Talk:Family Guy/Archive 10

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Changes to the lead

Earlier today the opening sentence was changed from "Family Guy is an American adult animated sitcom" to "Family Guy is an American animated sitcom", because the editor thought "this makes it sound like it's porn".[1] If you automatically equate "adult" with "porn", that seems like a personal problem but the linked article makes it very clear that "adult" refers to "any type of animation work that is mainly targeted towards adults and sometimes also teenagers, acting as a contrast to most animated films and TV series being aimed at children." Since this seems appropriate I restored the content with the summary "I suggest you follow the link, which makes it clear that it is not".[2] Without any attempt at discussion this was reverted with a direction to WP:EGG.[3] However, WP:EGG doesn't apply unless you are one of the people who equate "adult" with "porn", which I doubt represents the majority. The program is very clearly adult animation and an animated sitcom, the former probably being a more significant aspect since it's clearly not aimed at children, but "Family Guy is an American adult animation animated sitcom" is not good English so this is a situation where we are forced to compromise since we can't split animation/animated. If we were to consider that WP:EGG did apply and removed the link to adult animation this would make the text ambiguous for the "adult=porn" readers so that would be counter-productive. Removing the text altogether is not appropriate because the fact that this is an adult (not porn) program is significant. For these reasons, unless we can find some way to reword the text that has been in this article for more than 4 years with no problems until now, I see no reason why it should be altered. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

I removed the wording "adult" from the opening sentence as it violates WP:EGG as "adult" can be read as "porn", and it would be unexpected that the single word "adult" would link to adult animation (said article even draws attention to the ambiguity with an opening message stating: "Not to be confused with cartoon pornography"). Links are for the convenience of readers who would like more information, not to clarify poor word choices.
AussieLegend has reverted twice[4][5] now (which is editwarring—which AL asserts to have an issue with). Please explain yourself, AussieLegend. If your explanation is no more than WP:ILIKEIT, I'm afraid you'll have to undo your revert—we write for readers, not the preferences of editors, and ambiguous writing is poor writing. Please refrain from inanities such as "Your reason was that it reads like porn - that's your personal issue"—which is both a personal attack and an embarassing misunderstanding of my stated rationale. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:29, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
As demonstrated in the opening of this discussion, your initial reason for reversion was because you thought the word "adult" made the text look like it was porn. I didn't misunderstand that. That's what you wrote in your edit summary.[6] WP:EGG was only mentioned after I directed you to the link. I have already explained the link, we can't write "adult animation animated sitcom". We have to compromise here. Your claim that Links are for the convenience of readers who would like more information, not to clarify poor word choices doesn't make sense here. The program is very clearly adult animation and the words used reflect that so they're not a poor choice. They're words we need to clearly describe the program for our readers and the link that you don't like clearly identifies the context in which "adult" is used here. As for edit warring, per WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO, when an edit is good-faith reverted you don't simply revert, you start a discussion. You did not do that at all, you just reverted, leading me to have to start a discussion. Now that's out of the way, can you offer an alternative wording that still identifies the program as both adult animation and an animated sitcom? --AussieLegend (✉) 07:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
There is no responding to such a slew of non sequiturs and bizarre accusations of bad faith. I'm opening an RfC and bypassing your bull. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:12, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
RfCs are usually opened after reasonable discussion, not almost immediately discussion has opened. In fact, under the section titled "Before starting the process" it says "Before using the RfC process to get opinions from outside editors, it's often faster and more effective to thoroughly discuss the matter with any other parties on the related talk page. Editors are normally expected to make a reasonable attempt at working out their disputes before seeking help from others." Here you have made no attempt to do that. A single post, most of which was attacking me, does not constitute making a reasonable attempt. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:49, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

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Family Guy Aging

The rating is actually 14, which means that it's actually a teenagers animated sitcom. User talk:MattWorks 11:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I think this needs further discussion; could it not have different ratings by country? DonIago (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The rating simply means it's not advised for children under the age of 14. It does not mean that it's targeted at 14-year-olds. Davejohnsan (talk) 17:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
And it's also just according to a particular rating system/body. These ratings vary by country.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:09, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Remove "adult" as a descriptor from the opening sentence

There is a rough consensus that the phrase "adult animated sitcom" is undesirable due to ambiguity and should be rephrased. No specific rephrasing achieved consensus, but "animated sitcom for adults" was very close, and did not attract significant opposition. As the best option available to us, that wording should be installed as an editorial decision. The normal bold, revert discuss cycle can and should be used to refine that wording. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:57, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose removing the word "adult" as a descriptor from the opening sentence, which now reads:

Family Guy is an American adult animated sitcom created by Seth MacFarlane for the Fox Broadcasting Company.

—Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:14, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Poll

  • Support as proposer for the reasons I give below—it is ambiguous, unnecessary, and WP:UNDUE. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:14, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose "Animation" is generally presumed to be targeted for children, hence why "adult animation" is a term where it doesn't exist in other types of media. (But we do have "childrens' book", "family film", "children's television", etc. because those mediums presume the work is for adults unless otherwise denoted. As long as the "adult animation" term is linked as one to that article, readers aren't going to mistake it for adult=pornographic as suggested. --MASEM (t) 13:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
    Masem: your last statement would seem to justify any WP:EGG. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
    Hrm. Our article on animated sitcom is terrible and barely justifies it as a notable genre - but turning to google, it's clearly used more frequently than "adult animation". I was going to suggest that one could link the terms as "(adult animated)/(sitcom)" rather than how it is now as "(adult)/(animated sitcom)" but in terms of genre value, "animated sitcom" appears more accurate (barring the problem with that article). And given that "animated sitcom" is considered a subset of the general "sitcom" which is generally part of non-children's television, that could be valid reason to remove the adult tag. --MASEM (t) 13:58, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
    Or just move adult animation elsewhere in the article, where it can be worked in and contextualized in a way that's not ambiguous and awkward. It's hardly NOPV that "adult" is such a defining aspect of the show that it requires drawing attention to it in the opening sentence, anyways—nothing essential is lost by cutting it. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 14:10, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
    I can understand why some have high value in including "adult animation", but I can see why it's a problem. I would suggest (supporting the RFC) that the lede can start: "Family Guy is an American animated sitcom created by Seth MacFarlane for the Fox Broadcasting Company. The adult animation series centers on the Griffins..." which keeps that high value term there but avoids the other points of concern. --MASEM (t) 14:18, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
    Ironically, the last thing I wrote before Curly Turkey shot off to open an RfC was can you offer an alternative wording that still identifies the program as both adult animation and an animated sitcom?. Had he participated in the discussion we could have had this out of the way by now without any need for an RfC. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:18, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
    AussieLegend: Ironically, despite your protestations, you refuse to offer a response to my proposed alternate wording below, or to retract your remarks about my psychological state and ulterior motives. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:58, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
    PamD hasn't responded either, but I don't see you harassing her. As for any remarks I have made, I don't see anywhere that I have made comments that are not supported by direct reference to what you have actually said. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:33, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    AussieLegend: PamD didn't demand an alternate wording; you did (also, she's on WikiBreak). The fact that you refuse to respond supports the first impression you gave me: you were never interested in discussing the issue. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:44, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    As I've written below, I asked for a suggestion before you even started this RfC and you refused to provide anything then. I am now concentrating on the specific question of the RfC.
