Talk:Electric Slide/Archive 1

Origins

My question is, Ric, did you get "permission" from the guy or gal who "invented" the grapevine or any other move/step the slide is composed of? pffttt!

A lot of the article was original research or copied from other websites. A quick search does not locate anything I would accept as a definitive description of the origins. In the meantime, I've cut the article down to a version that is properly referenced and shouldn't be disputable. Any additional material around this subject should similarly be verified and sources provided. --Michael Snow 06:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Reverted a way too bold wholesale deletion. mikka (t) 08:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The article is the subject of a dispute, including legal claims being bandied about. Not just the origin of the dance, but even the number and sequence of steps is in question. That's why it needs to be properly referenced. Got any independent sources to offer for this information? --Michael Snow 17:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• The person with "legal claims" provides photocopies of documents at his website. Unless you prove they are fake, his information as good as any other's. Got any independent sources that contradict this information? mikka (t) 23:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Steps are described in dozens of popular dance books. What is your problem? What's wrong with existence of variants? Dances are not cast in stone. [Yes they are - when they are copywritten copyrighted - which this dance is - see Library of congress R Silver] mikka (t) 23:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

For contradictory accounts, see these descriptions. Even www.linedancermagazine.com, which Silver links to, lists two versions, one 18-step and one 22-step. I have no problem with there being variants, but do you know which one was being used when the fad was at its height? Right now, the article is relying on one person's largely uncorroborated account, and effectively takes sides with one point of view in the dispute. --Michael Snow 23:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Obviously you never danced this dance. The 18 and 22 versions differ only by the repetition of the "rock forward/back" piece. And the dance is danced now so that each and every step and hand wave may be improvisations, rather than mechanical repetition. You may step, jump, slide, wiggle, that's the whole fun. the described sequience is just a guideline. As for your referred website, it says nothing useful but "been around for many, many years". Whereas Ric's is a documented account. Feel the difference? I haven't heard about Ric until an april 2005 version of the article, but I don't have reasons not to believe him until someone actually proves that the steps were known before 1976. Some online baseless disagreements don't count. So relax, learn the steps and enjoy the dance. mikka (t) 00:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I wrote to Peter at Kickit in 1998 when he first listed the Electric Slide on his site and the answer I got was - "Get a life..Who do you think you are." At the time, there were only three sites listing The Electric Slide on the internet besides mine. The other two have since deleted their pages. This past week I called Bunny Wailer who states he will look through his records to get me an accurate date "Electric Boogie" was written and recorded but he remembers it was before Bob Marley's death in 1981. Marcia Griffiths and I also spoke and will be talking about doing a 30th Anniversary show in October. - Ric Silver,CID [[1]] 2/16/06

I don't have any way of knowing whether Mr. Silver choreographed a dance called the "Electric" or not.

I do know for a fact that we were dancing a dance called the Freeze prior to the 1989 revival of The Electric Boogie that made The Electric Slide so popular. The Freeze is only two counts different from the Electric Slide and conventional belief at the time was that the Freeze had evolved in into The Electric Slide. The "Documentation" provided on Mr. Silver's site is questionable at best consisting of an official registration of a 2004 video and a purported note from 1976 that says he was dancing "The Bus Stop" when he injured his knee. Someone at a later date had crossed out Bus Stop with the words "Electric Slide", which isn't the name of his dance anyway. [ The change is dated the same date as the notory signed it - and was part of the original letter - Lucille got confused as to which dance was mine and corrected it on 9/16/76 before getting it notorized and if my note had not told you that the Bus Stop was originally there - how would you have known? You really know how to sling the BS - don't you. We'll be seeing you in court very shortly - and I will be sueing you for slander and deformation of character as well - Peter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.233.243 (talk • contribs) 04:27, April 24, 2006 (UTC)]

I suppose if he really sues someone, we'll see what a court feels about his claims. In the meantime, it seems Wikipedia should have a note stating that the claim is disputed.

Done. Please sign your posts. By the way, how about the opposite: wait until someone sues mr.Silver? Someone definitely choreographed it; it doesn't look like a total folklore. mikka (t) 01:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't sign my name last time, Rusty Stone. I disagree about your thought that someone definitely choreographed it. Today that would be true, but back in those years, simple dances like The Freeze, Bus Stop and the Electric Slide arose all over the place. Dancers would simply start dancing and their friends would follow them. It might be a 16 count dance one month, then 18 counts, then 22 the next weekend. Teaching was completely informal in most clubs. Only the biggest places had any kind of paid instruction or choreography. Dances weren't considered "written" like they are now. If there were step sheets at all, they were ridiculous footprint on paper things. Each club had it's own local dances and a few spread farther. Virtually all of the earliest country line dances, as well as pop dances from the 70s and 80s have no known choreographer. Rusty Stone

• Whatever. I added a reference to the Texas Freeze, let them sue each other in court; surely we cannot decide. mikka (t) 01:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the Texas Freeze was a different dance. If I remember right it was about 40 counts long. It probably had some of the same moves, as most dances did. The dance that is very near the modern Electric Slide is called simply "The Freeze". It's identical to the Electric Slide except the rocks are done in 2 counts instead of 4.

