Talk:FIFA Ballon d'Or

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comment on votes[edit]

A comment on the "Votes" column and resulting percentage. For Ballon d'Or voting in 2012, each ballot contained 5 points for 1st, 3 points for 2nd, and 1 point for 3rd -- a total of 9 points given out on every ballot. Therefore the maximum percentage points or vote that anyone could receive would be all 5-point votes from every voter, which would result in 55.5555...%. I believe there needs to be an additional column in the table to scale the % of votes received with respect to the maximum potential votes. For example Lionel Messi in 2012's 41.60% would then become 41.60/(5/9) = 74.88% of total possible points. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.8.215.221 (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don'T think ranking by country makes sense, especially when only listing 20% of the award, the men's player winner. -Koppapa (talk) 21:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - and can someone tell me why this page isn't combined with the the Fifa world player of the year award? The overall statistics on that page and this page is very misleading as they should be combined. They haven't separated out European Cup / Champion's League winners, just because it got rebranded 1992/1993. Similarly this should be combined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.168.244.128 (talk) 07:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This award is a merger of two prior awards (the Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year award), whereas the Champions League was a rebranding. We can't merge the histories of the two previous awards, so we create a new article. – PeeJay 11:04, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Female winners[edit]

FIFA Ballon d'Or is the recieve only male players. Women continue to receive the FIFA World Player of the Year as FIFA Women's World Player of the Year.

You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh6KdRvmR5s / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPwihV66J0

and http://www.seethecup.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/messi_marta.jpg / http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06fZ2700uIaDQ/610x.jpg


Coach of the Year is the also diferent award! http://www.fifa.com/ballondor/coachoftheyear/index.html --Aca Srbin (talk) 13:34, 11 January 2011 (CET)

I think it would be a good idea to put the past winners of both Golden ball and FIFA World player here. Because all around the world it is understood as a continuation of these awards. That said, it would be good to see the past winners of the two awards here so that everyone understand why Messi won it in fact for the second consecutive year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.176.159.243 (talk) 15:03, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ballon d'Or[edit]

FIFA Ballon d'Or is not a separate prize, but only successor of Ballon d'Or.(France Football official website) And Messi is a three-time winner of the prize, as Platini and Kroif and Van Basten.(telegraph.co.uk)--46.241.244.33 (talk) 17:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(in Italian) Scusate se scrivo in italiano ma il mio inglese è pessimo. Sono fortemente contrario. In pratica il Pallone d'oro FIFA è una fusione di due diversi titoli (FIFA World Player of the Year e Pallone d'oro, il primo dato dalla FIFA il secondo da France Football). Questo titolo (FIFA Ballon d'or) è dato da FIFA + France Football. Per me è meglio distinguere le due voci. Google translate --Aleksander Šesták 21:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
UEFA Europa League is also a fusion of two different tournaments (UEFA cup and UEFA Intertoto Cup), but the list of winners is not divided.--46.241.215.110 (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, the UEFA Europa League is the UEFA Cup by a different name. The Intertoto Cup may have been "merged" into the UEFA Cup when the Europa League was created, but that is the reason why we have one list for winners of the UEFA Cup/Europa League and one list for winners of the Intertoto Cup. – PeeJay 20:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It'd be great if someone could inserrt a public domain picture of the trophy, or the certificate if there isn't a trophy. Dick Kimball (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Same award[edit]

Here you have a proof that it is the same award: http://www.fifa.com/ballondor/news/newsid=1981678/index.html?intcmp=newsreader_news_box_1 - the fifa official website claims Messi won the same prize for the fourth cosnecutive year.

Here, France Football: Lionel Messi a été sacré ce lundi soir Ballon d'Or 2012. L'attaquant du FC Barcelone, auteur de 91 buts sur l'année civile 2012, remporte le prestigieux trophée pour la quatrième fois de suite, un record absolu.

