2016
Chairman	Francis Maude Caroline Spelman Eric Pickles The Lord Feldman of Elstree The Baroness Warsi Grant Shapps
Preceded by	Michael Howard
Succeeded by	Theresa May

Can Chairmen of the Conservative Party who served under Cameron be listed in his infobox, as they are with most Leaders of the Labour Party, and many Leaders of the Conservatives? 81.157.224.127 (talk) 09:26, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Both Theresa May and Michael Howard have this, although not Boris Johnson? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:34, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 12:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 September 2022

Replace ‘upper-middle-class family’ by ‘wealthy family’. The term ‘upper-middle-class’ is vague and obscures his family links to aristocracy and government. 109.249.179.179 (talk) 15:22, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The current sourcing clearly states upper middle class, and is attributed. Do you have sources referring to his upbring as wealthy? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:19, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2022

In the lead, please replace this:

After leaving office, he was implicated in the Greensill scandal after lobbying government ministers and civil servants on behalf of Greensill Capital.

with this:

After leaving office, he was implicated but cleared in the Greensill scandal after lobbying government ministers and civil servants on behalf of Greensill Capital.

Thank you. 12:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done - Please provide a source that supports this change. I have not followed this scandal closely, so correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I can tell (for example referring to Greensill scandal), saying he was "cleared" would be inaccurate. Actualcpscm (talk) 14:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

David Cameron's vistit to India in 2013

I would like to add tha topic how David showed his sorrow for the Amritsar massacare, popularly known as Jallianwala Bagh Tragedy. During his trip to India, he adressed the massacre as a-- "deeply shameful event in the British history." Flickers5980 (talk) 05:40, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

"Cameron is viewed as poorly in historical rankings and public opinion of British prime ministers."

This sentence in the lead is a bit odd, the use of "as poorly" sounds as though the sentence is referring to Cameron's health. It should be changed to "Cameron is viewed unfavourably in historical rankings and public opinion of British prime ministers." 79.66.89.173 (talk) 17:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

This wiki entry is far too complimentary

Given the shambles the UK descended into post the Brexit referendum which he agreed to in order to quiet fractious right wing elements of his Conservative party, the article is not nearly critical enough. It can be argued that the period 2010 to 2023 have been the most calamitous peacetime period for Britain in generations.

On economic policy, government debt accelerated under Cameron and subsequent Conservative prime ministers, now standing at 3x what it was when he took office and running at 95% of GDP. This has been directly attributed to austerity and Conservative mismanagement of the economy by leading economists (see Krugman, Murphy, Blanchflower, and former Bank of England Governors King and Carney for example).

Further, Cameron studied for a PPE (Philosophy, Politics and Economics) at Oxford where he would have been exposed to a wide range of tools at the disposal of government when faced with a severe economic contraction as was the case subsequent to the 2008/9 banking crises. Instead, Cameron chose to slash government spending, leading to increased poverty and greater social divides. It has been opined that he used the banking crises to dismantle what was left of the UK welfare state with the encouragement and guidance of small government right wing neolib think tanks like the Policy Exchange and the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) amongst others.

The article is not nearly critical enough either of Cameron's Brexit legacy, for he must bare the responsibility for it as much as those that argued in favour of the UK leaving the EU. That Europe was weakened and players like Putin emboldened by the UK's exit should also be discussed further. There is no mention of Russian money - much of it linked directly back to Putin through his client oligarchs - that poured into the Conservative Party coffers (and continues to do so despite the ongoing conflict in Ukraine - see Guardian reports for example) while Cameron was at the helm. The findings of the investigation into Russian money in UK politics, and especially that of the Conservative Party, was held after Cameron left office, but it was shown the trail went right back to 2010/2011.

History should rightly record his tenure in office for what it was: a hammer blow to democracy, progress and decency in the UK. That the UK is a different country much for the worse is his legacy. Harrison Thomas 13:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harison thomas (talk • contribs)

Unhinged rant.