Rusty

I'm Peter from Kickit (www.kickit.to) I have never, ever sent Mr. Silver an email that said what he claims. I have kept copies of all correspondence with him, and there is no instance where a message contained what he is claiming.

In case you are wondering, Kickit is the worlds largest archive of line dance choreography. Mr. Silver has sent email over the years demanding that we A) include his version of the dance at Kickit and B) delete the "incorrect" version of the dance. We have complied with A). His dance, in his wording, is included at Kickit, though he has changed the wording several times in the last few years. We find it exceedingly difficult to B) remove the "incorrect" version because we don't believe we have an "incorrect" version. As noted by others, the dance is wide open to interpretation and variation, and no variation is ever considered wrong by any serious dancer. Some or all of the steps are included in various combinations in many, many other dances. They are exceedingly basic steps, and therefore show up everywhere. We have done everything we can to comply with his requests, but do not in any way support nor deny his contention that he is the original choreographer of "Electric Slide".

Also, that was a pretty good trick writing to Kickit in 1996 since the site didn't exist until 1998. UPDATE: I see the original claim of when the contact was made has now been changed from to 1996 to 1998, which makes this comment seem odd. Ric's original claim was that he contacted Kickit in 1996. Ric's willingness to blatantly alter the public record like that may speak volumes.

- Peter (www.kickit.to)

Do not make legal threats on Wikipedia Daniel Case 14:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

 Regarding The Freeze - it is again a 16 step variation of the original 22 step dance.

Rusty - If you read my article on my homepage - you would know that I was asked to create a dance for the opening of a disco in NYC called VAMPS - a part of Beefsteak Charlies at 71st and Broadway - I had originally given the opening night party there and worked as the doorman/bouncer for several months before the owners asked me to create the dance - I was at the time dancing professionally with the Larry Richardson Dance company and had just finished dancing in the Off-Broadway production of Vinnette Carrol's "All The Kings Men" with the Alvin Ailey dance company. I taught the dance for several weeks before falling one night and tearing my cartiledge - and was off my feet for over a year.... The music - Electric Boogie - was a demo record given to radio DJ's and club DJ's in the city and one of my very close friends was the DJ at The Sanctuary - the original club off 42nd Street and he gave me the demo. The Bus Stop was the 1st line dance and I happened to be teaching it at the club as well and when Lucille wrote the letter for me for the Workmen's comp office (my employer's tried to get out of paying for my claim by stating that I was not an employee and I got Lucille to write the letter to overturn the decision)she mistakenly wrote The Bus Stop - which she changed by hand and it is dated and the entire letter is notorized (1976). The choreography in total is at present at the registry office and I should have the new registration within a few weeks. Ric Silver

In any event, it seems to me we're talking about a number of different things. "The Electric" is apparently a 22 count dance written by Ric Silver. He should retain full rights to that dance. Unfortunately, "The Electric" hasn't been used in any money making fashion, so the rights currently aren't worth much. "The Electric Slide" is an 18 count dance written by someone unknown to fit the breaks in the commercial Marcia Griffiths version of the Electric Boogie, which wasn't recorded until 1982. "The Freeze" is a 16 count dance with many of the same moves. "The Western Electric" has more counts. All of theses dances are different dances with different choreographers and different money rights. There are literally thousands of line dances consisting of nothing more than vines, steps and touches, some of them older than 1976. There are probably a hundred with the word "Electric" in the title. All choreographers borrow moves from other dances, including Mr. Silver, and there's nothing illegal in it. Unless Mr. Silver can produce something that shows he wrote an 18 count dance called "The Electric Slide", I would think that after 8 years of legal threats, we can put this claim to rest. - Rusty Stone I don't think so Rusty - this is still on-going and your statments here only show how dumb you really are. You have not done your research - IF you had - you would see that the other dances are variations of the original choreography and therefore illegal since the Electric a.k.a. The Electric Slide was compyright protected inb 1976. and again in 1994 when published to Tripod. - Ric Silver

I find it extremely hilarious that this is such a big issue to Ric. He whines about how he doesn't get the credit or compensation he is due and then he turns around and gives Marcia Griffith's version of the song away freely as an .mp3 on his website. I wonder if he has permission to do that? - Dave Casey