Here, Marca: http://www.marca.com/2013/01/07/futbol/1357585023.html

Here, goal.com: http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2013/01/07/3654842/congratulations-messi-the-best-there-is-and-far-from

And finally, bbc, as an english representative: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20937775

Now, please, respect the official sources and do not make your own personal research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.45.226.223 (talk) 21:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was a decision made elsewhere that they're not the same award. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
First reference simply states that Messi was "named the world’s best on four occasions". That doesn't state that the award is the same. I won't comment on the others. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why wont you comment on the others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.45.226.223 (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly because it was discussed immediately above. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:39, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The award is not the same, the amount of times we have covered this is mind-blogging. The FIFA World Player of the Year was merged with the Ballon d'Or to create this award. There are documents in a thread somewhere from FIFA, proving this to be the case. There is clear consensus about this issue, any attempt to change it is futile, they are the same award. The media often get details wrong, we follow what the primary source says. NapHit (talk) 22:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Surely basic ease of use has to enter the equation here as well. It's irritating and frankly unnecessary to try and look up Ballon d'Or winners and have to use two separate articles rather than having them on a single page. Whether you can make some technical argument to justify it or not, what we have is a fairly poor solution to the problem and there are surely other alternatives - e.g. merging all three articles (including FIFA World Player of the Year) under "Ballon d'Or" and explaining that the modern award is the result of a merger of the two previous ones.
We've got an almost laughably complex arrangement at present. The "original" Ballon d'Or article cuts off at 2010; the FIFA World Player of the Year article has the absurd and confusing system of continuing for women's football, but only listing male winners up until 2010; and the actual Ballon d'Or article for the award everyone is talking about today (this one) is pretty much a stub that only covers three years. It might be technically correct, but it's utterly unusable. Bandanamerchant (talk) 23:28, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've not participated in this discussion before, but I've read through some of the discussions at WT:FOOTY, and I know that there is a consensus in the football-project to split it into three articles. However, today I'm reading in every newspapers in the world that Messi won the fourth consecutive Ballon D'or, while the Wikipedia article says he has won three in a row; shouldn't Wikipedia-articles reflect what reliable secondary sources says (not primary sources)? Consensus can change, and I believe we should now turn the table - are there any reliable third-party sources that support that it is different awards ? Mentoz86 (talk) 13:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this award isn't a proper merge... Ballon d'Or was getting much attention and FIFA tried to work it out with it's own award, being unsuccessful they just get the rights for Ballon d'Or and dropped their own... the trophy is exactly the same...--181.14.142.144 (talk) 08:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What you "believe" isn't relevant here. What is relevant is what the sources say, and all the reliable sources say that the two awards merged, with neither history being retained since a new award was created. The trophy may be the same, but I don't see how that makes any difference. – PeeJay 12:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is there actually a specific source which states that the history isn't retained? There are plenty of sources saying it's a merger, but I haven't seen any which specifically make that point about history (and it's the crucial point which leads to us having three articles to cover one subject). It seems fairly obvious that the intention was to retain some form of history, otherwise they wouldn't have kept the name/trophy in the first place. Bandanamerchant (talk) 11:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Having checked FIFA's website for the official history of the award (see here), it gives primacy to the FIFA World Player of the Year award (as you would expect, it being a FIFA award), but it also lists the winners of the France Football Ballon d'Or. So perhaps it shares the history of both awards. But since it would make no sense to list the winners of all three awards on this one page (as two of them already had articles of their own), we only list achievements since the merger here. – PeeJay 17:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I think there is actually a great deal of sense in presenting the winners of all three awards on one page. The reason being that the page as it is now is virtually useless - virtually nobody wants to look up a list that only features the winners of the award back to 2010. We've essentially created a list of statistics (and that's all this page really consists of at present) which are of no real use to anyone. It's difficult to think of a single situation in which someone would want to look up the information on this page, but wouldn't want to know how it relates to the previous two awards. You could theoretically contain all the information in one table - you have two columns for winners down to 2010, then it merges into one. At least that way all of the information is contained in one place and we're not forcing literally everyone interested in the subject to look at two/three separate pages instead of one. There's far more to the debate than being technically "correct", usability and the purpose of the article in the first place are just as important. Bandanamerchant (talk) 22:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To revisit this one year on, as mentioned above FIFA include the history of both awards on the same page on the official FIFA Ballon d'Or website. If FIFA includes these awards on the same page then there is no reason, whatsoever, for continuing with the current multiple article system on Wikipedia - it deviates from the format used by the official primary source, it's a complete nonsense from a logical point of view, and it drastically reduces readability.
The argument might have made some sort of sense when it was still unclear how FIFA viewed the awards, but given they explicitly include them on the same page under "previous editions" that argument is now completely untenable. These articles should be merged as soon as possible, the only question is the format the new article should take (I would advocate the merged table outlined in my previous comment). Bandanamerchant (talk) 18:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your suggestion only makes sense if FIFA treats one of the precursor awards as being more important than the other. That would be a simple merger. However, if you're suggesting that we merge all three articles on the FIFA Ballon d'Or, Ballon d'Or and FIFA World Player of the Year, I can only say that you must be off your rocker. As I said last year, the precursor awards have separate articles, so the post-merger article should have its own article too. – PeeJay 20:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
FIFA covers the history of all three awards on one page, so given that precedent perhaps you could explain what, precisely, is so ridiculous about Wikipedia following the same format. We're not talking about articles that have pages and pages of text, both of the other articles largely consist of tables of statistics with a small amount of text in the intro. The argument that it "only makes sense if FIFA treats one of the precursor awards as being more important than the other" is completely arbitrary - it's perfectly possible to include the information from both awards in a neutral way without privileging one over the other.
However we don't even need to go that far yet. A start would be at the very least including the previous Ballon d'Or and FIFA World Player of the Year winners in this article - which would go some way towards making it of some substantive value. Is there any actual, concrete reason to avoid doing that? Bandanamerchant (talk) 22:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the fact that the previous awards have their own articles is a pretty good place to start. Why don't we just provide links back to those articles with some explanatory text? – PeeJay 22:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Award criteria[edit]

