Talk:England v Scotland representative football matches (1870–1872)

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Last Sentence[edit]

The last sentence is incorrect - in 1873 only three of the Scotland players were Anglo Scots with the remaining eight coming from Scotland —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.124.220 (talk) 14:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

Note that this page is a merger of England v Scotland (1870), England v Scotland (1871) and England v Scotland (1872). See my reasons for merging at Talk:England v Scotland (1870). The merged articles may still contain some useful information that could improve this article - most notably, I think, these articles had the details of all players who appeared in these games. It is my intention to include those in this article too, but if people want to jump the gun and bring them in before I have time, that'd be great --Pretty Green (talk) 19:00, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

In identifying the names and details of many of the players who appeared in the pseudo-internationals, I am greatly indebted to the efforts of Andy Mitchell, without whose painstaking and thorough research for his biography of Arthur Kinnaird in particular and mid-19th century football in general, these details would have been lost in the mists of time. His contributions to various genealogical and football forums have also been invaluable. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 06:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You've also got to take some wiki-credit for getting this stuff onto Wikipedia and improving this article too ;) --Pretty Green (talk) 08:26, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Inconsistency[edit]

"The match was 0-0 when the teams changed end at half-time - a rule that The Sporting Gazette of Saturday 12 March 1870 described as new - but Scotland took a lead through a goal by Robert Crawford after England had removed their goalkeeper."

The Robert Crawford article says that Scotland took the lead because England's goalkeeper had been told to push higher up the pitch and was caught off his line - rather than been taken off entirely. Which is right? --86.185.63.22 (talk) 08:36, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem was with the word "removed" - match reports of that time were rather imprecise in their use of language. The English goalie was removed from the goal and asked to play in what we today call "upfield". Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 09:02, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unidentified players[edit]

I have been able to glean little or no information from online sources and my limited personal library about the following players: Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 06:09, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

William Bailey[edit]

  1. Played for Scotland on 19 November 1870.[1]
  2. Club: Civil Service
  3. Some sources list him as "W. Raffay"[2]
  4. He would appear to be William Heap Bailey (1847-1926), born in Derby, died in London.[3]
  5. There are two mentions of "William Heap Bailey" in the London Gazette:
    1. On 16 April 1880, he is mentioned as executor of Thomas Henry Dagg. Bailey is described as a Brewer of Burton-on-Trent.[4]
    2. On 24 July 1900, he is mentioned in respect of a petition to wind up Doherty Iron Castings Process Limited. He is described as a "gentleman". Other petitioners include Dugald Drummond, the locomotive engineer.[5]

Now identified as William Heap Bailey (1847–1926)

T.S. Baker [edit]

  1. Played for England on 18 November 1871.[6]
  2. Club: Clapham Rovers

Now identified as Thomas Southey Baker (1848–1902)

Thomas N. Carter [edit]

  1. Played for England on 19 November 1870.[7]
  2. Club: Eton College
  3. Described as "Captain of Eton College Eleven".
  4. He is listed several times in the "Eton College Register" [8] including as "Keeper of the Field" in 1870.

Now identified as Thomas Nevile Carter (1851–1879)

John Cockerell[edit]

  1. Played for England on 19 November 1870[9] and 25 February 1871.[10]
  2. Club: Brixton Athletic Club
  3. He would appear to be John Cockerell born 1846 in Camberwell.[11][12]
    1. A member of a family of "high class" coal merchants.
    2. Father was John Brand Cockerell (1814-1880).
    3. Married Jessie Green on 25 April 1872 at St Michael's, Chester Square.
  4. In his biography of Arthur Kinnaird, Andy Mitchell describes Cockerell as "an athlete who once defeated WG Grace in a quarter-mile race.(In the BlackheathSports in 1866.)"

Now identified as John Cockerell (1845–1937)

J.C. Smith[edit]

  1. Played for England on 5 March 1870.[13]
  2. Club: Crusaders
  3. He was educated at Westminster School, and was in the school football team for two seasons (1866-7 and 1867-8), but does not appear in the school register published in the 1920s. Played for Middlesex in 1867.[14]

Now identified as Giulio Cowley Smith (1849–1909)

Percy Weston[edit]

  1. Played for England on 18 November 1871[15] and 24 February 1872[16]
  2. Club: Barnes
  3. The February 1872 match report praises his "forward play".[17]

Now identified as Percy Weston (1852–1905)

Sources[edit]

The source for the correct names and biographies of the above players is Andy Mitchell's book published in 2012: First Elevens - The Birth of International Football ISBN 978-1475206845. Bikeroo (talk) 10:17, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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