These are matters of opinion. Wikipedia cannot have a point of view. What we could possibly do is mention (if we haven't already done so) that his period in office and his policies were/are highly controversial (although that is probably true of every prime minister), including no doubt as regards some of the points you have outlined. But you would have to cite reliable sources to support that contention, and balance it with other reliable sources that take a contrary view. See WP:NPOV-- Alarics (talk) 23:43, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

"Swine Kampf" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Swine Kampf has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 8 § Swine Kampf until a consensus is reached. Estar8806 (talk) 21:14, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Notability

Currently the article notes 'Ian was born with both legs deformed, and underwent repeated operations to correct this.' This about his father. This would be notable if about the main subject but not the father. Also it is unreferenced. Would someone with editing acces remove it. Thank you. 80.136.194.80 (talk) 19:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Alarics (talk) 09:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2023

David Cameron's official title is now Rt Hon. The Lord Cameron PC. There will almost certainly be a territorial designation to his noble title but it has not yet been announced. 129.67.111.33 (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: This is being discussed in the section above (and the section 2 headings below). Feel free to contribute to those discussions. Aoi (青い) (talk) 17:04, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2023 (2)

David William Donald Cameron (born 9 October 1966) is a British politician who has served as Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs since November 2023. He previously served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 2010 to 2016 and as Leader of the Conservative Party from 2005 to 2016. He served as Leader of the Opposition from 2005 to 2010, and was Member of Parliament (MP) for Witney from 2001 to 2016.

Please include in the opening lead section that Cameron is now a member of the House of Lords

David William Donald Cameron (born 9 October 1966) is a British politician who has served as Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs since November 2023. He also now a member of the House of Lords He previously served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 2010 to 2016 and as Leader of the Conservative Party from 2005 to 2016. He served as Leader of the Opposition from 2005 to 2010, and was Member of Parliament (MP) for Witney from 2001 to 2016. Since November 2023, he has also served in the House of Lords. 2601:447:4100:C30:45E9:3AD6:4F98:EC99 (talk) 13:04, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: being discussed below Cannolis (talk) 17:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Is it "Prime Minister" or "prime minister"?

Ridiculously inconsistent between articles. The main article for the PM is title case in the title but sentence case in the lead. In both Thatcher's and Cameron's articles, it's title case in the lead, and in Sunak's, so presumably in all of them. But I thought "prime minister" was supposed to be in sentence case. Contrl+Fing this article reveals constant inconsistencies between "prime minister" and "Prime Minister" even in the categories. Any explanation or should there be a wholesale change to consistency one way or another? JM (talk) 22:17, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is MOS:JOBTITLE. Aoi (青い) (talk) 23:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Peerage

He has a peerage for his role as Foreign Secretary. Should the page be moved? Ebbedlila (talk) 13:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

According to Sky News, the King "has confirmed Cameron as a life peer."[1] I think his status as a peer should be made clear in the first paragraph of the lead, though I don't think anyone has confirmed what his formal title is yet, at least from what I've seen. As to whether this article should be moved...I'm not sure. I notice that Margaret Thatcher's article is titled "Margaret Thatcher" and not "Baroness Thatcher" and Kenneth Clarke is still at "Kenneth Clarke" and not "Baron Clarke" (I admit I looked up those two examples arbitrarily), so I do not think a page move is 100% required. I imagine "David Cameron" is likely still the most WP:COMMONNAME? Aoi (青い) (talk) 14:17, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Aoi (青い) (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree the page should not be moved, per WP:COMMONNAME. I would dispute any move. Therefore, any move would have to be discussed first. cagliost (talk) 14:21, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Like others, I think that he is still more notable as "former prime minister David Cameron" than as "Foreign Secretary The Lord Cameron", so I would oppose a move. I would support a redirect from "Lord Cameron" to this page, though. Espatie (talk) 14:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

