Talk:Fedor Emelianenko/Archive 1

We Need to Put in more Info

If you compare this article on fedor which articles with other fighters like Andrei Arlovski, you will note that this article is a bit lacking. Especially when Fedor is considered the hands down best fighter in the sport by all mixed-martial arts media groups and even all of the mixed-martial arts fighters right now.

We should conform the article to be a little bit closer to other athletes like Michael Jordan, etc.

Tsuyoshi Kohsaka Fight

I'd like to open the discussion up to the status of the elbow in the TK fight. The video, as I'm sure we've all seen, is inconclusive but looks more like an elbow to me; I'm skeptical of such a deep gash getting opened up by such a glancing strike, save for if it was an elbow or the seam of a glove or something like that, but RINGS gloves did not have external seams. I'd like to hear agreeing/dissenting opinions here in the interests of fairness. As far as a 'citation' goes, it is impossible to prove one way or the other, however I'm not sure the outcome of an MMA fight deserves the kind of 'innocent until proven guilty' burden of proof we'd use for a trial. I'm willing to say the balance of probabilities favours elbow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.189.249.149 (talk • contribs) .

Certainly, the article should not state conclusively that the cut was caused by an elbow, unless that assertion can be backed up by a reliable source. We cannot put our educated guesses into the text, as we cannot publish original research. Since you are correct that the cause of the cut is unlikely to be proven one way or the other, in my opinion the text should just state that Fedor lost the fight due to a cut, and leave it at that. SubSeven 03:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a simple fact that the cut was caused by an elbow. Both fighters have said this on at least 100 occasions. You can see it on Pride website and Fedor's Official website on at least 4 different spots in different languages. The judges also ruled that it was caused by an elbow (which is not allowed in Rings. And it was an accident) Sherdog.com also lists this as an elbow. The reason elbow are often illigal is just because of this! They cause cuts easily withhout doing much damage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.117.82.137 (talk • contribs) .

Cite it then. SubSeven 20:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

From http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/index.php?mainpage=news&news_id=106 : "Emelianenko: It's not a good memory. I was cut by Kosaka's illegal strike (elbow)." NonTelly 18:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

BJJ, Judo

Another image of the subject.

Where did this idea about Fedor training BJJ come from? I've heard nothing of it. There is also no reference to his competive record in Judo and Combat Sambo. KingMob 23:30, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Reference to Fedor's record: http://www.judoinside.com/uk/?factfile/view/8554 KingMob 23:31, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

KingMob. Since Sambo and Judo borrowed a lot from Jujitsu we can say that when Fedor is practicing a triangle choke, for example, that he is training jj, Judo or Sambo. This is because the move is absolutely the same in all 3 systems.

Judo does borrow a great deal from Jujitsu, but not from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu because BJJ is, itself, a derivative of Judo. Also, for someone to be training in a specific system, they need to be training in a specific system...if I practice leg locks during BJJ practice, I can not claim to have trained in Sambo, as I've never so much as seen Sambo practiced in person. Fedor has not, to my knowledge, ever trained in BJJ. EmperorFedor 22:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of his name

I've recently added an IPA pronunciation of his name to this page. However I am not a native Russian speaker, and am only basing this on what I have heard when native Russians pronounce his name on video. I have never heard a native speaker pronounce the 'o' on the end of his name- it always seems to be dropped. Therefore I have not included it in the IPA pronunciation guide. However, if someone who speaks Russian has something to say about this, we would appreciate any input. Thanks. --causa sui ^talk 03:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

There is definitely an "o" in the end of his name.. Actually, now that I look at it, we might want to correct two more things: 1. "Fedor" does not have a distinct "j" sound, it's more of a "Fiodor" 2. "Emelianenko" does have a distinct "j" sound in the beginning. It's more of a "Ye-[m']e[l']-ya-[n']en-ko", where [*'] would mean the soft version of the consonant. CasualFighter 21:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the International Phonetic Alphabet, the "j" character signifies a sound that would be reproduced by "y" in English, such as is "Yoohoo". I've heard his first name pronounced as "Fyodor", which in IPA is something like "Fijodor", correct? --causa sui ^talk 15:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Right, there's no English "Y" (or IPA "j") sound in "Fedor". The first vowel does not really exist in American English - the best way to describe it is the transitional sound you make when you say "Fiona", after you are done with the "i" part of the "io" sound, but before you land on the full "o". "Fiodor" is a close approximation. On the other hand, "Emelianenko" does start with a distinct "Y" sound. CasualFighter 19:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the IPA according to Russian_language#Sounds. The only thing I'm not sure about is that the two unstressed "o":s can be pronounced both "ə" and "ʌ" depending on the situation, i guessed "ə". The "^jj" is not a mistake. --Truncated 15:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Muay Thai

