Talk:Franz Kafka/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Does anyone have geneology on Franz?

I am of kafka descent. I know my people came from Hungary-Romania, Chek regions. My mother was a Kafka. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.128.229.132 (talk) 06:40, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Try this: http://www.franzkafka.de/sixcms/media.php/539/Stammbaum%20Northey02.jpg Lou Kash (talk) 11:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Missing citations

Portions of this article appear to be taken directly from the following website, and do not have attribution. http://www.kafka-online.info/franz-kafka-biography.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.37.13.9 (talk) 00:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Literary and cultural references

If Kafka's Dick, then surely also Alan Bennett's The Insurance Man, a wonderful BBC drama from the same period starring Daniel Day-Lewis as Kafka.77.100.218.86 (talk) 01:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

The difference is that Kafka's Dick has an article, The Insurance Man doesn't. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

influences and influenced

I believe the sections of Kafka's influences and people he influenced should be expanded. His impact on western literature and philosophy was huge, but the section makes it look like it was minuscule. I added Camus and Sartre, but I believe there are many more. --93.163.53.191 (talk) 13:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

That would be great, if you wanted to work on this and have the sources. Other articles like this that have made featured status might give you a good idea of how these sections are usually handled in the best articles. Sindinero (talk) 17:37, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Links to incorporate into article

Poss external, poss refs:

• Bio
• Felice photo (can't confirm it's free)
• review (already in article, added another bit)
• Diary "Als ich am 13. August zu Brod kam, saß sie bei Tische und kam mir doch wie ein Dienstmädchen vor. Ich war auch gar nicht neugierig darauf, wer sie war, sondern fand mich sofort mit ihr ab. Knochiges leeres Gesicht, das seine Leere offen trug." (added as a ref)

The above are now in Felice Bauer, how much duplication is wanted?

On Marxism and Kafka:

• socialistworker.co.uk 2007, new translation (added ref and on bit of info)
• radicalnotes.com 2009 (added as ref and a quote)
• Hughes (JSTOR version already downloaded and entered)
• The myth of power and the self book, 2001 (already in article, added a new entry)
• history guide (added ref and a bit of info)
• Franz Kafka : an anthology of Marxist criticism / edited and translated by Kenneth Hughes. 1981 (ref created-book version of jstor article, no info added yet, would need page numbers to use this)

On existentialism

• summary online-literature.com (added ref and a bit of info)

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Kafka "Publications"

This term isn't right either because it sounds like stuff he published, but it's about other things related to him, even ongoing Kafka projects.PumpkinSky talk 21:26, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think "Publications" is bad, since it seems clear that it indicates Kafka's work that's been published or is in the process of being published. I can see the logic to your objection, though. Would something like "Publication history" or "Published editions of Kafka's work" be better? Sindinero (talk) 22:08, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. The section doesn't mesh well right now. It's a mix of his works and things like modern day studies of Kafka. Let me mull this over. Right now I'm going to work on a table of Kafka's writings. PumpkinSky talk 22:19, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

In the making: a separation of works published by Kafka, published by Brod, published by others, especially in English, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Well done, and keep up the excellent work on this article, both of you! Getting this to GA or FA status would be excellent. Sindinero (talk) 15:20, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

1963 Kafka conference

In the "Legacy" section, it might be worthwhile to include a mention or brief discussion of the 1963 Kafka conference held in Liblice, Czechoslovakia, since it shows FK's contentious role within Eastern Bloc cultural policy. Under Stalinism and the dominance of Socialist Realism, FK was scorned as representative of a literature of bourgeois irrationalism, but the conference marked a beginning reassessment of his work (especially his portrayal of alienation) in the so-called "alienation debate" after Stalin's death. David Bathrick's book The Powers of Speech: The Politics of Culture in the GDR (1995) has a good discussion of this (67-70). Do others think this is worth including? Sindinero (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I have a PDF of a journal article (the Hughes entry in the Bibliography, currently not used as a ref). If you'd like to help, email me and I'll send you a copy. PumpkinSky talk 11:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I can probably find that one online, but I'll email you if I can't. I have my hands full with other things for the next few weeks, but hopefully I can get to it after that. Sindinero (talk) 13:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It's on JSTOR, if you have access.PumpkinSky talk 15:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added a sentence about this, see this, expand/tweak if anyone likes. PumpkinSky talk 11:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll expand on this point when I get a moment; I like what you added, but I think there's more to it than that. In general, great work on the article and it's nice to see it as a good article. Sindinero (talk) 14:40, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Graduation date conflict

There are reliable sources that report two different dates for Kafka graduating from university: 18 June 1906 (Murray) and 18 July 1906 (Brod). I'm not sure which date is correct. Most other sources seem to have copied one of these two source or wiki, which currently says June. Until we can confirm which is correct, I'm listing July since Brod actually knew Kafka. I'll make a note explaining the discrepancy. PumpkinSky talk 11:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Or say "mid-1906"?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

"Top ten" of German novels

Gerda Arendt just restored [1][2] the following sentence in the lead: "Two of his novels are considered among the top ten German-language novels of the twentieth century."

I consider this sentence unacceptable. The wording implies that there is such a thing as a commonly accepted, generally agreed-on canon of the "top ten" German novels – a suggestion that is, frankly, ridiculous. The statement, which in the lead is unsourced, is apparently meant to refer to a statement further down in the text, which says "In 1999 a committee of 99 authors, scholars, and literary critics ranked the The Trial and The Castle, the second and ninth most significant German-language novels of the 20th century". This may well be true, but it's a one-off publicity gimmick by some publisher, which, as far as I am aware, has had no wider repercussions and no particular weight in the literary world. We actually have an article about that list, at Best German Novels of the Twentieth Century. Both that article and the reference here are sourced to a self-published press release by the organisation that sponsored the contest.

I have no beef with letting the original statement sit in the article body, but having it in the lead is problematic. If it stays there, then per WP:LEADCITE it should be supported by a reference, because it's obviously a challengeable statement, and it definitely needs to be reworded so as to attribute and hedge it properly. But even then, I believe it creates an unnecessary "undue weight" issue, so my preference is to leave it out completely. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Accepted, I won't revert again ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:59, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Franz Kafka/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Grapple X (talk · contribs) 22:38, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

This is a pretty broad and important topic so I'm going to take a while to review it. For today it's just going to be an initial pass on prose; will look at the other criteria over the remainder of the weekend.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   "Kafka was born in a middle class, German-speaking, Jewish family, in Prague, then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire." -> a few too many commas here; try "Kafka was born in a middle class, German-speaking Jewish family in Prague, then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire."
   "His writing has been associated with existentialism, socialism and Marxism, the influence of judaism has been interpreted in different ways" -> stick something like "and" or "while" after "Marxism, "; and Judaism is a proper noun.
   "Only a small part of Kafka's works was published during his lifetime, stories in literary magazines, and the story collections Betrachtung (Contemplation) and Ein Landarzt (A Country Doctor) as books." -> I think this needs a stronger break after "lifetime" than a comma, perhaps an em dash.
   "The large body of his writing, including unfinished works such as all his novels, was published posthumously, mostly by his friend Max Brod who ignored his wish to destroy the manuscripts." -> I'd probably change "large body" to "majority".
   Why is "Deutsche Knabenschule" in italics but "Altstädter Deutsches Gymnasium" isn't?
   " Together they read Plato's Protagoras in the original Greek, on Brod's initiative, and Flaubert's L'éducation sentimentale and La Temptation de St. Anthoine in French, on Kafka's initiative." -> The second use of "initiative" seems too repetitive; try "at Kafka's suggestion".
   "an orthodox hasidic Warsaw family." -> I believe Hasidic is normally capitalised (it appears to be in the article on Hasidism).
   "1914-1915" -> should be an en dash, but I'd also be fine with "1914 or 1915".
   Link Heinrich von Kleist?
   " In the opinion of literary critic Harold Bloom, that despite Kafka being uneasy with his Jewish heritage, he was the quintessential Jewish writer." -> ditch the "that".
   Maybe I'm missing something but the name in note C is no different to the name the note is beside.
   "rendered as (Shamefaced Lanky and Impure in Heart)" -> why the brackets?
   "Kafka's influential story Die Verwandlung (The Metamorphosis) was first printed in Die Weißen Blätter. Eine Monatsschrift., a monthly edition of expressionist literature, edited by René Schickele, in the October 1915 issue." Is this meant to be several sentences? There's a few full stops in there I'm not sure about.
   "and Amerika, which Kafka's had titled Der Verschollene (The Man who Disappeared)." -> shouldn't be possessive, just "which Kafka had titled".
   Just noticing it now but it seems there's a lot of repeated wikilinks, especially in the titles of stories; these should be cut down.
   I think the references to "Britons and Americans", etc, should really use the term Anglosphere, as to just specify two regions you're cutting out Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, etc, which follow essentially the same cultural norms as you describe.
   I'd recommend trimming out the unreferenced entries in "Literary and cultural references" rather than tracking down references for them.