For the time he is foreign secretary, I believe it should be moved, as he will likely be referred to with his title going forward. It can be moved back to David Cameron once he is no longer in office. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 14:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I also oppose a move. He will still be known around the world as David Cameron. I should also point out that we do not yet know what his title will be. It will not be simply "Lord Cameron" as titles may not be the name of Scottish clans. (There have been three Lords Cameron of Somewhere but never a Lord Cameron for this reason.) JRawle (Talk) 15:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:NCPEER, any move would follow the format of "David Cameron, Baron...", so "David Cameron" would still be part of the title. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 15:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

References for his title not yet being determined. House of Lords Library [2] Profile on the FCO website: The Rt Hon David Cameron [3] JRawle (Talk) 15:12, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to 'Lord Cameron' for this reason. His surname will suffice until his title is confirmed. 1stViscountessNivlac (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

There are currently two Lord Cameron's sat in the Lords as of writing, one retired in 2016. The creation of peerages are not instant and can take a while. To quote The Independent: "the process of formalising his title could take several weeks as it will require a number of legal documents, including letters patent and a writ of summons, to be drafted, submitted and approved." On this basis he is not simply "The Lord Cameron". He may even not chose to use his surname in his title, such as with the Barons Bannside, Deben and Lingfield. Until it is announced no assumed titles should be used anywhere here or elsewhere, not should the page be moved! UaMaol (talk) 19:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Even when the peerage goes through, its still not his WP:COMMONNAME. Thatcher is still titled "Margaret Thatcher", not "Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher". Like Thatcher's article, the bolded part in the first sentence will change to "David William Donald Cameron, Baron _______" (probably Cameron), and the top of his infobox will change to say "The Right Honourable The Baron ______". JM (talk) 22:12, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

In terms of consistency, a better example may be the article for John Gummer; although he is now titled Baron Deben, his Wikipedia page still uses his common name. This may be particularly relevant if Cameron chooses a title that is not his surname or a geographical reference. Espatie (talk) 20:42, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Nicholas True, Baron True is titled as such even though Nicholas True is unambiguous. For consistency, government peers should probably have their peerage titles appended for as long as they remain peers while in government. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I think Baron True is better known or at least as equally known as "Baron True" though. He never sat in the House of Commons, he was made a Lord in 2011 and did not become prominent as any kind of minister or official in the national government until 2020. JM (talk) 19:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Will being made a life peer exclude him from being a member of the House of Commons? Will he actually be able to address the house as Foreign Secretary? Does he have a limited window of time before he's excluded? Perhaps he could appear by videolink. Not sure if this needs to be made clear in the article. Perhaps it's just a myth. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure he is disqualified from sitting in the House of Commons as an MP, because he can't sit in both houses at the same time. But I am pretty sure he is not disqualified from appearing in the Commons to speak. JM (talk) 15:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for clarifying. This must be not written down somewhere in the glorious Constitution of the United Kingdom? Or perhaps there is a reliable source for that. At least Cameron was once an MP, unlike Carrington, who never was? At least Cameron has been just been very carefully parachuted in and not just voted in by members of the Conservative Party. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

If you find it's due and wish to add it to the article I'm sure you'll be able to find a reliable source for it. JM (talk) 16:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Do I detect the faintest glimmer of doubt in your reply? Do other editors think it's WP:DUE? Perhaps the facts of the matter ought to be established first? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2023

I would like to add David Cameron’s coat of arms. Jelkind27 d125 (talk) 16:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Please make your request for a new image to be uploaded to Files For Upload. Once the file has been properly uploaded, feel free to reactivate this request to have the new image used. Liu1126 (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Cockatrice passant, with pigs rampant and twelve stars Or trampled? But unlikely to be created before his title and territorial designation are decided, so as not to duplicate previously created peerages. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:57, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

He's not a Lord yet!