If TKD is not going to be included under the arts he studies, then neither should muay thai as none of his coaches know muay thai either. If you look at any of his matches, he doesn't necessarily use the textbook clinch and knees to the body and thigh.

Good point. I don't think that two weeks of training with Hoost make Fedor a Muay Thai fighter either. However, he also added Ruslan Nagnibida (Nagnibeda, not Nagnibida), a Muay Thai coach from the Tula State University, to his team in late 2005, and Ruslan helped him train for Crocop and Zulu fights... CasualFighter 16:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

A trip to Holland did NOT include training with Hoost, Hoost was hurt. He only watched Fedor train and was very generous in his praise for Fedor's ability and talent. This is according to Fedor himself in a recent interview from his Official Website. Also, the trip had a lot more "western" style training (kickboxing) rather than a real Muay Thai.

The tone of this article

I am consistently having to revert peacocky and editorial, embellished language from this article. Please review the Wikipedia manual of style and the relevant neutrality and verifiability policies for information about how to write an article. Thanks. --causa sui ^talk 03:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice to be able to insert that he is the consensus #1 heavyweight in the world, although I don't know if a source for that can be found. hateless 21:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I did add a section "Honorary titles and appelations" that listed references to Sherdog , mmaweekly and WON calling him #1 a couple of times. However, some anon user keeps deleting the section and leaving his beloved WON reference only. *sigh* CasualFighter 19:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it necessary to include the POV that he is "the best heavyweight fighter in the world" rather than "one of the best heavyweight fighters in the world"? If neutrality means anything, it would seem to be applicable here. Austinmayor 15:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Austin, the statement "Fedor has been considered the best heavyweight fighter in the world for the last three years by virtually all major MMA publications (references)" is perfectly fine according to the Wiki policy on NPOV since it's referenced and cites reputable sources. -CasualFighter 17:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Honorary titles and appellations

Anonymous editor (210.4.77.150) keeps removing all honorary titles and appellations with the exception of an old World Observer Newsleter (WON) title. He motivates it by saying that the other titles (from Full Contact Fighter, Sherdog, MMAWeekly) are irrelevant since they are just "websites run by fans", while WON is a "counterpart of the Ring magazine".

1. Please, do not remove that section again without discussing it here.
2. Full Contact Fighter is a major publication and also has a magazine.
3. Having a printed magazine is not really a good criteria of relevance. If it were, Amazon.com would not be a relevant book retailer - and it is.
4. Sherdog.com is the most influential information agency in MMA. It reaches many more fans than any printed MMA publication or other MMA news outlet, and it's fighter database is one of the most authoritative in the world.
5. MMAWeekly is not "just a website run by fans" either. In the context of the article this publication is extrememly relevant, since it has ranked MMA fighters for years, and Fedor's standing is of utmost relevance.

Thank you. -CasualFighter 22:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Tim Sylvia

I've heard tons of things, but most importantly that Tim Sylvia wanted to fight Fedor when he was champion, and trying to unite the titles into an undisputed world title. Now, there's not going to a title fight, but as recently as March 18th Tim Sylvia said he's been wanting to fight Fedor. Shouldn't we include something like that in there? NasDestiny 14:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

oh god no, tim sylvia is a idiot, and hes well known for saying alot of things he shoulndt have, and i dont see how its relevents since tim isnt even a champion anymore. hell liddell has mentioned recently how he wants to fight Fedor should we add that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JihadJustin (talk • contribs).

Accuracy weight

I reverted the 24.87.7.43 (talk · contribs), because I had added the weight according to Japanese pride site.[1] I belive that japanese site is more accuracy than english pride site [2]. Carlosguitar 02:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, According to several recent interviews, Fedor's weight right now is 103 kg. See the Rossiya interview, for example. -CasualFighter 20:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Um, no: his weight is 105. I think the English side has more accurate numbers. Plus, taht is the weight that was displayed for him during one of his recent fights. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.87.7.43 (talk • contribs).