Yes Dave - I have spoken to Marcia and Bunny Whaler personally and have the right to do this. As for Mr Stone - Bunny states that the song and a demo version was released a few years prior to Bob Marleys death in 1980 in NYC. And if you look at the title of my dance - it is called The Electric aka The Electric Slide because everyone was calling it the Electric Slide because of the line in the song - "I'll teach you the Electric Slide" and no matter how many times I said - the dance is called the Electric - people would still come up and ask for the Electric Slide - which is why I added the aka about 3 months after it was created. And No - there were NO line dances prior to The Bus Stop and The Electric. Both were created in 1976 and I taught both at numerous clubs in NYC. At present the Original Choreography(not the shortened, simplified version) which can also be found at http://the-electricslidedance.com is at the Library of Congress being registered and the paperwork will be on the website by August 31st, 2006. Legal action will start immediately thereafter and the 18 step version will be challenged in court at that time as well as the 16 and 24 step variations. Ric Silver

Do not make legal threats on Wikipedia, see Wikipedia's WP:NLT policy. Daniel Case 14:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I am sure Ric did not mean suing wikipedia editors. The legal action mentioned is about dance copyrights (ie its usage in public), not about defamation or similar issues that usually pop up in article editing. Still, a policy reminder for inexperienced users is always OK. `'mikka (t) 18:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

So, if I'm out there doing the 18 step version of the dance, you're going to sue me? Now that's funny. I'll tell you something Ric, I'll do any version I damn well please and I don't believe that there is a judge anywhere in the world that is going to stop me. I can just hear your opening argument now. "You see your honor, Mr. Casey is dancing the Electric Slide and he is doing it all wrong. I demand he be ordered to cease his attempts at doing the dance and take fifty hours of remedial training so that he can perform it properly." After the judge picks himself up off the floor, after laughing himself silly, he'll throw this case out faster than a lawsuit charging that fast food restaurants are responsible for making people fat. Good luck Ric. I guess we all need windmills to tilt at once in awhile. - Dave Casey

You are misunderstanding here. You probably can dance whatever you choose, but you cannot teach it for money. `'mikka (t) 18:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What is this new claim that there were no line dances before Bus Stop? Shim Sham has been danced continuously since the Lindy was invented back in the early 20th century (well, not continuously, but you know what I mean). The Madison was wildly popular in the 1950s and still referenced in movie classics like Rocky Horror. Go to just about any folk dancing from just about any country in the world and you will find line dances in the style of that country that reach back in time, often to before the area's recorded history. I now see Ric is also claiming to have invented popping, locking, and break dancing. Cool.

Please give a benefit of doubt. Talk pages are written in haste and not always double-checked for sense. I don't think Ric is so stupid. He probably meant there were no line dances like Bus Stop before Bus Stop. Or, Ric, did you mean anything else by this phrase? `'mikka (t) 18:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Bus Stop: "Jump forward and shake your booty for 4 counts. Jump back and shake your booty for 4 counts. Lean right and do hitchhiker thumb for 4 counts. Lean left and do hitchhiker thumb for 4 counts. Rock-step, cha-cha-cha (in place) (twice). Turn 1/4 and walk backwards for 8 counts." What is meant by "like" Bus Stop? Line dances that short and simple are a dime a dozen. And many were being done for hundreds of years before Bus Stop. Electric slide is in that same short and simple format. Troika is a classic (and simple) line dance from Russia's not-so-recent past and it is still being done on a regular basis, a.k.a. Caribbean Connection and The Bull Shifts. There is a little routine done to Schottische music that has been around the Germanic community for hundreds of years that has recently been revived in the line dance community as "Cheeseburger." All of these are like Bus Stop.

Perhaps I should have rephrased the statement - The Bus Stop and The Electric were the two dances that started the current line dance craze.... which has been going strong since the 80's and worldwide Linedance Clubs have sprung up SINCE these two dances were originated....

Sure.... there are lots of "LINE TYPE" Dances - the Bunny Hop,

Most Greek Dances (usually done in a circle - but still a type of line dance)

I am not talking about folk dances. I am talking about the current counrty western (primarily) line dance craze....

Prior to The Electric, if you went to the disco on a Saturday night - eveyone was doing there own thing..... sometimes in couples, sometimes alone, sometimes in groups... but it took The Bus Stop and The Electric to get everyone on the floor - doing the same thing.