   Some entries - likely the more important ones - have articles, references could be taken from there.

   I suggest to keep several links to stories and novels, as readers may not read from the beginning, and to keep all links in the sortable table. We are debating if the table of selected works should stay in the article or be separated, and if it stays, which position, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

   They can certainly stay in the table, things like image captions, tables, etc generally aren't beholden to WP:OVERLINK. I think the table works as is but if it becomes an exhaustive list rather than a selective one then it might make a good FLC in its own right. GRAPPLE X 17:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

    Done but I may have missed some unlinks PumpkinSky talk 01:02, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

   Got the rest of them for you; User:Ucucha/duplinks is a handy tool to use for this. GRAPPLE X 11:16, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

   Not checked as yet but I've added some {{cn}} tags that'll need seen to.

   All addressed. PumpkinSky talk 22:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Seems fine.

   B. Focused:

   About right. There are some sections which could be spun out if they were to grow any larger but as is, it's about the right size.

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   Yep.

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   Although the article has only recently undergone a large overhaul, I see no edit warring recently to discern me. However the talk page seems to carry a notice about heated discussions so I'm going to keep an eye on this for another day or two to be sure.

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   I'm wondering why File:CountryDoctor.jpg is tagged as fair use while the similar files File:Kafka Betrachtung 1912.jpg and File:Kafka Das Schloss 1926.jpg are marked as free; they seem to be contemporary with each other or am I wrong here? File:DPAG 2008 Franz Kafka.jpg has also been tagged as possibly not being public domain as claimed; if it's not then I don't really see a strong case for using it but if it turns out that it is then it can be kept fine.

   See "Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard#Photos_of_books_by_Kafka" a thread I started on Commons. Two of the book covers you list were released by the photographer, but the other wasn't. I think they could all be PD-OLD so I asked. Let's hope we get a good, accurate, quick response. As for the stamp photo, I checked on that when Gerda and I started this. It was properly licensed when uploaded but German law has changed, and their is a case working through the German appellate courts now on this, with the outcome expected that these stamps will have to be deleted. So I've just deleted this one to be safe. PumpkinSky talk 22:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)......While the Landartzt one was taken out of the article, looks like it was PD, [ https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/w/index.php?title=Commons%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&diff=76705365&oldid=76687003 this diff on commons] PumpkinSky talk 00:39, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

   If the Landartzt one is PD-OLD then it can be re-inserted easily; even sticking it in the article on the book would also keep it handy for future use. I'm not up to date on German copyright law but I had thought that public domain was one of those irrevocable statuses. Removing the stamp to be safe does seem a good idea though; the article is still well-illustrated anyway. Just want to let the article sit for a day or so to be sure of stability; aside from that we're looking at a pass now. GRAPPLE X 03:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Images used are fine, though the three book covers should either be kept aligned on the same side or spaced out a little more; as is they overlap somewhat which has the undesired effect of framing text between two pictures, which is something to avoid.

   I understand that there should be no overlap, but am more concerned with pic matching text. I would like to see the student pic (before 1900) next to the text "Brod soon noticed that while Kafka was shy and talked seldom" - it's now under employment 1907. Best probably to write more prose ;) - Book covers the same: Betrachtung should appear where Betrachtung is mentioned, best - see above, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

   Perhaps the quickest solution would be swapping that pic with the building; as the student pic is a bit more relevant to a given time than a modern picture of a building which he went to school in (plus it was the location of his father's shop so it's not limited to just his school days). GRAPPLE X 22:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

   If the layout issue can't be resolved, I'm fine with removing some of them. I'm also fine with whatever you and Gerda work out. Photo layout is not a big deal to me here, though I do agree with Gerda that it's nice to have to the side when they're being discussed. PumpkinSky talk 22:56, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

   For the moment it's fine, Landarzt dropped as too many of more or less the same kind, will add it to the book (thought is was there). School building for employment is not ideal, but his office building may have looked similar ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Will return tomorrow for further points. GRAPPLE X 22:38, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

   Well, I'm satisfied. In all the time I was reviewing it, nothing has broken out; and searching back four months in the history shows only standard levels of vandalism here and there, so I don't really know what the talk page notice is warning about. I'm happy enough to promote this; well done guys. GRAPPLE X 20:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the thorough review! PumpkinSky talk 21:04, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree, thank you for helping with good questions, suggestions and edits, - a pleasure! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Syntax

I was thrilled to see an analysis of the translation problems faced by German to English translators. However, the dependency tree doesn't really illustrate the translation problem since it only shows the English head initial sentence structure not the comparable German structure. Also it is uncited, and the link to the vancouver university homepage where the tree was apparently originally found is dead. Perhaps the syntactic tree should be removed (as much as I love those things myself), I will try to find references to syntactic analyses of Kafka's works to use as citations for the claims. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:33, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Gerda did that part. Glad you like it and your help would be awesome. PumpkinSky talk 18:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

How about this. If we can't find such a graphic, do you know how to make one? PumpkinSky talk 11:43, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but that article doesn't mention Kafka. I probably could create a syntactic tree, but I am nervous about OR.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Good point. PumpkinSky talk 17:41, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and asked the user who created the tree to create one for the German sentence also, I think we can argue that doing this is not OR, but more like creating an illustration of the points made by the translation sources.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:54, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

• Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari in (Kafka towards a Minor Literature) describe Kafka's language as "deterritorialized" alluding to the way it is very sparse undecorated, and also to the way in which he doesn't write in High german but in a German influenced by Yiddish and Czech in terms of syntax and style. This analysis and evaluation of Kafka's syntax is repeated in a few general works about him and seem notable. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:58, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Found this online, with a page number. Pls review. Anything else we need to add? Thanks for info and edits!PumpkinSky talk 17:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Dostoevsky

Hello,

he called Dostoevsky his blood-brother. Perhaps worth a mention. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 12:20, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Also there should be more info about his influences. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 12:21, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Eg "Kafka nannte neben Grillparzer, Kleist und Flaubert auch Fjodor Dostojewski als seine „wahren Blutsbrüder“.[23]" which I wrote on the German page sometime. A Franz Kafka Encyclopedia covers many important information. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 12:25, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you talking about Heinrich von Kleist? His influence section and syntax (thread above) are the two sections I'd like to work before taking to FAC. I added the blood brothers line, please review. As for the book, I don't have a copy and it's expensive. Can you provide info and page numbers onwiki or by scanning and emailing? My library doesn't have a copy either. PumpkinSky talk 14:22, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Most of the pages are available on Gbooks. The page number for this claim is 74. Also, I find the article excellent ;). Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 16:33, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

On de wiki it says page 47. Which Kleist? PumpkinSky talk 17:22, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Found it online, the English edition at least has it on 74 and it is Heinrich.PumpkinSky talk 18:01, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Added, check it out. PumpkinSky talk 19:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. What about the "Jewish agnostics" cat? Is there any information available for this? Perhaps a quote. Regards.--Kürbis (✔) 10:20, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

What about this line that's already in it: "Yet he was at times alienated from Judaism and Jewish life: "What have I in common with Jews? I have hardly anything in common with myself and should stand very quietly in a corner, content that I can breathe".[74]" PumpkinSky talk 11:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Languages

According to the article now Kafka and his family is characterized only as German speaking, I wonder if this is the case. I think it is likely that Kafka also spoken both Czech and Yiddish. This source [3] which is behind a opaywall so that I can only read the abstract seems to suggest so, the Deleuze/Guattari source also suggests that he grew up in a plurilingual environment, as do several other sources commeinting on Yiddish and Czech influences in his language. I think it would be interesting to delve a little into his multilingualism.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:16, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

"He was also fluent in Czech" already in the articel, family section. PumpkinSky talk 19:12, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, great. But doesn't this motivate a little more about the linguistics environment in which he grew up. So why did he learn Czech for example, in school, with friends on the street, or at home or what? If his family spoke both Czech and German for example then just describing them as "German speaking" seems a little inaccurate. I'd be interested in that kind of information as a reader.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:14, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

You don't put <ref> around sfn refs. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:30, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

ah, ok.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:30, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Still researching all this. It does seem his family spoke all three to at least some degree and that German was the main household language. PumpkinSky talk 19:35, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Got a ref for mauseldeutsch? PumpkinSky talk 19:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

That's in Gray 2005, page 147. I put it in but maybe it got lost between my jumbling the reference tags.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:41, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Just found a good one on his Czech from Johns Hopkins Univ. Adding now. PumpkinSky talk 19:50, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Real life delayed me, entered now. He studied Czech 8 years. PumpkinSky talk 21:14, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Thats more than "a few lessons" as claimed by Koelb. :) thanks for finding out!·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:16, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