It's necessary to state that the award is not given based on a player's previous season, but a player's previous calendar year. These are two very different things in most sports and definitely in football (soccer). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.112.160.169 (talk) 03:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's only the case in leagues where the seasons and calendar years don't coincide. In some leagues, the season is played completely within the same calendar year, but I understand your point. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ballon d'Or[edit]

Guys, say what you will, argue all you want. It is completely ridiculous to have separate pages for this award and its predecessor. Everybody treats them the same - and I mean, everybody, including, without a single exceptional instance I can remember of, the institutions that now award and that previously awarded the award. They always, always present - as everybody else, bar WP - this prize as the successor to both the old awards, but mostly the Ballon d'Or, which has been running without interruption roughly since there are wide European competitions. Now, as even you technicality-obsessed WPers know, what users actually want is to be able to know how many times people have won the award, and how that compares with other people since the 1950s. That's how everybody mentions it: Ronaldo won it twice, Messi four times. At least in the past couple of years, was there ever anyone saying Ronaldo has one Ballon d'Or, one FIFA player of the year and one FIFA Ballon d'Or? None, ever: everybody correctly states he has two Ballon d'Or, including the people awarding the prize. Now, please do the sensible thing and let there be a merged version of the Ballon d'Or (ideally only one page, under "FIFA Ballon d'Or", including the history of the preceding awards, but if really needed, then at least let there be one page alternatively to the existing three...), presenting the two awards merged. If needed, have the table have two columns before the merge and one after it came into place, but please let us be able to keep track and have a reference for encyclopedic information on this matter in WP. The way it is, it is useless, which is a shame, since WP is otherwise increasingly a good source for football stats. In this particular thing, it sucks, because of the insistence of a handful of people who are being unreasonable after an initial squabble that at the time might have even made sense. Not anymore, it is currently unusable. Just my opinion as a user.