I really don't know what all this fuss is about - I merely wanted to try and correct a mistake - I created the dance and taught it and was laid up for two years and then went on with my career - I didn't notice that people were doing my choreography incorrectly until 1993, and have been trying ever since to get it right. But everyone wants to challenge me. They refuse to believe that they might have learned something incorrectly. If George Balanchine walked into Alvin Aiely's studio and noticed that the dancers were doing his choreography incorrectly - he would insist that it be done correctly... I am only asking the same.

Just because I'm only known for the creation of a line dance and a square dance (Texas 'Silver' Star), I'm not allowed to have my choreographer done the way it was created?

I never had my other dances copyrightprotected - I gave them away freely..... and I'm not saying that you can't dance it anyway you want. I am only saying that if you are making money off my work, then I should know about it, I should be paid my fee, & you should be teaching it correctly.

In regards to my opening statements before the judge - I will leave that for my lawyer, but there are two films done prior to 2000 that show the dance as a 22 step dance - and 6 films since 2000 that have it as an 18 step dance- numerous line dance videos teaching it incorrectly, internet sites that have the 18 step version still up, and more.... all of which will be hearing from Mr. Certilman soon. If sites like KickIt had only listened to me in 1998 when I first wrote to them - and at that time there were three (3) sites listing the Electric Slide besides mine - I wouldn't have this problem now... Ric

I have been watching the progress of this debate with slightly more than the average interest – having been (and still am) a choreographer of Line dance since 1968 (though that name was not given to the genre in those early day). I was also a well known club DJ in England from 1966 to 2000. Within my collection I have more than a small number of Reggae/Blue Beat/Ska Advance Copies from the late 60’s to early 1980’s. For clarity purposes - a demo is a (very) rough production copy without any refinements, for example possibly no backing vocals, strings or certain instruments. It may even be just an accoustic version. I am presumming thats Rics reference to a demo is in fact what is called (an) Advanced Copy.

Both Manchester and Liverpool during that same period had a number of clubs which specialised in playing the latest sounds direct from Jamaica and my record collection with its Advance Copies along with DJ skill and knowledge were well received in these clubs.

I cannot say for certain whether or not a (rough) demo (prior to original single release) of Electric Boogie exists, I strongly suspect though that Advanced Copies were produced at a later date (see below). These Advance Copies were/are freely given out to known DJ’s and clubs a few weeks or even a couple of months prior to the actual release date. A demo (as mentioned above) is totally different – and a lot rarer and only in exceptional circumstances do DJ’s let alone the general public get to listen and play a copy.

1). I therefore find it unusual to say the least that it is claimed that a (rough)demo (or even an Advanced Copy) was made of the song ‘Electric Boogie’ around the period in question – and yet not copyrighted until a good few years later. On the many Advance Copy records I have, there is a typed or printed (similar to a company label) wording stating 'Copyright Control'. On a couple of the raw (white label) Advance Copies I have, the title-artist-date of recording (sometimes the producer) etc along with the words 'Copyright Control' is typed (using a standard home/office typewriter?). There may of course be what are called private demo’s where a white label is used – but with handwritten information. I personally have never heard of more that three or four of these type of demo’s ever being produced for a particular piece of music. One of those was usually given to the artist (as a memento??)

2). As for the authenticity of when the dance was first named (as such) and not to what it may or may not have been originally danced to or demonstrated: It appears the only substantiating piece of evidence is the note Letter to Workman’s Comp(ensation) dated 1976. A question arises. Does the Workman’s Compensation Board have a duplicate copy – including alteration – within their records and that copy is also correctly rubber date stamped as to when they actually received it. They should have, if only to insure themselves against any further ensuing court cases.

3). Ric states “The music - Electric Boogie - was a demo record given to radio DJ's and club DJ's in the city and one of my very close friends was the DJ at The Sanctuary - the original club off 42nd Street and he gave me the demo”. The Jamaican Studio One/Coxone Records owned by Clement Dodd (who also 'discovered' and recorded Marcia Griffiths)moved to New York in the mid 1980’s (Coxsone's Music City 3135 Fulton Street, Brooklyn, New York, 11208) to allow the music to reach a wider buying audience. His shop was also an outlet for various reggae labels. Could it be at this time the demo (Advanced Copy) emerged – the date when the dance became popular,the move to New York and the official (and in extensive investigation - the only)release date (June 1989)of the song in America seem to coincide. It would also tie in to what I have mentioned in my opening paragraph regarding Advanced Copies (or promo/promotional copies as they were sometimes called) … and possibly enforce the commonly available information that: quote from Marcia’s own bio endorsed by the Lady herself – (and for the benefit of continuity)

Marcia gained solo international recognition with her monster hit “Electric Boogie.” This song was first recorded in 1982 and went to the #1 spot on the Jamaican charts. Sales continued over the years and in 1989, a Washington, DC Disc Jockey started playing it regularly and in no time, it caught on and hit the station’s regular rotation list. A new dance, the Electric Slide, was created from the “Electric Boogie” song and as a result, sales soared and the “Electric Slide” became popular all over the U.S.