He knew it well enough to write letters in Czech to his Czech girlfriend, but it's said his Czech wasn't as good as his German. German is clearly his native tongue. PumpkinSky talk 21:19, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

eBookEden

I was asked at my talk page to look into whether this publication took content from us or the other way around. First thing I see is that the publisher is eBookEden; this is good news. See |Mirrors and forks. But just to be absolutely sure, I traced the influx of content visible on the page linked by Truthkeeper (thans, TK!) at [4] as well as the first page. I searched for the phrase 'major fiction writers' from their lead (which is tellingly familiar in configuration to our "house style"): this phrase entered into our article in September 2008 when an IP removed the word German from "major German fiction writers". The rest of the lead is either identical or very close to the first page of that publication. This is a good sign of "natural evolution" since it is unlikely that somebody copied their text, but added the word "German" - which somebody else later removed. I then did a search for "eponymous author", a line used to describe Jeremy Iron's role. This was inserted in April 2004 with very different language. Notice how significantly different the page was then from the rest of the eBookEden. Just to nail it completely, I looked at a significant addition of text dating after the phrase "major fiction writers" entered, and found this December 2008 edit. This content is present in the eBookEden as well. These are clear signs that the content evolved here naturally. This is a {{backwardscopy}} (I'm not using the template because it's listed at Mirrors & Forks). And most definitely not a reliable source. This publisher shouldn't be used for anything on Wikipedia per WP:CIRCULAR. :/ --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 10:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

OK. thanks for that hardwork MRG. So TK's and my suspicions were warranted. As I just posted on your and TK's pages, I've got usage of that source cut down to one ref being used twice. PumpkinSky talk 10:39, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, they were. :) And great! I assume you'll be yanking that, too. It's no better than having no source at all. :) (eta: worse actually, since it leads people to believe there is a reliable source, where there is not. :/) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 10:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Copy-editing queries

• "Leading critics": Is "leading" necessary, or would simply "critics" suffice?

I guess just critics is okay.PumpkinSky talk 20:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I just recalled that before someone said it's important to say "leading" here. PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "in a house on the Old Town Square": Is this place particularly significant? I would be inclined to cut it otherwise.

It's historically important, but for wiki, eh.PumpkinSky talk 20:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I commented it out for the moment, but anyone who thinks it needs to be there can just put it back. Personally, I think it flows better without. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:35, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Just to jump in, I think it should be there. These seemingly trivial facts are both interesting and important for anyone who's looking for info on Kafka and help to situate his biography on the map of Prague. (And yes, Old Town Square is quite significant, and anyone who's ever been to Prague will probably be able to recall it immediately.) Sindinero (talk) 12:23, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• Ditto Hermann's information. I notice Brianboulton mentioned this in the PR.

Do what you and Brian think best. But note Gerda's response in the PR. PumpkinSky talk 20:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it's better if I'm not the one to make this call. For the record, I would be inclined to cut "Hermann's father Jacob, a shochet or ritual slaughterer, came to Prague from Osek, a Czech-speaking Jewish village near Písek in southern Bohemia. Hermann first worked as a traveling sales representative, then established himself as an independent retailer of men's and women's fancy goods and accessories, employing up to 15 people. He used a jackdaw (kavka in Czech) as his business logo." This is simply to improve the flow a little, and to me it does not seem relevant. But I suppose there is the Czech connection, so I'll leave it to others to determine. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:35, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I would like to keep (how?) "ritual slaughterer" (for Judaism), "employing up to 15 people" (because the size of the business, where his mother worked long hours, away from the kids, seems relevant), and "(kavka in Czech)" as related to the name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:08, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

What about "Hermann's father Jacob came to Prague from Osek, a Czech-speaking Jewish village near Písek in southern Bohemia. A shochet or ritual slaughterer, he eventually became a goods retailer [Does this work?] who employed up to 15 people and used a jackdaw (kavka in Czech) as his business logo." I think that is less cumbersome but still includes your important points. As long as it makes sense... Sarastro1 (talk) 22:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I stuck this version in the article. PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

The exact language aside, the facts were totally wrong: 1) Jacob Kafka, the slaughterer, lived and died (1814-1889) in Osek_(Strakonice_District) near Strakonice. This is the Osek cemetery where Jacob Kafka is burried: http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Osek._Okres_Strakonice._(14).jpg - which I can confirm 1st-hand: 25 years ago I was there with my grandfather (his mother was Franz Kafka's first cousin, so he was also a great-grandson of Jacob Kafka). 2) Hermann Kafka was born on Osek, but he eventually moved to Prague. 3) The other grandfather of FK, Jacob Löwy, also moved to Prague, but from Poděbrady. So feel free to adjust the language, but please keep the facts ;) thanks Lou Kash (talk) 01:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Kafka's father dominated his childhood, which had a large impact on his writing": Which impacted his writing: his father's dominance, his childhood, or both?

His father, the refs are clear on this.PumpkinSky talk 20:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I think we need a better way of saying this. I'm not sure dominated is the right word here; maybe "was a dominant figure" or "the influence of his father dominated Kafka's childhood". Was it his influence, his presence, his absence, his opinions. I think it needs tightening a little, which would also solve the ambiguity. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:35, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

The refs say Kafka's father was domineering, overbearing. That's why he wrote the long letter to his dad, to "tell him off" and "get things off his chest". Can you word something with that? PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "the street now known as Masná street": Again, is this significant?

Gerda, was denkst du?PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

To me it seems significant. Masna is a central street in Old Town, near the Jewish quarter; anyone who knows Prague will probably appreciate the added information. Sindinero (talk) 12:23, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Let's keep it then if it helps those who know and doen't disturb others, Gerda Arendt (talk)

• "Kafka's circle of friends included the journalist Felix Weltsch, who studied philosophy, the writers Oskar Baum and Franz Werfel, and the actor Yitzchak Lowy who came from an orthodox Hasidic Warsaw family." Did all of them come from a Hasidic background, or just the latter?

Just the last one. PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "difficult for him to concentrate on his writing": Minor point, but this is the first mention of him writing.

So we should do what? I don't get it. PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Just for the sake of the reader, we need to tell them that he had started writing! How serious was his writing at this stage, and what was he writing? I can add it if you can give me the general flavour. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

He began writing in 1904, still at university. Graduated in 1906. He got more serious about it while at the insurance firm. So far all short stories. He didn't write his first novel til 1912. PumpkinSky talk 22:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Can you check what I've added is covered by the ref. Sarastro1 (talk) 13:27, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "found more congenial employment": In the sense it left him more time? Perhaps this should be made explicit, perhaps something like "employment more amenable to writing".

Precisely.PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "he was a diligent and capable employee.": POV? Who says so?

I changed to "Kafka often claimed to despise this job." PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "He was also given the task of compiling and composing the annual report on the insurance institute and was reportedly quite proud of the results, sending copies to friends and family": Reported by who? And a ref is needed for the end of this paragraph, I think.

Copyedited and added ref. PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• There are a few quotes which need in-text attribution, such as "a loosely knit group of German-Jewish writers who contributed to the culturally fertile soil of Prague from the 1880s till after World War I".

Found better ref and cut per the ref. PumpkinSky talk 23:43, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

• "associated with his tuberculosis": First mention here perhaps requires some elaboration. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:28, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Brod says "...he tried to have his exemption cancelled and go into the army. his illness (the TB) brought this plan to nothing.". can you word that appropriately? PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Added date of diagnosis from later in the article, but could someone add a ref to support it? I've left a tag for now.

added a ref from an academic journal PumpkinSky talk 17:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 13:27, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Break

• "Kafka read a lot his whole life": This really doesn't fit in the 2nd paragraph of education, and I think it needs a better location if it is to be kept.

Will leave that to you. PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Kafka also visited brothels most of his adult life.": As above with reading, this needs including, but does not really fit where it has been placed and seems tacked on. Even some linking comment would improve matters here.

