Talk:Fantasma (Cornelius album)

Microdisney

@153.205.69.164: You know very well that the track was named in honor of Sean's band, and that mentioning it genuinely informs the context of the album. What is with these pedantic reverts?--Ilovetopaint (talk) 01:22, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: Could you provide the source that states "'Micro Disneycal World Tour' was named in honor of Microdisney"? 153.205.69.164 (talk) 01:49, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@153.205.69.164: This has already been satisfied by two references which observe the fact that a guy who was in a band called "Microdisney" remixed the album track called "Micro Disneycal World Tour". Even if the song wasn't actually named after the band (yeah right), the fact that a member of that band happened to remix that track would still be of encyclopedic interest. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:08, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: To quote WP:SYNTH, in the Wikipedia, we are not allowed to "combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". 153.205.69.164 (talk) 02:15, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@153.205.69.164: Are you seriously suggesting that it's WP:SYNTH to establish encyclopedic context by noting the well-known bands that an individual musician hails from? --Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:34, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: I'm serious. When we add a sentence like "'Micro Disneycal World Tour' was named in honor of Microdisney", the sentence has to be directly supported by the source. 153.205.69.164 (talk) 02:43, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@153.205.69.164: That wasn't what you removed.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:46, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: The sources do not state that Sean O'Hagan is a co-founder of the High Llamas and Microdisney, which is why I quote WP:SYNTH. 153.205.69.164 (talk) 02:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done--Ilovetopaint (talk) 03:09, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done Your edit does not satisfy WP:NOR concerns. 153.205.69.164 (talk) 03:21, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ilovetopaint: Besides, I have no idea what makes you want to mention only Sean O'Hagan in the article. As credited as "The Micro Disneycal World Tour (High Llamas Remix)" on iTunes and Spotify, for FM, "The Micro Disneycal World Tour" was remixed by the High Llamas, not only Sean O'Hagan. Even the MTV source you added states that it is "the High Llamas' take on 'The Micro Disneycal World Tour'". He is not the remixer for "Micro Disneycal World Tour". Although Sean O'Hagan is a member of the High Llamas, the High Llamas is not Sean O'Hagan's one-man band. 153.205.69.164 (talk) 03:21, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

(Came from the music project). It's a bit confusing what the actual specific dispute is. If it's about the March 12 3:40 edit and 3:43 revert,at first glance, I think that the 3:40 edit should stay. 153.205.69.164, your specific arguments are about synthesis, and do not seem to address this specific edit, and I don't see any specific arguments about this specific edit. North8000 (talk) 11:31, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

First off, what I think is problematic is that some of the content Ilovetopaint added to this article were not supported by the sources. With the 14:22 edit and the 04:33 edit, he/she added "the song 'The Micro Disneycal World Tour' was named after the Irish indie pop band Microdisney"; with the 01:14 edit and the 03:08 edit, he/she added "Sean O'Hagan ... was the remixer for 'Micro Disneycal World Tour'". Both of these sentences were not supported by the source.

Ilovetopaint has repeatedly added the name of Microdisney to this article, possibly because he/she thinks that "the track was named in honor of Sean's band". Yet, there is no reliable source that directly supports his/her point of view. Combining "Sean O'Hagan is a member of Microdisney" and "Sean O'Hagan is one of the contributors to Fantasma" to imply "'The Micro Disneycal World Tour' was named after Microdisney" is a synthesis of published material. All I'm asking right now is: Please bring a reliable source that directly supports your point of view.

Moreover, I don't feel the need to add each contributors' current/previous bands to this article. Should we add Cornelius' current band METAFIVE and his previous band Flipper's Guitar? No. Should we add Robert Schneider's current bands the Apples in Stereo, Marbles, Ulysses, and Thee American Revolution? No. Should we add Hilarie Sidney's current band the High Water Marks and her previous bands the Apples in Stereo and Secret Square? No. Should we add Sean O'Hagan's current band the High Llamas and his previous bands Microdisney and Stereolab? No. That's why I reverted the 3:40 edit. 153.205.69.164 153.204.80.68 (talk) 21:09, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

We should mention facts that enhance the reader's understanding of this album and which provides historical context in an obviously useful manner. Sidney and Schneider were both members of Apples in Stereo - they appear on the album because they were in Apples in Stereo, an important band at the time. So yeah, we should mention them too. I've already explained why Microdisney is worth acknowledging. If you can think of any worthwhile connections Fantasma might have to Metafive, Flipper's Guitar, Secret Square, Marbles, et. al feel free to point them out!--Ilovetopaint (talk) 00:44, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Again, please stop stop combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.

Although I understand Ilovetopaint thinks the Apples in Stereo, the High Llamas and Microdisney were important bands at that time, I don't think these facts don't enhance "the reader's understanding of this album" nor provide "historical context". 153.205.69.164 153.229.203.4 (talk) 05:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

MOS:LINKSTYLE is why we need to mention bands that these musicians are noted for: "The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links." --Ilovetopaint (talk) 05:44, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

What MOS:LINKSTYLE requires is not that we should add each contributors' current/previous bands or something like that to the album article. If Ilovetopaint brings a relaible source that states the High Llamas and Microdisney were important for Fantasma, then he/she can add the names of these bands to this article. 153.205.69.164 153.229.203.4 (talk) 05:53, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Although I still think the names of each contributors' bands are not essential part of this article, with this edit, I restored the Apples in Stereo. It might be important for Fantasma, since it was directly supported by the source.

