Talk:Eric Greif/Archive 1

nn removal

my name is tom e and i have made several entries to the eric grief page. i have removed the nn (notability criteria guideline information placed by an editor) on several grounds. before mentioning them i would like to say that my interest came from the death metal record production angle as i own and enjoy albums of this music produced by eric grief. i am also a fan of death metal and in particular morbid saint and death. eric grief managed and produced these bands and many more. here in our part of the usa eric grief was quite known for being at the roots of this type of music and being part of the launch of metalfest in milwaukee, which many web sites claim is the longest running and biggest extreme metal festival of its kind anywhere. i remember seeing eric grief on tv a few times back in the 80's debating preachers who were trying to ban metal. the first ground for notability is that including him passes the search engine test. many old magazine articles can be found on the web and the death metal stuff is there at music sites. the second ground is that including him passes the verifiability test as i can grab these albums myself and read his name. it is for these reasons that i for one think he is notable and others might agree. no disrespect is meant towards the editor who added the nn.

Record Producer

I was cleaning up the Record Producer category, there are hundreds and hundreds of articles in that category and is growing all the time, so I'm trying to diffuse the category into sub-categories. I mistakenly thought that since this person was tagged as People from Calgary, he was Canadian. It seems he's American or produced records in America? I changed it to American Record producers for now. Any help sub-categorizing this article from those familiar with the subject would be appreciated. Dissolve 02:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Pointless

It does seem pretty pointless to spend all your free time putting people into sub categories when you don't know anything about them. "Canadian? American? Doesn't matter! What matters is that the Record Producer category is getting too big!". Sorry - that doesn't excuse allowing untrue (at worst) or merely possible (at best) information being allowed to stand for even one day. There does not appear to be anything whatsoever about Greif's citizenship on the net anywhere. In fact, articles mention him living in no less than three countries. This means what "kind" (i.e. his nationality) of producer Greif is may NEVER be known. What then?! All that is certain, for Wikipedia purposes, is that the guy is a record producer. Why not create the sub category "heavy metal record producers"? THEN you'd be certain. Or "record producers who are also lawyers". Or "record producers who worked towards the end of the twentieth century". Or "record producers whose name starts with an 'E'". Kinda pointless - like unnecessarily placing fair use warnings on the pages of photos that clearly have the appropriate licencing notice affixed. A Sniper 22:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

• Actually, if this information about nationality was added to the article, it would have been pretty clear. Since it's not there, it's confusing. Sorting people by nationality is actually pretty trivial for well written articles that follow WP:MOSBIO.

• It's pretty obvious that sub-categories are necessary in a categorical index, otherwise there'd be one category: People and it'd be impossible to find anyone. Feel free to create any subcategories you think are appropriate.

• Regarding WP:Fair use rationale, it's not like I created the guideline that every image uploaded requires a Fair use rationale and that any image with no rationale should be speedy deleted under WP:CSD#I6, I was just pointing it out to you. Dissolve 07:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that seemed like a rather rude response to an editor who was very polite and helpful. Why did you respond like that? What was the big deal? Just curious I guess. Thanks --Jackmantas (talk) 06:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Eire connection?

As far as nationality is concerned I studied with Mr. Greif at Lancaster in the UK. He claimed he was Irish (from the Republic) and said that Sinn Fein were sponsoring his studies. There were suspicions among many of the other students that this was untrue but it was more or less accepted for lack of any hard evidence to the contrary. In all the years he was there, no one I know who knew him had any idea of his previous history with music. 62.235.236.159

Wikipedia isn't supposed to be a place for individual research (and, of course, how do we know that the above info/allegation re: Ireland/Sinn Fein is true when a user is anonymous, identified only by an IP address in Belgium? Remember: content must be verifiable). However, there would appear to be an Irish connection for Greif. Several web sites mention his uncle dying "in Cork", and another few archives from "Irishlaw" suggest some connection to Ireland and Cork. Then again, is this even the same heavy metal fellow?? Henry in Henderson 209.59.43.117 10:19, 01 June 2007 (UTC)

I was at LU w/ Greif. 1st year there he did say he'd obtained stipend money from SF in exchange for some research but he never mentioned it again and eventually it wasn't a novelty and people stopped speaking about it. He went to Ireland a few times, I recall, and he DJ'd Paddy's Day at Grad Bar a couple of times. He was GSA prez & quite popular & fought the uni on issues. Only mentioned former music work once that I remember, and only vaguely. Mostly known as Canadian.

Vandalism by Single-purpose account Jackmantas

There has been a several-hour attempt at purging of whole sections of this article, bad edits (where a simple Google would have turned up the references, or the references are actually at the bottom of the article, but this editor keeps misspelling Greif), and malicious blanking by Single-purpose account Jackmantas. A sockpuppet of whom exactly? I don't know...but instead of constructive editing, they appear to not have heard of good faith. No doubt this page needs editing, and citation of references instead of a list, but failed attempts to blank the page followed up with bad faith edits isn't the answer. A Sniper (talk) 11:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Response to: "Vandalism by single purpose account Jackmantas"

Well I can tell you one thing, I am not going to let a "grumpy user scare me off." I am a new editor and as such I don't know all the ins and outs but I am trying to learn. Yes I did blank the page when I first started, but that was before I knew what I was doing. Aren't you supposed to be patient and kind to new users? Your claim of me not displaying good faith is exactly what you are doing by attacking me like you have.

Yes, I did mispell Greif a couple of times ( honest mistake, and easy to do I might add) and you jumped all over me for it. Pardon me please. I googled Viogression, not Greif anyway and didn't find anything about Mr. Grief even on Encyclopedia Metallium! Besides if I was just trying to "slash" and "decimate" as you say I have, why wouldn't I just delete all the bands that he was supposedly involved with and not just Viogression? Well the answer to that is because I did research and I found information that he was involved with some of the other bands, but I did not find any evidence with Viogression, so I edited accordingly.

Now would you answer me this please? You have undone my edit concerning the claims that Mr. Greif was involved with both "Motley Crue" and "London." Would you mind telling me what verifiable proof you have that he was involved with either of those bands? On what basis have you undone my edits as far as that information goes? Sounds like to me just a continuation of your wild claims of "Vandalism."

Oh, and you have called me a "Sockpuppet." (I had to look that one up) What grounds do you have to accuse me of being a sockpuppet? I am a brand new user, not a sockpuppet. I have never set foot on the editing page of a Wikipedia article before in my life.

You have also accused me of being Homophobic. With absolutely no grounds for that either. I cut and pasted that statement that you are referring to directly from one of the hyperlinks in the article.

Moderator? Yes I think that would be a good idea. In the meantime I would appreciate it if you would cool your jets and stop attacking me with baseless accusations.

Thanks,Jackmantas (talk) 13:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Searches

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Nobody signed this post. Hmm, I wonder who posted it? Jackmantas (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Look it up in the history. It'll tell you that User:Malcolmxl5 posted it.-- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

just what appears to be more bad faith by trolling single-purpose account Jackmantas. A Sniper (talk) 02:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Notability and sourcing

I wanted to add the concerns I've posted at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Eric Greif here. I've only had a cursory look at the sourcing for this article, but I'm raising the question as to which sources listed here meet the guidelines for the Wikipedia:Biography of Living Persons policy, specifically the section on sources, and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources. Also, I have a concern if the article meets the Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (people) guidelines based on these sources. dissolve^talk 10:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Failed all criteria

I have the same concerns as Dissolve about this article. In addition to these concerns, I believe this article has failed all criteria and am flagging it for speedy deletion. Jackmantas (talk) 13:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

quite the coincidence, you and Dissolve. ;) A Sniper (talk) 13:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion is for articles that do not assert notability. There are assertions of notability in music and as an author in this article so a speedy delete may not be appropriate at this time. Hopefully I get the chance to read through the sources of this article sometime soon to determine if there is enough source-wise to meet notability guidelines. If I don't see enough sources that meet the standards for sourcing at WP:V and WP:BLP, I will take the article to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion to establish a broader concensus if the article is notable. If the article is notable, I certainly support there being a Wikipedia article about the subject, it just needs to be based on sources that meet WP:V and WP:BLP. dissolve^talk 18:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay Dissolve, sounds good and thanks for the clarification on that. Jackmantas (talk) 19:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality Flag removed?

I was wondering why the neutrality dispute flagging was removed on this article? The flag clearly states that it is not to be removed until the dispute is resolved. Jackmantas (talk) 19:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey trolling single-purpose account Jackmantas: the only obsessed editor concerned with the neutrality issue is you. Dissolve has retained the COI notice, which started all of this, and that will stand. Instead, why don't you work with the available sources to make the article survive? Try varying searches (Greif, Grief, Eric "Griffy" Greif) and assume good faith. Oh, and if you're not really a single-purpose account, trolling all my edits on different articles and dedicating yourself to dismantling one page entirely, why not branch out and do some editing on various other pages...like adding the Bob Rock producer's page? You'll note that some of your edits I didn't revert, and I didn't revert your header edit on the Schuldiner page - I even fixed your reference. Oh, I found your youtube 'explanation' very interesting. A Sniper (talk) 20:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Vandalsim

I saw you reverted some vandalism, Sniper, so i reverted you. Please be more careful in future before making false accusations against people. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

what exactly is 'vandalsim'? A Sniper (talk) 23:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's try this again. Neutrality flag removed?