Cameron will be made a life peer, according to Sky News. But it hasn't happened yet. Editors should avoid adding unsourced claims about this. cagliost (talk) 11:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

"His Majesty has also been pleased to confer the dignity of a Barony of the United Kingdom for life upon David Cameron." Via https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-david-cameron-appointed-foreign-31424363 Farleysmaster (talk) 11:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps a more reliable source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/nov/13/suella-braverman-rishi-sunak-cabinet-reshuffle-conservatives-uk-politics-latest?page=with:block-655203d98f083a4130e4931f#block-655203d98f083a4130e4931f arthomnix (talk) 11:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Yep, that's where I saw it first, but it's not really a news post. I think the Mirror is fine for reporting on a press statement. Farleysmaster (talk) 11:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

He is now, the King has already approved his Barony this morning at around 10. The Independent and The Telegraph all reported that. Although it does seem a bit weird and wild that his peerage is directly approved by the King, without going through the House of Lords vetting process (and with no territorial designation). Boreas Sawada 12:21, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes he is a lord now. The territorial designation will come after there is agreement with the garter king of arms. As Lords vetting process is concerned, it usually is not required when a sitting prime minister recommends a peerage to the King. That process normally takes place in honours list (new year and birthday) or ex-prime minister's resignation honours. Kartik07wiki (talk) 12:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for this timely elaboration ;) Boreas Sawada 12:47, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Kartik07wiki peerages and other honours are actually awarded year round, this is part of the 2023 Special Honours. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 03:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

"His peerage has not been gazetted."

Actually it has officially been announced/published and the King fulfilled the PM's wishes on the morning of 13 November 2023. https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/peerages-awarded-to-former-prime-ministers/#:~:text=Former%20UK%20prime%20minister%20David,foreign%2C%20commonwealth%20and%20development%20affairs. Jaymailsays (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

This is all wrong, he is not a Lord yet. His peerage has not been gazetted. When he is given a peerage, there will be reliable sources stating his title, e.g. "Lord Cameron of Wherever", and stating the date on which he was given a peerage. No such sources yet exist, because he has not been made a Lord yet. cagliost (talk) 12:53, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

He can be a Lord before there are reliable sources. We just can't put it on the wiki record. Farleysmaster (talk) 14:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

You are wrong about this; he's a peer of the realm from the moment the Palace sends the notification to the London gazette (which has happened already). Weirdly, it doesn't actually have to be published, it's effective from the moment it is sent. Espatie (talk) 14:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

How do you know that has happened? Provide references. cagliost (talk) 15:24, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Feels like we're halfway there now:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/13/hes-not-an-mp-so-how-can-david-cameron-return-to-the-cabinet

"The Downing Street announcement of Cameron’s job said that the former prime minister was immediately being made a life peer, meaning he will sit in the House of Lords." Farleysmaster (talk) 16:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The US government also regards him as a Lord now. Boreas Sawada 11:42, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

His title should be updated. From BBC: ″Lord Cameron, as he is now known as of his appointment to the House of Lords on Monday, had been out of Parliament since he stood down as prime minister in 2016." ahmad87 19:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Cameron became a member of the House of Lords on 17 November 2023 [4]. cagliost (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 17 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Restoring WP:SNOW close by Launchballer. Not moved. (non-admin closure) Fermiboson (talk) 13:06, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

---

David Cameron → David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton – Per WP:NCPEER GnocchiFan (talk) 13:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• "There are several exceptions to these rules. / Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names" - news articles still say 'David Cameron'. Castlemore7 (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose move. He falls under the exception of "Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names". O.N.R. ^(talk) 13:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per O.N.R. and WP:COMMONNAME. estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and I think most of these life peers are in a similar situation. Killuminator (talk) 14:52, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unnecessary disambiguation. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• He is a member of the House of Lords and thus deserves to have his page designated with the title bestowed on him. The title will now be on his passport, bank details etc etc therefore the Wikipedia page should be as well. JCroft04 (talk) 15:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Glad to hear he's got a new passport. But when did you get to see it? I think you have to pay extra for a quick turnaround these days, don't you (unless they're on strike for five weeks, like they were back in April)? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per WP:COMMONNAME 134.225.31.226 (talk) 15:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per WP:COMMONERNAME, just like Lord Mandy of Foy and Hartlepool, in the County of Blairshire, etc. etc. But when did the Chippy bit get signed off? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:15, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Just today, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - he is, at least at the moment, known almost exclusively by his personal name, so that should be the article title per WP:NCPEER arthomnix (talk) 17:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - having the politics David Cameron at base name is fine. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 17:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Considering David Cameron's recent conferment as a life peer, it's appropriate to move the page to David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton during his tenure as Foreign Secretary. This aligns with WP:NCPEER, ensuring our titles reflect current and formal roles. While Cameron is known widely by his personal name, the temporary inclusion of his peerage title in the Wikipedia page title would accurately represent his present official status, adhering to both accuracy and relevancy in titling. Post his tenure, we can revert to just David Cameron, adapting to his most common name in public discourse. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  So WP:NCPEER says:

