Talk:FIFA World Cup/Archive 3

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Summaries table

-Is it not getting a little ahead to include South Africa 2010 in the winners Summary list? It might serve to inform that SA will be the next hosts but this could be done elsewhere. The empty line to Germany is appropriate as this is a current event and will soon be filled, but SA 2010 is 4 years away and seems out of place in a summary of historical results.

-in the list of this year world cup some one had put france were in the final when they havent got though yet i have fixed this and put italy who are though and germany in a runners up place like they are if you have a problem with this please contact me at my talk page before reverting as it is vandalism to delete things if they are not wrong with out consulting the person who did it --Hunter91 17:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

-I second that; it's obviously wrong to try and predict results like that. However for the summary section, isn't it appropriate to fill out the finalists/future venues? They may not have happened yet, but they are still informative and historical. Maybe the 'results' heading could be changed to something else to include this? - Aheyfromhome

???

Well... What's this? Conscious 04:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

What's the question? I believe they're allowed to copy it but they have to license it under GFDL... AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 12:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
They don't even mention GFDL, neither do they credit the authors. Conscious 16:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
There are no contact details on the site, and a WHOIS gives postal details only, so I've sent a standard letter to the postal address and listed it on Wikipedia:Mirrors and Forks. Oldelpaso 19:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is mentioned on the about page. The site does also appear to have correct attributation on bottom of everypage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.92.181.183 (talk • contribs) .

That's a welcome development. I'll update the status on the mirrors and forks page, Oldelpaso 07:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Appearance table removed

I removed the table of the top 10 nations by appearances, as concerns about the number of tables have been voiced in the FAC. I judged the appearance table as the least valuable, particularly as a fuller version is present in National team appearances in the FIFA World Cup. Oldelpaso 21:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Host selection

From the FAC: "*Weak oppose. I'm not sure how much information is available but the "Selection of Hosts" section has only one sentence for every WC between 1930 and 1998, and then almost a paragraph each for 2002, 2006 and 2010-2018. I'd like to see more info on how the host is actually selected (submission process, shortlisting, voting, ???) and then maybe also a subsection on controversies, of which I'm sure there have been more than just the hoax bribe for 2006. I'm willing to help out with this, just didn't think it should be featured until there is a bit more info in this section. Thanks AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 08:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)"

I think the best way to sort that section out is to provide a clear description of the current voting process (Robdurbar has made a good change), and to move material to a new article FIFA World Cup host selection controversies, rather than a subsection. This could encompass other hosting controversies, such as boycotts of 1938 by Uruguay and Argentina due to an anticipation that it would be held in South America, and things like Henry Kissinger considering sueing FIFA after 1986 was given to Mexico instead of the USA. I have a book (Great Balls of Fire by John Sugden and Alan Tomlinson) which has a lot of info about this sort of thing. Oldelpaso 09:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

If we have enough info then I don't see why not, the internet prove fairly fruitless :).
Perhaps if the page was more simply called FIFA World Cup host countries then it could be a more comprehensive page mentioning the selection of each country and the methods used to chose them; this article would then include a summary of the whole thing Robdurbar 09:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's far more logical than my suggestion. Oldelpaso 10:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I've made the page FIFA World Cup hosts, feel free to mercilessly edit it -- it's not perfect by any means... more historical information would be nice. Suggestions, comments, questions? All can be placed at that article's discussion page. Cheers! — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 09:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Featured!

This article is featured now. Congratulations to everyone who worked on it! Conscious 06:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to put forth my congratulations also (especially Oldelpaso and Conscious, for tireless copyediting and whatnot). Now, our next step is to take it to Main Page FAs, and reserve our spot for June 9 (opening day of 2006 World Cup! — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 15:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to add my congrats message about this. It is fitting that this artice should be a featured piece of work as soccer is the most popular sport in the world. The World Cup is also more popular than the Olympic Games. --Siva1979Talk to me 16:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Siva1979, remember to always cite such broad claims as "The World Cup is also more popular than the Olympic Games." Oh, sorry, that was WP:FA talking. My bad :P — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 19:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Citation needed for this claim?! No wonder, you are living in the USA! It is widely accepted worldwide that the World Cup is much more popular than the Olympic Games. This view is held by Singaporean journalists. However, I admit that I can't seem to find official confirmation for this remark. Thus, I need the help of European football (notice I did not use the term 'soccer'!) fans to support my claim. Does anyone have any official reference for this claim? --Siva1979Talk to me 21:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Siva, are you sure you have read this edit summary? Conscious 08:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Coming from a place where losing a game of ball could cost you a limb, I'm going to have to say that at least where I am football is much more popular than anything Olympic. Of course, I'm no official source. Correction officer06 20:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

28 billion people?

The article says that the cup gets 28 billion viewers. That can't possibly be right, seeing as there aren't that many humans alive at any given time. Does anyone know the correct figure? The linked reference says that 37 billion people watched it, so that's even less helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Verbophobe (talk • contribs)

I think it means cumulative, ie the same person is counted twice if they watch 2 matches. It's probably impossible to estimate how many individual viewers watched at least one match. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 04:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Presumably one person watching two matches simultaneously would be counted twice. Abut 13:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it explicitly states that the figure is cumulative. Badgerpatrol 14:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Unofficial World Champion

I just discovered this Who are the unofficial 1966 World Champions? and Unofficial world champions from 1930. I think it might make an interesting article (needs to be updated). Jooler 09:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

See Unofficial World Football Championship (p.s. its Romania). Robdurbar 09:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Ahh well there you go. Thanks! Jooler 09:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
pps. Its Uruguay, and has been for about a month now. Philc TECI 15:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Most successful World Cup Teams since 1966

Tournament 1966 1970 1974 1978 1982 1986 1990 1994 1998 2002
1. Brazil Group WON 4 3 Rnd2 QF Rnd2 WON 2 WON
2. Germany 2 3 WON QF 2 2 WON QF QF 2
3. Argentina Q/F DNQ Group WON Rnd2 WON 2 Rnd2 QF Group
4. Italy national football team Group 2 Group 4 WON Rnd2 3 2 QF Rnd2
5. England national football team WON QF DNQ DNQ Rnd2 QF 4 DNQ Rnd2 QF
6. France national football team Group DNQ DNQ Group 4 3 DNQ DNQ WON Group
7. Netherlands DNQ DNQ 2 2 DNQ DNQ Rnd2 QF 4 DNQ

The above table was removed from the article. I don't think it really adds anything and repeats info from other tables on Wikipedia (and need to be formatted anyway); its also subjective, and starts arbitrairily in 1966; but I've left it here just in case anyone thinks it could be worked into an article or this article? --Robdurbar 16:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I like the look of the table - Gives a quick synopsis of each of the top countries performances at a quick glance - I haven't seen this elsewhere on Wikipedia. No reason it seems to start at 1966 I agree and the ordering from 1-7 is subjective but for me the concept is good and it should be tidied up and added to the core page or to a new page.

There is already such table. Conscious 06:00, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article of the Day box

Hey, just wondering what everybody would want the box to look like, if the article were to go as the featured article of the day on June 9... I've drawn up the following as a suggestion. Any thoughts for a better picture (though it doesn't look as bad as I thought it would, we need a better picture for the main page)?

