Talk:Deep state in Turkey

bad article

this whole article is written by some illterate, it has no theme and has no focus!

was it written in turkish and translated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.24.13.55 (talk) 17:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I replaced the misused instance of the word "refutes" with "contradicts". I agree, this article is bizarre nonsense and doesn't belong on Wikipedia.

Conspiracy Theory

This article proposes some hearsay and popular conspiracy theories(some makes sense and some not, but none of them are proven) about Turkey's political history, as solid facts. But none of these allegations could be proven yet. Language of this article should be changed so that people who are not familiar with Turkey would not be lead to believe that those conspiracy theories are solid truth. And, there should be better sources. All this article got is some newspaper articles which onlşy reflects personal opinions and theories of the columnists. This article needs a reality check with an unbiased eye. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.184.40.73 (talk) 05:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Move Proposal

The literal translation "Deep state" doesn't make any sense. This should either be merged into the English equivalent Stay behind, or should be renamed to "Derin Devlet" if the subject of the article will be solely about the Turkish stay-behind organization. Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 23:51, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a peculiar translation, but one that has gained traction (in the Anglophone press), so it is best to keep it. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 22:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

"Stay behind" is a completely different concept from that of the Turkish "Deep state". Meowy 01:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Adoniscik's and Meowy's points. However, Kerem's implied point is correct, and we should add to the article with examples of deep state actions and existence other than from Turkey. E.g. Gladio in Italy, the assissantion of Prime Minister Moro, Peter Dale Scott's thesis, etc. (having said that, just yesterday I added another Turkish section).--NYCJosh (talk) 15:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If anyone (who reads Turkish or otherwise) would like to add a photo, for example, of one of accused Turkish generals, or better yet one of the Turkish generals together with one of the organized crime figures, now being tried in Turkey for bombings or murder plotting, please add this to the article.--NYCJosh (talk) 15:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

That is not true. The reason we use the English translation is WP:NAME#Use English words. This article is solely about the Turkish phenomenon. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 19:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I support the move/rename. Deep State is a general term for extra-legal undemocratic (mostly military) perpetrators of "false flag" terror and media deceptions for control over the population and lawmakers. The USA, Germany, many countries have (had) such unseen forces. Stay Behind is also the wrong term for them. Deep State is exactly right and used in this context in academic literature. The recent developments in Turkey are only what earlier happened (less publicly) in other European nations. Turkey has to do it very publicly because the infestation of the power-structures is so great and it wants to be seen doing the clean-up in light of the clean up being a precondition of EU membership. 203.100.214.118 (talk) 04:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Incidents

Should we move incidents whose instigators we now know to their respective articles (such as Counter-Guerrilla, or CIA activities in Turkey), and leave the unsolved ones here?

I moved the pertinent incidents to the Counter-Guerrilla article, but the Background and Admission sections still need to be untangled from the Counter-Guerrilla. I am not sure how best to proceed. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 17:53, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The Deep staten (turkiska: derin devlet) sägs vara en grupp inflytelserika odemokratiska sammanslutningar inom den turkiska politiska systemet, som består av höga element inom underrättelsetjänsten (inhemska och utländska), turkiska militären, säkerhet, rättsväsen, och maffia. Begreppet djupa staten på samma sätt som en "stat i staten". För dem som tror på dess existens, den politiska dagordningen i den djupa staten innebär en trohet mot nationalism, korporatism och statliga intressen. Våld och andra påtryckningsmedel har historiskt varit anställda en stor del förtäckt sätt att manipulera politiska och ekonomiska eliten och se särskilda intressen uppfylls i det skenbart demokratiska ramen för det politiska landskapet. Fd presidenten Süleyman Demirel säger att utseende och beteende i (främst militära) elit som utgör den djupa staten, och arbeta för att värna nationella intressen, är formade av en förankrad övertygelse, ända till minskningen av det ottomanska riket, som landet är alltid "på randen".

Ideologin i den djupa staten betraktas av vänstern som anti-arbetstagaren eller ultra-nationalistiska, av islamister som anti-islamiska och sekulariserad, och av etniska kurder som anti-kurdiska. Som påpekats av förre premiärministern Bülent Ecevit, den mångfald av åsikter återspeglar en oenighet vad som utgör den djupa staten. En förklaring är att den "djupa staten" är inte en allians, men summan av flera grupper som antagonistically arbete bakom kulisserna, i strävan av sin egen dagordning. Rykten om den djupa staten har varit utbredd i Turkiet sedan Ecevit mandatperiod som premiärminister på 1970-talet, efter hans uppenbarelse om att det finns en turkiska grenen av Operation Gladio.

Till främmande observatör, det turkiska tron på den djupa staten är ett intressant samhällsfenomen, synes baseras på ett sammanflöde av fakta och konspirationsteorier. Många turkar, inklusive valda politiker, har uttalat sin övertygelse om att den "djupa staten" finns.

Freemasons

It would be interesting if any authors were able to try and find a link between the deep state and the secret society of the Freemasons. There is a Masonic group called the Grand Orient of Turkey that shares much of the deep state's ultra-nationalist and revolutionary ideology. This group, which is similar to radical European Masonic associations such as the Grand Orient of France, could perhaps correspond to the typical description of the deep state. ADM (talk) 09:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Where's the contradiction?

"The ideology of the deep state is seen by leftists as being anti-worker or ultra-nationalist; by Islamists as being anti-Islamic and secularist; and by ethnic Kurds as being anti-Kurdish.[6] As pointed out by former prime minister Bülent Ecevit, the diversity of opinion reflects a disagreement over what constitutes the deep state.[7]"

I don't see any real disagreement or contradiction here.

An ultra-nationalist state is intrinsically anti-worker (as workers wish to divert profits from things like militarization to things like health care or wages), can be anti-Islamic (Islam would be a competing loyalty and is outwards focused, if it cannot be co-opted - compare religion in Communist countries), obviously wants to be secularist (secularism comes with bonuses like inventing the atomic bomb; religion, not so much), and is adamantly opposed to any diminution of the central government's authority or the country's territory (a Kurdistan would do both).

These aren't even mere plausible suggestions, but historical facts; we could see all of them in operation in, say, Nazi Germany or Maoist China. Presumably Ecevit is not being stupid enough as to claim that they are contradictory, but what point exactly he was making I cannot see. --129.49.7.126 (talk) 17:12, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The "Deep State" pertains to or describes an American phenomena - NOT TURKISH!!!

The definition of the term "deep state" needs to be re-written as a general term, with links to country-specific wiki pages, because certainly it is not commonly applied (as in this case) to Turkey. It is well known that many believe that this "Deep State" also exists in the United States, for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.158.159 (talk) 12:27, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Deep state originally referred to Turkish wrong doers but agreed, it is used to refer to other actors in other states. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:11, 7 August 2016 (UTC)