    The fact that you refuse to respond supports the first impression you gave me: you were never interested in discussing the issue - There's an old saying: You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    I'm not interested in "catching flies"—I'm here to improve poor prose. If you are acting in good faith, show us all by responding to the proposal you demanded. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    Your response is contradictory and if you do not understand why then your opposition to the word "adult" is completely understandable and a demonstration of what I said earlier, here. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose - As explained above in the discussion that Curly Turkey barely participated in before opening this RfC, I explained why we are forced to compromise with the wording unless a better set of words can be found. The program is clearly adult animation and an animated sitcom but we can't write "adult animation animated sitcom" so we are forced to compromise slightly. The fact that this is adult animation and not traditional animation is a significant point and we should be writing for our readers. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Why not say "animated sitcom for adults", which would make more sense to readers and avoid all of that awkwardness? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:43, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Pointing out the demographic a program is aimed at is information we should provide, as long as it's properly referenced. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Beyond My Ken: given that most articles do no such thing in the lead sentence, why make an exception with Family Guy? Especially when the wording is ambiguous? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
      • WP:OTHERTHINGSEXIST. That other articles do not do so is irrelevant, since I can go right now and add it to them, if you like. The question here is about this article, and this consensus discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:08, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
        • Beyond My Ken: Okay, then please tell us why the lead sentence is the appropriate place to specify the target demographic on this article, and why doing so is so essential as to allow an ambiguous wording to stand. Nobody has suggested removing demographic information from the article, so your oppose rationale doesn't address the issue. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:26, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
          • It addresses the quesion posed by the RfC quite directly. Incidentally, the formulation "...for adults" works fine for me too. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:31, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose: It is an appropriate descriptor for the program and helps define the intended audience, though if the concern is the porn euphemism issue, then rephrasing how the word is used, as in "directed at an adult demographic" or something similar to the ideas suggested by WhatamIdoing in the discussion below, might be a reasonable idea. WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments really are beside the point, nothing prevents the same descriptor being added to other articles. Montanabw(talk) 16:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - I'm not sure the statement that "animation is generally presumed to be targeted for children" is still true. If someone can provide a good citation for that, maybe I'll change my opinion. Kaldari (talk) 18:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
    • There's one in the article, right after "adult", although it says more that cartoons are traditionally for children acknowledging that this has changed in recent years.[7] If you look back through all of the cartoons that have been produced throughout history you'll see that this is true. When I was a child in the 1960s there were no cartoons not meant for children. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
      • The article you link to seems to undermine your point with its opening line: " I think, honestly, we're all well beyond the point where I need to open up this feature with a 'Hey, did you know that cartoons aren't just for kids?" paragraph.' But that's not the point—the purpose of the RfC is to remove an ambiguity. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:55, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
        • The article is saying that animation isn't just for kids any more but that doesn't mean that animation wasn't traditionally for kids or that it isn't generally for kids even now. History proves that it was traditionally for kids and a simple comparison between the amount of children's animation and adult (not porn) animation shows produced show it still is generally aimed at kids. As for your perception of ambiguity, again, most mature people don't immediately equate adult with porn so there isn't really an ambiguity. --AussieLegend (✉) 23:29, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
          • That might depend on where you're from. For example, in the U.S., "adult bookstore" is pretty much universally understood to mean pornography store. Kaldari (talk) 20:28, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
            • I'm sure that "adult bookstore" means the same anywhere but that's a matter of context, not location. I doubt that most people would immediately associate "adult prices" with pornography. The issue that the nominator has is with the single word "adult", despite being linked. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:28, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. "Adult animation" is easily assumed to be "pornographic animation". The current wording is unclear. I think we should all be able to get behind an alternative phrasing such as "Family Guy is an American animated sitcom created by Seth MacFarlane for the Fox Broadcasting Company. The program is targeted at an adult audience." I would support such wording. ~ Rob13Talk 23:52, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
    • "Adult animation" is not written in the article. The word "adult" is linked to adult animation. In order to assume that "adult animation" is "pornographic animation" you need to follow the link and then completely misunderstand the fairly clear explanation in the linked article. Alternatively you have to not even bother to follow the links and assume that "adult[2] animated sitcom" is a pornographic sitcom for adults and, really, how many of those exist? It's a completely unrealistic and illogical assumption and ignores the "[2]" after "adult" in the middle of the text. Anyone reading that would surely follow the reference to find out what it all means. If they ignore two links and a reference, there's not much more we can do to make it absolutely clear that it's not porn. Some people just can't be helped. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:28, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