The FIFA World Cup is the most important men's competition in international football. The world's most representative team sport event, the World Cup is contested by the men's national football teams of Federation Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) (the sport's largest governing body) member nations. The championship has been awarded every four years since the first tournament in 1930 (except in 1942 and 1946 due to World War II). However, it is more of an ongoing event as the qualifying rounds of the competition take place over the three years preceding the final rounds. In 1991, FIFA added a separate Women's World Cup.

The men's final tournament phase (often called the "Finals") involves 32 national teams competing over a four-week period in a previously nominated host nation, with these games making it the most widely-viewed sporting event in the world. In the 17 tournaments held, only seven nations have ever won the World Cup Finals. Brazil is the current holder, as well as the most successful World Cup team, having won the tournament five times, while Germany and Italy follow with three titles each. The next World Cup Finals will begin in Germany on June 9, and will continue until July 9, 2006. (More...)

Note that this is only a draft (I just copied the lead section). Any ideas of how to improve it? — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 00:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Changed last sentence, as when this is planned on being the featured article, the Finals will be going on. — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 05:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Yay! We finally found a decent picture. I am going to submit this right away. — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 05:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


Posted. See it here! — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 05:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

A minor change - the last sentence really ought to 'till July 9th'; 'through' is an Americanism so may not be understood by people speaking other variants of English (or at least sounds a little odd). Is there some template that the change can be made at or should it just be edited on the tomorrow's featured article page? --Robdurbar 12:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The change has been made: through => until. I will recopy the box into Tomorrow's featured article page so that we have the same copy here and at that page. — Ian Manka Talk to me! 14:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Posted on my talk page earlier today: "You requested FIFA world cup be the main page FA for June 9, the day it starts. Featured artilce is not supposed to conflict with other sections on the main page (the selected anniversaries or in the news). The FIFA world cup article will definitely be linked from the news section on June 9, so that's out. I am willing, however, to put it up on the 8th. Raul654 05:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)"
So, do we just let FIFA World Cup be Main Page FA on the 8 June? That works for me. In my opinion, just getting it on the Main Page is really cool. Any suggestions for other suitable dates? I'll give everyone a day to respond, then I'm just going to say "yes" to Raul. — Ian Manka Talk to me! 10:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

What about the day of the final? That would mean leaving it till July 9 though. If that's a clash too then yeah, probably the 8th as it will help up the excitement! --Robdurbar 11:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

We got selected for June 8. Go us! — Ian Manka Talk to me! 20:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Current Sports Event

Should we tag this as a current event? --Robdurbar 20:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Naw, wait until June 7 or so. By then, we will most likely be lined up for Main Page FA (keep your fingers crossed), and then we can start making final changes and whatnot. — Ian Manka Talk to me‼ 01:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The template says "Information may change rapidly as the event progresses", I'm not sure if it's necessary because the information in this article in principal shouldn't change very much at all. But it would be nice to have something at the top to direct people to the 2006 article in order to prevent insignificant detail about 2006 being added to this article. But yeh if it does get put on, wait till june 7 as ian said. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 04:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
{{dab_current}} looks like the tag to use. Oldelpaso 21:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Nice find AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 08:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

We might want to add this information...

Check out Silver medal#World Cup. I think we should: (1) Merge this information into the article (or a similiar one -- I don't which one) and (2) find a source for this information. Any ideas? — Ian Manka Talk to me! 17:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Women World Cup

Since this article is clearly about men WC, and since it i longer that it should, and since we have a "See also" section reference to Women WC, why not removing the part about the Women WC? In particular, why should we be interested in the difference about how ranking is handled?--Panairjdde 21:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The ranking stuff can go, I agree. I'll make an edit in a few seconds that should fix your concerns. — Ian Manka Talk to me! 21:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It has been changed. I've taken out the women's rankings portion and have moved the Men's ranking down to the "final tournament" section. What do you think? — Ian Manka Talk to me! 21:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It is better, but now the fact that FIFA created a women WC in 1991 is repeated two times. I would remove them both, and put a note.--Panairjdde 22:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the second mention -- I didn't realize that the same thing was mentioned twice. — Ian Manka Talk to me! 22:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

How are team strips selected

I've looked everywhere to find out if 2 teams have the same colour strips how is it decided which team should wear their away strip? It would be good if someone could explain this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.104.42.153 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC).

Unless they can agree, I believe they just toss a cooin to decide, although I have no source for this. Badgerpatrol 16:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
No, one of the teams is always "hosting" the game. For example, in Poland-Ecuador (June 9) Poland are hosts (that's why their name is given first). Conscious 16:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced claim removed from the article

Here it goes:

FIFA have announced that if Brazil win the trophy for the 3rd time in 2006 it will be retired and a new trophy will be designed for the 2010 tournament.

Conscious 15:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You did the right thing. According to newspaper articles in Singapore, this claim is false. Brazil will have to return the trophy back to FIFA if they win it again. --Siva1979Talk to me 02:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

France 1938

"The decision to hold the second of these, the 1938 FIFA World Cup in France was controversial, as the American countries had been led to understand that the World Cup would rotate between the two continents. Both Argentina and Uruguay thus boycotted the tournament." must be an joke... Your note never say that! Argentina was not in France in 1938 not because of a boycott but for financial reasons at the last minute. There were riots in Buenos Aires for days after that argentian abandon. Uruguay et United States (you forgot them?) didn't go for financials and political reasons. 84.103.176.100 01:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC) (Utilisateur:Clio64 on the french WP)

Any sources for this? Conscious 10:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Clean up

While I think this article is great, and take off my hat to those who wrote it, I think perhaps the Awards and Records and statistics section should either be turned into prose, or removed off the main article as the somewhat random lists do not reflect well on the quality of the rest of the article. Any thoughts? Páll (Die pienk olifant) 01:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Finally!

Finally, this article is featured as Today's featured article on June 8, 2006. It is about time as well, considering the importance of this tournament. --Siva1979Talk to me 02:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's far more important than it should be. The FIFA World Cup's popularity is the perfect example of the commercial sector and peer pressure teaming up to enforce a hype upon the world up to the point where part of me secretly hopes that terrorists will target the very first official World Cup match with something non-lethal like sleeping gas so that for one day at least the news will be blessedly devoid of all the jammering on about Football. Yes I understand that football is fun for the fans, now it's time for the fans to understand football is not as fun for the rest of us who would like to finally resume eating food that isn't doused in one's country's national colours. Rant over, nothing to see here. Robrecht 04:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't a soapbox, and it most definitely isn't a place for you to contemplate terrorist activities in, Robrecht. —Michiel Sikma 「Gebruiker/Overleg」 05:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Quote - "Someone said 'football is more important than life and death to you' and I said 'Listen, it's more important than that'." Bill Shankly -- Alias Flood 05:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The World Cup only comes along once every four years. It is and should be a very important event for all humanity. There is no other time when people all across the world are more united or happy. Beyond the football, that's the incentive: the world just comes closer together during the World Cup. The lives of millions of people will be dominated by this tournament in this next month. That's not a bad thing; we all want to forget the rigors and monotony of our daily lives every once in a while. Now, of course, if either Brazil or the Netherlands win, then I'll be particularly happy.UberCryxic 02:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Cup?

The trophy is not in the shape of a cup. 205.174.22.28 04:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Could it be that we've all been calling it the wrong name all these years? Disaster! Quick, we have about 2 million tickets to recall and reprint by tomorrow afternoon! Badgerpatrol 04:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The current trophy is the 2nd of its kind. Does anyone know if the 1st (which, if memory serves, was stolen in Brazil in the 70s and supposedly melted down) was shaped like a cup? Raul654 04:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
To an extent. It was cup-esque I suppose- certainly more than the modern one. see here. Badgerpatrol 04:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia, of course, has an article - see FIFA World Cup Trophy. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Second largest?

I think that I once read, or saw on TV, that the FIFA World Cup is the second largest sporting event in the world, second to only the Olympics. Makes sense to me, but I wasn't able to find any sources that prove this. Maybe you guys have better sources. What do you recon? —Michiel Sikma 「Gebruiker/Overleg」 05:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Found the source claiming Paralympics are the second largest: [1]. If you define it in terms of number of participants, the World Cup if far behind (23*32 << 4000). Conscious 05:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This depends obviously on how you calculate 'size'. The Football World Cup is generally regarded as the largest sporting event because: it generates the most interest in terms of TV viewers, media coverage and sponsorship; it generates the most revenue; it involves the most nations (207 FIFA Countries vs 203 Olympic). It would also presumably have the largest number of participants if you included the qualifying matches.130.237.175.198 10:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If all 207 countries were to use an average of 20 competitors, it would bring out a larger figure than the parlympics. Bear in mind that not quite all FIFA nations enter the World Cup every year - there's usualy 2 or 3 who don't - so the figure is probably something like the 4000 who compete in the paralympics, if we include the qualifying. --Robdurbar 10:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Unequivocally, the World Cup is by far the largest sporting event in the world, and will be until something can replace football as the dominant sport on Earth. Currently, about 75% of all sports fans on the planet are primarily football fans. That gives you an idea on how important the World Cup is. TV viewership for the World Cup practically breaks a record every time. Something like two billion people saw France and Brazil in 1998; no equivalent numbers for any other event, be it in sports or something else.UberCryxic 02:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

How many countries list football as their national sport? Jooler 08:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

See National sports. Grant 10:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Home Field Advantage

At the end of the Successful National Teams subheader, there is currently a link for the term "supportive crowd" that redirects to the 12th Man. Does anybody else think this should instead link to Home field advantage? Runch 16:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not a big deal IMO. In addition, the 2 articles you mention are interlinked. Maybe they should be merged? Conscious 17:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the two are pretty well interchangeable on this occasion. There is already a proposal that they should be merged and discussions to this effect where opinions are invited. Please see the articles themselves for links to the discussions. Alias Flood 18:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

1930 World Cup - 3rd place

If what the footnote states - that there were no third place - is correct, then why is there two teams on third place. If nothing was awarded, then surely no teams should be mentioned either? If we can agree they did not finish third, and they did not finish fourth, then they shouldn't be in the table. Poulsen 06:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Because I lost that argument already, see thar first archive above. That was my position about 6 months ago, but another user kept changing it. The argument ended up on WP:LAME and what we have now is the compromise solution. Jooler 07:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC) See Talk:United States men's national soccer team, where the argument about 3rd place was recently re-ignited. Jooler 07:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it was that recent argument that made me think, if consensus is that no secondary places were awarded, then it would be logical not to have the table appear so. Especially User:Johan Elisson's link to FIFA World Cup All-time Awards page made me think so. But if this has reached a kind of compromise, I wouldn't start anything again :) Poulsen 07:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Then again if you look at http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/p/pwc/1930.html - and the bottom of the page it says - "Official FIFA World Cup™ Awards" - it lists Winner and Second, but not 3rd or 4th. Check out the other World Cups and you will note the difference. I am going to be bold and remove the USA/Yugoslavia. The person who was complaining last time User:Supersexyspacemonkey has not contributed here for a while. 07:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I am being bold too, and replacing USA and Yugoslavia. Please note that semi-finalists are recognized in the very same format on European Football Championship. Uris 00:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
No you're putting USA under a heading that says 3rd and Yugoslavia under a heading that says 4th and then just changing the uppoer heading from 'Third Place Match' to' Semi-finalists'. Jooler 00:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
If you want to make it more like European Football Championship, please do. But it works better than deleting the teams. I'm not sure I have the capability of changing the headers of the table twice and having it come off cleanly. You're right, it would be even more correct that way... but either way is more appropriate than deleting the semi-finalists completely. The "and" with the link to explanation makes this quite understandable that there was no match played and were both semi-finalists, as in the Euro table. Uris 00:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
In what way is it "better" to say that the USA finished 3rd and Yugolslavia finished 4th, when that is just not true. A factual error is "better". You must be using some strange definition of the word "better" that I haven't come across before. Jooler 00:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, it's saying "USA and Yugoslavia" were semi-finalists. Yes, the line-up in the 3rd and 4th place columns, which isn't so bad since they finished in 3rd and 4th place. If you can fix it though, please help out. Uris 00:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
In order to avoid any more grief with this I've reverted it to the consensus that was agreed last year. Jooler 00:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I think we could make it even better if it was like the Euro chart for years they didn't play the Third Place match... I will try to get it done at some point (if anyone can help, it would be appreciated). Uris 00:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify your position - would it therefore be equally acceptable to you to put Yugoslavia under the 3rd column and USA under the 4th? I should point out that I have absolutely no intention of doing that because that would lead to the false impression that Yugoslavia finished 3rd and USA 4th which would still be a factual error. But I just want to know if you would find that acceptable, if you came to this page and saw it laid out that way. Jooler 01:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not about 3rd or 4th, it's about recognizing all semi-finalists even when no game was played. Again, see the Euro Results Table which does the same thing. Alphabetical order would seem to be the standard practice. Uris 03:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Right so you would accept Kingdom of Yugoslavia under the 3rd column and United States under the 4th then? Jooler 08:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a moot point now, but obviously no one would accept that because the team played as Yugoslavia, not Kingdom of Yugoslavia. You seem to have an ax to grind, with no apparent rationale. Uris 12:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Come on guys, we've been through all this already. Having them placed in 3rd and 4th is tendentious, so we either have both on the 3rd plcae column or not having them at all. Mariano(t/c) 08:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The way it is now is fine- it is grossly misleading to put either the USA OR Yugoslavia in 3rd/4th; it simply isn't true. The table as it now stands makes it clear (to my eyes at least) that those two were the semi-finalists, and that there was no 3rd place match. What else need by said? Badgerpatrol 08:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay no problem. That is the compromise that was agreed before. Jooler 09:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, Badgerpatrol, the compromise solution is the most logical, and most people seem fine with it.--Supersexyspacemonkey 23:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

1920's olympic games

According to the monument to world champions outside the Estadio Centenario (The stadium in Montevideo where the first world cup was held), Belgium won the gold medal in 1920. Can someone check that info and add it?--Rataube 13:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the article on Football at the 1920 Summer Olympics Belgium did win the medal. Should we add it?--Rataube 14:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Done. Conscious 14:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Map image needs revision

The image of the world cup champion nations needs revision. Brazil is not shown and south america is cut in half. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.8.68 (talk • contribs)

It is shown, but perhaps your screen resolution is set to only 256 colours and it has turned the pale blue/grey into white, or perhaps your contrast/brightnedd needs adjustment. Nevertheless, whoever made the map made a poor choice with regard the colours. Jooler 21:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

1950 scores

The 1950 scores shouldn't be in the table of finals and third place matches. Although those games ended up deciding the winner and the third-placer, they were games in a group format. The famous Uruguay-Brazil match differed from a final in one significant respect : a draw would have given Brazil the Cup. Mentioning the scores of the games in the footnote is enough. Jess Cully 22:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Links underneath the flags

Suggestion: In the table showing the results of the world cups tournaments, the links on the country names should point to the pages of the respective national teams, rather than to the countries themselves.