I'm open to suggestions. PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I had a go at this using the refs below. Please check that it is not too much. Also, put it at the start of the Felice Bauer paragraph, which doesn't quite feel right, but it is too short for its own paragraph and I think it should go at the start of the section as it kind of informs the rest of it. Any tweaks or suggestions more than welcome as I'm not sure I can suggest much better than this. Feel free to undo it completely. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:10, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks fine. PumpkinSky talk 21:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• Similarly, the "private life" section becomes a list of women towards the end. There is a danger of slipping into proseline here. I think it needs drawing together as far as possible, which would allow linking in the brothels comment. Even something, if the sources allow, along the lines of how much he enjoyed the company of women! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:52, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

• A question related to Felice Bauer: she is known (by his "Letters to Felice") by her first name (compare discussion on her article), not as Bauer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:03, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

He definitely loved the ladies! You need more info? What type? PumpkinSky talk 00:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Can you give me a ref/quote which says so? That would do, and we can tie it all up then. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• That's fair enough. Please feel free to revert anything I've messed up; I'm not sure myself of the best way to phrase it, and it could perhaps use a note to explain so that no-one else changes it. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:27, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Hawes mentions Kafka with brothels on pages 32-33, 59, 70, 83, 137, 186, 191, and 200. Kafka was into porn too. Re brothels on page 70 "he and Brod regarded visits to brothels and an integral part of their itenerary. more directly, Kafka wrote on August 19, 1908, that he had been feeling so lonely he went to a whore" and on page 186 "we already know all about his locked-away porn and brothels of his twenties...his last definitely known visit to a brothel ...(in Jan 1922)...(Brod) notes how kafka is "tortured" by sex." And on page 200 he talks about Kafka's "sexual angst" and his inability to admit to his "dirty" sexual tastes.PumpkinSky talk 22:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)i

OK, tried to smooth all this, but please check that it is balanced and still says what it should. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:10, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Like it. PumpkinSky talk 21:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "had the ability to describe dreams and irrealism in a childlike playful attitude with realism in details": Not quite sure that irrealism and realism are a good idea in close proximity like this; could another word be used for one of them? Sarastro1 (talk) 18:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I think Gerda has this book. I have the English version. That ref is to the German one. PumpkinSky talk 22:55, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't find it right now, probably made a mistake in the page number. But I found two other quotes, and the second on has the core thing (my POV) that he described the unreal with realistic precision. (I will keep looking for this one.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Looking closer, it's my summary of the end (comparing Kleist and Kafka) of Brod's First chapter, yes p: 41 my book: "Der kristallklare Stil und der Realismus der Einzelheiten beider erscheint dann als Kompensation, als Gegenwehr starker Naturen gegen solche Neigung zu Traum und Kindheit, - bei beiden Dichtern wird das im Grunde Unauflösliche, Geheimste, Dunkelste mit möglichst hellen, einfachen, scharfbegrenzten Worten erzählt." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm still not too sure about this one (and can't read the above quote!); I'd suggest a rewording or a direct quote, but I think this is best left to Gerda one way or another. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Trying to translate: "The crystal clear style and the realism of details of both (Kafka and Kleist) seems to be a compensation, a resistance of strong characters against a tendency to dream and childhood, - both poets narrate the profoundly indissoluble, most secret, darkest with words of utmost clarity, simplicity and sharp precision." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Good! I just did a ce. A minute ago, look for the time hack or the edit summary "ce per Gerda".PumpkinSky talk 22:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "who was able to phrase his speaking as if it were music": I think this needs attribution: who said so?

Literal translation: "The crystal-clear style and the realism of the details of both will appear as compensation, as defense strong natures against such a tendency to dream and childhood - when two poets is that basically tells indissoluble, most secret, Darkest with as bright, simple, sharply defined words" PumpkinSky talk 17:26, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I think Gerda has this book. I have the English version. That ref is to the German one. PumpkinSky talk 22:55, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I said so as a summary of Brod's: "Wenn er vorlas - das war seine besondere Leidenschaft - unterordnete sich der Ausdruck des einzelnen Wortes bei voller Klarheit jedes Lautes, in zuweilen schwindelerregendem Zungentempo, ganz einer musikalischen Breite der Phrasierung von endlos langem Atem und gewaltig sich steigernden Crescendi der dynamischen Terrassen - wie sie ja auch seine Prosa hat, deren abgeschlossene Stücke zuweilen, wie "Die Zirkusreiterin", im Wunderbau eines einzigen Satzes gewachsen sind." (This is, btw, a sentence of the qualities it describes.) In my source it begins on p. 96, but most is 97, more easily found. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Literal translation (Brod said it): "When he read - that was his particular passion - the expression of the individual word with full clarity of every sound, in sometimes dizzying tongue pace quite a musical breadth of phrasing of endless stamina and vastly to increasing crescendo of dynamic terraces - as indeed his prose, which sometimes ended pieces like "The circus horsewoman", the marvelous structure of a single set are grown." (there's some special vocabulary here, so this isn't very good translation, Gerda could do better). PumpkinSky talk 17:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

"Vorlesen" is "reading loud to listeners", better word? "unterordnen" = "subordinate", better word? My version: "When he read aloud - this was his particular passion - the expression of the single word, in full clarity of every sound, in sometimes dizzying speed, was subordinated completely to a musical broadness of phrasing in endlessly long breath and immensely increasing crescendi of dynamic terraces - as also in his prose, where pieces, such as "D.Z." grew in the miraculous building of a single sentence." (illustrating the paragraph "difficulty in translation) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it's fine now; attributed this to Brod in the text. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "He went after the small and simple with love and precision, discovering aspects that seem strange but are nothing but true": This seems a bit abstract for an encyclopedia article; maybe better rendered as a direct quote?

I think Gerda has this book. I have the English version. That ref is to the German one.PumpkinSky talk 22:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Quote Brod: "Kafka ging dem Einzelnen, Unscheinbaren mit solcher Liebe und Genauigkeit auf den Grund, daß eben Dinge hervorkamen, die man bisher nie geahnt hatte, die seltsam schienen, aber doch nichts als wahr sind." p. 52 --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Literal translation: "Kafka went to individuals/details, inconspicuous with such love and precision to/on the bottom/ground, just things came out that hitherto had not been suspected, which was odd, but are nothing but true." PumpkinSky talk 17:17, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I thought you could just take your book ;) my guess: "auf den Grund gehen" - to explore profoundly"? my version: "K explored the detail, the inconspicuous, profoundly with such love and precision, that things surfaced that had been unforeseen, that seemed strange, but were nothing but true. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I think it is better as a quote than another "According to Brod..."; but I'll leave it to the authors as I've no idea of how German should be directly quoted on here! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I put in Gerda's version.PumpkinSky talk 21:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "However, a study of Kafka's family and early life by psychoanalyst Alice Miller in her book Thou Shalt Not Be Aware offers a different angle on the sources of Kafka's psychological anguish and his expression of his painful early life in his writings.": I'm not quite making sense of this. What is her different angle? As written, this suggests that she is analysing the sources of his expression of his early life in his writings, which I think needs expressing more simply. Or are the anguish and painful early life both in his writings? Not clear, either way.

I don't recall writing that. Maybe, maybe not. I think we can cut it and the sentence before it and the quote after will still stand.PumpkinSky talk 23:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, cut. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• Diary entry for 21 June; is this used by Miller as an example? What does she use it to demonstrate? Sarastro1 (talk) 18:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Look at the ref after the quote, it's just a diary entry. Miller didn't make that--cut Miller, confusion solved.PumpkinSky talk 23:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

My only word of caution on this is that it looks slightly like OR. It may be better to find a source to make this point about anguish, rather than slipping into editorial voice. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Found journal article, will add in a few minutes.PumpkinSky talk 21:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Kafka attended meetings of the Klub Mladých, a Czech anarchist, anti-militarist and anti-clerical organization": Do we have a date for this? Sarastro1 (talk) 18:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

"before the war (1914)", I added it with ref. PumpkinSky talk 23:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• ""Don't forget Kropotkin!"": Given that the point seems to be that he referred to Kropotkin in his diary, and this was already made, do we need this quote?

Flexible, but I think it shows somethingPumpkinSky talk 23:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine with me, not a big issue. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• Did the East European views of Kafka vary by time, place or person? And did Kafka portray the bureaucratic bungling (i.e. he was bungling) or did his work attack/satirise/point out the bungling? Sarastro1 (talk) 18:52, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

By time and place. Diff east europe countries have varied views and as communism/socialism changed over time, so did the views of Kafka. He'd attack/satirize the bureaucracies. PumpkinSky talk 23:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, tweaked to reflect this and make it clearer. Also switches "portray" to "satirise" to avoid ambiguity. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:23, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Break

• "His diary is full of references to Yiddish writers, known and unknown": Known and unknown to who? I'm not clear how his diary can be full of references to unknown writers.

He probably meant "not well know". I think we could cut "known and unknown". PumpkinSky talk 23:37, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Kafka considered moving to Palestine with Felice Bauer": When?

As this involves both Felice and Dora, this had to have occurred over several years, a long term desire, roughly 1912-1924 or so. PumpkinSky talk 23:37, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah. As this is tricky to say concisely, maybe it is better left a little vague! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "He studied Hebrew while living in Berlin, and hired a friend of Brod's, Pua Bat-Tovim, a university student from Palestine, to teach him some Hebrew.": If he was studying it, why did he need someone to teach it to him? Would "further tutor him" work here?

I don't see the inconsistency. Students have teachers. But however you want to word this is fine with me. PumpkinSky talk 23:37, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Tweaked a little, not least to avoid repetition of "Hebrew". Sarastro1 (talk) 21:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• "The work is regarded as one of the seminal works of fiction of the 20th century": Regarded by who?