      • AussieLegend: You're then saying that the reader must click through the link before finishing reading the first sentence of the article. I address this in my rationale in the "Discussion" section—that is extraordinarily poor writing. Could you please visit the "Discussion" section and respond to my alternate wording proposal that you demanded? It's been three days now. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:34, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
        • Please don't misrepresent what I say because I said nothing of the sort. The links are provided for convenience. A reader who is unable to comprehend what is written has the option of clicking any or all of the 3 links to have their question(s) answered while an editor who is able to understand will not need to do so although they may wish to do that if they would like more information. As for your alternate wording, I asked for that before you even started this RfC and you refused to provide anything then. I am now concentrating on the specific question of the RfC. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:49, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
          • So like I said—you're not and never have been open discussing it. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:56, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
            • I'm sorry but I see that as a completely irrational response given the fact that I opened the initial discussion on this talk page,[8] and very clearly asked you for an alternate wording.[9] Clearly, based on the evidence, I was more than willing to continue discussion. That you refused to provide an alternate wording, instead rushing straight off to RfC,[10] and are now accusing me of doing exactly what you did, not to mention the personal attacks (which you've also accused me of making) gives me very little incentive to reply to any more of your, to be quite blunt, puerile responses. I'd suggest you follow the earlier advice given not to WP:BLUDGEON the process and take heed of the advice yet another editor gave you on your talk page.[11] Have a nice day. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Weak support, with the condition of including a change like BU Rob13 or WhatamIdoing had suggested. Cartoons/animation still have a stigma in the West as being aimed at and primarily produced for children. Although obviously shows like Family Guy, The Simpsons, and others are fairly well-known for being aimed at more mature audiences, Wikipedia isn't meant to be assuming of its readers and their prior knowledge. Although I can see how "adult animation" can lead to the wrong idea, it better conveys something more than just "animation" or "cartoon". To be fairly honest, I think this is a small potatoes thing, but if we really wanna go ahead with making this change, add some text about how it is targeted at the adult demographic, as per the suggestions I referenced. JaykeBird (talk) 07:38, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'm with BYK above. We should point out the demographic target of an artistic piece when it is in the sources. --Adam in MO Talk 09:08, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Support The loss of precision here is secondary to the common misunderstanding. The goal of any content is to be accurate as well as easily comprehensible. --QEDK (愛 • 海) 17:52, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose: First of all, "adult animated sitcom" is used elsewhere on the wiki, so the argument that other shows don't use it is unfounded. Secondly, a quick google search of the phrase will show you its pervasiveness in society/culture. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 12:19, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Nihlus Kryik: As is its use to mean "porn": (711000 hits for "adult animation" vs 393000 for "adult animation" porn—meaning 55% of all hits for "adult animation" are for porn, not including sites that don't mention the word "porn".
      "the argument that other shows don't use it is unfounded": the argument was not that other "adult animated sitcoms" don't use the term "adult", but that other kinds of shows do not (such as fantasy shows). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
      • @Curly Turkey: Unfortunately, Google doesn't do well with comparing index numbers, as they are unreliable. Look here for a more accurate depiction of different variations. Anything with adult and porn in the search register zero interest level. The related queries also fail to show your assumed relation between the two words. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
        • "adult cartoon porn" doesn't get zero—in fact, it gets more interest than "adult animation". "Cartoon" is by far the preferred search term over "animation", even though we prefer "animation" on Wikipedia. On this page, though, we are concerned with what the reader is reading, rather than what they are searching for, and asserting that "adult animated" will not be read by anyone as "pornographic animated" is beyond silly. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
          • Yes, if you change the words enough, you will find something that fits your narrative (however, "adult cartoon" has much more interest than "adult cartoon porn", thereby disproving your point again). However, we are talking about the word animation and not the word cartoon. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 23:17, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
            • ""adult cartoon" has much more interest] than "adult cartoon porn", thereby disproving your point again"—this is your most absurd argument yet—every instance of "adult cartoon" contains every instance of "adult cartoon porn"—if the former were smaller, it'd indicate a bug in Google's software. But let's get you on the record: are you asserting that readers will not read "adult animation" as "pornographic animation", and therefore there is no ambiguity? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:07, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
              • That's not how Google Trends works. It looks at those exact phrases and how they are searched. It does not include "variations" of the words in the phrase when determining the analytics. So, no, my argument is not absurd. I would recommend you stop attacking everyone who comments on this RfC just because they disagree with you. Please read WP:BLUDGEON before continuing. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 01:22, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