This is FIFA's take on the award: in every instance, it is assumed to be the successor to the Ballon d'Or. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.92.38.80 (talk) 03:15, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You make an interesting point, but how do you suggest we deal with the FIFA World Player of the Year award? Treat the Ballon d'Or and FIFA Ballon d'Or as a contiguous award and have the FIFA World Player of the Year award as a separate entity? That's not the impression I'm getting from the page you linked to. From what I can tell, and this is the position I've had since the FIFA Ballon d'Or was created, it was created as an equal merger of both prior awards; since we can't put the history of both awards into the article about the new award due to space/cluttering/WP:NOTSTATS concerns, we have three separate articles: one each for the two previous awards and another for the new one. – PeeJay 11:09, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is current FIFA take on the award: http://www.fifa.com/ballon-dor/history/index.html
Then it seems that FIFA actually considers the FIFA Ballon d'Or as the sole continuation of the former FIFA World Player of the Year award, not as a merger of the FIFA World Player of the Year with the France Football Ballon d'Or. If that is the case, then I suppose we could say that Messi has won the current award five times, although one of those was back when the award was still called "FIFA World Player of the Year", which would make it a bit weird to say he's won five FIFA Ballons d'Or. – PeeJay 15:54, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Messi has been crowned the world's best player five times (once under the FiFA World Player banner, and four times under the FIFA Ballon d'Or banner), which is in the FIFA link I provided in the discussion below. The problem with the old Ballon d'Or is it was a mess (only eligible to Europeans (hence no Maradona for his Napoli exploits), then only to players playing in Europe (hence Weah being able to receive it)...it was a European player of the year award (and as I've just mentioned it was muddied even then). The FIFA award (from 1991 on) has been crystal clear...it's given to the worlds best player. – Carlos Rojas77 talk 16:03, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's true, but that's why we distinguish between the three awards. However, I don't necessarily agree with the old Ballon d'Or being a "mess" just because it had specific eligibility criteria; 99.9% of the world's best players play(ed) in Europe anyway. When was the last time there was a player based outside Europe who even stood a chance of winning? – PeeJay 16:15, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It clearly was a mess because it altered it's criteria (Europeans playing in Europe only, to any nationality playing in Europe only)..what that means is there is no continuity...you can't compare the same award from the 1980s to the 1990s. And this is just from a European standpoint...whereas the FiFa award is given to the best player on the planet, the old Ballon d'Or cut out the most talented pool of players in the world..namely South America. Zico was widely regarded as being the best player in the world in the early 1980s...the Ballon d'Or was being given to players nowhere close to his level. Garrincha in the late 50s. Pele had to be given a special Ballon d'Or because he was ineligible to receive it during his playing career. An award that was limited to just Europeans, then to players playing in Europe, versus an award that is open to everyone. The Ballon d'Or and the FIFA Ballon d'Or...It's chalk and cheese.Carlos Rojas77 talk 16:28, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2014[edit]

i want to edit this because i found something wrong with it. Tariq7825 (talk) 17:19, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done This is not the right page to request additional user rights.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request. - Arjayay (talk) 17:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Categories[edit]

Done — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 22:48, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Category[edit]

Done. No idea why in the edit request from December 2014 (see above) this was changed from worldwide to European, because what the IP says makes sense. I'm no football expert, so anyone is free to revert me if they can provide an explanation. Altamel (talk) 17:26, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

Ok, so FIFA considers it the same award (http://www.fifa.com/ballon-dor/news/y=2016/m=1/news=messi-lloyd-luis-enrique-and-ellis-triumph-at-fifa-ballon-d-or-2015-2754944.html?intcmp=fifacom_hp_module_news_top: "Lionel Messi has won the FIFA Ballon d’Or for the best player in the world for the fifth time..."), France Football considers it the same award (http://www.francefootball.fr/news/Messi-la-preuve-par-cinq/623629: "Sacré pour la cinquième fois après 2009, 2010, 2011 et 2012, Lionel Messi peut savourer en ouvrant grand la main. Give me five !"), FC Barcelona considers it the same award (http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/fc-barcelona-s-lionel-messi-wins-fifth-fifa-ballon-d-or: "Lionel Messi wins fifth FIFA Ballon d’Or"), biggest sport newspapers in Spain (http://www.marca.com/futbol/balon-oro/2016/01/11/5693e9e8ca474165448b466c.html; http://www.mundodeportivo.com/futbol/balon-oro/20160110/301312256380/messi-gana-balon-oro-quinto.html), England (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jan/11/lionel-messi-ballon-dor-cristiano-ronaldo-barcelona; http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/35285469) or Italy (http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/11-01-2016/manita-d-oro-messi-nessuno-come-lui-gol-piu-bello-florenzi-non-ce-fa-140232172926.shtml#) considers it the same award, even MESSI HIMSELF considers it the same award ("Es increíble que sea el quinto. Es mucho más de lo que imaginaba cuando era chiquito")... only wikipedia is still being ridiculous? Shouldn't Wikipedia follow official sources rather than making its own research? Would it really be that hard to make the only logical choice, merge the articles so that everyoen can see immediately who won what and how many times...? 94.112.98.83 (talk) 22:39, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2016[edit]

Since messi just won his 5th award, shouldnt it be his 5th now?