Ilovetopaint, if you want to add the names of the High Llamas and Microdisney to this article, all you have to do now is just provide a reliable source that states the High Llamas and Microdisney are important for Fantasma. 153.205.69.164 153.229.203.4 (talk) 06:17, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

The disputed content only mentions that O'Hagan was in a band called Microdisney. Placing this information in the article is not synthesis. Maybe you mean to cite WP:ONUS: "Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." A (slight) consensus has been reached. Maybe you should read WP:COMMON and Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. -Ilovetopaint (talk) 06:27, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Unlike in the case of the Apples in Stereo that was mentioned in the Pitchfork review of the album, no reliable source states that Microdisney nor the High Llamas were important for Fantasma. Then, why do we have to add them to this article? 153.205.69.164 153.229.203.4 (talk) 06:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I'll assume English is not your first language and just point out that there is no such thing as a "micro disney". Google the name and you will only see results for the band (along with some Lego models that didn't exist 20 years ago).--Ilovetopaint (talk) 07:01, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Sure, there is no such thing as a "micro disney", but that fact doesn't justify the inclusion of the name of Microdisney nor the High Llamas to this article. 153.205.69.164 153.229.203.4 (talk) 07:04, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

The justification is that Microdisney refers to only one thing: a band. A track on the album was named after the band. One of its members appears on the album. The same person remixed the track on a related album. These are not coincidences.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 07:22, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

That's a synthesis of published material. You haven't yet provide a source that clearly states "'The Micro Disneycal World Tour' was named after Microdisney". Unless there is a source directly supporting your point of view, we cannot say these are not coincidences. 153.205.69.164 153.229.203.4 (talk) 07:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not engaging with this incoherent "synthesis" argument anymore. I haven't added a statement that states the song was named after the band, so I don't need a source for it. The article does not suggest that the song was named after the band; it's up to the reader to decide if it was for themselves. Even if I did have a source that stated the song was named after the band, nine times out 10 it would be coming from a music journalist who made the connection not from any interview with Oyamada, but simply from being aware of Microdisney's existence (plus the fact that other tracks on the album are named after the Beach Boys, Count Five, and maybe New Musik). So what integrity are you even trying to protect? This is idiotic.

Unless you can reach an opposing consensus, I'm done on this talk page. If you still believe WP:SYNTH precludes the mere observation of the painfully obvious Microdisney–O'Hagan–"Micro Disney" connection, see WP:IGNOREALLRULES: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." --Ilovetopaint (talk) 15:51, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

"I haven't added a statement that states the song was named after the band"? What? With the 14:22 edit and the 04:33 edit, you added "the song 'The Micro Disneycal World Tour' was named after the Irish indie pop band Microdisney"; with the 01:14 edit and the 03:08 edit, you added "Sean O'Hagan ... was the remixer for 'Micro Disneycal World Tour'". These were not supported by the sources. That's why I had to revert your edits. Do you admit you were wrong about these additions of original researches and wasted our time?

Again, I must remind you that combining "Sean O'Hagan is a member of Microdisney" and "Sean O'Hagan is one of the contributors to Fantasma" to imply "'The Micro Disneycal World Tour' was named after Microdisney" is a synthesis of published material. If you don't provide a reliable source that clearly states the song was named after the band, I will remove them sooner or later.

Lastly, Ilovetopaint, you are the only editor that violated the 3RR rule at this article (1, 2, 3, 4), which leaves a bad impression. 153.205.69.164 153.160.234.106 (talk) 19:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Recent edit war

Because of 153.160.234.106's question, I have come here to evaluate the conflict.

First: I am not familiar with music, so I have no bias towards either side coming in. My goal is simply to build towards an encyclopedia which is useful for our readers.

Regarding the most recent edit, I agree with the removal of citations, but I don't agree with the justification for it. WP:BLUE is an essay (see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines), and is more addressed towards removal of common sense facts. The fact that someone is in a band is not common sense; being unfamiliar with music, I could not tell you whether that person is in that band. However, I do agree with the removal of citations because per WP:V: All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. (bold mine) Since the bands and people are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia page, one can go to the respective band or person's Wikipedia page to get sources for them being in the band. It is not necessary to cite it here. (If the band isn't documented in reliable sources, then you could not include information about it.)

As for 153.160.234.106's prior edits, I do not see the additional information around Sean O'Hagan being relevant to the article. If one does not know who Sean O'Hagan is, they can click the wikilink and find out; they do not need to know the band he's in or was in unless it's relevant to the article. Even if Microdisney's name originates from this album, it is trivia unless a reliable source covers it. E to the Pi times i (talk | contribs) 03:08, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

ADDENDUM: @Ilovetopaint: I do not see the bands as being particularly relevant to the page unless they performed as a band related to the album, or the band is more notable than the artist. But I do not have enough knowledge to make that judgement call in this article. E to the Pi times i (talk | contribs) 03:18, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

E to the Pi times i, thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I understand and won't restore the citations. 153.207.98.83 (talk) 08:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC)