Talk:Fëanor/Archive 1

Quotes

This article cites most of the major points, but if we are going to have a discussion of Feanor, could we not at least list a couple of his major quotes? They fit in quite easily. I don't have the Sil in front of me, but one quote is very like "The deeds that we shall do shall be the stuff of legend until the last days of Arda." And Manwe himself, hearing this, is moved. And in some ways, this quote is the theme of the entire Silmarillion. Another quote I might include is something like "We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least. But one thing is not said. That we shall suffer from cravens or the fear of cravens." That's Feanor - straightforward, unapologetic, and in your face. If you told him later in the Halls of Mandos what had become of the whole thing, I am sure he would still say he was right to pursue Morgoth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.74.239 (talk • contribs)

I would be very curious to know what he was up to in the Halls of Mandos, but unfortunately I don't think Tolkien really says anything about that. By the end he'd be chilling out with just his father Finwë, his sons (for a while: I think Amrod would get reembodied, as he dies at Losgar, and I'm not ruling out that his sons might eventually get reembodied), and his half-nephew Aegnor. I wonder if he can communicate with his mother Míriel? Double sharp (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Re the quotes: to be truly representative of him, we might have to include his entire speech before the Ñoldor in Tirion. XD

‘Why, O my people,’ he cried, ‘why should we longer serve these jealous gods, who cannot keep us, nor their own realm even, secure from their Enemy? And though he be now their foe, are not they and he of one kin? Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise, I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father’s slayer and the thief of my treasure. Yet I am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your king? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the jealous mountains and the harvestless Sea? Here once was light, that the Valar begrudged to Middle-earth, but now dark levels all. Shall we mourn here deedless forever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the salt thankless Sea? Or shall we go home? In Kuiviénen sweet ran the waters under unclouded stars, and wide lands lay about where a free folk might walk. There they lie still and await us who in our folly forsook them. Come away! Let the cowards keep this city. But by the blood of Finwë! unless I dote, if the cowards only remain, then grass will grow in the streets. Nay, rot, mildew, and toadstool.’

Long he spoke, and ever he urged the Noldor to follow him and by their own prowess to win freedom and great realms in the lands of the East ere it was too late; for he echoed the lies of Melkor that the Valar had cozened them and would hold them captive so that Men might rule Middle-earth; and many of the Eldar heard then for the first time of the Aftercomers. ‘Fair shall the end be,’ he cried, ‘though long and hard shall be the road! Say farewell to bondage! But say farewell also to ease! Say farewell to the weak! Say farewell to your treasures - more still shall we make! Journey light. But bring with you your swords! For we will go further than Tauros, endure longer than Tulkas: we will never turn back from pursuit. After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils that he stole, then behold! We, we alone, shall be the lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and the beauty of Arda! No other race shall oust us!’

Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. Straightway his seven sons leaped to his side and each took the selfsame oath; and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches.

‘Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor’s kin,
whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
finding keepeth or afar casteth
a Silmaril. This swear we all:
death we will deal him ere Day’s ending,
woe unto world’s end! Our word hear thou,
Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.
On the holy mountain hear in witness
and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!’

—J.R.R. Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Aman

Double sharp (talk) 02:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Quenya Name of Fëanor

There seems to be some confusion between Quenyan names of Fëanor:

• Amras refers to him as Telufinwë, "Last Finwë"
• Amrod refers to him as Pityafinwë, "Little Finwë"
• Fëanor includes Curufinwë/Kurufinwë, "Skillful (son of) Finwë"

--Thisisbossi 05:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no confusion, it is just easy to misread. In the twins' articles it does not read nor mean "Amrod's/Amras' father's name", but "Amrod's/Amras' father name". Their father's name would be Fëanor, but the twins' father name means the name they were given by their father. Fëanor himself has the father name Curufinwe, and the mother name Fëanáro. If you are not familliar with the naming traditions of Tolkien Elves, you can read it in Elf (Middle-earth)#Naming conventions. ~ Winterwater 11:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The language is Quenya, not "Quenyan", BTW. Double sharp (talk) 05:49, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

High King of the Noldor?