Combining the refs Sokel, Luke, and Dodd, but the closest direct quote is prob from Luke, who said "Of Die Verwandlung and Der Tod in Venedig, two of the greatest Novellen of the twentieth century"PumpkinSky talk 23:46, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Went for "critics regard", but feel free to change this. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "and its first line is one of the most well known ever written.": Says who? These last two points need attribution in the text, not just a ref. And is there any reason we could not quote the line for those who are sadly ignorant (like me, I'm afraid!)

Michael Delahoyde of Washington State University says "In one of the most famous first sentences in all of literature, Franz Kafka confronts us with the premise, or "thesis" even, of The Metamorphosis: (quotes sentence in English)" PumpkinSky talk 23:46, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Not a big deal, but I think it looks a little like editorial voice, and I still think the quote would be good. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "When Brod published it after Kafka's death he titled it Amerika.": I've moved this a little, but where it originally was it was unreferenced. I haven't tagged it, but it needs a ref.

Added.PumpkinSky talk 00:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• There is some date inconsistency in the article; the earlier sections are of the 27 September 2012 format, the later ones use September 27, 2012. I think it's better if the primary authors decide which one is more suitable. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:06, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Ugh, working. PumpkinSky talk 00:04, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, my German automatism ;) - or should we consider it for a writer of German? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I switched them all to Gerda's format last night: 12 September 2012, for example, though I might have missed one or two.PumpkinSky talk 12:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Impressed, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:33, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• Is there any particular reason, actually, that we need to give the actual dates of publication, such as 28 September 1909, rather than just September 1909 or even just 1909? Sarastro1 (talk) 20:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

That's a Gerda thing. We'll wait til she responds ;-) PumpkinSky talk 20:44, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Here I am and don't remember ;) I remember the story writing (Das Urteil) in one particular night, that should be kept, other than that, no need. Month yes, if meaningful, for example in 1924, could mean before or after he died, Gerda Arendt (talk)

Left this unchanged, not a big problem. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Papers not yet published...": Just checking: this means they have still not been published to this day? I've tweaked it to read like this.

Yes,much is not published to this day. PumpkinSky talk 23:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• Do we need the number of letters and notebooks taken by Dora Diamant, or are we OK to keep it as "many letters and notebooks"?

I lean to keeping the specifics since we know them. PumpkinSky talk 23:02, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 21:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• "according to the publisher's note for The Castle": I took this out, re the Bodleian, as it does not seem necessary for this intext attribution. But if I am missing something, please let me know.

OK PumpkinSky talk 23:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• "The text for The Trial was later acquired through auction...": As written, it looks like this was acquired by the Bodleian, but the storage of the text in Germany suggests otherwise. Who acquired it?

See this, bottom of the page, first para under "Resources" PumpkinSky talk 23:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's vague! If anything else is available, I'd suggest using that to make this more precise, but nothing can be done using that source. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:36, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "This site is continuously building the repository.": Ref?

Cut, all such places are always trying to increase their holdings. PumpkinSky talk 23:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• "which are believed to number in the thousands": By who? Can't find this in the ref. Also, "Only Eva was still alive as of 2012." needs a ref; it cannot come from a 2010 article.

Ah, the Eva 2012 thing was in a ref from NPR that got cut for some reason as unneeded, but now we need again so I've put it back in. Jewish Chronicle has this info too, but it was written by a university student, so I went with NPR. Added ref on the "thousands" thing. Hmm. PumpkinSky talk 23:34, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 21:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

More queries

• "They point out that reading his work while focusing on the futility of his characters' struggles reveals Kafka's play at humor; he is not necessarily commenting on his own problems, but rather pointing out how people tend to invent problems.": Try as I might, I'm afraid I cannot make sense of this sentence.

That was there before we started on the article. Methinks they are saying that while authors tend to model characters after themselves, here K isn't, he's saying the characters make their own, without K inserting himself into the character. Rahn says " Franz Kafka saw the individual as being caught up in systems and bureaucracies that were beyond understanding. Even existence becomes a kind of control over personal autonomy. The natural response to this is to resign from life, but Kafka presents the situation with dry humor. He approaches the inherent terror of existence with a wink and a nod, and embraces the absurdity of everything." Yea, this article piece is hard to wrap your head around. If you can reword please do so. If not, should we ditch this piece? PumpkinSky talk 21:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

If it is important, I suppose it's best kept as it is (I'm afraid my head hurts just trying to think of a way to reword it!). My preference if at all possible would be to cut it, but I'll leave that one to you.

• Please check the "Critical interpretations" section; I found this part hard going, and as my background is not literary criticism, please check I've not inadvertently changed anything.

Looks good. Many thanks. PumpkinSky talk 21:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 20:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

• "A 1941 edition, including a homage by Thomas Mann, spurred a surge in Kafka's popularity in the United States the late-1940s.": Ref?

Added. PumpkinSky talk 21:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

• "included the deleted text translated by Eithne Wilkins and Ernst Kaiser": Have I missed something? What deleted text?

Recall the part about how K left works incomplete, out of order, Brod completing some works, etc? Because of this publishers, usually the earlier ones, left out parts of his works (maybe they couldn't figure out what to do with it). As time went on people started putting the left out parts back in, publishing them as K left the works, etc. Ref added.PumpkinSky talk 21:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Added a phrase to explain this as I"m not sure it was clear. Please check it's OK and covered by the ref. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "based on the recompiled German text": What recompiled text? Recompiled how?

See answer just above this one. Also take a quick look at Malcolm Pasley, which is linked in this Kafka article prior to this point in "Modern editions" section. PumpkinSky talk 21:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, should be fine now. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "that being the finalizing meaning and focus": This loses me as well, I'm afraid.

Yea, this may be harder to grasp if you never studied Deutsch. In German sentences can be constructed so that you can't be sure of the point the writer of the sentence is trying to make until you get to the very last word. The effect thereof can be quite dramatic. PumpkinSky talk 21:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks OK in that case, and forgive my linguistic ignorance! Doesn't need anything else. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "Kafka had no intention of labeling Gregor, the protagonist of the story, as any specific thing, but instead wanted to convey Gregor's disgust at his transformation.": Do we have a ref for this?

Sokel and Luke, esp footnote 1 in Luke. K often used ambiguity. Added. PumpkinSky talk 21:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 21:09, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

• As above, can someone check I've not messed up "Kafkaesque"?

Looks good to me PumpkinSky talk 17:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• I think I'd ideally like a little more on the history of the museum to smooth it out; i.e. who began it, where was the exhibition in Barcelona and NY, who runs it, etc. Ditto more about the prize. I think this section is a little abrupt and listy; it needs more explanation.

Doesn't say who founded it or where it was in Barcelona. Think I got the rest, museum and prize. PumpkinSky talk 17:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• "who want to help solve a literary mystery": This makes little sense here, and perhaps should be cut. What mystery? (I've checked the source, and I think this belongs earlier on when the search is mentioned).

cut PumpkinSky talk 17:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 13:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• Final point for now: the lead does not seem to cover all the main points of the article. I'm not sure I'd put kafkaesque in the first paragraph, and I think it needs more on critical analysis. However, I'm really dreadful at writing leads myself so cannot really offer too much help in saying what should go in! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Lead looking good now. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:24, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Final queries

• Franz Kafka#Family - a few more things to check:
  • In all Czech or German sources known to me, there's only the name Jakob Kafka, spelled with a "k". "Jacob" with a "c" is apparently only used in English (online) sources.
  • What is the source of Jakob (or Jacob?!) Löwy being "a prosperous brewer in Poděbrady"? In Northey's "Kafkas Mischpoche" (ISBN 3 80315106 6, Verlag Klaus Wagenbach, Berlin, 1988) - and in similar words in its Czech translation "Mišpoche Franze Kafky" - there is:

"[Julie Kafka-Löwy's] father Jacob [Löwy] (1826–1910), who originated from Humpoletz, and who founded a cloth goods store in […] Podiebrad in 1860 […]. The family moved to [Prague] in the 1870s, where he ran a hops store.[7]"

The source for [7] is listed as: "Allgemeines Adressbuch der Königl. Hauptstadt Prag, der Vorstädte Karolinenthal, etc. (Prag, Verlag der Bohemia, 1875), [page] 105."