The link you are talking about is the host of the tournament though. It wouldn't make sense to link it to the team. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 06:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

British Associations withdrawl from FIFA

The article currently says "British teams withdrew from FIFA in 1920, partly out of unwillingness to play against the countries they had been at war with, and partly as a protest against a foreign influence to football." - The second clause is not quite correct. The FA and the associations of the other "home nations" did not wish to play against the former Central Powers (Austra, Hungary and Germany), but they were not alone, the French, Belgian and Luxembourg Football Associations also refused to play them. At a meeting in Brussels on 29 December 1919 a meeting proposed that these nations break with FIFA and form a new body that was going to be called "The Federation of National Football Associations". The countries that had been neutral during the war called the rebel associations' bluff. The president of the Belgian FA then wrote to the President of The Football Association mellowing their position he wrote - "It is certain that an uncompromising attitude on our part would, speaking in a sporting sense, throw several neutrals into the arms of the Central Powers. ... let them [the former neutrals] come to a decision of their own free will rather than to force them to declare themselves in our favour". He (The Belgian President) then went on to say that they would still refuse to play the former Central Powers during the upcoming Olympics (and as it turned out they were banned from the whole compettion anyway) and would await further discussions following the Olympics. The FA then jumped the gun an unanimously withdrew on April 23 1920 quickly followed by the other home nations. So it wasn't so much the "foreign influence" as much as the majority of the former foreign neutrals. Pages 304-306 History of The Football Association Geoffrey Green (1954) Jooler 10:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Quote from [2]:
The four British football associations - those of Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales - had withdrawn from football's governing body FIFA back in 1920. There had been arguments over the suitability of playing teams with whom Britain had recently been at war, and more importantly a general feeling that there was now too much foreign influence in what was surely a British game!
Please correct the article if you want but do not omit this opinion. Conscious 10:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The opinion of the author of that piece? Jooler 10:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yep. Conscious 10:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I'm not trying to be obtuse but you're confusing me. You think that the article should include the opinion of the author of that piece, someone working for Scottish Cultural Resources Access Network, that the reason that they left FIFA was because, to use an appropriate idiom, the FA said it was the their ball that everybody was playing with anyway. Jooler 11:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought that was a BBC article. Conscious 11:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah it is actually. My mistake, it is the pictures that are © SCRAN. But whatever there's no author pinned to article. I still don't see what that author's opinion has to do with it. Jooler 11:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
They rejoined in 1924 but left once more in 1928, this time in protest about the practice among a number of other Associations whereby players were technically playing as amateurs and eligible to play in the Olympics but were receiving backhand payments. The FA had resolved this problem in England 40 years earlier by making the distinction between amateur players and professionals very clear. Jooler 10:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Changing American to British Spelling

For the record, this article is not UK-centric and thus does not require UK spelling. Not to mention that the US has been a part of World Cups for longer than England has. There is no reason to revert the spelling of the article to the old British style, but I won't put up a big fuss about it. Uris 22:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes there should, it's wiki policy. It's always best to use Commonwealth English unless it is specifically a US article, even if it's a "neutral" one such as this. Incidentally, if we are to use American stylings on the article why not go around and call it "soccer". Although it's true a great fuss shouldn't be made, even US English is never really American as it still originates from England/Britain - a time when there was no standardised spelling. On a lighthearted note, England may be only "half" an island but it still helped to conquer 1/4 of the world and, as part of the UK of GBNI is still a major world power. Not that I'm an imperialist or anything. hedpeguyuk 22:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't embarass yourself, hedpeguyuk. It certainly is not Wiki policy that it is best to use British or 'Commonwealth' English for all non-US centred articles- see the MOS [3]. If the main bulk of the article has been written in one style or the other, then that is the way it should stay- whether it is in US or any other dialect of English. Exceptions are made only if there is a specific and irrefutable tie between an article's subject and a particular national language variety. Life is too short to look through the history and check which variety of English has priority on this article- I trust everyone can sort it out like adults rather than resorting to petty edit wars or nationalistic chest-beating (however light-hearted) a la the above comment. Badgerpatrol 23:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Nationalistic chest-beating?!?! And I'm not even English. OK, I apologise...It's just Uris made a remark of England being a small island nation (sic) as if its size (area) had any great revelance. Anyway, I would like to suggest that as Football is a largely British creation (even if the World Cup is not) then, in this instance, there is a tie between the article's subject and a particular variety regardless of "who played in it first". But if someone does want to change it to US Eng. I'll live and let live. hedpeguyuk 23:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That's alright then, you're forgiven ;-). (Sadly I've been worn out this week by some fairly tiresome America v the ROW arguing over on the main page talk re World Cup scores on the main page- apologies if I misinterpreted the tone of your comment). I wouldn't say that football is so identified as British so as to necessitate the use of British english; it's an international game. However, if Uris is unilaterally changing the pre-existing precedent for one or the other language style, then it is he who is in the wrong (as laid out in the manual of style). PS- I also noticed that comment; I wonder what he meant by 'island nation'. Hopefully as in 'a nation that makes up part of an island' rather than 'a nation that makes up the whole of an island'- I'm not English either ;-). Maybe we should start a geography wiki? It seems there could be a use for it... Badgerpatrol 00:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
For the record, the article had US English spelling originally ("organized") and it was changed to UK English ("organised") and the reason given was that this is not a US-centric article and thus must be UK English (which is obviously wrong). Also, I said that England is a "small island nation", which is true... just because they can't claim more than half their island for England doesn't mean they aren't an "island nation", does it? Would we not consider Haiti to be an "island nation" as well as Cuba? I should pride myself on being just about the only American I know who actually knows the difference between England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom. Almost everyone on this side of the water thinks that either the term Great Britain is outdated and/or meaningless, or they think that it means the exact same thing as United Kingdom. Do I fault Americans for not much caring about British geography, or do I fault the Brits for making everything more confusing than it should be? Perhaps a little of both... either way, for my part I know my world geography quite well, thank ye! I can even point out Monaco, San Marino, Romania, and Ukraine on an unmarked European map... how many Americans can do that? (Not many, because it's not tested in our school system... granted, our educational system doesn't teach much until the college level.) Uris 13:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, this is the first relevent diff I can find to assist us in making a decision: [4], from 2001 I believe. It seems to establish the use of Commonwealth English per the MOS, but I must stress that this shouldn't be a big deal- what we don't want is any edit warring over something as insignificant as which mode of the language to use. So long as the article is internally consistent and we can all understand it, then that's all that matters. Cwealth English has priority in this case as a matter of procedure, but that needn't be taken to mean anything outside of a technical matter. Apologies for making everything confusing btw; an elegant solution might be to use large quantities of dynamite to detach England from the rest of the country and float it off across the Atlantic, thus simplifying things here at home. I would venture that this might be quite a popular solution amongst certain segments of the UK population, particularly at the moment. ;-) Badgerpatrol 15:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
That does seem to establish Commonwealth English for this article... so even though "organize" may have made it into the article before "organise" ever did, I'm okay with this new change. I want to say though that I have nothing against island-dwellers. In fact, I currently reside on an island myself! As a final remark though, I must point out to all that football (soccer), like many contributions of lasting value from the UK mistakenly credited to England, was likely invented in Scotland. This information, as with all else, I have gleaned from the Wikipedia article on the subject. Uris 16:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Note: There is nothing uniquely American about using the Greek/Latin-derived 'organize' in preference to the French-derived 'organise'. Both are perfectly good British English. Grant 12:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Wait, so why should we prefer one style over another? I naturally assumed Commonwealth spelling because it is more universal than American. --Hurricane Angel 03:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
If by that you mean more widespread geographically and demographically, that may or may not be the case, and has been the subject of various lengthy debates in the past. However, Wikipedia policy on this issue is laid out clearly in the MOS (see my link above). It really isn't worth getting worked up about- simply put, whatever has been the prevailing style up till now should stay, whether US, Commonwealth, or whatever. Badgerpatrol 03:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You really should read the MOS, guys. Badgerpatrol is right, this article should use the style that it mostly uses. And there's no default style for Wikipedia. Conscious 06:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