The bio alone appears to cast doubt on Rics version of events – who else will be appearing in court. On a personal note I have to say the deeper one digs to gain factual information - the more anomalies are being found. It could in fact lean and bring into question if Ric did indeed choreograph any part of the dance called [The] 'Electric [Slide]and was his declaration to the US Copyright Office a false one.

4). Talking about variations. I originally came across a dance (now known and danced to as Black Velvet) in the early 1980's. Some time later (around 1992 or 3?) a dance with called Ski Bumpus(s) with identical steps but with the added attraction of a quarter turn appeared on the scene. I suspect that the turn was added to allow the original dance to be done as a no partner line dance, where as Black Velvet was (and still is) a sensual contra dance. But if you read below I would be more inclined if a debate ever arose to go with the dance I saw in 1983. The vast majority of Line dances in the late 60’s early-mid 1970’s mimicked the early stage dancing of Motown type groups and were one wall – obviously to keep facing the audience. On American tv these acts and their dance routines were shown on a regular basis and many choreographers could well have copied the style. Where as in the UK it was a case of once-in-a-blue-moon of seeing these acts, even though there were programmes such as Ready Steady Go and Top Of The Pops.

5). My recollection of the dance ‘The Bus Stop’ followed the words of the music by The Fatback Band. The dance was originally one wall and certainly no thumb hitches or ‘wiggles’ (I certainly never saw anyone doing those in the dance) The original version if I’m not mistaken was also shown on an early edition of Soul Train - any footage out there.

6). The Macarena – which is claimed to have been choreographed by a Venezuelan dance teacher has also been refuted (also on this site).

 - Mike Taylor (re-edited for clarity and with further factual information 24th September 2006)

There is a variation to the dance which Ric expresses can be done in place of the final step/count – the hop.

Ric states that a single or indeed a double Tour en l'air can replace the hop.

If there is no change to the right moving ‘Grapevine’, could Ric or someone with more experience than me explain how the dancer moves from the completion of the Tour en l’air [The dancer lands in the fifth position with the feet reversed] to the first move/step of the Grapevine which is ‘step right foot to right side’.

If you forget the positioning of the feet, the timing for just a single Tour en l’air would be (at least) equal to that of the ‘hop’. To turn the single into a double Tour en l’air, I would suggest, would throw the timing of the dance out. And if done with other people (in the customary line) there is a danger that the dancer to left will ‘walk into your space’ and more than possible, collide.

Now, taking into account the feet position after the completion of the Tour en l’air. The dancer would have to correct their balance by an adjustment of their foot position. This takes actual time. It is my estimate, after a number of practice ‘runs’ (I'm not too well versed in Ballet), that to include a single Tour en l’air, the dance would be extended to 23 or even 24 steps/counts. To include a double (which I did not try) would certainly turn the dance into a 24 step/counts version. Would this mean another variation [added steps/counts].. and another trip to US Copyright Office.

To be perfectly honest and based on my own knowledge and experience I would not recommend the vast majority of dancers to even contemplate trying to include even a single Tour en l’air within this dance simply on health and safety grounds. And from an artistic point of view – the move simply doesn’t gel with the rest of the dance (it is so out of place) or even the music anyway. – Mike Taylor

Ric, Could you please confirm by clarification or correction this statement from a previous posting: "......and had just finished dancing in the Off-Broadway production of Vinnette Carrol's "All The Kings Men" with the Alvin Ailey dance company." The only production of Vinnette Carroll's in 1976 (the year you are saying you choreographed the dance) was 'Your Arms Are Too Short To Box With God'. If this is the what you meant - then there a couple of things that don't seem to add up.

1)The production of 'Your Arms....' opened at the Lyceum December 1976 and closed some 20 years later in December 1996 - which makes it one of the longest running stage shows in American history - a fact one would not expect someone like you, to forget. Note the opening date.