I am sorry, have you actually read the interviews??? You can find them on Fedor's official site. Also, please sign you comments in the future, Ok? Thanks! -CasualFighter 05:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, weight is a bit unstable in all fighter. Carlosguitar 06:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Masseuse?

Oleg Neustroev is described as a "doctor, masseuse and psychologist all in one." Masseuse is strictly a female term. Masseur is the male term. "Massage therapist" is a term that may be used for either.76.211.186.221 02:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Fight against Martin Lazarev

I found one Fedor's fight, that is not very well known.

RESULT	OPPONENT	          METHOD	    TIME     ROUND	      TOURNAMENT	                 DATE	
Win	Martin Lazarev	Submission (Guillotine choke)	n/a	1	RINGS Russia - Russia vs Bulgaria II	01.09.2001

Info came from the best (as imho reliable) Russian mma web site http://valetudo.ru/fightsdb/info.php?looknfor=fighter&id=265

This Martin Lazarev also fought against Mikhail Iljukhin (who fought against Quinton_Jackson as well as other fighers).

Should I just add the result of this fight to article or is some kind of checking precedure needed? mixer 07:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting... Well, his website doesn't mention it, and neither does fcfighter or sherdog. Let's see if we can find another source besides valetudo.ru. Also, Fedor is supposed to have another online meeting coming up soon - I'll ask him there. -CasualFighter 20:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks in advance! mixer 14:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Google for "RARE Fedor Emelianenko" to see his fight. Carlosguitar 21:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

His nicknames

I've never heard him be called "The Last Russian Emperor" before, I was wondering who put that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.208.222 (talk) 19:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

He's been called that sparsely for a while, although, more people call him The Russian Experiment in my experience.--SalamandraNinja 13:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

"THE LAST RUSSIAN EMPEROR" ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsN19sjpASU- PROOFS ! "IN JAPAN IT HAVE NICKNAMED " "THE LAST RUSSIAN EMPEROR"

Improvements

I'm going to work on bringing this article up to FA status in the next few days. I'm using Simon Byrne, the only other FA related to a combat sport, as a loose guide. east.718 04:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

East718, I recommend firstly to request a peer review, then it tries to meet GA criteria. If article meet GA criteria, then request a good article review. Carlosguitar 08:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to request a peer review, then take it straight to FAC, unless you want to contribute and have any objections. That's usually the route I take when promoting an article to FA status. east.718 20:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

reliable of mmarankings blog

I think that mmarankings blog is not a reliable source. This blog just started on January 2007, and seems to be updated by only one person. Carlosguitar 08:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, especially when the same person keeps adding it to the article at the expense of the Inside Fighting rankings. Inside Fighting and Full Contact Fighter are both reputable magazines, and MMA Weekly and MMANews.com are both reliable online sources. east.718 20:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent revert

I just reverted a lot of changes because of the heavy vandalism, misused fair use images, and broken formatting. east.718 23:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Fedor RUSSIAN !

---

Fedor RUSSIAN ! NO SAY "UKRAINE" !

Analysis of Lindland fight reads biased

The section describing the controversial "rope grab" at Bodog St. Petersburg against Lindland is confusing and, in my opinion, dismissive. I think a cleaner description of what the fighters and their handlers claimed happened -- as opposed to an attempt to resolve their disparate claims into one account -- would remove the bias. A still from that point in the fight wouldn't hurt, either.

In general, the latter parts of the article could use some style and grammar cleanup. There are a lot of misplaced modifiers running around. I am perhaps the world's nerdiest MMA fan.

the linland fight is complete biased trash that should have never even been allowed to live hours. No rules were even broken. We have a freakin video of the entire thing. Holding is against the rules, but putting your arm across the rope is not. I removed it, and no sooner did some admin come in here, and obvious lackey of someone else, and locks it over one edit exahcnge, claiming an "edit war". wikipedia is such a biased trash source these days with admins/moderators running unchecked. I mean, the this fight isn't even notable enough to include the sentence "Fedor beat Lindland on date XXXX". Complete joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.117.71 (talk • contribs)

FYI, your edits were not the reason for the protection. The 26 edits done to the page over the last day were ridiculous with lots of anon vandalism. You just got caught up in that. Also, just for the record, my last edits were not really intended to undo your edits. I used popups to revert 213.85.141.122's last bit of nonsense, and your edit snuck in there in the meantime. I didn't even realize it had been done until after the protection tag went up, otherwise I probably would have corrected my mistake. I (and other editors) agree that the Lindland stuff needs to be heavily edited.