108.21.74.91 (talk) 02:25, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done --allthefoxes (Talk) 03:08, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
eraser Undone He has 4 FIFA Ballon D'Or, which is this article where the oldest Ballon d'Or dont count. See table of winners you can count to Messi four times. Qed237 (talk) 14:40, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is your original research. Official sources (see abow), say something else. 194.213.35.130 (talk) 16:10, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2016[edit]

ronaldo has 3 ballon dors, 2008,2013,2014. 147.175.183.55 (talk) 17:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --allthefoxes (Talk) 18:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
These sources prove that Messi is considered to have five Ballons d'Or (therefore, Cristiano to have three - logically): FIFA (http://www.fifa.com/ballon-dor/news/y=2016/m=1/news=messi-lloyd-luis-enrique-and-ellis-triumph-at-fifa-ballon-d-or-2015-2754944.html?intcmp=fifacom_hp_module_news_top: "Lionel Messi has won the FIFA Ballon d’Or for the best player in the world for the fifth time..."), France Football (http://www.francefootball.fr/news/Messi-la-preuve-par-cinq/623629: "Sacré pour la cinquième fois après 2009, 2010, 2011 et 2012, Lionel Messi peut savourer en ouvrant grand la main. Give me five !"), FC Barcelona (http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/fc-barcelona-s-lionel-messi-wins-fifth-fifa-ballon-d-or: "Lionel Messi wins fifth FIFA Ballon d’Or"), biggest sport newspapers in Spain (http://www.marca.com/futbol/balon-oro/2016/01/11/5693e9e8ca474165448b466c.html; http://www.mundodeportivo.com/futbol/balon-oro/20160110/301312256380/messi-gana-balon-oro-quinto.html), England (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jan/11/lionel-messi-ballon-dor-cristiano-ronaldo-barcelona; http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/35285469), France (http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Article/Lionel-messi-a-retrouve-son-ballon/623694?xtatc=INT-21-[Lionel-messi-a-retrouve-son-ballon]) or Italy (http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/11-01-2016/manita-d-oro-messi-nessuno-come-lui-gol-piu-bello-florenzi-non-ce-fa-140232172926.shtml#), Messi himself ("Es increíble que sea el quinto. Es mucho más de lo que imaginaba cuando era chiquito"). What else is required? 194.213.35.130 (talk) 20:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Better sources. Sure, those pages say Messi has won five Ballons d'Or; I'm not going to dispute that. What Messi has not won, however, is five FIFA Ballons d'Or. This article deals only with the award that has existed since 2010, which Messi has only won four times. The sources aren't wrong exactly, but they're not right either. – PeeJay 22:31, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But have you read them at least? Some of the sources clearly say exactly what you want them to say. FIFA clearly says ""Lionel Messi has won the FIFA Ballon d’Or for the best player in the world for the fifth time...". Similarly, FC Barcelona: "Lionel Messi wins fifth FIFA Ballon d’Or". On the other hand, you will harldy find sources claiming Messi has four FIFA Ballons d'Or...94.112.98.83 (talk) 08:52, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If FIFA is claiming Messi has won five FIFA Ballons d'Or, then someone needs to write to FIFA to tell them they're wrong. This award didn't exist until 2010, and any Ballons d'Or awarded before that were awarded by France Football magazine, not FIFA. – PeeJay 11:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid this is not the point. It's not up to you or Wikipedia in general to decide who is right and make original research. Official sources should be respected.194.213.35.130 (talk) 15:17, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
PeeJay is correct. The FIFA Ballon d'Or and the Ballon d'Or are two completely different awards. The FiFA administered award has always been for the world's best player, the France Football administered award has been for the European player of the year (eligible only to players playing in Europe). For instance, Michael Owen won the France Football Ballon d'Or in 2001, and has only ever been referred to as European player of the year. He never received an award as the world's best player. Ballon d'Or only became global in 2010. This from FIFA's offical site further clarifies things: FIFA best player history. The world player of the year is listed at the top right up to 2014. Note in 2004, Ronaldinho won the FIFA award and is listed as world player of the year, Shevchenko is only listed as the Ballon d'Or winner, as he (like Owen in 2001) was never crowned the world's best player. – Carlos Rojas77 talk 15:52, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I completely understand this point of view. And I can even agree on creating a page that would somehow make it clear that there was an important change in 2010 etc. BUT the things you and PeeJay argue are based just on your opinion and your own research. And it goes completely against official sources which, I mantain again, shoudld be respected. Every single newspaper considers it to be the continuation of the same award (Ballon d'Or). Every single newpaper says Messi now has five of them (in many cases it says clearly five FIFA Ballon d'Ors). Nowhere except Wikipedia you will find that Messi has one just one Ballon d'Or and 4 FIFA Ballons d'Or. No one understands it like that and Wikipedia should accept that. Otherwise you don't respect official and other sources just because you don't agree with them. Which is completely wrong. This is not how Wikipedia works. 194.213.35.130 (talk) 17:15, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You think there should be a page that reflects a major change in 2010? That's what this page is! The FIFA Ballon d'Or was created as a merger of the France Football Ballon d'Or and the FIFA World Player of the Year award; you can't really merge those two articles, so we created this article to cover the history of the FIFA Ballon d'Or since its inception in 2010. – PeeJay 17:59, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
