Talk:Fintan O'Toole

Anglophobe

Is O'Toole an "anglophobe", with a "deep dislike of England and the English People"? The two current sources are The Critic and The Guardian. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:17, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Obviously no, those are both opinion rather than news pieces. Ceoil (talk) 00:41, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

But he's chiefly noted in the UK as one such as surely that should be noted? His two chief preoccupations are dissing the Irish Govt of the day as well as England and its people. It's a bit strange NOT to mention his anglophobia - it's prominent, for example, in the bio of Ernest King and his was far less pronounced than O'Toole's 2A00:23C6:7687:801:6113:1D51:F524:98C2 (talk) 13:15, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

If he is indeed "chiefly noted in the UK as one such ", I would have expected a few more sources than just those two. Could you provide any? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Eh, this is just my opinion, but I never got that impression. He's hardly nationalistic, and it is ok to occasionally criticize political movements within a country will still holding it in great esteem. Ceoil (talk) 19:28, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is accusing him of being a nationalist but his pieces and tone go beyond occasional criticism of political movements within (chiefly) England to a wholesale disdain for the entire country and nearly every single person in it 2A00:23C6:7687:801:9AA:BE65:B2FD:5476 (talk) 09:25, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any actual sources to support that claim? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:46, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

There's the man himself, who says that to be Irish must be to be anti-English - https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-means-ireland-must-be-the-anti-england-1.3051562 and, less charitably perhaps, Kevin Myers, https://kevinmyers.ie/2021/04/14/sanctimonious-otoole-in-the-gutter-again/ , Eilis O'Hanlon https://reaction.life/fintan-otoole-inspired-dangerous-new-wave-brit-bashing-ireland/. The man is, self-avowedly, anti-English. HIs Brexit book was a mess of lazy caricatures that ended up accusing basically the whole country of being psycho-sexual deviants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:7687:801:9AA:BE65:B2FD:5476 (talk) 11:47, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

The irish times article advises that Irish policy opposes Brexit, which is a fairly obvious statement. Kevin Myers is a professional crank, and not a reliable source for anything, least of all a bio of a living persom. Same for O'Hanlon. Howver, I did read the book, and some of it was flowery and OTT for sure. Ceoil (talk) 20:40, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Ps, I have no issue with such a para remaining and wont be reverting no more; it the tone and word "anglophobia" that seems off-putting and axe-grinding. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted the additions which were based on opinion pieces, as they don't meet the high sourcing standards needed perWP:BLP. We should not be debating or deciding ourselves whether someone is an anglophobe, even if it's based on their own published opinions; rather we must rely on what reliable secondary sources say about them. -M.nelson (talk) 12:13, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

With respect to "Politics of Pain" the publisher's own publicity for the book references that it deals with the "national masochism" of the English people (https://headofzeus.com/books/9781789541007) and the book's title renders its subject matter self-evident. Can we please reinsert the reference to this as it also backs up the opening paragraph's statement's about O'Toole's anglophobia 2A00:23C6:7687:801:4909:2C6B:B18C:6CDE (talk) 17:36, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for discussing here. The titles of books often bear no literal relation to their content. Although a publisher's own description can generally be relied on, if a book is notable it shouldn't be difficult to find a secondary source, such as a review, which is also likely to be be more useful to the reader? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:51, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Surely. Jonathan Coe, in the Irish Times (https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/fintan-o-toole-has-nailed-us-to-the-floor-with-a-nine-inch-nail-1.3714502) - " He is fascinated by the success of EL James’s Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy (when demand was at its height a few years ago, I remember an English publisher telling me that it threatened a national paper shortage) and sees in its story of sado-masochistic contract-signing a metaphor for England’s tortured relationship with the EU: “The political erotics of imaginary domination and imaginary submission are the deep pulse of the Brexit psychodrama,” he maintains. “Wherein lies the vicarious thrill of imagining a wealthy, relatively successful twenty-first-century European country as a marionette controlled by a continental puppeteer?” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:7687:801:4909:2C6B:B18C:6CDE (talk) 18:26, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's reasonable to summarize those views as "anglophobia". Per our WP:BLP rules, we must be strict about contentious claims about a living person. A contentious claim like anglophobia must be directly and well-sourced; using the term anglophobia to summarize the above views is original research/synthesis. -M.nelson (talk) 21:49, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

That is understandable but the attitudes he displays in the book are incontrovertible but keep being reverted when mentioned. Labelling a 55 million or so people as moral deviants is surely striking and noteworthy?2A00:23C6:7687:801:48B6:6721:2637:34D1 (talk) 04:45, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

It should be mentioned but I'm not sure how?213.212.90.151 (talk) 13:16, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Articles on Covid vaccines and lockdowns

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-the-three-anti-vaccine-types-egoists-paranoiacs-and-fascists-1.4749235

This article where he called those who do not want the Covid vaccines as "egoists, paranoiacs and fascists" is a very good illustration of his type journalism in support of the establishment. It highlights his alignment with the authorities and a fanatical and zealous stance to polemicize. This shows the intriguing practice he adopts of aligning with authorities while flying a flag for the left.

This will be what many Irish people remember him for so I believe it should be mentioned somewhere in the wiki page. Irrespective of anyone's personal opinion, it is only accurate to record his work on this so in future there will be a clear record on this decisive, perhaps defining, position. 51.37.27.248 (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

It is indeed necessary to record his diatribes against the unvaccinated to give a clear idea of the type of journalism he uses to attack those who do not follow the establishment narrative. His habitual, and in my opinion lazy, labelling of those who disagree as 'fascist' has become his signature technique. I don't think even the left take him seriously anymore after Covid - his government aligned push for conformity is just too obvious. 109.76.212.97 (talk) 17:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

O’Toole’s Anglophobia

Can we add a section on O’Toole’s oft stated hatred of England and the English? The article has been locked. 2A00:23C6:7687:801:91C9:C68C:5B13:71E (talk) 05:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

If you have any sources you're more than welcome to present them here. StairySky (talk) 07:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

But, to be clear, they must be proper neutral sources, making that point clearly and with basis. O'Toole, AFAIK, states that he does not hate the English or England, but critiques aspects of English society / governance / attitudes. He critiques aspects of Irish, and perhaps also American, society, and maybe others too. Reasoned criticism would not rise to the level of Anglophonia. SeoR (talk) 09:13, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

He wrote a book “Brexit and the Politics of Pain” which alleged that the English are racially predisposed to sadomasochism and his Irish Times articles are very anti-English. He has stated in a number of occasions that to be Irish is to be Anti-English. 82.132.185.24 (talk) 06:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The book was of course partly tongue-in-cheek but to many people, perhaps also over the top; others might say it exaggerated to make a point, and then we have the endless Brexit points - claims of self-harming, support by only a minority, considered on false premises, etc. - none of which would belong in this article. In the end, if a neutral source, for example a balanced review, made a relevant point about O'Toole, that absolutely can be cited and added. SeoR (talk) 11:08, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Not sure Anglophobia is the right word but he’s definitely obsessed with the UK. We’re living rent free in his head. Half his articles in the Irish Times are about us, hardly any about Ireland’s fellow EU states, or even Ireland itself it sometimes seems. It’s all a bit weird, disconcerting and creepy but maybe not Anglophobic. 37.244.72.54 (talk) 14:19, 17 May 2023 (UTC)