And, please assume good faith. Tuckdogg 01:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"Last Russian Emperor" is a slogan that is written on my remake version of the old FE t-shirt with the falcon. (You can see Fedor wearing it when he corners his brother during Aleksander's fight with James Thompson; it's the one that's totally sweet.) Looking at the video, it does not appear that the original shirt says "Last Russian Emperor" on it. I suspect the guy who sells bootleg versions of those shirts on eBay added it himself. I have never heard Fedor referred to as the "Last Russian Emperor" outside of a t-shirt I bought on eBay. If he has a nickname, I don't know what it is.

24.193.6.64 21:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)Dan Brooks 6/11/07

I haven't done any work on the latter part of the article and I agree it desperately needs improvement, especially the section on his PRIDE career.

The "Last Russian Emperor" is not his nickname, it is just simple vandalism that an editor keeps introducing, along with messing with his nationality. His actual nickname, "The Last Emperor," while not widely used, is properly sourced.

I also agree with your assessment on the Lindland match, I'll make it NPOV and throw in an image. east.718 08:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

FEDOR RUSSIAN ! NO UKRAINE ! HE IS BORN VOROSHILOVGRAD REGION (LUGANK REGION) ! RUSSIAN IN USSR ! EMELIANENKO-EMELIAN-nko ! EMELIAN -RUSSIAN NAME !

I LIVED IN RUSSIA! I KNOW ABOUT WHAT I SPEAK !

"I'M RUSSIAN BOGATYR (WARRIOR)" FEDOR EMELIANENKO !

http://fotoplenka.ru/concurs/2/photo/253/ FEDOR PRODUCTION !

YOU OFFEND FEDOR ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spartakk (talk • contribs)

That's the vandal there, his comments say it all. The shirt has already been discussed by 23.193.6.64. east.718 08:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

"THE LAST RUSSIAN EMPEROR" ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsN19sjpASU- PROOFS ! "IN JAPAN IT HAVE NICKNAMED " "THE LAST RUSSIAN EMPEROR"

Fedor's Nationality and country of birth

I find it ridiculous that there is people writing that he is Ukrainian and was born in Ukraine. Fedor was born to Russian parents. He is Russian by nationality, not Ukrainian. He was born in the USSR not the Ukraine - Ukraine didn't exist until 1991. Many ethnic Russians were born in different republics of the USSR as it was considered one country and Russians were by far the most populous and in every republic. Just because the USSR doesn't exist now, doesn't mean it never existed. Ukraine was a republic of the USSR, not a country. These articles examples where it is written the people were born in the USSR and Russian Empire - Mstislav Rostropovich, Vladimir Horowitz. Here is another example of a famous Russian who was born in what is now called Latvia, but is still considered Russian and born in the USSR - Mikhail Baryshnikov. Also Vladimir Horowitz was born in Kiev, the capital of what is now Ukraine, but Encyclopedia Britanicca says that he is "Russian born" - [3]

"I always wanted to compete, and I'm proud of my life now," said Emelianenko, who in April defeated American Matt Lindland while Russian President Vladimir Putin watched from ringside. "I'm proud of what I've been doing. I feel good about it. And I did what I wanted to do. I always wanted to represent myself and my city and my country."

More than anything else, Fedor insists nationalism and the men who have guided his career, as well as a ceaseless desire to be the best, are what motivate him today.

"I want to stay on top and show people that Russian fighters are very good," he said. "I want to represent myself and to be honored by the Russian people."

- Proof from Fedor himself. [4] Ilya1166 01:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Finally, a civil discussion regarding Emelianenko's nationality. The edit war over this has gone on way too far.