  *There are several exceptions to these rules.

  • Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names, e.g. Bertrand Russell (not "Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell").

  How many people know him as "David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton"? And the name in the infobox is something else again, "The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton": is that another version that's never used? Or when is it used? Not sure that Peter Mandelson's page changed to Baron Mandelson, of Foy in the County of Herefordshire and of Hartlepool in the County of Durham in October 2008. But that may have just been an oversight, of course. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Unlike Bertrand Russell, Cameron is a recent appointee to a significant government role, making his peerage title more relevant. This distinction justifies a temporary move of the page to include his peerage title, reflecting his current official status. Additionally, the precedent set by Nicholas True, Baron True supports this approach. True's page title includes his peerage, despite him being the only Nicholas True with an article, indicating a practice of recognising current governmental roles in conjunction with peerage titles. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Catherine Ashton was the EU's High Representative for Foreign Affairs from 2009 to 2014. She was known as Catherine Ashton throughout that time and her Wikipedia article stayed at that title despite her being also Baroness Ashton of Upholland and a former Leader of the House of Lords. Opera hat (talk) 19:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  That was then, this is now, and Nicholas True, Baron True is a better comparison as the only other peer in the Cabinet. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:29, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  The idea that if a peer has a current government role this has to be in their Wikipedia's page title is a doctrine you've just made up. It hasn't been applied to Lord Offord of Garvel or Lord Benyon or Lord Davies of Gower who are in the present government. 51.52.8.226 (talk) 19:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  No, it's my opinion, and I've never pretended it was anything other. Neither of those are in the Cabinet. How do you explain Nicholas True, Baron True, who actually is? ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. What you say sounds true, not True. True's in the cabinet? No, surely that's not true. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC) (no, it really was true, thanks to our shortest-serving British prime minister. And it seems he's still there)