I have a hard time with this title. Feanor gave up his birth right by virtue of his crimes. He was still serving his sentence when Finwe was killed. He may have claimed the kingship during his big hissy fit about the silmarils, but just claiming it doesn't make it so.Ninquerinquar 21:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Fingolfin acknowledged Feanor as the eldest at the feasts of reuniting basically gaving the kingship back to Feanor. --67.186.34.122 22:29, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Feanor was never acknowledged as the High King of the Noldor. This article has quite a few other errors, including the odd references to the kinslayings as "genocide." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.58.106.139 (talk) 17:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Feanor did actually rule for a few years after Finwe was slain, which happened of course before the first kinslaying, so right at that time there wasn't any reason for Feanor to waive his succession. Only when Feanor died in Beleriand and Maedhros waived his rights, Fingolfin was chosen to be High King [1]. But regarding the "feasts of reuniting" if that is the Mereth Aderthad held after Maedhros' rescue, Feanor was already dead then. This feast was called upon by Fingolfin in his capacity as High King. De728631 (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Since Fingolfin doesn't arrive in Middle-earth until YT 1500, isn't Maedhros actually High King from Fëanor's death in YT 1497 to his waiving of his claim in YS 5? (Although his kingship would be titular indeed, as he'd be spending most of it hanging from Thangorodrim. I imagine Maglor would have been reigning in his stead, but here we move firmly into OR and speculation.) Double sharp (talk) 11:43, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Míriel Serindë?

I am a bit amused and just a tad offended that this article is making the exact same mistake that The Shibboleth of Fëanor was all about. Both Míriel and Fëanor protested that "Serindë" was not her name - the Þ character in Þerindë actually stands for the sound "TH" as pronounced in the word "thorn" (which is that letter's name). The more accurate spelling in English would be Therindë.

The whole point of The Shibboleth of Fëanor is that Fëanor and his sons refused to make the pronounciation change that would turn Míriel's name to Serindë. --MimiSard (talk) 05:56, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME (sort of) Double sharp (talk) 13:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, "offended"? Fëanor, is that you? :-P Double sharp (talk) 13:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Though in all seriousness, the absence of the Shibboleth from this article is a pretty major gap. And why is most of the article on Fëanáro's Silmarilli rather than Fëanáro himself? Double sharp (talk) 10:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

has no one noticed...?

...that the first few lines of the article contain the phrase "Fëanor is best known as the creator of three gems, the Silmarils, which figure prominently in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings."???23:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.70.203.221 (talk)

Fixed. Although you could have done it yourself :) Carl Sixsmith (talk) 11:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

where exactly is Fëanor?

Is he in Mandos, or literally in the Everlasting Darkness that he called upon? This tumblr post by lintamande drew my attention to the fact that Tolkien's final statements on the fate of Fëanor (Mandos till the Dagor Dagorath) predate the introduction of the Everlasting Darkness into the Oath, and that he also notes that the Oath is unfulfilled and not voided when Maedhros and Maglor get the last two Silmarils back. Double sharp (talk) 15:18, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

In general I think that quite a few of the Middle-earth articles on content from The Silmarillion fail to pay enough attention to the fact that it is basically an unfinished creative work, just like Quenya or Sindarin as languages, and has none of the authorial imprimatur that The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings carries from first page to last. It is all well and good to try to reflect Tolkien's vision at one point in time, but due to the incompleteness of the revisions, we instead get the problem listed above, and ironing out the inconsistencies result in reflecting Tolkien's vision at no point in time.

I think that despite the versions listed in some of the later HoME volumes being chronologically later, we should not adopt them as primary, and should instead reflect primarily the contents of the "standard completion" by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Kay, with other versions given in the history of development. So that means for example that Maglor is treated as surviving the First Age (with The Lay of Leithian Recommenced given second place), that Celeborn is a Sinda (with the versions in Unfinished Tales also given second place), that Curufin is the fifth son of Fëanor and the father of Celebrimbor (and not the fourth son, and certainly not those versions where Celebrimbor is a Teler or one of the Gondolindrim), that Maedhros' name is actually Maedhros (and not Maedros or Maedron, which came later from "The Problem of Ros"), that neither Amrod nor Amras died at Losgar (and there is even a version where both do, so that only 5 sons of Fëanor are mentioned when Eöl is confronted by Curufin), and of course that Gil-galad is the son of Fingon. It is kind of like how all descriptions of Mozart's Requiem rightly treat Süßmayr's version as a given. (Though I don't see why most of these need articles. Fëanor and Fingolfin certainly deserve articles, but Fëanor's sons can readily be covered all in one article, for example.) Doing this would certainly let us have a better balance between in-universe material and more encyclopaedic things like literary analysis by reliable sources of Fëanor's role in Tolkien's legendarium and his sources! Double sharp (talk) 06:47, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

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