Lou Kash (talk) 11:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC), edited Lou Kash (talk) 11:43, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Fixed these except the brewery thing which was already in the article and the ref pages are not online and I don't have a copy. It probably comes from the hops ref as hops is used to make beer.PumpkinSky talk

I know what hops is being used for; I'm Czech, remember? :) Anyway… then it would be likely a better idea to keep it either neutral as "entrepreneur" or "businessman" or whatever, or to change it to what Northey actually says for sure. Northey doesn't mention a brewery in this context anywhere. (FK's uncle Rudolf Löwy later used to work in a brewery in Prague-Košíře, owned by another cousin of the latter, Alexander Lanner née Löwy, which might also explain why the old Jakob Löwy may have gotten into the hops business after moving to Prague. Page 92 in the Czech version of Mischpoche; page 74 in the German version which omits to mention Lanner altogether though.) Lou Kash (talk) 02:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Changed to hops.PumpkinSky talk 09:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Uh, wait… :) "hops dealer" yes, but obviously after Jakob Löwy moved to Prague in the 1870s as evidenced by the aforementioned Adressbuch 1875. Not in Poděbrady yet. According to the more detailed (and likely updated) Czech version of Mischpoche, in Poděbrady the Löwy family had the cloth goods store which was brought in as dowry by Jakob Löwy's 1st wife Esther. The source for this statement is: "A two-page list written by Julie Kafka probably in early [1930s], stored in Fond A: Kafka/Zylberberg, Handschriften-Abteilung/Deutsches Literaturarchiv/Schiller-Nationalmuseum Marbach". (This source is missing in the older German issue 1988) Lou Kash (talk) 12:57, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• "was described as a "huge, selfish, overbearing businessman"[1]": Described by who?

Professor Corngold, added. PumpkinSky talk 22:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Unless I missed it, it does not say what his father's profession was. He had a business, but doing what?

it says "ritual slaughterer" and "goods retailer"PumpkinSky talk 20:22, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see. But in that case, the text is ambiguous, as I read that to be about Hermann's father, the subject of the previous sentence. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Oops. Will fix later. PumpkinSky talk 20:47, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Seems fine now, and I see that I may actually have been the one to mess this up in the first place so I do apologise!!! Sarastro1 (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Fixed PumpkinSky talk 22:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Four times annually to the synagogue; presumably for special occasions (pardon my ignorance!), and so worth spelling out why if it can be done so concisely.

It says four times, not which Jewish holidays. Apparently he wasn't very devout--"never enjoyed attending the synagogue".PumpkinSky talk 20:22, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, although a shame. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• "admitted to the rigorous classics-oriented state Gymnasium, Altstädter Deutsches Gymnasium, an academic secondary school at Old Town Square": Thinking about this one, given that Gymnasium is linked, do we need to say that it was an academic secondary school, or could that phrase be cut?

I'd leave it as non-Germans will think of "physical education"PumpkinSky talk 23:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Kafka showed a positive attitude at first, dedicating much of his free time to the business": This implies that this was not always the case. Worth elaboration?

He'd started writing in his spare time around 1907-1908, so by spending free time working he was now cutting into his writing time. Can you work that in?PumpkinSky talk 23:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Not quite what I was getting at: saying "at first" suggests that he later became less "positive". If he simply became a bit hacked off that he had less time to write, that explains why he became less positive, but what did he do? Did he stop helping, or just grumble a lot? I've gone for adding "but later resented how this work encroached on his writing time". Feel free to revert if this is not the case. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• Feel free to disagree, but on re-reading, the long quote on Felice Bauer (but not the rest of the paragraph) seems to be too long. Does she warrant such weight here, in a single quote? But as I say, my opinion only.

Hmmm...let's see what a third person says. PumpkinSky talk 23:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

This came up in the peer review:

"The extract from Kafka's diary describing Felice is a little too long for a summary encyclopedia biography. It could easily be trimmed without losing its effect." and I answered "I thought that it serves three purposes at the same time: let him speak himself once in this article, and describe the women to whom he was engaged twice, and his way of looking at her/people", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

No problem, and not a big deal to me so I have no great objection if others also want it to stay. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• "He kept diaries and "Oktavhefte"": What are Oktavhefte?

octavo, oktavhefte should have been in italics, fixed.PumpkinSky talk 23:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Some sources have claimed that Kafka possessed a schizoid personality disorder": Who? I think this needs stating explicitly.

Pérez-Álvarez, addedPumpkinSky talk 23:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Maybe an MOS expert can remind me if 90% should be written as 90 per cent. I'm never sure!

It says 3% and three percent ok, but not 3 %. PumpkinSky talk 23:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• Another question which occurred to me: what happened to his family? Did they see his fame grow? How did they react? How did they respond to the publication of his work against his wishes?

Look at the dates of death of his sisters, all perished in the Holocaust. Should this be explicit? I've not see death dates of his parents. As little was published prior to WWII, they would have see little or none of his fame. PumpkinSky talk 23:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

No, it's fine as it is if they did not really see his fame. And if nothing else covers this, the article doesn't need to. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Nothing else stands out from another reading of the article. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:59, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Some post-Peer Review comments

I have given the article a further read-through and made a number of minor alterations along the way (see article's edit history for details). As the peer review is now closed, I will leave my final comments here.

• "He and his close friends Max Brod and Felix Weltsch were called Der enge Prager Kreis, "The Close-knit Prague Circle". Who called them this? Neither Kafka nor his friends were in the public eye at this stage, so I imagine this was more by way of a private "joke".

Nein, Herr Boulton. See this, which I haven't used as a ref and on page 71 of Hawes he says "...the "Prague Circle" of writers that is known throughout German-speaking culture". Suggested wording for article? PumpkinSky talk 23:41, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

The Keren article refers to "Der Prager Kreis", not "Der enge Prager Kreis". Aside from that, it appears that the name was coined, by Brod, years after Kafka's death and after he had achieved recognition. The sentence should reflect this, e.g. "Years later, Brod coined the term Der enge Prager Kreis, "The Close-knit Prague Circle", to describe the group of writers which included himself, Kafka and Felix Weltsch". Brianboulton (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Some refs say Der enge Prager Kreis, some Der Prager Kreis, with enge being "close/close-knit". I have no doubt both were used. You do make a valid point, so I've changed it and added the ref since it's a reputable journal. I've also dropped "-knit" as it is the less common usage, apparently. PumpkinSky talk 22:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• The article uses American spellings, but British date formats. Should there not be consistency?

Dates are consistent and spelling is consistent. I don't view those dates as "British", just different.PumpkinSky talk 23:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• You say that the first line of Metamorphosis is "one of the most well-known first lines ever written". I'm sorry, but this seems a gross overstatement. I doubt that more than a tiny percentage of English language readers, even among the fairly well-read, could actually quote it (unlike the opening lines of, as examples, Pride and Prejudice, Moby Dick or A Christmas Carol). I suggest you modify your statement somewhat.

I didn't say that, Professor Delahoyde said that, see ref. Should I say "According to Michael Delahoyde,...."?

PumpkinSky talk 23:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Modify it as you wish, but don't leave the statement open to challenge. All such statements should be fully attributed. Brianboulton (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

So changed. PumpkinSky talk 22:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• A small point: it is not clear who acquired the text of The Trial at auction

It doesn't say, just sold in London at auction and sent to Marbach.PumpkinSky talk 23:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• The table of "selected" works influenced by Kafka may be subject to POV accusations, as it's not clear why these selections were made, or who made them.

Some were there when we started, I added some, maybe Gerda did too. My goal was a wide variety. We can't list all, that's why is says "selected". This variety shows his influence is wide, outside of literature circles. Should we tweak the intro?PumpkinSky talk 23:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

"The following are examples of works across a range of literary, musical and dramatic genres which demonstrate the extent of cultural influence". Brianboulton (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

So changed. PumpkinSky talk 22:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

• I repeat my concern, expressed earlier, about the extent of the Further reading section which, I believe, should at most consist of a handful of titles of the more important texts that did not figure in the citations.

Cut some ext links and 2.3K worth of further reading.PumpkinSky talk 23:10, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

That's it, I think. Brianboulton (talk) 21:34, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

CORE Competition

Just noting the work on this article took 2nd placed in this year's CORE competition. See User_talk:PumpkinSky#Core_Contest!, User_talk:Gerda Arendt#Core_Contest!, and Wikipedia:The Core Contest/Winners.PumpkinSky talk 22:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

"Metamorphosis" first line

Sorry to butt in but the "one of the most well-known first lines ever written" attribution, I think, is a little shaky because the author doesn't actually seem to specialize in modernism or 20th century literature. [5]. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:44, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I have poked around on this issue and there does seem to be support for it. I'm still looking for a really good ref though. Do you disagree or agree with this guy, TK?PumpkinSky talk 23:54, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Here it's listed as #1, but it's not a RS. Just interesting.PumpkinSky talk 00:33, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

How about this from Oxford University Press? PumpkinSky talk 00:01, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

My opinion is irrelevant because I'm not a source; what's important is to follow the sources (personally I think "Call me Ishamael" is a very memorable first line). I wouldn't use the OUP catalogue blurb because it's just that - a blurb - and hard to attribute. It's best to follow the sources for these things - see, for instance, what Harold Bloom has to say [6] or other well-known critics. Brian is correct that the statement needs attribution and in my view it needs attribution to a specialist in 20th century literature. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:19, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Yea, guess I didn't word that well. Good find. I found two refs by Bloom but not that one. This one doesn't say anything like "the metamorphosis' first sentence is one of the most memorable in literature", but it does support something like "...is crucial to the setting and understanding of the entire story". Stach talks about the metamorphosis a lot but says essentially nothing, that I've found, about the first sentence.PumpkinSky talk 19:06, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't find the quality ref we need for that, so I've cut that statement and ref. If we find one we can always put it back in. I have put in a piece from the Bloom book, into a different section. PumpkinSky talk 19:32, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Various notes from Reiner Stach

These are from Stach's The Decisive Years and might be of future use:

• pp. 6-7, the overwhelming volume and breadth of info available on Kafka
• p. 8, mentions the Czech biographer Northey, which User:Lou Kash told me about.

