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Smerus (talk·contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection.
The article has been flagged by an IP editor on the basis of 'neutrality'. No indication has been given of content which has been considered by this editor as non-neutral or WP:POV. Although the flag indicates that there should be discussion on this talk page, no discussion has been initiated by the IP editor who raised it. Unless the editor's (or any other editors') concerns are clarified, it seems to me that is not in fact possible to have any discussion. Unless explicit issues are raised in this thread, I therefore seek consensus to remove the template. --Smerus (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The template, which was added together with an inadmissible PROD, should be removed for lack of detail and discussion. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:55, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is no neutrality issue here. Ceoil (talk) 21:59, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For WP:COI reasons I no longer edit this article, and I have no idea who made the recent edit, which has been partly undone as "not technically true, self published source." I'm not quite sure what 'not technically true' means in WP terms - a statment which itself might need some citation; surely statements can be only true, untrue, or partially true (or, indeed, partially untrue). I do not know the website which was referred to, (which copied an HGO press release and was therefore indeed inappropriate as a citation in any case), which anyway I think could not have been held as a 'reliable source' by WP standards. But if any editor does wish to consider restoring any aspect of the previous input, I believe a more acceptable source, without taint of COI, could be this review in Seen and Heard International.--Smerus (talk) 02:48, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Seen and Heard International is an internationally recognised publication, and on that basis have added the citation. Ceoil (talk) 02:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe so, but The Cockpit had a performance in London well before this [1], so it looks like it may not be correct. Then there's Opera Holland Park. - Bilby (talk) 03:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For User: Bilby's information, and to discuss the issue as he requests: The Cockpit performance was an experimental one-off indoors performance with an invited audience for the benefit of DCMS (see here - a bit more useful than the citation given which is not accessible to anyone without a subscription). It was not a public production with tickets for sale, but a trial execrise with an inivted, very small, audience. The Holland Park event, as the cited article makes clear, was a concert of opera and operatic excerpts, and not a production of an opera. These seem to be red herrings. Perhaps Bilby or another editor may like to reconsider Bilby's tag in these circumstances?--Smerus (talk) 06:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So technically, the first opera performed in London since COVID-19 may have been performed at The Cockpit; the first operatic performance may have been by Holland Park, the HGO may have the first public outdoor opera in London, and Glyndebourne having teh first public outdoor opera in the UK. Do we have a better source than what we have? I'm not saying it wasn't, it is just that the performance at The Cockpit and the one at Holland Park were also described as the return of opera to London (with better sources), so I guess it depends on how you define what consitutes opera's return. Some care seems warranted in getting this right. - Bilby (talk) 08:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It would I think be correct to say that this was the first public performance of an opera in London since....Your opinion of wihch sources are 'better' than others are of course just your opinions, to which you are undoubtedly entitled.--Smerus (talk) 10:45, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That may be ok, but I'd like to be cautious. Especially given that we currently have four different events claiming to be the first opera performance since COVID-19, and very little coverage to go on. - Bilby (talk) 10:53, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, there is not a single source Bilby has advanced supporting a claim of an earlier public perfromance of an opera. There is, however, a source which says this was the first - If later evidence conteracts the source I have cited, then the claim can be simply removed in an edit. But in any case imo this matter shouldn't belong in an article on me, but in the article on HGO which, as editors will see on its talk page, apparently also gives Bilby concern. I don't know or understand in which incarnation I amy have offended Bilby, but I remain astonished at his deep attention to my world.
But as Bilby apparently does accept the authenticity and reliability of 'The Stage', which he used to mention the Cockpit's non-public experiment, perhaps he will accept this from the same journal - "London opera emerges stylishly from lockdown with Hampstead Garden Opera’s timely production of Holst’s chamber piece....Death, a cappella, announces his arrival – and the return of staged opera to London – in the opening bars of Holst’s compact opera Savitri". --Smerus (talk) 11:11, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I find this habit of responding to my comments but only refering to me in the third person as odd, but so be it. However, in regard to The Cockpit, The Stage included the quote "The Cockpit is open after the first post-lockdown opera in the UK". I think you are probably right, and if we word it as the first public performance of an opera in london we're fine. But we need to remain careful given the situation. - Bilby (talk) 12:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like I need to fix the above. Apparantly the Tête à Tête performance at The Cockpit was to a public paying audience [2], but the HGO performance might still be the first full opera. This is unfortunately complex. - Bilby (talk) 12:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Bilby, I think you are on the right lines. Cockpit staged a single, one-off, show of extracts from operas. It can be therefore said, with the support of the Stage and Seen and Heard articles, that HGO staged the first post-COVID public performance in London of a complete new opera production, with a run of 8 performances. As mentioned above, I don't in fact see any reason for associating me with this, I would much rather that somebody included it in the HGO Trust article without mentioning my name, which seems superfluous. Best,--Smerus (talk) 18:16, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
