Talk:Dhikr

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 10 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jbstone09. Peer reviewers: MicahDMillan.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added[edit]

added . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 20:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Therapeutic effects[edit]

"Muslim inmates are allowed to utilize dhikr beads for therapeutic effects (see, [1])." ... === what does this refer to, a prison, a state, the US? please clarify, otherwise it's a useless detail. thx. (user: saskialouise)

Major POV issues[edit]

I was quite shocked upon initially reading this article; whoever wrote this current version didn't even attempt to present it in an unbiased manner. The article states in clear language that certain methods of dhikr are allowed even though it also notes that this is disputed. It is not the job of a Wikipedia article to decide whether or not this practice is acceptable, but rather to inform readers of it and showcase all opinions about it, both for and against. MezzoMezzo 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tagged for clean-up[edit]

I have tagged this article for clean-up, specifically the introduction. Why? Because the introduction to this article ends mid-sentence. What was it that was originally intended to be said? In any event, it needs to be corrected. --Sleckronmich (talk) 13:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article absolutely needs cleanup with regard to the spelling of the word dhikr. There are well over 30 instances where the word is incorrectly spelled thikr, in flagrant disregard of all norms of Arabic transliteration. -- 7/11/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CF44:A3B0:18F4:CA2C:1DE0:7AD9 (talk) 05:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair it probably needs more than just a clean up. I don't think there is any point launching into differences of opinion right from the beginning, and is there really a need for such a detailed exposition of the hadra with musical scores and everything? That statement about beads in prison is also very random. Baba farouq (talk) 23:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hadra Score - why on earth do we need it?[edit]

Hyacinth, would you please explain why the score is needed on this page? On a page about the hadra, fine, it might work, but dhikr is far broader than the hadra alone, and this is such a specific detail of a specific type of hadra as practiced by an unknown Sufi order in Turkey (it does not resemble the hadras of North africa or the Shaam region). Secondly, apart from smelling of a particularly 'orientalist' approach to describing the hadra, it's pretty useless as there's no indication of the meter, and the quavers and whatnots don't even add up. what's the point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baba farouq (talk • contribs) 14:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First of all: Wikipedia:Verifiability.
Secondly, I apologize if you are unable to read music, but that isn't my fault or a reason to remove notation.
Lastly: The notation and text is cited information about something that is part of the dhikr. It isn't, nor does it state, that it is only practiced by an "unknown Sufi order in Turkey" the name of which is then given. Rather it states that in Turkey the name of the ceremony is different from that of primarily Arabic countries, the name of which is given. Since there is no meter given no "whatnots" needs to add up to anything, and there is no reason to think that they should. Hyacinth (talk) 22:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should maybe read from a wider and more authoritative set of sources. Put plainly, dhikr is not music. Describing it in terms of a meditative or devotional practice would be more accurate, of which musical elements can be used in certain settings, sometimes, but that's not what it's about. Having a score on the page is hugely misleading, however verifiable your source is. What you have described is a very specific detail within a particular type of dhikr ceremony in Turkey somewhere, probably a Jerrahi gathering, which you say is worthy of mention becuase it goes by a different name. Zikr al-kiyam is actually Arabic term and not Turkish, it just means making dhikr while standing, and even if it were Turkish I really don't understand why that would make it noteworthy. What would be worthwhile rather, after a thorough discussion of what dhikr is actually about using sources such as Ghazali who were authorities on the subject, would be descriptions of dhikr circles across the Muslim world, including the hadras of North Africa, the Levant, Sudan, Iraq and Turkey, Mawlid gatherings of East Africa, Yemen, Indonesia etc., the almost theatrical dhikr gatherings of Kurdish Iraq where murids are pierced with daggers and so forth, then the naqshabandi and qadri dhikr gatherings in the Indian subcontinent. After that you could go into a detailed discussion about musical forms, scales, modes, maqams or whatever. Just out of interest, are you able to hear what the hadra would sound like from that score? Baba farouq (talk) 00:33, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why someone who has yet to cite a source regarding the issue is telling me to read more. Hyacinth (talk) 08:48, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia text does not connect the score and the specific ceremony in Turkey. The Wikipedia text does not say dhikr is music. Hyacinth (talk) 09:20, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A good reference for a solid overview of the subject would be Kojiro Nakamura's book on Invocations, he is professor of Islamic studies in Tokyo university, and the book is a translation of a chapter of al-Ghazali's Ihya. The introduction has an excellent discussion on the subject. I'll try to use it to expand the article at some point, but I've not got a lot of time to devote to wikipedia right now. By all means if you or any other wiki editors have access to Nakamra's work add some content to the article. Another good reference is Nawawi's kitab al adhkar, book of dhikrs, which is only available in Arabic right now, however Turath of London are publishing a translation, not sure who is translating it, but it is being edited by the curator of Persian and Turkish manuscripts at the British Library so will be a strong reference point when it is released. Baba farouq (talk) 11:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, how do we proceed? I would like to delete the score since this page is about dhikr and not music. Baba farouq (talk) 12:02, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hyacinth, are you able to confirm that reprinting the score here does not constitute a copyright violation? kashmiri (talk) 07:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Music??[edit]