                • Could you answer the direct question instead of dodging with WP:BLUDGEON? Given that the RfC is about an ambiguous wording, and your own result clearly show the wording is ambiguous. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Could you read what I asked you to since your behavior has been disruptive to the process (WP:IDHT)? My results do not show the wording is ambiguous, it actually shows the opposite. The words are not ambiguous in this context at all, and even if it were ambiguous, it is linked in order to provide context is someone needs it. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 02:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Sorry, I misspoke. I don't know why I wrote "your own result". Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:39, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose in the specifics per AussieLegend, et al, but suggest alternative because the issue is real: is an American animated sitcom, intended for adults[1] (or just "for adults"). Or move the adult thing to a new sentence. It is not necessary to use the exact phrase "adult animation" when doing so is redundant ("animated sitcom" already tells the reader it's animation). MoS rule #1: Rewrite to avoid dispute or confusion.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  20:44, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong support per nom and Rob. I would support Pam's change proposed below, but at current the phrasing is heavily ambiguous. Keira1996 04:08, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Support There is no need to classify cartoon comedy series as "adult" or not. Spongebob Squarepants is also a cartoon which adults enjoy and yet it was targeted for children and the audience grew. Same with Buggs Bunny. So many others. No need for "adult" Damotclese (talk) 15:27, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
The difference here is this series is specifically targeted at adult audiences, while the others that you mentioned are targeted at children, which is where animation is traditionally targeted. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:27, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. "Adult" implies this is something not of interest to children, or intended to be kept from children (such as the cartoon porn example mentioned above). Family Guy targets a wide audience. Presence of "adult" jokes do not by themselves make the show inaccessible to children. This labeling reminds me of older discussions proposing FG be given the labels like "black comedy". The problem is it defines FG by one of its elements, rather than summarizing the whole. / edg ☺ ☭ 16:37, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
The linked article specifically says that adult animation is any type of animation work that is mainly targeted towards adults and sometimes also teenagers. It does not imply that children won't be interested. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Why this argument is problematic has already been discussed below. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:39, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Support changing to ""animated sitcom for adults" or equivalent. This is less ambiguous, more informative, and more encyclopedic. I do not understand the arguments that want "adult animation"; even if it's not misinterpreted, it still sounds objective or even pejorative, all with no benefit to the readers or WP. We should at least attempt to have WP appear better than this. --A D Monroe III (talk) 16:37, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

Using "adult" in this context is poor writing because it is:
  • ambiguous—as every adult knows, "adult" is a common euphemism for "pornographic", as in "adult book" and "adult film" (the latter of which redirects to Pornographic film). The Adult animation article reinforces this perception by opening with the message: "Not to be confused with cartoon pornography." Avoiding ambiguity is a goal of formal writing—especially encyclopaedic writing.
  • unnecessary—we don't refer to Ulysses as an "adult novel", The Human Centipede as an "adult horror film", or Game of Thrones as an "adult fantasy drama television series", nor other animated works such as Ghost in the Shell.
  • surprising—such strangely conspicuous use of the word draws undue attention to it, a mere half-dozen words into the article, giving readers pause to wonder why the word is being used at all.
  • in violation of WP:EGG—the word "adult" unexpectedly links to Adult animation. Worse, this makes the assumption that the reader will have to read the linked-to article to understand the context the word was presented in—this is not what links are for. Links are for curious readers to find more to read, not to figure out what context a word is being used in. The way the word is shoehorned into the lead suggests the editor is more interested in the proliferation of links than in the clarity of the writing or the appropriateness of the terms linked.
Let's write for the benefit of the reader, and not to satisfy our hobbyhorses. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:14, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
@Curly Turkey: You don't have to make a proposal just to remove a single word from a sentence in an article. Be bold, and make the edit yourself. PhilrocMy contribs 14:09, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Philroc: I did—see the discussion immediately above, where I'm accused of bizarre ulterior motives for having removed this single word. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 14:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
I'd address Curly Turkey's claims here but I already did, in the opening of the discussion above, before he had even participated. Curley Turkey's main point seems to be that he believes adult=porn. This was his original reason for deleting the content. That was even his reason for chasing me on my talk page. Even though nobody else has ever indicated a problem with use of "adult" in the four years in which the text has been in the article, it seems prudent to link "adult" to adult animation to make sure that even one person isn't misguided. I would have been happy to continue discussion of this above but he chose not to. --16:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Well, adult does mean "porn" – in some contexts. Curly's correct that this is ambiguous, and a person who knows nothing about the show would have no idea if that means "sexual animated sitcom" or "animated sitcom for an older audience". So how about making it clear? We could write something like, "Family Guy is an American animated sitcom created by Seth MacFarlane for the Fox Broadcasting Company. The main audience is adults" or "Family Guy is an American animated sitcom for adults. It was created by Seth MacFarlane for the Fox Broadcasting Company" and remove any possible confusion.
