Talk:Dillant–Hopkins Airport

History

I added the history section based on what appeared in Part 16 of Upper Ashuelot: A History of Keene New Hampshire ([1]). Unfortunately this only covers from '39-'52 so that's why I stopped at 1952. I know President Clinton actually flew into Dillant-Hopkins in the '90s, but when exactly I'm not sure. Think it was either the fall of '95 to the late summer/early fall of '96. If anyone knows any history past '52 that can be added then it should be as the section currently makes it sound as if the airport basically closed in the '50s. --annonymous, 12/23/09 12:56 AM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.4.228 (talk) 05:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the material and mentioning the source here. I've put the source info into the article as a reference. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Part 17 has a few more paragraphs covering the airport up to 1967. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, added from Part 17 to bring the history up to 1967. --annonymous, 12/27/09 5:23 PM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.4.228 (talk) 22:23, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Dead Links

Keene Public Library took down the old Upper Ashuelot site, so I did the search and have the reference links again. If anyone knows how to properly return them to the article, the links are http://keenepubliclibrary.org/sites/default/files/part16.pdf for part 16 and http://keenepubliclibrary.org/sites/default/files/part17.pdf for part 17. I'll try to add them myself, but am not sure I'll get the reference linking correct. --annonymous, 11/02/2010 3:03 AM EST. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.4.143 (talk) 07:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for hunting down the links! I've formatted the references. --Ken Gallager (talk) 12:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Should have probably checked things sooner to find out they'd changed things and the links were dead. --annonymous, 11/02/2010 10:53 PM EST. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.4.143 (talk) 02:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Move

This page was recently and without any discussion inappropriately moved from Dillant-Hopkins Airport with a hyphen to Dillant–Hopkins Airport with an endash. The overwhelming evidence is that airports are spelled with a hyphen, and it is my recommendation that it be moved back to Dillant-Hopkins Airport Apteva (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm open to alternatives. The sign at the airport says both Keene Airport and Dillan Hopkins Airport, and it's also often called Keene Dillant Hopkins Airport. But the hyphen is not a sensible alternative, since Dillant and Hopkins were two different people, and in WP style we connect names of two people with an en dash. I don't know of any "overwhelming evidence that airports are spelled with a hyphen"; I don't know of any style guides with special guidance for airport names. Dicklyon (talk) 05:12, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

A review of the RM at Sea-Tac shows more than overwhelming evidence. Style has nothing to do with choosing a name. There will not be much available for a small airport like this, but for ones like Seattle-Tacoma or Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport there are thousands of references available. For a small airport, though the FAA is probably the most reliable source to use. In this case, clearly Dillant-Hopkins.[2] Apteva (talk) 23:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Didn't Talk:Seattle–Tacoma International Airport#Requested move reject both your theory that one can't use en dashes in proper names, and your theory that airport names are special, and the idea that WP styling is determined by sources, and support our use of WP styling as determined by WP:MOS? My impression was that it did. Why is there still any argument over changes that move things toward alignment with the MOS? Dicklyon (talk) 01:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

No. That move close is under review. And will be reopened if not overturned. MOS does not determine titles. TITLE does. Apteva (talk) 20:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

We're discussing a difference in styling, not a difference of name; "will be reopened if not overturned" sounds like a threat of continued disruption. The close has clearly been endorsed by all reviewers already, in spite of your continuing rants there. Your WP:IDHT attitude is tiring. Dicklyon (talk) 22:28, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

The appropriate action if someone thinks an article should have a particular name is to suggest it. If an RM fails, the normal procedure is to find out why, and at an appropriate time, re-introduce it as a second RM. To do otherwise would be detrimental to WP, and allow errors to go uncorrected. Other than the issue of prohibiting endashes from titles, which was brought up in 2007, if a majority of books use an endash, I have no problem using an endash. If a majority use an emdash I have no problem using an emdash. But to even suggest punctuation that is not used by a majority of publications is questionable at best. Apteva (talk) 01:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. On the two supports: "all airports use a hyphen" is not backed up with evidence and is shown by Kwamikagami to be untrue; "most familiar to readers of English" is unconvincing as I see nothing unfamiliar in the page name. DrKiernan (talk) 15:32, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

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Dillant–Hopkins Airport → Dillant-Hopkins Airport – Rv undiscussed move. All airports use a hyphen, not an endash. Apteva (talk) 14:25, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose for the reason given. Apteva's claim is simply false. Many airport names have dashes, something Apteva has seen elsewhere. Apteva has demonstrated elsewhere that he does not understand how dashes are used. Now, it's possible a hyphen should be used here based on WP:ENDASH, but Apteva has not made that argument. The airport itself can't make up its mind how the name should be punctuated. Discussion should probably take place at the MOS, where people are most likely to be familiar with such details. — kwami (talk) 18:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
• This looks like the proper name of a single entity, which should carry a hyphen according to WP:ENDASH. Our MOS gives Wilkes-Barre as examples of hyphenation when a single entity is named after two persons. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. — kwami (talk) 00:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking the airport is more like Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth than like Poland-Lithuania or Wilkes-Barre. Dicklyon (talk) 00:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

We'd certainly have a dash in Dallas–Fort Worth Airport (though that article chooses a slash). To me, that's more like Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. But you could argue this one either way. — kwami (talk) 01:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Argue? Certainly? This is not a punctuation usage question. This is not a question of what we think should be or could be or might be used, it is simply a matter of determining based on our criteria for choosing titles, what the most appropriate title is - and that answer is clearly a hyphen, in this case. DFW has a slash as supported by their website "Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport", but if it had a "dash" by dash that would actually mean "hyphen" as to most people when they say dash they have no clue that a hyphen and a dash are different characters. Apteva (talk) 05:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course this is a punctuation-usage question. You're asking about the usage of hyphen vs dash, which are both punctuation. If the MOS supports a dash here, we should use a dash. If it supports a hyphen, we should use a hyphen. That's what the MOS is for. You haven't shown it is "clearly" anything, since your stated reason is spurious. — kwami (talk) 05:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

And with that we can agree that we disagree. I am not going to engage in a circular conversation. I frankly have 4,000,000 other articles to work on instead. Move this one back and we can come back to this topic later. Apteva (talk) 05:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The move was in line with the MOS. You haven't given a reason that it should be an exception. — kwami (talk) 06:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per kwamikagami's arguments above. This is just another case of Apteva carrying on an anti-MOS anti-dash campaign based on an odd theory about proper names, now refocused on airport names. It has gone on too long. Dicklyon (talk) 15:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Support per WP:ENDASH and WP:MOSPN. The guidance on proper names states but as a general rule uses the name which is likely to be most familiar to readers of English. While we may need to stylize within an article to adhere to our style guide, that does not mean we have to force the title to one that is not normally used. Vegaswikian (talk) 04:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it does. Title and text are formatted the same way. We don't use British spelling for the title and American for the text, for example. — kwami (talk) 05:53, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per MOS:ENDASH. I don't see where MOS:PN says anything about punctuation used in the names. WP:TITLE points to the MOS for punctuation, it also listing Wikipedia:Manual of Style (article titles) in it's see also section. That section specifically states "The Manual of Style applies to all parts of an article, including the title. See especially punctuation, below. (The policy page Wikipedia:Article titles does not determine punctuation.)". Which states implies to me that titles also need to adhere to our style guide. PaleAqua (talk) 06:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• I have looked at thousands of airport names and of them found exactly zero that use an endash. I have found many that use a hyphen, some that use a spaced hyphen (space hyphen space) and a few that use a slash (/). The test is, do a majority of publications use a hyphen, slash, dash, or whatever. Secondly, what is the official name? Apteva (talk) 20:07, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

If you wish to change the MOS, then you should start a discussion on changing the MOS. This is not the place for it. As for the official name, it's "Dillant~Hopkins". The punctuation is not defined, as you can confirm by going to their website. Few airports have set punctuations. Dallas~Fort Worth, for example, occurs with a dash,[3] hyphen,[4] space,[5] and slash.[6] That's a stylistic issue, and is handled by the manual of style. The question here should be whether, given that we use dashes, an en dash is appropriate in this case.

The spaced hyphen, BTW, is a typewriter substitution for a spaced en dash. Spaced hyphens are never used in good typographic style.

BTW, I am not opposing returning this article to its former name. I only oppose the reason you gave, which is faulty. If people decide that, say, an en dash should be used for Dallas–Forth Worth but is not appropriate here, then I would have no problem with moving it back. — kwami (talk) 21:01, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Dallas/Ft Worth is not a good comparison - it clearly uses a slash. To my knowledge, the only combining punctuation used in any US airport is a space, a slash, and a hyphen. I certainly have not seen an endash, tilda, star, or any other punctuation. As to some of the airports in other countries, I have looked through a list of 9,000 airports and so far have not found even one that used an endash. Actually I do not even need to say so far, because I did a search for an endash and there are none. All of the airports that we have named using an endash need to be moved to using either a space, slash, or hyphen. Apteva (talk) 05:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

No, they do not. Dallas–Ft Worth uses a dash. Or a slash. Or a space. Or a hyphen. Minneapolis–St Paul uses a dash. Or a slash. Or a space. Or a hyphen. Manchester–Boston uses a bullet! This is a matter of style. If you want to void the MOS, this is not the place for the discussion. — kwami (talk) 06:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.