Do you think maybe this piece of music 'Ishmael' from the CD 'Tears and Laughters' by Abdullah Ibrahim also known as 'Dollar Brand' might fit in here?? Abdullah Ibrahim P.s.: You can find it in YouTube.--207.249.136.254 (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC) --207.249.136.254 (talk) 19:06, 10 June 2010 (UTC)--207.249.136.254 (talk) 16:56, 28 June 2010 (UTC)--207.249.136.254 (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC)--[[Spec--Sinallah (talk) 16:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)ial:Contributions/189.136.151.128|189.136.151.128]] (talk) 00:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dhikr is well-rounded. There are many different musics and dance for dhikr. Optionally heavy metal, techno, pop, spanish etc.
Techno dhikr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bEbdYCFqUs
Pop dhikr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCeRUhLUSm8
Heavy Metal dhikr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dHJuqUDncY
Funny spanish dhikr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBhWFcGl1Cc La ilahe, la ilahe, ya hu... :)
And dance in trance, dance with demons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl5Qx4M3jIE
Dog man dhikr, crying dhikr, demonic dhikr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D640lTen1HM
--Sinallah (talk) 16:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm the same person who created this subtitle; could you be so kind to include the aforementioned Ishmael Abdullah Ibrahim Dollar Brand in YouTube?? Cause I thought it was sort of 'blacklisted' in here (Wikipedia). P.s.: I returned to this article trying to fin the difference with 'Adhan'.- 02:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)--189.206.56.126 (talk) 16:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bias and needless exclusion[edit]

I, too, think this text is too restrictive and not in accordance with Wikipedia's criteria for un-partiality. Others have commented on this (notably MezzoMezzo) but so far little seems to have been done about it. From Indonesia to the west coast of Africa, on all continents in fact, people practice what they themselves call 'dhikr' (or zikr); as can be expected from such a wide range, the form this practice takes varies considerably. I understand why some may feel that a certain way is the only 'right way' to do dhikr, and that some other practices may not rightfully be called dhikr. However there are other, more suitable, platforms to defend this point of view; I do not think it is the task of Wikipedia to take this stand. Rather, I think, the article should point out that there are many different forms of what is - here I agree - essentially the same practice. From loud and very physical, through melodious and chant-like to meditative and/or silent. Practiced communal or in isolation. With words or without or in silence. I'm not saying that the form as described in the article may not be called 'typical'; it well may be. I'm just saying, give other forms 'some space', either in a literal sense, or by at least formulating the text in a way that leaves other options open. Maybe, hopefully, adherents to other traditions will be more stimulated to expound on their way of practising Dhikr than the current text does. If some feel that some of these practices should not be called dhikr, then that, too, can be be noted. (Although it is, i.m.h.o., a truism.)

Then: the term 'sunni islam' is mentioned many times in the article. The wording suggests Dhikr practice is exclusive to Sunni muslims, which it is not. Propose to strike the word 'Sunni' whereever it appears in the article.

Instead, it would, imho, be more helpful to point out the link between dhikr and sufism. Sufi's are to be found among all islamic traditions, and even outside of Islam. Moreover, sufi's, being (or aspiring to be) mystics, are notoriously averse to central authority and dogma as well as loyal to their line of teachers, which may explain the rich diversity in the forms dhikr practices can take.

Thus, for the first paragraph, I propose: "Dhikr [...] is a devotional act in the sufi tradition, typically involving the recitation of the Names of god and of supplications taken from hadith texts and Qur'anic verses. Essentially, the practice of dhikr is a form of prayer or meditation in which is expressed the remembrance of god, either within or overtly. This may come in the form of (communal) recitation or simply always remembering god in one’s heart. The word dhikr is commonly translated as "remembrance" or "invocation"." (Note that I even avoided words like 'Islam' or 'muslim', as I think not any religion can claim copyrights on the essence of Dhikr practice. As Jalal ud'din Rumi wrote: "Not Christian or Jew or Muslim, not Hindu, Buddhist or Zen. Not any religion or cultural system.")

Origins[edit]

The title of this paragraph suggests a historical view. That is problematic: from the point of view of a historian I can see no justification for the claims in the text; in fact, I think it highly improbable that the practice of Dhikr was only established as a consequence of Qur'an texts. But why quibble about it; this is a theological article and I would propose to leave the 'origins' to historians and anthropologists and simply change the heading in: "The basis of Dhikr in Islamic tradition."

Methods[edit]

The article claims "The majority of Sunni Muslims deem Dhikr to be a private and silent worship and this is the widely accepted form of Dhikr." I think this is a factual claim which needs te be backed up with research findings or deleted. In addition, I think the wording is kind-of agressive-defensive. (I already proposed to strike the word 'Sunni' throughout.)