An encyclopedia is not based on "opinions". If the Ballon d'Or and the FIFA Ballon d'Or were one and the same no one would dispute that. European player of the year is not the world player of the year. Its clear when you read through that article the differences. George Best was European Player of the year when he won the Balon d'Or in 1968, this article is about the World player of the year. The FIFA World Player of the Year and the FIFA Ballon d'Or are the same award and this is shown in FIFA's history of the award. There is a direct continuation as the world's best player. Any agency that states Messi has won five Ballon d'Ors are being lazy. This from BBC is an example of this http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35285469 He won four FIFA Ballon d'Ors, the global award, and a European player Ballon d'Or. http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/fc-barcelona-s-lionel-messi-wins-fifth-fifa-ballon-d-or is another example. What they are doing is tagging on a continental award to a global one. Should we add the South American player of the year to the FIFA Ballon d'Or? Or African player of the year? It's asking the same thing. Continental awards have nothing to do with the FIFA Balon d'Or..– WisconsinPat talk 19:23, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Having just read the Ballon D'or article, the award became global in 2007. So this essentially means the current award is the same as 2007, 2008 and 2009. This would explain those sources. It's just those three years that the current award relates to. The 50 years before that it was a European award. This (http://www.fifa.com/ballon-dor/news/y=2016/m=1/news=messi-lloyd-luis-enrique-and-ellis-triumph-at-fifa-ballon-d-or-2015-2754944.html?intcmp=fifacom_hp_module_news_top: "Lionel Messi has won the FIFA Ballon d’Or for the best player in the world for the fifth time..."), appears to be accurate from the standpoint that it's for the "best player in the world". This too http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jan/11/lionel-messi-ballon-dor-cristiano-ronaldo-barcelona; Again, it's only 2007, 2008 and 2009 that this would apply to. Those that won the award before 2007 are not related to this.WisconsinPat talk 19:23, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So you probably agree that the current page should change then...? And yes an encyclopedia is not based on opinions, that is what I keep saying. But that is exactly the problem with PeeJay who does not respect offical sources because of his opinion... ("If FIFA is claiming Messi has won five FIFA Ballons d'Or, then someone needs to write to FIFA to tell them they're wrong.") 94.112.98.83 (talk) 20:23, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's not actually the FIFA award though. He's only won four FIFA Ballons d'Or, but five for the "best player in the world". I don't agree the page should change because the similarity of the awards only applies to three years; 2007, 2008 and 2009. All the years previous to that it was a different award. The Ballon D'or is no longer. It is a defunct award so best keep them separate.WisconsinPat talk 20:31, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't this exactly what you were talking about before? An opinion against sources (saying it is Messi's fifth FIFA Ballon d'Or...)... I am just surprised that the three of you are so keen on keeping the page the way it is even though it does not correspond at all to how EVERYONE understand the award... it is really hard to understand and it is a real pity because there would be many ways to create a page that would respect all the different views there might be...94.112.98.83 (talk) 20:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I said before this isn't about opinions. I don't care either way not that thats relevant. Has Messi won the FIFA Ballon d'Or five times? No he has not. The award was created in 2010 and he has lifted it four times. He has lifted the previous incarnation of the Ballon d'Or once. The sources are only correct when they say for "the best player in the world", as the previous Ballon d'Or became that in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Others can chime in on this.WisconsinPat talk 20:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You should tell the guys at FIFA to change their mistaken info, http://www.fifa.com/ballon-dor/history/index.html ... are there any reliable sources backing what you said?190.31.3.185 (talk) 05:29, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
IP, what changes do you think should be made then? France Football considers their Ballon d'Or and the FIFA Ballon d'Or one and the same, without regard for the former FIFA award. FIFA includes both previous awards in the official FIFA Ballon d'Or history. Reliable sources seem to go both ways. It's not feasible to create one article with a giant mashup of the winners and histories of all three awards, nor to update three articles with all post-2010 winners and events, so it makes the most sense to maintain the status quo. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 08:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Merger[edit]