While we're at it, someone could also re-write the line "immediately generated controversy regarding its adult content" to be clearer. I have no idea whether the controversy is about sex or about swearing or about actual adult life, which seems to involve a lot more things like paying the bills and washing the laundry than things that get labeled with the euphemism "adult". I think we can do better than this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:41, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Maybe it's me. I don't see "adult" and immediately think "bow chicka bow wow". I followed the link to see in what context the word was used. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Family Guy is an American animated sitcom for adults, as suggested by WhatamIdoing, is unambiguous and an improvement over "adult animated sitcom" which to many readers will suggest porn or thereabouts. PamD 17:04, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
"Curley Turkey's main point seems to be that he believes adult=porn"—my only point has been that the wording is ambiguous, and thus poor writing. I've been awfully explicit about that, but you appear to be as poor a reader as you are a writer. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
That's a blatant personal attack and you should know better. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:05, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
AussieLegend: I've retracted it. I hope you'll retract yours, and acknowledge the point. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:22, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Curly Turkey's being awfully explicit; does he need an X rating? LOL. CT's point seems pretty clear to me, and it's weird that anyone would assume that pointing out the ambiguity equates to identifying with one side of the ambiguity. This article's lead really does need to be rewritten on this point, and one doesn't have to share the "adult = porn" perception to realize that some people do have that perception, and that we thus need to write around it.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:01, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
  • I'd argue that if some people see "adult animated sitcom" as meaning porn, the same people are probably going to have the same problem with that wording, which doesn't lend itself to linking to adult animation at all. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:20, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't think it has the same risk of confusion. But if you want to eliminate all risk that this will be confused with the euphemism, then why not get some sources and write a detailed description of the audience? Then you could describe it as an "animated sitcom mostly watched by young white men aged 20 to 35", or whatever the main demographic is. This news article says that the median age of viewers was 28 years, and this newer one says age 31. This one includes some information on teen viewers. This one says it's particularly popular with younger men, which draws advertising dollars. I'm sure that a good search would turn up better ones. But the bottom line is that if you don't want to include the word 'adult' at all, then it could be eliminated and still communicate that this is not a children's show. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • We don't have to worry about "risking confusion" if we drop the non-essential word "adult" from the lead sentence. Adult animation can be linked elsewhere in a non-awkward, non-ambiguous context, as I suggested to Masem above—assuming there's any pressing reason to mention it at all. I mean, most people assume fantasy's for children, but we don't go out of our way to call Game of Thrones "adult fantasy", do we? How is Family Guy such a special case that we have to highlight it only six words into the article? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:45, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • @AussieLegend, WhatamIdoing, and PamD: How about if we were to add a line like "the show's target audience is teens and adults" somewhere in the lead? Of course, it would also have to be added to the body, as the lead is meant to summarize the body—it's surprising there's no info on the show's demographics in the article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:52, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Works for me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
    • I've made my position on the RfC question quite clear. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
      • AussieLegend: that doesn't answer the question. What objection do you have to the proposed rewording? It appears to solve every issue you have with the removal. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
        • You have my answer. I'm sorry that you don't like it but it is what it is what it is and please stop pinging me EVERY time you reply. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
          • You're demonstrating exactly why this RfC was needed. Why demand a discussion you refuse to participate in? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:43, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Agree on adding "targeting teens and adults" or equivalent. Agree on including this in the main while adding it to lede. But, as it's been mentioned a couple times in long discussion, we need a source to state any such judgement about the subject. If we can't find a source for this, we shouldn't say anything about what amounts to just different editors' opinions about the target audience. --A D Monroe III (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
      • Non-issue; that takes about 5 seconds to find [12]. I'd suggest the News & Observer article as the quick-pick source. Or use a different one if you want "teen" included, but I think that's desperation. See much earlier thread on the OR mistake of equating a rating system's labeling of it for mid-teens as a minimum age, with the producer-intended audience.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Has the term 'adult-oriented' been considered, (viz. Adult-oriented pop music)? Cpaaoi (talk) 00:08, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
    • No, but it's worth considering. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
      • Lots of things are worth considering, but some people aren't willing to talk. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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