If england is an island nation for being on an island, every nation is an island, becasue every piece of land is completely surrounded by sea. Philc TECI 13:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you an elementary school child? Many elementary school children, when first learning geographical terms such as these, correctly point out that all continents are surrounded by water too, and are thus technically islands themselves. See here. (Either way, touché!) Uris 13:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Given that this article uses football rather than soccer throughout and has done since it was first created five years ago; anyone thinks that this should suddenly start using US English is just being belligerent. Jooler 10:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Listen everyone, you need to understand both UK and US English. Some points to bear in mind:

  • A consistent style is helpful. By all means, call it "football" throughout. It is recommended [5], that one standard of English (e.g. UK, US, AU) be used throughout a Wikipedia article.
  • But do not get upset by variations, e.g. words ending in "-ize" or "-ise", "-or" or "-our", "-g" or "-gue". If it does annoy you, then solve that problem within yourself.
  • Where UK and US words differ, it's helpful to include both, e.g. nappy (diaper). That's just an example, not a reference to anything on this page.
  • Since you probably encounter both standards (and other varieties) of English every day, you need to be able to cope with variation. That's a fact that no policy or standard will change.

So calm down and get a life.   Abut 20:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Table moved from article

Team Titles Winning years Runners-up Third-place (please fill in)
 Brazil 5 1958, 1962, 1970, 1994, 2002 2 (1950*, 1998) 2 (1938, 1978)
 Germany 3 1954, 1974*, 1990
(all as West Germany) 		4 (1966, 1982, 1986, 2002)
(all but latest as West Germany) 		2 (1934, 1970)
(Nazi Germany and West Germany)
 Italy 3 1934*, 1938, 1982 2 (1970, 1994) 1 (1990*)
 Argentina 2 1978*, 1986 2 (1930, 1990) -
 Uruguay 2 1930*, 1950 - -
 England 1 1966* - -
 France 1 1998* - 2 (1958, 1986)
 Czechoslovakia - - 2 (1934, 1962) -
 Hungary - - 2 (1938, 1954) -
 Netherlands - - 2 (1974, 1978) -
 Sweden - - 1 (1958*) 2 (1950, 1994)
 United States - - - 1 (1930^)
 Austria - - - 1 (1954)
 Poland - - - 2 (1974, 1982)
* = hosts
^ = no 3rd place match was ever played. FIFA has since ranked the United States as the 3rd place team for the 1930 World Cup Tournament (please cite).

Whoever created this table, please finish it before putting in the article. It's a featured article and it shouldn't contain comments like "please fill in". Additionally, I'm not sure third places should be included at all. Conscious 10:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


I added the table, and I apologize for not finishing it. Bad form. Regardless, it's finished now and I put it back up. The only thing I noticed I wasn't able to do was cite the 1930 3rd place finish of the USA. As we all know, there was no 3rd place match, but FIFA has since ranked the USA as third, which can be seen by going here:

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/releases/en/fwc_origin_en.pdf (page 2)

Also, I think this link should replace the link "FIFA Official Ranking of All Participants at Finals 1930-2002 (PDF)" since it is missing the second page presented in the link I posted.

I do think it is important to list the 3rd place match, since the winners of 3rd place are given a medal. Indeed, it is the only match of the knock-out round where each participant has already lost a match in the same round. Bottom line, if 3rd place didn't matter then FIFA wouldn't organize the game. -Steve from Maryland 10:00, 16 June 2006 (EST).

I'd also like to add that in the particular instance of the 1930 3rd place debate, the notice of the two semi-finalists (with no 3rd place match) is fantastic. But, adding the 3rd place column let's people know that FIFA eventually did rank the USA and YUG as 3rd and 4th respectively, in addition to highlighting the importance placed on the 3rd place match (which was instituted in '34). Just some thoughts.

If we can agree, could you (or someone) please take the initiative to cite the USA 3rd place column with the link I posted above, in whatever manner you deam appropriate. I would do it myself, but I can't figure out the syntax. Thank you. -Steve from Maryland

Done. Conscious 15:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! And again, my apologies. - Steve from Maryland.