The rest of the paragraph is, i.m.h.o., dogmatic, prescriptive instead of descriptive, and insulting for minorities to boot. I think a Wikipedia article should not talk about differring ways to remember god in terms of 'sects' and 'heretics'. There are more respectful words, like 'small groups' and 'different traditions'. The word Bid'ah (or innovation) is, i.m.o., totally out of place as some, if not most, of these traditions trace their origin back to a millennium or more, or so they claim, and Wikipedia is not the place to tell them they are wrong, unless backed up by evidence. In my view, a sentence like "First, it is a private, individual and silent practice" should not appear in a Wikipedia article. For millions, Dhikr practice is not 'private, individual, silent' but communal, loud and even physical.

Essence[edit]

My main quibble with this article is, however, that it concentrates on 'form' (without even quoting sources) and says little if anything about the intent, about the essence of Dhikr practice. Yet, it is easy to find quotable texts about it on the internet:

"The first step to enter zikr is to ask for forgiveness for ourselves and forgive all those against whom we might hold any grudge. This is like wiping the rust off our hearts by letting go of the ego and letting God in. We wipe the dust of material life from our hearts and offer ourselves to the only True Being." (http://nazr-e-kaaba.com.amadeus.sui-inter.net/zikr.php)

"True Zikr makes you forget everything but the Beloved" (Hazrat Abu Sa‘id ibn Abi’l-Khayr, Persia, d. 1049 CE)

On the website http://nsso.info/articles/157-what-is-zikr I see an explanation of Dhikr which at the same time is much more broad and open, and goes deeper into the essential meaning. The wikipedia article could profit from extensively quoting these texts, I think.

Allah or god?[edit]

The article uses 'allah' as well as 'god'. I've often wondered about this: why do muslims so often prefer 'allah' in an english text? Be that as it may, I think the article should be consistent (except for literal quotations, of course) and I see no reason to use 'allah' in an English text. It only serves to support ideas about 'our god' and 'their god'. Mabel2 (talk) 20:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Chechen Sufi dhikr needs coverage[edit]

The Chechen ecstatic/trance dancing dhikr (as seen in these fascinating videos) is missing from and should be discussed in the Sufic section. — Scott • talk 20:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Google Searches dont use plural[edit]

Dhikr is a devotional act that praises Allah and emphasizes His glory by reciting one of His good qualities or names, or the name of His Prophet. Although it is not one of the five pillars, devout Muslims try to dhikr as much as possible, due to the rewards the Qur’an promises for those who perform dhikr. As the prophet Muhammed expressed, “Whoever recites the tasbih, (“I extol the holiness of God”) and the tahmid (“God be praised’) a hundred times, morning and evening, will have all his sins forgiven.” As a traditional form of devotion, repeating these prayers has been, and continues to be, important in Muslim cultures. The devout Muslims observed in this study, for example, repeated 4-5 thousand prayers a day. Zekenyan (talk) 17:51, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 11 June 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 18:10, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dhikr → Zikr – It appears that "Zikr" has long surpassed "Dhikr" as the common name of this term. See for example this Google trends link, and the following recent articles: [1][2][3]. I'm suggesting "Zikr" as opposed to "Dhikr" for consistency with WP: Common Name. SexyKick 19:01, 11 June 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 23:15, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. All the standard encyclopedias I'm aware of spell it as dhikr. That's the original Arabic form. Zikr appears in Persian, which doesn't have a dh sound and in languages where it was borrowed from Persian. South Asian languages belong to the latter category, and it's not surprising that zikr would be statistically trending upwards, given the large English-speaking population in the region. Regional trends are not in themselves a basis for WP:COMMONAME. Eperoton (talk) 03:06, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But even dhikr is pronounced zikr, what would be basis for common name here?--SexyKick 03:38, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Standard usage in English-language encyclopedias and other mainstream RSs. Eperoton (talk) 00:00, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name Should be changed to Zikr[edit]

This term in English is always pronounced and spelled as Zikr. Dhikr is not popular as even in Arabic it's pronounced as Zikr. There is no sense of Naming it as Zikr. I request for change. Zikrullah (talk) 05:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An example is word Tazkiah with ذ (z). You can't name it Tadhkia. Zikrullah (talk) 06:02, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dhikr[edit]

Urdu 175.107.236.37 (talk) 00:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Honors World Religions[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Its hard to make a username on this (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Lunarmoon13 (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Changes[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have made some additions to the article and would appreciate it if you could take a look.

I have added references for the Hadiths and the Quranic verses that appear in the sections, "Recitation of Quran As Dhikr" and "Hadith mentioning virtues (which I have renamed to: "Quranic Ayat and Hadiths Relating to The Importance of Dhikr")." I also added a heading for the "Tasbih of Fatimah," and added it as a subtopic under "Quranic Ayat and Hadiths Relating to The Importance of Dhikr."

I have also expanded more on the the Sufi practice of Dhikr with acceptable academic sources serving as references.

I have also added citations to areas where there were needed.

Once again, I would appreciate it if you could take a look at my edits and additions. Its hard to make a username on this (talk) 00:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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