2)The only refererence that can be found regarding the Alvin Ailey Dance company and a production of Vinnette's is (ironically) 'Your Arms..etc', but that was at the Alvin Theatre and in 1982 - and closed in November of the same year. - Mike Taylor

Ric, you mentioned earlier in the postings that you have been given permission by both Marcia and Bunny to allow people to download the music 'Electric Boogie' from your site. I hope you have their permission in WRITING and it HAS to be correctly dated. This is a legal requirement. The most obvious question(s) would be - 'How long have you have the music for download on your site' and (hopefully) 'does the date on the letter of permission correspond with that date'. It would be ironic if those same people decide to take you to court. - Mike Taylor

Well Mike - You truely are not an accomplished dancer if you have to add counts to the dance to complete the revolutions. Count 21 is a preporation step for the turn and you simply take off earlier to get around and land on 22. AND since you are taking off and landing on your left foot, your right foot is free to step off into the grapevine. The HARD part is getting your body - which is rotation counterclockwise, to reverse into the turn to the right as, if you have read the complete choreography, at the end of the dance, goes into single turns clockwise to the right. It takes a well trained Baryshnikov type dancer to complete these moves.

I do not have a written permission slip from Bunny and Marcia to allow the download. I have a verbal agreement and I downloaded the music from another internet site.

regarding All the Kings Men - Vinnette's Urban Arts Corp produces numerous shows per year - not all of which make it to Broadway - This was an Off B'way production. And since I was the only dancer hired at the New York Auditions of over 600 dancers, the choreographer used Alvin's 3rd string dancers to complete the dance corp. And if I stated that I had just finished danceing that show - I was in error as the show is listed and was done in 1982 (see the Off-Broadway Book). I was dancing with the Larry Richardson Company when I created The Electric. Please excuse the error - That was 30 years ago and I sometimes get dates confused.

As far as the demo/Advanced Copy, I really could not tell you which this was but it did have a white label, and Bunny stated to me that he thinks he still has a copy and is looking for it for me or the original lead sheets so that I will have documented evidence for all you disbelievers. As I have stated before, he stated that the song was written & recorded a while before Bob Marley died which was in 1980.

The Workmen's Comp board DOES have a copy of the letter on file in my folder as does Louise, who is going to court with me when that day arrives.

As far as Marcia's Bio and the list of events, she herself states that she was not sure of the exact dates or when the dance was created, and has been asking that question for years and has only relied on what she has been told by individuals who as it turns out had no clue.

I hope I have answered all of your questions. If you would like further clarification, please email me. A link can me found on my webpage [2]

By the way, I have been inforned by the Library of Congress that my registraion paperwork should be available within the next 10 days. 4/16/07

Ric Silver

Hi, Well you opened up with a very derogatory statement. - ”Well Mike - You truely are not an accomplished dancer if you have to add counts to the dance to complete the revolutions.” You are obviously unaware of my background and training so as that lack of knowledge is so obvious (I hope) I will let your remark pass.

Basically what you are saying (from your last post) is that the counter clockwise turn is NOT a Tour en l’air where the dancer lands in the fifth position with the feet reversed. By stating it was you not only confused me… but the many many people who have read your initial reply. Just prior to replying to your (above) post, I along with two other dancers went through the dance (again), this time applying the turn (but not as a Tour en l’air) . You are correct, it CAN be done within the timing, but a DOUBLE turn … sorry but a definite NO. Whilst I’m not a trained (or other) Ballet dancer.. one of the other dancers was and has been for a long time. She considered the move (in politeness) ‘difficult’ to execute within the timing (without disrupting the grapevine sequence). She also felt (as I did) that the move to be totally out of character with the rest of the dance.

Out of curiosity, the variation (turns) were they initially an integrated part of the dance – or added later. If they were added as a variation or an ‘add on’, this cannot be included as part of the (basic) dance that you say you have registered. Yes, I agree regarding the dates issue… that it was 30 years ago and that you sometimes get confused – we all have those sort of problems - but would a Court take a mistake like that as a ‘oh that’s alright… it doesn’t matter’ – I don’t think so. To be honest it creates a very very big question mark, but no doubt you will have the correct answers by the time it (ever) gets to Court (you would be surprised who reads this site).

A undated verbal agreement (you state – with both Bunny and Marcia) regarding the use of the music on your site is not legally binding in a Court of Law (either in Europe or America). As I stated before.. you HAVE to have WRITTEN permission from BOTH Bunny and Marcia. Even if you produced a telephone bill with their numbers on it, its is NOT proof of permission. I certainly hope you can prove that this ‘verbal’ permission was PRIOR to the music being used on your site –this may go some way to appease the Courts. – Mike Taylor 12th October 2006

You apparently have not looked at my webpage - the entire choreographic work is listed on a seperate page from the basic step configuration.