Not this AGAIN - The conclusion regarding that document is that the USA are listed 3rd and Yugoslavia listed 4th simply because they follow alphabetically. See 9th, 10th and 11 place for 1934 where the performance is the same but the teams are shown in alphabetic order. - If you look at this page and loads of others you will see that no third place honours were awarded in 1930. Jooler 11:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
You can see the discussion regarding this [United_States_men%27s_national_soccer_team/Archive_1#Forget_About_It... here]. I don't buy the argument for this table. Why 3rd place and not 4th place aswell? FIFA makes awards for both. I suspoect that Steve from Maryland, USA was amending the table so that he could put USA in there. Jooler 11:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd appreciate if you fixed it. Conscious 19:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Jooler, you are so wrong and this is why: First, not once did I EVER say that any 3rd place honors were awarded in 1930. In fact, I specifically mentioned that there was no 3rd place match - way to put words in my mouth. Second, the reason Argentina, France, and The Netherlands were listed in alphabetical order in the 1934 Cup is b/c of goal differential (each at -1), see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_FIFA_World_Cup (you'll have to do the math). Third, the reason the USA has now been ranked (not awarded) 3rd place for the 1930 tournament is also b/c of goal differntial. The USA finished with +1, while Yugoslavia finished with 0. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1930_FIFA_World_Cup (under performance of teams) and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_team_appearances_in_the_FIFA_World_Cup (in the team chart) and here: http://www.rsssf.com/tables/30f.html (just to show the Wiki info is correct).
So, according to an official FIFA document, the USA is ranked 3rd and I just showed you it had nothing to do with the teams alphabetical order. The USA and Yugoslavia were semifinalists, both teams lost, the USA had a better goal differential so FIFA has now ranked them as 3rd. Simple. In light of all this, please put back the chart you (I assume) deleted. Oh, and don't let your anti-Americanism get in the way. -Steve from Maryland
Steve. There was no such thing as "goal differential" in the 1930 World Cup, the schema of that age was goal average, even that wasn't used in the World Cup finals until 1962, and even then it was only used after two teams has already played a play-off and drawn; it was the last resort before drawing lots. It is patently ridiculous to retrospectively rank teams using a criteria that the players of that day wouldn't have considered of any value. We might aswell rank teams by who scored the quickest goal or the number of corners they got or the number of bookings or the number of shots that hit the woodwork. If we rant to retrospective re-analyse and rank that competition and those up to 1978, why don't we award 3 points for a win instead of two and re-rank the teams accordingly? How many goals would have been scored if the value of "goal differential" would have been made known to the players? There is no evidence whatsover that "goal differential" was used to determine who is positioned 3rd and 4th in that table, only your assumption; and in any case what does it mean that they are placed third? Does that 3rd position in THAT table actually have any value? Does it have any more value than the 1934 positions of Argentina, France and the Netherlands? Is Argentina 2 better than Netherlands, simply because Argentina comes first in the alphabet? How did they come up with the 1950 results? In 1950 Bolivia and Uruguay were in a group of two teams, they played each other just the once, and Bolivia lost and Uruguay went on to win the tournament. Mexico was in a group of four, and played three games and lost all of them. So why do they place Mexico above Bolivia? It seems a bit unfair to me. Is Mexico somehow a better team because they're rank on that page, is one higher? Clearly that table has boxes labelled 1-32 and on no occasion does it give two teams equal ranking, even when their results are exactly the same as in the 1934. There are no shared boxes, so someone had to go 3rd and someone else had to go 4th, but I see no evidence to suggest that they are in that order for any reason other than USA precedes Yugoslavia in the alphabet. No honours were given out for 1930 and that is the way it is, the FIFA awards page] has nothing for 3rd and 4th in 1930 and the USA page credits them as a semi-finalist in 1930 not 3rd place (contrast this with Polands page). The 3rd place ranking in that table does not mean they were awarded 3rd place. That table is of no value. Jooler 01:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
P.s. Why is is whenever I comment negatively about something someone from the USA has said that I get accused of anti-Americanism, but I never get accused of anti-Britishism when I slag off Tony Blair or of anti-Frenchism when I slag off French motorway toilets? 02:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Jooler. You do make some good points. However, I still think the USA was placed in the 3rd place slot for reasons other than the alphabet, like I argued. Then again, I suppose unless I can find somethingelse from FIFA besides that table, nothing will settle this debate. So, it seems to me that a table of just champions, which is currently on the page, is a great compromise. After all, #1 is what really matters. As far as the anti-American remark I made, that was in response to the "American" assumption you made about me - which was patently false - and your profile. To be honest, I was interested in putting up a 3rd place column well before I had "learned" that the USA had been "ranked 3rd by FIFA", so to speak (though it did make me happy :). In light of all this, then, it might be in everyone's interest that the 3rd place ranking given to the USA elsewhere in the Wiki World Cup articles be changed. -Steve from Maryland

Third Place 1934 "Nazi Germany": It's common in the media to precede the name of a country with the name of its leader or his/her ideology.
In factual sporting results, however, normal practice is to use the country's official name, or a neutral short-form. In this case it's sufficient to note "(1970 as West Germany)" under "Third place".
It's great that Wikipedia makes important information accessible to lots of people, but let's try and keep the right information in the right place.
Also, Poland should link to the team, not the country.   Abut 17:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

1934

In the 1934 Section of the table, it shows the country Germany using the flag with the swastika in the middle, but wasnt the official flag the black, white, and red bars until some time in 1935? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.236.162.160 (talk • contribs) 13:53, June 16, 2006 (UTC).

The Empire Flag you are talking about was not banned in Nazi Germany until 1935, but the Nazi flag was increasingly the flag of choice since its introduction in 1933. As for that particular World cup, I found a description of the Nazi flag being flown at the '34 World Cup here. I can't find any evidence of the Empire flag ever being flown at the '34 tournament. Uris 21:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This was discussed here ages ago it's in the archive somewhere. In 1933 the Nazi flag was adopted as a co-national flag and flew alongside the State flag [6]. The link you provided specifically says that the team arrived with Nazi flags for the award ceremony, suggesting this this was unusual or unexpected. I notice that FIFA avoids the use of flags for 1934 and 1938 unlike every other WC on that site.Jooler 10:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
However, in 1934 FIFA did use the German Empire flag (German Empire) on the official poster. So it seems that as far as FIFA was concerned in 1934, the German team was playing under the German Empire flag, and that flag should be used here. --Wine Guy Talk 19:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Well spotted! - That concludes the argument for me Jooler 19:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Flag icons

I noticed some inconsistencies in the flag icons in the article and wanted to run them by everyone before changing anything (due to the FA and likely high traffic right now). I understand for the Franco Spain, Hungary 1940, and Kingdom of Yugoslavia we don't have SVG versions, but the Flag of England is sometimes implemented as the bordered PNG and sometimes as the SVG (I think the non-border SVG is better personally). Also, keeping with history, the 1930 US flag should be a 48-star version, and I'm not sure why the SVG for the current 50-star US flag isn't being used. Any reason not to make these changes? Craig R. Nielsen 07:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Also the flag icon for Italy in 1934 and 1938 appears as nothing at all. Can we get a bordered PNG version of that? Jess Cully 21:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The flag icon for Germany in the year 1934 is wrong. The nazi-flag with the swastika was used officially since 1935. The correct flag icon would be the flag of the German Empire: black-white-red.

  • Please see "1934" section just above. Conscious 09:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Bear in mind that I'm saying that the Nazi flag should not be used for 1934 but should for 1938. I think it's probably fair to say that this issue will have undoubtedly have been discussed on German Wikipedia, where they do not use the Nazi flag for 1934 but do on 1938 Jooler 10:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

"drawing of lots" needs an explanation

In section 3.2 ("final tournament"), it would be nice to explain how the "drawing of lots" in the case of a tie is performed. I realize it is the same term as used in the official regulations (Ref.14), but for a novice reader this does not mean much (and is even confusing -- e.g., does it refer to a new "coin toss" performed when the need arises, or does it refer to the drawing of teams into groups that was done before the final stage of the Cup?)

Is it better now? Conscious 09:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

1950 "final" and "third place match" scores

Dear editors and readers, please share your opinion on whether it is appropriate to put scores of Uruguay-Brazil and Sweden-Spain matches in the results table. I think that it is, because the matches have decided 1st and 3rd place, and the footnote gives a very clear description of the status of these matches. I'm asking because one user repeatedly removes the scores, and I want to know what others think. Conscious 09:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see that it might be misleading to put these games in a table showing finals and 3rd/4th place play-offs. It is only good luck that things worked out this way so that you don't have to redo the table layout. Just out of interest, if this hadn't been the case, how would you present the information within the table? Similar to how the USA/Yugoslavia 3rd/4th place non-existent play-off is dealt with? Also, it needs to be clearer that, unlike a true final, a draw would have been enough for Brazil to win the title. Carcharoth 18:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, a draw would have been enough for Brazil and that is why the Maracanazo was not a final. The 1950 World Cup had no final or third-place play-off, because the tournament wasn't organised that way. These two matches just happened to decide who came first and third, but that was pure chance. The table should reflect the tournament's official structure - there was no final and no third place play-off. Jess Cully 08:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Often known as the Football World Championships?

"The FIFA World Cup (often called the Football World Cup, the Football World Championships or, more usually, just the World Cup) is the most significant competition in international football and in world sport."

I Googled for the terms listed in this opening sentence (and one other – bracketed), and extrapolated the first couple of pages of search results. The outcome was as follows.