  Giving special wait to his "recent" appointment to the government and his brand new peerage is WP:RECENTISM in the purest form. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:24, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton still retains "David Cameron" as a primary part of the title. This approach ensures that he remains the undoubted primary topic and is easily searchable under his widely recognised personal name. The addition of the peerage title doesn't obscure or replace his common name; rather, it complements it by reflecting his current official status and role, which is a significant aspect of his public identity at this moment. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:39, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  "David Cameron" still retains most of his real name, David William Donald Cameron? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose WP:NCPEER "Peers who are almost exclusively known by their personal names". He is most notable as Prime Minister, when he was known as David Cameron. cagliost (talk) 18:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Weak support per WP:NAMECHANGES. When someone undergoes a name change, we should pay due consideration and give additional weight to the name that sources use after the name change. Sources like the BBC, Telegraph, etc., have begun referring him as "Lord Cameron"; the BBC in particular refers to him almost exclusively as "Lord Cameron" outside of article titles. The reason why my support is weak is because his official title has been known for only a day, and I think additional time (maybe a couple of months) is needed to assess how reliable sources refer to him as time goes on. I also agree somewhat with Neveselbert: I think the fact that he has undertaken this title specifically to become a minister differentiates his situation somewhat from Thatcher, etc. Aoi (青い) (talk) 19:23, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think this argument works. They refer to him as "Lord Cameron" as they would previously use "Mr Cameron". But no one's proposing to rename the article to "Lord Cameron". cagliost (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for all the reasons repated many times above. —ThorstenNY (talk) 22:35, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - see Alec Douglas-Home (not Alec Douglas-Home, Baron Home of the Hirsel), Peter Mandelson (not Peter Mandelson, Baron Mandelson), Jack McConnell (not Jack McConnell, Baron McConnell of Glenscorrodale) and Chris Patten (not Chris Patten, Baron Patten of Barnes) etc. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - Precedent should not be "peers serving in the cabinet", but "former Prime Ministers, who have be elevated to the peerage", including the example of Lord Home, with the most recent example of Baroness Thatcher confirming this. However, I would support an immediate follow-up proposal to have Lord Cameron redirect to this page, with a new page for Lord Cameron (disambiguation) created for the other Lords Cameron. No other Lord Cameron will have the prominence and relevancy that the newly elevated Lord Cameron had with his tenure as PM, and will have as Foreign Secretary. JustAnotherEditHere (talk) 23:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose His personal name is the common name. There's no need to attach that train of a title to his name. This form of naming also has precedent: Anthony Eden (instead of Anthony Eden, 1st Earl of Avon), Margaret Thatcher (instead of Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher), etc. Keivan.f^Talk 01:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose the move per arguments above. The personal name David Cameron remains the common name and the articles for the other modern PMs with peerages are also still titled by their personal common names (see Thatcher, Attlee, Macmillan, etc). ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 01:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
• Uninvolved comment Just so everyone is aware, an attempt at WP:SNOW close was made an hour or so back, which was reverted. Fermiboson (talk) 03:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Which I stand by. I saw 15 oppose arguments and 3 supports of varying weakness, none of which were accurately based on policy.--Launchballer 10:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

• It should be closed on grounds of SNOW cagliost (talk) 05:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

  Fair point. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:48, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. He's clearly known as David Cameron. In general, I don't think we should rename life peer articles by adding their title to the article name if they were notable before receiving their peerage. HandsomeFella (talk) 10:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per all above; WP:COMMONNAME and the exceptions to WP:NCPEER. JM (talk) 11:47, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Snowclose no way this passes. 16 opposes based on policy, 1 weak support and 1 support. JM (talk) 11:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2023

The monarch is king Charles 3rd 86.22.116.153 (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I suspect this was about the mentions of Elizabeth II in the infobox; she was the monarch during the time period in question. O.N.R. ^(talk) 14:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Post nominal PC

Hi, is Cameron not entitled to the post nominal letters PC as a Member of the Privy Council? For examples, see Robin Butler, Baron Butler of Brockwell and John Cameron, Lord Abernethy A3811 (talk) 15:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

This is addressed in the edit history (which I'm assuming is correct...): " The post-nominal 'PC' is only used by those who hold the title of 'The Right Honourable' outside of the Privy Council eg. Peers below the rank of Marquess etc. For example, The Rt Hon. Boris Johnson does not use 'PC' but The Rt Hon. The Lord True PC does." Farleysmaster (talk) 15:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Does this mean that the post-nominals should be added once he has been made a peer? arthomnix (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

one would assume, given he would be a lord below the rank of Marquis and also a sitting member of the Privy Council JM (talk) 16:51, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The Name of This Page

The name of this page should change its name to David Cameron, Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton to reflect the standard of other British peers. StrawWord298944 (talk) 20:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

See WP:NCBRITPEER and WP:COMMONNAME. David Cameron alone is the common name here. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

WP:NCBRITPEER is absurdly inconsistent. Nobody refers to Lord True as "Nicholas True, Baron True" or even "Baron True". The guidelines need revising. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Lord Cameron or Baron Cameron

Following on from @DeFacto's edit, is Cameron's title "Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton" or "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton"? In his introduction ceremony Cameron appears to be officially entitled "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton". However Cameron himself states "I David, Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton...". I think this also counts as a WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. I'm not sure exactly how the whole title system around peers work, but as fair as i'm aware isn't Baron technically the official title and Lord the informal one?