Obviously, neither you nor you lady friend are accomplished dancers, My troupe had not problem completeing two revolutions in the time allowed and one even did a triple The 21st step it the preportaion and the turn in the air is done between 21 and 22 - if you would look at my site - http://the-electricslidedance.com you will find a link to the complete dance choreography as performed in 1976.. as you will see - it was not added on or a variation. - the entire dance is laid out as performed originally and this is the choreography at is presently at the Library of Congress being registered. Ric Silver|23:59, October 27, 2006 (UTC)}}

What can one say, not only did you insult me but you also insulted a person whose dancing skills have been seen by thousands of people over the years. And even though she ‘retired’ from the professional stage some time ago, she is still in great demand for private tutorage.

One can only be mystified as to what you call ‘accomplished’. You obviously put yourself in that bracket – but feel that no one can live up to your rather 'mysterious'standards – let alone surpass it (whatever it is).

And once again, for all those people out there who have been reading this ‘saga’ with great interest you have proved that you are somebody craves attention – and you will use ANY means to get it. Many will have noticed – and it has already been mentioned before – that you are quite willing to ‘change the details of your story’ when facts are revealed by interested parties.

Because of what has gone on before, your willingness to alter your story to suit, your threats of law suits if anyone disagrees with your story and some of the wildest inconsistencies within each of your answers only a Court will be seen fit to see justice done. I certainly hope that when that day comes the general public will be notified so that they may be able to witness an end to this very sad pantomime. I will gladly book an Airline ticket so that I may also witness the event.

Just by way of factual information. You keep making reference to step 21 being a ‘preparation’ step. Of course it is… it is also the ‘preparation’ step for the ‘hop turn’. Anyone with a sense of musical timing can judge the beats per minute of the music (Electric Boogie) will know that you will not be able to do a double turn and certainly not a triple in the time allotted. By insisting you can, you are insulting the thousands of dancers out there who are more competent than you - and the millions who soon will be.

I have noticed, yet once again your un-willingness to tell anyone when you received the verbal permission of both Marcia and Bunny regarding the use of the music on your site. And by doing so you have proved once again that your ignorance is only matched by your arrogance.

Finally, I see you have started another ‘programme’ for recognition with a dance - that no one (other than yourself) has heard of – namely the Texas Silver Star.- Mike Taylor 30th October 2006

Mike - check the Country Music Awards Show - 1989 - where this dance was premiered. R. Silver

How many Masters classes in ballet has she taught??? I have taught many. Ric

The Triple turn is at the end of the dance and there is time alloted for it.

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This is the most interesting piece of ... I'm not even sure what word even comes close to what I am trying to convey. I merely came here to Wikipedia today to see if by chance there was a reference to the steps in 'The Electric Slide'. I have done the line dance a number of times, but had never been able to memorize it, mainly because a few of the turning steps always had me in the wrong place to continue. Oh, an aside here: I would say that if anyone else had a bit of trouble learning it like I have had and they stuck in their own little steps to keep them going within the routine, then taught 'that' version to others, I'm sure that has contributed to this controversy that seems to be going on over this little bitty line dance. Sorry Ric, I am by no means belittling your choreography, not at all. However, I am finding all of this a bit funny. I mean, we are talking about one line dance here (two if we also count this 'Texas Silver Star' which, sorry to say, I have never heard of, and I live deep in the heart of Texas) that was written at least 2 decades ago? Hasn't the time really passed to garnish much from the acknowledgement of having written it? I'm sure very little money will come your way because of it. And in the end, all I'll remember is this stink over who did what, how many actual steps are 'really' involved, etc. There are so many things out there that are either unacknowledged or attributed to more than one person, because media wasn't right there at the time showing the rest of the world what was happening at that very moment. Just because I don't know the exact creator of the thing doesn't stop me from enjoying the thing. Sorry, but this just seems like a dead issue to me, Ms. Jane Q. Public.

Collinsmp 18:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC) + - + - + - + - +

Regarding "Texas 'Silver' Star" square dance - premiered on the Country Music Awards show in 1989. It was stated on that show that it was the only square dance created in the last 50 years.... I never said it.... They Did! If you check my site - you will find that I created 5 dances - The Electric, The Robot, Lockin & Poppin, Breakdancing, and The Square Dance - The Texas 'Silver' Star. Regarding the music on my site and when I spoke to Marcia - my phone bill shows that the date was 2/11/06 Regarding the law suits - I have hired a new lawyer and he is going 50/50 with me on this action which he plans to start in front of a judge soon. Ric Silver NYCsDancer

Another new story, another claim of a new attorney. Still no lawsuits, still no real documentation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.169.102 (talk • contribs) 02:46, January 8, 2007 (UTC)

My question is, Ric, did you get "permission" from the guy or gal who "invented" the grapevine or any other move/step the slide is composed of? pffttt!

I thought I had stated all the facts that I needed prior to 30th October 2006. But a couple of things need to be added.