FIFA World Cup: 52.7 million
Football World Cup: 3.4 million
(Soccer World Cup: 5.6 million)
Football World Championships: 14 thousand – of which most were nothing to do with the World Cup
World Cup: 520 million – of which more related to the FIFA World Cup than to all other sports combined

I think it is clear that the World Cup is not often known as the Football World Championships. I suspect that the myth derives from the fact that the name of the World Cup in other languages does often translate literally as 'World Championship'. But this is the English Wikipedia.

Yes, this is english Wikipedia but the article is about *World Cup*, not about language. Sure the wording was bad but IMO this article should make a reference to the fact that around the world the competition is often called or even known as the Football World Championships - In languages other than English, like in Swedish, German, Danish, Spanish, Italian, Portugese etc... Hardly football nobodies (3 out of 4 quarterfinalists) - G3, 06:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It is also apparent that it's the same people who don't call football football who also don't just call the World Cup the World Cup. Nonetheless, if we list football World Cup, we should really list soccer World Cup too. When, for reasons of ignorance or otherwise, it is felt necessary to specify the sport, more people seem to use the word 'soccer' than 'football'.

Also, if the World Cup really is "the most significant competition... in world sport", why mention that it's "the most significant competition in international football" too? Personally, I think it's POV to state that the World Cup is more significant than the Olympics. Grant 12:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Google is not the world. When Queen Elizabeth II opened the 1966 World Cup she said "I now declare the 1966 World Football Championship's Championships open", as seen on Goal! World Cup 1966 Jooler 13:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Google may not be the world, but I think that several hundred million Google results are probably more representative of current worldwide usage than one mention by the Queen on a formal occasion forty years ago. And forty thousand to one is a pretty impressive ratio. Are you sure about that apostrophe? Surely Her Majesty would have said "is open" if that's what she'd meant. Grant 13:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
No that was my typo. Jooler 22:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The usage of "championship" is prevalent in some countries (not English-speaking). Conscious 07:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I would use "championship" (because it is to determine a champion) or "competition" to refer to the World Cup, but not "tournament" - I'd reserve that for sections of the competition. It is a cyclic competition, over a four year period, consisting of several qualifying tournaments and play-offs, plus a finals tournament. Carcharoth 00:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Difference between finals and qualification

What are the terms used to refer to the finals and the qualification process? Is it correct to say that when people say they are going to/competing in "the World Cup", they usually mean the finals tournament? And if so, when you describe, say, the 2006 FIFA World Cup should you describe the whole process from the initial entries and draws for the qualification tournaments to the end of the finals tournament? In other words, when someone asks "what is this FIFA World Cup competition", do you tell them it is the finals tournament or do you say it is a cyclic championship that starts with qualification tournaments and culminates in a finals tournament? And do people use the term "FIFA World Cup" to refer to both things? This is all to do with phrasing things correctly in the introduction I've been writing at 2006 FIFA World Cup. Advice and assistance would be appreciated. Carcharoth 18:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I won't speak for all people, but I can use the term for both meanings depending on the current stage of the touranment. When the context is not clear I would use "qualification"/"finals". Conscious 07:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. From the Regulations 2006 FIFA World Cup Germany™:
PREAMBLE
1. The FIFA World Cup™ is a FIFA event embodied in the FIFA Statutes.
2. It is played as a preliminary competition and a final competition.
That said, if you talk about qualifying for the World Cup, clearly it is qualification for the final competition that is meant. And I think that is the sense in which the term is understood by most people most of the time. A World Cup match might be distinguished from a World Cup qualifier. On the other hand, playing at the World Cup might have a different meaning from playing in the World Cup. Obviously, there is some overlap in meaning – the winners of the World Cup have won it in both senses (and that of the trophy itself). Grant 12:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
That's great. Thanks to you both. In terms of article structure and categories, should the "World Cup" articles and categories separate out the qualification and finals, or should there be one article covering both, even if only in summary style? ie. What is done at the moment, and should "qualification" and "finals" both be daughter articles of a single article covering that cycle, or should the "qualification" and "finals" article be sister articles appearing in the same list (like chapter headings)?
For example:
or:
I think the latter is the current structure, but maybe the former structure would make more sense? In either case, it would make sense for the "finals" article to have something summarising the qualification, kind of "summary of the preceding chapter" kind of thing, giving the historical context, and also for the qualification articles to end with a paragraph summarising what happened at the finals and who won. That way both articles would be self-contained over the whole event. Carcharoth 00:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I would retain the current set up. The finals are rarely referred to as such, unless just saying World Cup will definately be ambiguous between the two. I would also argue that the qualifiers are rarely referred to as the World Cup. --Robdurbar 19:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism today 28 June 2006

Many of the edits today have been either vandalism or insufficient removals of vandalism. As a result, much residual vandalism remains. Could someone that has the time sort it out? Thanks. --A bit iffy 12:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This looks quite decent: [7]. Conscious 12:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Hungary flag

It's probably not a big deal, but why are we using Hungarian flag adopted in 1940 for the 1938 tournament? According to [8], they used a flag similar to current at the time. Conscious 15:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Germany flag

Someone still puts the Nazi flag on for the earlier German flag. It needs to be fixed. The user that keeps doing that should be banned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.118.19.94 (talk • contribs) .

See discussion above. It seems this is the correct flag to use. --Guinnog 08:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
If you read the discussion above you will see that the Nazi should be used for 1938 but not for 1934. Jooler 08:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
In that case it seems I was wrong and I apologise. --Guinnog 11:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

A bit more clarification above. --Wine Guy Talk 19:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"West" Germany and "South" Korea

At certain points throughout the article there are references to the above. Can I just point out that there has never been any countries called "West" Germany and "South" Korea and I don't just mean in the English language versions of the names. I think you will find that the official names (in English) are Federal Republic of Germany and Republic of Korea respectively. "West/East" and "South/North" were lazy Cold War terms used to differentiate between the politically partitioned states but I believe the fact the communist states were/are called German Democratic Republic (the now defunct DDR) and Democratic People's Republic of Korea does that anyway! I see no reason therefore why you shouldn't just use the name "Germany" (can't use FR Germany as it didn't exist prior to 1949) throughout the article and in Korea's case the following: "Korea Republic" (for South Korea as used by FIFA itself) and DPR Korea (for North Korea). Currently we differentiate the two Congo's not by calling them "east" and "west" but by "Congo" and "DR Congo" (Democratic Republic of).

Good point; technically, South Korea is Korea Republic national football team according to FIFA. Never the less, the West German football team is always called "West Germany" or "Germany", regardless of the exact name of the state. smurrayinchester(User), (Talk) 14:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Germany is represented since 1908 by the Germany national football team of the DFB. Only due to the existence of two (at least!, or four in total) other German states after 1949, the colloquial term "West Germany" was used until 1990 to tell them apart. Basically, only the size of the (West) German state (Federal Republic of Germany) has grown, as former East German states joined in 1990. This has not affected the fact that the pre-1990 and post-1990 German team remained the same, being fielded by the same association, the DFB. It is misleading to distinguish between "West Germany" and "Germany", as both describe the Federal Republic of Germany. --Matthead 02:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

And that's why I love Wikipedia....

How long after that winning penalty kick was the page updated? What, 5, 10 seconds? :) 70.178.172.207 20:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, I suspect this edit was original research rather than from a verifiable source - but with something like one billion people watching I suppose there's a pretty good argument that this was common knowledge :). -- Rick Block (talk) 21:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

?

"The championship has been awarded every five thousand years since the first tournament in 600 A.D., except in 1942 and..." every 5,000 years, since 600 A.D.?

Just some vandalism. Conscious 21:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Stadia in the summary table

When the article is unprotected, please remove the stadia information from the summary table. It doesn't add much, can be easily accessed through the individual tournament articles, and just clutters the table. Conscious 21:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, it was semi-protection. Conscious 21:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Penalty kick shootouts in World Cup finals tournaments

Is there a list anywhere on Wikipedia of all the penalty kick shootouts in the history of the World Cup finals tournaments (participants and who won, with links back to the relevant World Cups)? If not, would it be OK to create it, and where? I was just wondering because I know Italy have had a ridiculous number of penalty shootouts. Most of the time they lose, but I was pleased to see them win this time. Which is why I'd be interested in a list of the penalty shootouts in the previous World Cup finals tournaments. Carcharoth 23:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind. I found this and that took me here, so I'm happy now! Carcharoth 15:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


Funny

Someone put in the best finishes table that the USA won in 2010.

It's called vandalism..--Andeh 04:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there no punishment for fouls done by tongue?

It is clear that nobody will be there to argue for Zidane, because, of course, that head butt was a foolish and dangerous activity. And every body who saw the incident would say he deserves such a send off. But what made him to turn into such a furious activity in the last moment.

He forgot the world cup final, his last match, the referees and tens of thousands of spectators.

So what Materazzi said would be a serious abuse. Only two people do know that the said one and the heard one. Here is another insufficiency of football law has been revealed. There is no punishment for fouls done by tongue. That must be dangerous, perhaps will create more political, more than a sports controversy. There already arose some rumors about what Materazzi abused Zidane. Some reached such extend that he said a world such as son of a terrorist.

There must be a reconstruction in football laws, referees must depends upon TV replays, and there must be arrangements to ban abuse word used in the ground. Everybody knows that Italian players are well learned to use abuse words in the ground to make fury to their counterparts. Actually what happened is Zidane fell into the web made by a spider named Materazzi.

Zinadine Zidane would be the most perfect football player born in this earth ever. But he kicked the pot in the last steps. He could overwhelm Maradona and Pele. The world would remember him as a messiah of the football. But zissou, why did he do that in the last moments of the game? Of course, that was the last international game of his life. It is clear; Matteraassi had showered abuse on him. But he could be more patient, because, he is a very experienced player. But a moments misdeed spoiled everything; Some times French team could have lifted the world cup if Zidane were with them in the last moments. And it could be a kingly farewell for him. And the world could remember him as a legend. But Zidnes head butt was dangerous, and everybody who saw it would say he deserves the red card. The football world has got another tragic hero, after Maradona, he ended his career with a ban for using drugs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.11.169 (talk • contribs)

Let's equip each player with a mic and have another referee listening to them all and sending people off for foul language :P Conscious 17:18, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Table of most successful nations statistically unsound

The ranking of the most successful World Cup nations, is in the article based on a very primitive algorithm. Basically it weighs first place as infinitely more important than second place, which is in turn weighed as infinitely more important than third place etc. This is statistically unsound. Behind the idea of a "successful World Cup nation" lies the notion of statisticall overrepresentation. Surely, a team which places second place five times, is more successful than a team which wins the World Cup once, but never again qualifies. Football matches being played by two teams, the resulting tournament is binomially structured. Thus, to quantify the "unlikeliness" of reaching a certain position n (n=1 equals gold, n=2 equals silver, etc.), we may assign the point value 1/n for each team in each tournament, and then add these values up, where the greatest sum belongs to the most statistically high-reaching team. I have done this procedure, for a couple of teams from the table based on first to forth place finishes (n=1, to n=4). The ranking thus produced is (where I have multiplied the values by 12 for clarity):

Brazil 83 Germany 75 Italy 67 etc. (I do not have time to go through the entire table, but the ranking is already apparently somewhat different).

This approach has the virtue of quantifying the success of a team more realistically, whereas in the more primitive approach, a team that won a million silver medals, would still be deemed less "successful" than a team that won but one gold medal. --217.210.227.9 13:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Such a system would be original research, and thus not suitable for Wikipedia. Oldelpaso 14:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This is the usual way of doing things. Medal tables always count the number of gold medals first and only use silver and bronze as tie breakers. Plus the only successful team at each World Cup is the winner. I'm sure Holland would trade in every final and semi-final place for just four years with the Jules Rimet. josh (talk) 17:44, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

List of logos

I have removed the list of logos as a gallery of fair use images is incompatible with the fair use policy. Oldelpaso 17:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

World Cup Teams Ranked by Most Medals article

I'm not sure whether the newly created World Cup Teams Ranked by Most Medals article (recently added to See Also links on the FIFA World Cup page) is acceptable. The methodology seems arbitrary (why apply an Olympics-style system, with top 3 rather than top 4, and 3rd given the same value as 1st?), and the text is definitely NPOV. Perhaps original research? Thoughts? Is it salvageable? -- Wantok 13:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Delete. It's a duplicate of the table here, with the 4th place data omitted, an arbitrary points system and a POV intro. I think there are tables in this head article that would better be moved to their own separate pages; but "moving" is not the same as "copying & disimproving". jnestorius(talk) 18:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Note the World Cup Teams Ranked by Most Medals article is now formally proposed for deletion. Please comment there rather than here. -- Wantok 05:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Oceania "never having a guaranteed place"

If I recall correctly, there was one tournament in which Oceania had one guaranteed berth in the final tournament - New Zealand qualified (much to the chagrin of Australians). Whilst the comment that Oceania "has never had a guaranteed position" in the World Cup final tournament is not intentionally misleading - it is inaccurate.

If you mean 1982 (the only time New Zealand qualified for the World Cup), you're incorrect. Oceanian teams played in the Asian zone (for the last time), so no berths are guaranteed for Oceania. Check 1982 FIFA World Cup qualification (AFC and OFC), or Oceania Football Confederation#World Cup Qualifiers for the complete info. Chanheigeorge 19:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


Medals

Obviously, the gold, silver, and bronze medals. Unlike the Olympics, coaches recieve medals as well. (At Euro 2000, the runner-up team recieved a plaque along with their silver medals.) But at Korea Japan 2002, there were also medals for fourth place Korea, although I'm not sure if this was in the other FIFA World Cup tournaments. Could anyone elaborate on this? GoldDragon 02:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

There is the chance that maybe they gave those medals since Korea was the host, maybe they were some special prize. El Chompiras 00:37, 06 October 2006 (UTC)


America as 2 separated continents?

"Of the ten World Cups staged in Europe, only one saw victory by a non-European team, that being Brazil in 1958. When held outside Europe, the competition has only been won by South American teams. Only two teams from outside these two continents have ever reached the semi-finals of the competition: the USA (in 1930) and South Korea (in 2002)." Does this mean that you are placing North and South America as 2 different continents? But both region make a single continent named America. El Chompiras 00:37, 06 October 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't prevent you from making the disticntion. You could say Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay, since those are the three South American teams to win. It's just a way to be more specific than saying just The Americas. Mariano(t/c) 08:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

About the lead

While the article is great, the lead could use some fixes. In particular, the third paragraph (and the largest one) is just Trivia and statistics, is not suitable for the WP:LEAD and does not represent a summmary of a part of the article. Could someone change and fix this? Thank you. CG 13:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I've changed it a little bit, see if it's better. Chanheigeorge 20:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Much better now. Thank you a lot. CG 19:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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