Well, Northey is actually American: born 1942 in Washington, grew up in Germany and Austria, studied in Montreal, Munich, Kingston, teaches Germanistik (that's why he's written "Mischpoche" directly in German) since 1970 at Acadia University in Wolfsville, Canada. (short bio from "Mischpoche") Lou Kash (talk) 22:59, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

• p. 17, Kafka was at least a head taller than Brod
• pp. 20-24, crowded noisy family apt, own bedroom, perpetual canaries, very punctual, family lived for the fancy goods store
• pp. 26-28, promotions and etc at the Worker's Accident Insurance Institute
• pp. 60-62, zionism at university, p. 61 has British Uganda Programme "The Uganda Proposal"

PumpkinSky talk 20:27, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

The Diaries of Franz Kafka

Published in 1964, I have the Peregrine Book edition open in front of me. It is a substantial text of about 500 pages, which was edited by Max Brod. I bought it for 18 shillings and sixpence (about £0.92 in 1968) but it is still available from Amazon UK for £8.95. It is personal record of Kafka's life from 1910–1923, and is one of my favourite books. It was first published in the US in 1948, by Schocken Books Inc and in the UK by Secker & Warburg, in the same year. It contains a wealth of information, including recollections of his dreams, and the early fragments of In the Penal Colony and his Travel Diaries. On page 269, Kafka writes, "I find the letter K offensive, almost disgusting, and yet I use it; it must be very characteristic of me". Do we need to give his diaries more weight?

Also, Ronald Gray's, "Kafka: a collection of critical essays" published by Prentice Hall, in 1962, has essays on Kafka by Edwin Muir and Albert Camus among other notable writers, translators and critics. This, at least, should be included in Further Reading. Graham Colm (talk) 23:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should put more on the diaries in the body as we have some mention of it and we strive for secondary sources. But I agree that and the essays book should be in further reading. Please add them in the existing format as the others or if you prefer put the info here and I'll add them in. FYI everyone, I have hard copies of the Hawes, Brod, and Stach books. PumpkinSky talk 17:42, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

As discussed: Gray, Ronald (1962). Kafka: A collection of critical essays. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall. ISBN 1199778303. Graham Colm (talk) 18:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Done. Do you want to have the diary book added?PumpkinSky talk 18:20, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes please:

Brod, Max; Kafka, Franz (1988). The diaries, 1910-1923. New York: Schocken Books. ISBN 0-8052-0906-9.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Graham Colm (talk) 18:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Done. PumpkinSky talk 19:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

"blood brothers"

"Kafka considered Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Flaubert, Franz Grillparzer, and Heinrich von Kleist to be his "true blood brothers".

These men were not related to him by birth so is the second explanation in blood brother - that he swore a loyalty oath to them (and perhaps mingled blood)? Or is this meant in a metaphorical sense? MathewTownsend (talk) 18:01, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

I saw nothing about an actual loyalty oath, so it'd have to be in a metaphorical sense. PumpkinSky talk 18:04, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

well, why is it in quotes? Who used the phrase? Kafka? (Since translation from German is such an issue, I wonder if you should link it or what is meant by the link and the quotes. Apparently German can't be translated literally into English, as say French or Spanish can pretty much?) MathewTownsend (talk) 19:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

It's in quotes on both pages of the ref. And in Stach's bio, it's in quotes on page 362--there translated as "blood relation". I've added Stach as a ref. So I'd say Kafka said it. I think this was already in the article when Gerda and I started working on it. PumpkinSky talk 19:43, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Points to clarify

PumpkinSky posted to my page that this is at FAC and as the FAC is quite busy I'll post here a few comments (there are more, but this is a start):

Lead

• First sentence > "one of the greatest authors" in the first sentence makes me a little nervous. Might need to be qualified

Covered in the body.PumpkinSky talk 22:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Still controversial. Have a look at Ernest Hemingway who was equally influential. I suggest toning it down a bit. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

changed to "most influential" PumpkinSky talk 01:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Second sentence > "heavily influenced ... existentialism". If I remember correctly it was the opposite; he was heavily influenced by existentialists, in particular Kierkegaard (but I think that needs some more research). Re modernism > that too at some point needs to be put into context in regards to who the modernists were and their particular style of writing.

Covered in the body, see writers like Camus he heavily influenced.PumpkinSky talk 22:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Kierkegaard isn't mentioned. Kafka didn't just wake up one day and say, "oh, I'm an existentialist." He was influenced, somehow at some point, to the extent that it became part of his writing to a large degree which then influenced Sartre, etc. Context needs to be provided. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Family

• The ritual slaughterer makes me wonder whether we know if the family was kosher; I'd suspect yes, and perhaps that might explain his vegetarianism. I'd like to see some digging on this facet. A fully kosher household keeps separate cookware and dishes for fleisch (meat) dishes and for milch (dairy based) dishes.

See FAC about this (many comments moved to talk page) PumpkinSky talk 22:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a book and an article about his relationship with food, his relationship with flesh (goes to the issue of women, vegetarianism, etc.,) which is important because this is guy who wrote "The Hunger Artist". As above, the context is important. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Fichter devotes pages to this. I need time to digest it.PumpkinSky talk 22:27, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Did he live with his family his entire life? Did he ever move away from his family?

Most of it. At least til age 30 PumpkinSky talk 22:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Has this been added? Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Just added with a paragragh. he was age 31 when he moved out but that lasted 4 years or so til he had to live in sanatoriums.PumpkinSky talk 23:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Was he expected to work at the family business?

• his father's: we don't know, it seems not the kind of business that needs a trained lawyer, - his brother in law's: yes, mentioned that he worked there Gerda Arendt (talk)

In his younger years he did, later no. Added cite from Stach. PumpkinSky talk 22:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Does is say he worked for the family business? Has to do with patriarchal father relationship. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Dad wanted him to help out at and take over the fancy goods store. Added, from Stach. PumpkinSky talk 22:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• The Family section is messed up again - obviously it happened during the edits on 21 October 2012. I have corrected the two worst errors today, where Jacob "miraculously" reappeared instead of Hermann. Still needs some work though. Also some of the Northey references now point to incorrect book pages. I'll get back to it in a few days. Lou Kash (talk) 03:37, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

• I believe it happened because of questions here and [7], but thanks for putting it to rights. I noticed the references in that section were wrong. Truthkeeper (talk) 03:48, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

• I see. The whole section now needs some "reconstruction", I guess. Zu viele Köche verderben den Brei, as they say in Germany. :)

Useful reference which everyone should keep open in an additional browser window while working with FK's family: http://www.franzkafka.de/sixcms/media.php/539/Stammbaum%20Northey02.jpg (Fanni Klein - FK's cousin - was my great-grandmother, by the way. That's why I have quite an "insider knowledge" about the Osek/Strakonice branch of the family.) Lou Kash (talk) 04:00, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Employment

• He worked for the Workers Accident Insurance from 1908 until (I believe) 1915 when he was released (due to ill health?) on a pension. The job was considered part time - the hours were from 8 to 2, allowing him time to write - which should be mentioned. I have a source somewhere for this information.

• please add Gerda Arendt (talk)

In Stach for being off at 2pm. Added cite from Stach. As to the year ending at insurance, see FAC comments again.PumpkinSky talk 22:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• see this pdf (am happy to send it on). It should be used. He worked for the insurance company until 1918 after which he received a pension. He contracted TB in 1917 and spent the rest of his life in sanatariums. This is when the bulk of his writing was done. Should be added. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Have sent you an email so you can send to me. Thanks.PumpkinSky talk 20:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Added several bits from Steinhauer. Very interesting.PumpkinSky talk 19:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Will look later. It is an interesting article and easy to read. A lot about his style, if I remember correctly. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Private life

• I'd like to see another source than Brod (his friend) for the "tortured by sexual desire". It seems an odd way to begin a section. That he was engaged three times and went to brothels is not all that unusual for a man who lived to be 40. If he was truly overwhelmed by sexual desire, it will be apparent in other sources. But the explanation might also be that he didn't feel comfortable with women.