To me, it appears that your points apply to his place of birth, and that is seemingly in both our opinions accurate as it lists Rubenshoe, USSR. However, nationality is the culture that somebody identifies with, and here both Russia and Ukraine apply. Your ESPN article only solidifies that he should be referred to as being both nationalities.

Media outlets also refer to Emelianenko and other athletes from the USSR as Ukrainian. [5] [6] [7] [8] That's all I could come up with off the top of my head.

Finally, I also removed your {{editprotected}} notice, as you did not actually specify an edit to be made, hope you don't mind. east.718 02:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Besides the first reference which is not a reputable source, those references you provided do not say that Fedor is Ukrainian. The first one says he is Ukrainian, the second source is off the same website and says that he is "Ukrainian born", as do other sources which also state that he is Russian but Ukrainian born. As for the other references you provided of the Klitscho brothers, they are indeed Ukrainian by nationality, that is why they are considered Ukrainian. Every reputable source refers to Fedor as Russian, that source is the first I've seen that identified him as Ukrainian, but then later contradicted itself by saying that he is "Ukrainian born". Fedor is not Ukrainian by nationality. Let me repeat - He himself does not consider himself Ukrainian. - "I want to stay on top and show people that Russian fighters are very good," he said. "I want to represent myself and to be honored by the Russian people."

- Proof from Fedor himself. [9] --Ilya1166 04:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Sherdog is indeed a reliable source, it is the largest site devoted to MMA and also the oldest, barring the WON. Regarding my other sources, I apologize, I did a little more digging and the Klitschko brothers do reside in Ukraine. This seems like a silly debate of semantics to get hung up on, perhaps we should seek a WP:THIRD on this? east.718 04:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter what Sherdog writes since Fedor identified himself as Russian, and he has never identified himself as Ukrainian, his nationality is Russian, not both. You said yourself "nationality is the culture that somebody identifies with". Well Fedor identified himself as Russian, and he has never identified himself as Ukrainian, his nationality is Russian, not both. Fedor said, - I want to stay on top and show people that Russian fighters are very good," he said. "I want to represent myself and to be honored by the Russian people." [10]

{{Editprotected}} "Ukrainian" from his nationality be deleted.--Ilya1166 04:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be consensus (yet?) for this change. Please re-enable the editprotected request once consensus has been established. Cheers. --MZMcBride 04:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I've requested a third opinion here. east.718 05:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

If Fedor's statements consistently identify himself as Russian without mention of being Ukrainian, that's what we have to go with. Place of birth doesn't equal current nationality (see e.g. other articles, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali.)--Ty580 06:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. {{Editprotected}} "Ukrainian" from his nationality be deleted and the first sentence, "...is a Ukrainian heavyweight mixed martial artist..." should be changed to "...is a "Russian" heavyweight mixed martial artist...".--Ilya1166 06:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion

From a request at WP:3O. It seems the dispute is already solved (pleas re-list it if it is not) in an amicable way. I would agree with listing Russian as his current nationality, but perhaps it would be appropriate to state " ... is a Soviet-born Russian heavyweight ... " to indicate he is originally from outside the current Russia. --User:Krator (t c) 09:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, my friend here is absolutely right, I am Russian and can confirm that Fedor's name, both first and last, and the names of his parents, sister, and bothers are Russian names. In those pictures Fedor can clearly be seen draped in the Russian flag and the Russian flag is presented at his fights. Fedor speaks perfect Russian, he doesn't speak Ukrainian. Once again, Fedor said, - I want to stay on top and show people that Russian fighters are very good," he said. "I want to represent myself and to be honored by the Russian people." [11] --Ilya1166 09:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm this. In the video it says that "after every fight Fedor takes the microphone and addresses the Russian fans". Beginning at 2:25, Fedor says, "This victory I want to devote, as a Russian, to my country, Russia. A big thankyou to you!".--Ilya1166 10:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree with consensus here, Krator's suggestion is also excellent. I've put in a request for unprotection. east.718 11:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree as well. Tuckdogg 12:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The page is now unprotected, and I've disabled the edit request template above. - auburnpilot talk 17:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected edit request

Source #25 is cited by the wrong sentence, it should be after this one: "...they complained that the referee allowed the rope grabbing to happen by not penalizing Emelianenko." east.718 04:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC) {{editprotected}}

Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 04:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! east.718 04:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)