Another issue is sourcing. "Lord Cameron" is popping up everywhere, but "Baron Cameron" only comes up with a few results from some questionable sources, including the Oxford Mail (merely a regional paper so probably not the most reliable), The Spectator's Steerpike (opinion) and an opinion piece in The Guardian. Some other sources (Politics.co.uk and LBC) mention "Baron Cameron" in the headline but only use "Lord Cameron" in the article bodies, which iirc means they can't be used to source the title. Does anyone know of a reliable source with "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton"? ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind, a reference from Hansard has now been added. Then again, would that still count as original research? ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

A baron is a type of lord. All barons are lords but not all lords are barons. Britain also has earls and dukes and viscounts and marquesses, all lords. All are commonly referred to as "lord", especially in the context of sitting in the House of Lords. Roughly equivalent to "mister" or "Mr." in general, and also "member" in the House of Lords. Hansard source is not OR, it's a primary source. Generally editors like secondary sources better, but primary sources are fine in many cases, especially for something like this when the source is Hansard. JM (talk) 16:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The London Gazette is the usual primary source for this sort of thing – now added for Cameron's case. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 12:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Deficit

Can anyone get a citation or a cn on "Cameron has been credited for helping to modernise the Conservative Party and for reducing the United Kingdom's inherited national deficit" ? 78.146.230.75 (talk) 16:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

"As prime minister" needs to be added to that section. Readers could otherwise assume Cameron was credited for those things as foreign secretary. --195.99.227.0 (talk) 18:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"Recommended him for a life peerage"

Shouldn't this be rewritten? Cameron now has a peerage. So this should be changed to:

"During the November 2023 cabinet reshuffle, Conservative prime minister Rishi Sunak appointed Cameron foreign secretary and he was subsequently given a life peerage as The Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton, allowing him to sit in the House of Lords." 195.99.227.0 (talk) 14:28, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

War mongers

War mongering does not appear to be in the historical facts regarding Cameron. Doccameron (talk) 01:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

If you're referring to the Strip, I don't see it mentioned on Joe Biden's page either. --195.99.227.0 (talk) 14:30, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Grammatical error in "Dodgy Dave moniker" section

"Jon Bercow" should be "John Bercow" 148.252.35.12 (talk) 19:35, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for pointing out. Jonathan Deamer (talk) 20:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Short description: Former PM, or just Foreign Secretary

There's a couple of reverts going on regarding the short description, principally whether it should be "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (2010-2016), Foreign Secretary since 2023" (as preferred by @Mark and inwardly digest) or simply "Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom since 2023" (as preferred by @ThirdWaySocialDemocrat). It's probably better to reach consensus here rather than continually reverting.

My preference would be for "British politician (born 1966)" in line with short descriptions for other current politicians who have served in multiple roles.

We should note from Wikipedia:Short description that:

• we should 'avoid time-specific adjectives like "former", "retired", "late", "defunct", "closed", "current", "new", "recent", "planned", "future", etc.'
• 'More than 80% of short descriptions use fewer than 40 characters'
• 'Editors should keep in mind that short descriptions are meant to distinguish an article from similarly named articles in search results, and not to define the subject.'

SoThisIsPeter (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Short description confirms that "Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom since 2023" is preferable to the literary diarrhea of "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (2010-2016); Foreign Secretary since 2023" which includes a whopping 78 characters - so hardly can even be called a "short description" while we're at it, why don't we also mention his time as MP for Witney while we're at it, or his time as leader of the Conservative Party? Lol.

Foreign Secretary is clearly the role most relevant at the present time while he holds this office. ThirdWaySocialDemocrat (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the "British politician" label is better than the "Foreign secretary" one given the holders of the other Great Offices of State (with the exception of Sunak as PM) simply have that short description. SoThisIsPeter (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

"British politician (born 1966)" is just fine. All we need to do is indicate who the article is about. Even Winston Churchill simply says "British statesman and writer (1874–1965)". Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, though I don't know how consistently this is applied. Even Liz Truss's short description mentions her being PM! Mark and inwardly digest (talk) 21:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)