FIFA is no longer part of the Ballon d'Or. The Ballon d'Or is owned by the Amaury Group, which also owns France Football. Amaury first licensed the rights to FF, then for five years jointly to FF and FIFA, and has now again allocated the rights only to FF. The magazine announced today that the 61st Ballon d'Or will be awarded this year (stop crying, Cristiano).

To me the obvious course of action is to merge the content of this article into Ballon d'Or (1956–2009). A separate article for just these five editions isn't useful for readers wanting to read about the history of the Ballon d'Or. Many media outlets, including France Football, always treated it as one award anyway, regardless of FIFA's involvement.

Once FIFA announces what shape their new award will take, we can update FIFA World Player of the Year accordingly. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 11:16, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think a merger is the best course of action. I'd prefer to see the Ballon d'Or (1956–2009) moved to Ballon d'Or (or even Ballon d'Or (France Football)) with a hatnote for the FIFA editions, and leave the link to the FIFA awards in the table. TheBigJagielka (talk) 12:16, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have to concur that a merger may not be the best at this time. We'll have to see what the criteria for the award will be in order to make that decision, and also see FIFA's response. No disrespect intended, but this feels like a knee-jerk response to a preliminary announcement. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 13:20, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever new criteria France Football may come up with aren't really relevant. The Ballon d'Or format has changed several times in its 60-year history. It has been awarded to the European Player of the Year (1956–94), the Best Player in Europe (1995–2006), and the World Player of the Year (2007–). The 2010–15 edition was just one more version of the same award, and we need to reflect that history. That said, more details will surely be published soon; I'll open an RfC then. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I see Interwiki conflicts in future and next disscussion in Wikidata. Dawid2009 (talk) 16:37, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely no merger for the simple reason they are two completely different awards. The Balon d'or (56-2009) was European player of the year (George Best, Michael Owen etc.)..although the last two years made it for the world's best, the FIFA Balon d'or for the world player of the year. The Balon d'or is a mess of an award (well done France Football) and should be kept separate to avoid confusion. The FIFA Balon d'or is a direct successor to the FIFA World Player of the Year (a merger with this I'd be much more in agreement with). Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 23:15, 17 September 2016 UTC)
While that might be your interpretation of events, it's not one supported by most reliable sources. It's not Wikipedia's job to determine what is or isn't a Ballon d'Or. We go by what's reported by France Football, the Telegraph, the BBC, etc. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 08:14, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not my interpretation as evidenced by the sport's governing body. World player of the year listed at the top...from the FIFA World Player of the Year to the FIFA Balon d'or. The fault here lies with France Football and their changing mess of an award (Ballon d'Or (1956–2009)..perhaps they kept changing what it meant to stay relevant. Michael Owen was European player of the year, not world player of the year: same year Luis Figo was FIFA world player of the year (what would be now the FIFA Balon d'or) hence he is in direct lineage and is listed as such. Carlos Rojas77 (talk) 13:08, 18 September 2016 UTC)