According to the copyright and registration offices in the USA, the dance ‘The Electric’ or ‘The Electric Slide’ - if as proclaimed - choreographed in 1976 (but not registered until 2004) would by now deemed as PUBLIC DOMAIN. As a side issue, if the dance had been choreographed on or after 1990 then there may be some legal claim.

There is also the question of the number of actual steps used to make up the dance. As there are built in and significant differences after every 22 steps it cannot be deemed that the dance is 22 Count or Step. If that were to be deemed acceptable then most of the dances that have been performed throughout the years in whatever genre you could think of would be open to claim and counter claim of ownership. For example: 4 Steps forward. 4 Steps backward. 4 steps to the right. 4 Steps to the left.. A very simple 16 Count/Step dance. If it was ‘open season’ I could register that dance and call it ‘The Walk’ and include after those 16 basic steps as many variations as I wanted or could think of. The list would only be as long as ones imagination. I could then be allowed to sue anyone using ANY of those step combinations. Can you now see how ludicrous the whole thing is.

Irrespective to ANY legal right Ric Silver has regarding the dance, one thing is for certain. The music (supposedly) used to create the dance was NEVER released or recorded in 1976.. and it was only released in America in the late 1980’s to coincide with a Tour Marcia was doing.. culled from an album released at the same time. Also, there were no rough demo’s (see earlier posting) of the song made by anyone else prior to Marcia’s original recording in early to mid 1982. – Mike Taylor 23rd February 2007

The laws have changed and copyright covers the life of the author plus 75 years. Ric Silver

Would like to know where you got your information from Mike - certainly not from Marcia or Bunny I have spoken to both and they state that Bob Marley played on the original recording and he died in 1980. Ric Silver

If you are referring to when the recording took place, then its obvious we differ. Could you please sign your postings so that not only myself but also others may see who has replied/posted. Mike Taylor(8th March 2007)

It's Obvious you don't have your facts straight Contact an expert - like Bunny Wailer - who wrote it - I have.... Ric Silver

MODERATION NOTICE

Please refrain from personal attacks. you have already shown your opinion about each other. Enough is enough. This is not a message board. You are supposed to discuss the article here, not each other. `'mikkanarxi 22:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. My apologies to those readers of this discussion - Mike Taylor 30th October 2006

NPR Story

An interesting note for anyone following this debate -- a story about Ric Silver was on NPR this morning [3]. Factual accuracy of the reporting is kinda questionable, though... it appears to be intended as a "fun" pop-culture piece. PenguiN42 18:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore - The Grapevine is a ballet step and "steps" are not copyrightable. When "Steps" are put together to form a "Piece" - that "Piece" is copyrightable. Regarding NPR - they called me to give an interview, as did Channel 8 WTNH out of New Haven CT and Black20. The Channel 8 article aired 2/14 & 2/15 and the Black 20 interview is pending. Regarding the permission from Marcia and Bunny - I have listed the date that I spoke to both of them previously. Regarding The Texas 'Silver' Star - unless your from CA - and are into Square Dancing - you probably would never have heard of it - but if you can get a copy of the 1989 Country Music Awards Show - you will. Regarding the Madison - check with my dance teacher - Danny Daniels. He is an expert in dance history. Ric Silver

Well, it looks like there finally is a lawsuit, but not the one we've heard about here. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.eff.org) has filed suit against Ric Silver. This stems from Mr. Silver's complaint to youtube asking for certain videos depicting the 18 count Electric Slide be removed. The EFF, representing the submitter of one of the videos, states that there is a "lack of similarity" between the dance on Mr. Silver's video and the dance on the Electric Slide video. They state that Mr. Silver has violated the law by "knowingly materially misrepresenting" that the youtube video infringed his copyright. The brief is at http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/electricslide/complaint.pdf . This one will be interesting to follow. (Rusty Stone)

Funny Rusty - I have not been served with any papers regarding this supposed case. Isn't that the way it usually works..Doesn't one get served by a Sheriff or something - so far I have not ...Ric Silver 4/15/07

This lawsuit was settled out of court by EFF asking Me to post a link to their page on mine. R Silver 5/21/07

(for clarification only) From EFF News: The man who claims to have created "The Electric Slide" has agreed to call off his online takedown campaign and stop threatening anyone using the popular line dance for non-commercial purposes. The agreement settles a lawsuit filed by EFF on behalf of videographer Kyle Machulis, who posted a concert video to YouTube that included a ten-second segment of audience members attempting to do the Electric Slide. Richard Silver sent a takedown demand to YouTube under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), alleging he owned the copyright to the Electric Slide and that the video infringed his rights. Mike Taylor 22nd May 2007