I am still wondering why the neutrality dispute flagging was removed on this article? The flag clearly states that it is not to be removed until the dispute is resolved. Jackmantas (talk) 01:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hint: you should go to the talk page of the user who reverted your addition of the notice and ask the question there - this can be found via history. I looked and they seemed to have a valid explanation. A Sniper (talk) 05:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, for some reason I can't seem to find who reverted it. Can you direct me to it so I can check out the explanation please? Thanks --Jackmantas (talk) 05:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

look in the history section. A Sniper (talk) 06:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Trivial Photo?

I would like to discuss the photo marked with the caption: "papers related to Greif's '82 Mötley Crüe tour of Canada were auctioned by Allan Coffman's widow." I feel it is trivial in nature. Also the way the papers are laid out they are mostly unreadable even when enlarged. In my mind the photo adds nothing to the article and should be removed.--Jackmantas (talk) 02:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, in your opinion - a single-purpose account user whose dozens and dozens of edits have been focused on only two articles, one of which is a subject that you appear to not have any familiarity with but (like this one) is associated with me. What is your obsession? A Sniper (talk) 05:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but that is untrue. I have edited more than two articles and I have also edited numerous sections which you had nothing to do with. I would appreciate it if you would be truthful when you are referring to me. I believe I have a right to edit wherever I see a need. When I see that the articles I have been working on are cleaned up, I will then move on. Thanks --Jackmantas (talk) 06:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I have gone over your entire history as a 'new' editor at Wikipedia. Other than two or three edits (on other editor's talk pages or related to the COI situation), your dozens and dozens of edits have all been related to articles I've been an editor on. That gives the appearance of trolling, and certainly qualifies you as a single-purpose account. A Sniper (talk) 06:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Citations

For almost a year it has been beyond dispute that the references listed at the bottom of the article should be linked as citations. I will endeavor to do this as soon as able - this is why the citations notice is there. There is no need for individual users to continually add citation notices after each sentence - it is already agreed that citations need to be inserted. Thanks, A Sniper (talk) 05:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Response by Jackmantas: Well, with all due respect I think if it has been almost a year don't you think it is about time that some citations were added? However, you are going to need a lot more than those links at the bottom of the page to serve as verification for all the unverified info on your autobiography. Most of those links are just website interviews of you and in my mind hardly qualify as solid unbiased citations. My guess is that no such citations exist and that is why they haven't been inserted for almost a year. Before I added the citation notices I did quite a bit of research on the net to find some citations and came up with nothing. As far as individual users adding citation notices; isn't that what they are for? To show exactly what statements need to be verified? As far as citation notices being added after each sentence, well I don't think it was exactly after each sentence but it was after each statement that needs to be verified and well I guess there are just a lot of them. Thanks, --Jackmantas (talk) 05:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but have to agree with Jack. Sniper, how can you possible justify keeping the Metal Mania Magazine link? It has a single mention of Eric Grief. The whole thing needs to be sourced or removed. It's a giant BLP mess. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Cleared the whole mess out and am rebuilding bit by bit. If anything is sourced, it can be inserted. I'm also working on a more encyclopedic tone than that last version. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

that's certainly fine with me. I'll do my best to assist. Cheers, A Sniper (talk) 06:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Maddux interview removal

I'm just going to go bit by bit here. I remove the Shock Interview link as it only mentions Greif's work with Shock through Max Maddux, neither of which considered notable articles here. I also don't see any article for Vyper, so I'm going to just articles that just mention that work. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Eric Greif/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I just wonder what work has been done to verify that the Eric Greif with the music career is the same Eric Greif with the legal career - I studied with the "legal" Eric Greif and there was never any mention of an entertainment background! I am also not sure the ages add up (the age of the Eric Greif I knew and a music career in the 80's) - think there might be some need for fact checking to make sure these are not two different people. it appears that the two are one in the same - see the link marked 'recent interview', in which the individual claims that at one point he put the music business behind him and went to law school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.109.80.41 (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)