Sorry, didn't see your comment. Now I'm really not sure what you're arguing or what FIFA's overview proves. Of course these past six editions are also part of the history of the FIFA World Player of the Year. They're integral to both awards. And to reiterate: the Ballon d'Or saw three different incarnations — European, European-based, global — all before FIFA ever got involved. Post-FIFA it will continue to be awarded globally. Ronaldo 2016 will be different in scope to Owen 2001; that doesn't mean both aren't Ballon d'Or winners. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 08:07, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Come January, when the Ballon d'Or is presumably presented, we will have the definitive sources to determine the course of action. I don't care enough about the topic to discuss it extensively now when others are opposed, so I'll reopen the topic then, probably with wider community input via an RfC. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 08:14, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just a little remark: I came here to find out more about this award as I read in the press that the Ballon d'Or would once more me standalone and what I get is this ridiculous article which only spans six years! From an layman's point of view it seems obvious that this is not helpful in the least: merge it with the FIFA award article or with the Ballon d'Or article, or with both, which seems the most sensible course of action, but this article on its own is pointless. 128.36.7.246 (talk) 00:44, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree! If merged, it should be into both the Ballon d'or and FIFA World Player of the Year articles as the FIFA Ballon d'Or is a continuation of both awards. France Football credit Messi and Ronaldo with five and three Ballons d'Or in total (with four and two of them as the FIFA Ballon d'or) http://www.francefootball.fr/ballon-d-or/palmares/. Also, FIFA credit Messi and Ronaldo with five and three World Player of the Year awards in total (again four and two of them as the FIFA Ballon d'or) http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/fifa-awards.html#player. So I see no use of the FIFA Ballon d'Or having a seperate article as all of it can easily be merged into these articles. If I had the choice to merge it with only one of them, then it should be the FIFA WPOTY article as the voting system for the FIFA Ballon d'or was more similar to the FIFA WPOTY than the Ballon d'or. Of course we have to mark in the Ballon d'or and FIFA World Player of the Year articles (tabels) that Ronaldo and Messi won these awards as the FIFA Ballon d'or. (talk) 17:31, 6 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO, this would be a great solution.--Dipralb (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2016[edit]


At the beginning, 3rd paragraph. deal between them has endeed. It should be ended. It is written as "endeed" which is wrong. Harshvar92 (talk) 06:57, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Will update. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 08:08, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article serves no purpose and should be deleted[edit]

There were several discussions above about the purpose of this article during 2010-15 when the "FIFA Ballon d'Or" still existed. I would say the case for this article existing back then was fairly weak, but the case for it continuing to exist now is almost non-existent. Essentially all of the information on this page is already contained in the Ballon d'Or article and the articles on the FIFA awards. Any information that isn't already contained in those articles could easily be accommodated in a sentence or two if necessary. It is worth mentioning (as those other articles do) the existence of the FIFA Ballon d'Or between 2010 and 2015, but it's little more than a sidenote in the history of the other awards and in no way does it merit an entire page. Indeed, I can't imagine a single reason why anyone would want to read this instead of the other articles. Likely all this page is really doing is acting as an annoyance for a few people who randomly end up here while searching for the Ballon d'Or article. 2A02:C7D:664F:A400:FDCA:204B:BF80:94DA (talk) 16:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. This was established as a separate award. Saying this is the same award as the France Football Ballon d'Or would be like saying the Premier League is the same as the Football League First Division; you can collate those wins and say Manchester United have won 20 English league titles, but you couldn't say they've won 20 Premier League titles. Similarly, you can say Lionel Messi has won seven Ballons d'Or, but only four FIFA Ballons d'Or. Maybe we can re-examine that later, but it's too soon to simply consign the FIFA Ballon d'Or to being a footnote in the history of the Ballon d'Or. – PeeJay 10:00, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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