• This needs to be resolved. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• This is well covered on Stach, will be looking that up for the pages, starting now. PumpkinSky talk 20:21, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Good glad to hear it. My issue is this, and I know it feels that I'm picking on you but I'm not. These are things that need to be resolved and added to a page before it goes to FAC, not later. If we waited to resolve issues, lots of pages could be brought to FAC and pass now. That's all I'm trying to say in terms of comprehensiveness. Will pull the file and send on. Give me a bit, please. Also before I do that, might not be a bad idea to browse to see if there are others you might want. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Stach talks of K's sex life on dozens of pages. I don't yet see the word "tortured" but he does say "incessant womanizing". In essence, both Brod and Stach say that K was a tomcat that couldn't keep his pants on. PumpkinSky talk 20:53, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Added more about that. Geez, we could write an FA just on Franz Kafka was a tomcat.PumpkinSky talk 21:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Thing is there's more to it than that. It has to do with meat. It has to do with fear of sex and meat and yet the attraction. It has to do with starving himself. And ultimately it makes its way into his writing. None of this is OR; it's all in sources. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Julie Wohryyzek is misspelled > should be with one less "y" (Wohryzek) and a g-books search does give information about her. She is important because his father objected to her, made Kafka break his engagement to her, thus creating the impetus for the letter to the father. This information should be added. Also, probably not a good idea to say that Stach merely mentions her without more information because I suspect the information is in the later volumes of his multi-volume biography. It is fine to say that Stach merely mentions her in the first volume (or the title of the first volume)

• Name corrected Gerda Arendt (talk)

On some pages in Hawes. Added info.PumpkinSky talk 23:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Much information about her is available. That the break up with her, caused by his father, resulted in a long and important auto-biographical piece of work should be added because it's important. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Misc

• An edit was recently reverted (sorry haven't searched for it) about Kafka's involvement with mysticism. I think this is important information for the following reasons: 1., many/most of the modernists to some degree were involved with mysticism (notably Yeats and to a lesser degree Pound); 2., an entire book published by the Oxford University Press has been published on the subject so it should get a mention; 3., to some extent goes to my questions above in regards to a kosher household, vegetarianism > a logical step would be to become interested in the kabbalah (way out of my area of expertise here, but have some idea of what this is about).

• This is important and the book is a good source. Much about his attitude to flesh, eating, that he lived an aesthetic life, etc. Needs to be added. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• I have to trawl through history and find this edit because the source used supports (from a different point of view) some of what Fichter has to say. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:32, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Erzahlung

• "Erzahlung" (sorry left out the umlaut). I looked up "erzahlung" in my Langenscheid's dictionary: though it's to narrate, that's a literal translation, less literal would be to tell a tale. Langensheid's also translates erzahlung as a short story, fwiw. Somewhere I read that short stories didn't yet exist as a genre, but in fact see Dickens and others in England, Mark Twain and others in the US, Chekhov and others in Russia, all writing short stories earlier than Kafka. As a genre it began in the later 1700s to early 1800s. Erzahling is interesting because what Kafka did was write "tales": parables, etc. This needs to be pinned down with good sources. Currently the sentence about erzahlung is sourced to Pawel (1985) and I can't actually find that information there, so maybe something got shoved around by mistake. This has some information in regards to the degree that his writing style is similar to Kleist's and is good in regards to giving a good a description of the writing style that imo deserves a mention (unfortunately not all the pages are viewable).

• Erzählung (without a specific source) or Geschichte are subtitles of some stories. Should we give an example. I guess that I had too narrow a perspective of short story, thanks for the background. --21:15, 11 October 2012 (UTC)~~

• Has the referencing issue been resolved here? Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Back on duty: the ref about Kleist and Kafka is very interesting, added. I wonder to what extent details should appear in the article. I started with one sentence, which could easily grow in a paragraph if wanted. - Wording about Erzählung/Geschichte changed. Please help me to understand: the German Wikipedia has "Die Erzählungen" as a header, without a link, but if you link you get to Narrative, while the German equivalent to "short story" is "Kurzgeschichte", a word mentioned once in the German article, for "Das Urteil". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:34, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hi Gerda. I think that you have enough room on this page to add quite a bit - the Kleist source is interesting. Today at the library I picked up yet another (very fat!) biography. The question about the short story/narrative/Erzählung is a good question. If you don't mind I'd like to dig around a bit. One thing though is that the Steinhauer piece I sent on to PumkpinSky describes much of Kafka's writing as a parable/tale rather than a "short story" with a plot. In that sense I'd use the word Erzählung - but would like to see what the source says. I couldn't find it in Pawel. We might need to look elsewhere, or rework that section. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• I will add to Kleist tomorrow then. Plot vs. parable sounds good, we appreciate your thoughts/additions. Tale is another good translation that didn't come to my mind, thank you, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• Interestingly for Brothers Grimm the English language sources prefer the word "tale" or "folktale" - the word I used there - to fairy tale which in German is Märchen. But that's another word that's tricky to translate. I think tale is a good word to use, but when I get a chance I might pull more references in regards to his genre which is tricky to pin down. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• Added a bit more, this time at the beginning of Works. I am not happy with the translations in this source, for example "Todesfurcht" mentions death, terror is too little, in "eigentlichen Blutwerwandten", "true" seems wrong, it should say that these writers are more his blood relations than father and sister, - what do you think? The phrase by phrase comparison of a work by Kleist to "Das Urteil" is interesting, and says a lot about the latter, but I think there's a link, interested readers will find it, it seems too detailed for others. Thoughts? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• I noticed this too. I would say frightened to death (furcht = fright; Todes = death). As for the other, I can see why "true" was used. "Genuine", "real", "actual" are other words that come to mind. Yes, some of it is too detailed and probably better in one of the subpages. I do think this section would be better if it were summarized even more, shrunk down a bit, and maybe placed in the life section with the other bit about Kleist and influences? Not sure it works where it is. Thinking. I'll be return to tweak it a bit. Adding: I tightened and moved it around a bit. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• I commented out lot of text here because I can't find these points in Pawel on those pages. Also I wanted to fix the ISBN for Pawel because it doesn't work but can't find an edition published by Vingtage [8]. If possible, when I have time, I'll try to find sources to reword and add back the section. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Betrachtung

• "Betrachtung" > these were first published as 8 small pieces, none more that 200 words long, in the first edition of the Hyperion. He later added to the collection and it was published with the same title, as a book. Hemingway did something similar and equally complicated ("in out time" vs. In Our Time (book) ) - this needs a little more explanation.

• I think this is in, with the exception of "none more that 200 words long". Gerda Arendt (talk)

• Detail in regards to this to be found in the jstor file linked above. That's one of 300 available on jstor. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

General

Finally some general comments: I'm not crazy about the structure; the in-text table at the end (better to trim and prosify) and the lack of information in the critical analysis section. I'll repeat what I said in the peer review: I believe the article needs better sourcing to bring all the pieces together. I'd be happy to help find sources - either English language or German language, though I'm not around much these days. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:25, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• (ec, hope I didn't miss things) I added some comments to "my corners", for a start. Thanks for some interesting ideas, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:12, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I've added multiple Stach refs (BTW, great book) and other better sources. Don't agree about the table.PumpkinSky talk 23:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• Adding Stach is a good start but there are other biographers as well and each brings a separate perspective which is how to balance a biography like this. Furthermore, the criticism can't rely on newspapers and other authors. It should rely Kafka scholarship. I will read through carefully and make more notes: these are from a cursory look. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• It's looking good PS. In general the scholarly sources tend to be informative, and what I see is that gaps are being closed that needed closing. I'll swing through here again in a few days and tweak a bit, and let me know if you find anything else that you might need. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Off topic

off topic
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
NoteTruthkeeper's talk page says she went on long wiki break. posted a few hours ago.PumpkinSky talk 09:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC) Doesn't mean the points above aren't relevant or that they've been resolved. I'm trying to decide whether to post to the FAC or not. Whether to keep editing or to walk away altogether. But the bottom line is that there are issues with comprehensiveness and sourcing that need work. Regardless of my status. Truthkeeper (talk) 14:12, 12 October 2012 (UTC) Glad to see you back! Nobody said your points are not relevant, as you can see from the comments above. Please note - said on the FAC - that both PumpkinSky and I are busy this weekend, it's not ignoring (you ad others), just lack of time, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC) Hi Gerda, per your edit summary "patience" I just want to clarify that I'm not asking for any sort of immediate action. I'm well-aware of the amount of work that's gone into the page and how difficult the work is. I simply thought it odd that PumpkinSky posted my "status" at a time when I myself am unsure whether to go or to leave. But my status should have no weight in terms of the comments I make imo. That's all I wanted to make clear. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:58, 12 October 2012 (UTC) At the time your talk page only "long wikibreak". How are we to know anything more? Whether I'm here or not - because of RL issues I don't know from day to day right now whether I can be here or not - has nothing to do with these comments, unless you think it does? I'm a little unclear why it's an issue. Truthkeeper (talk) 01:26, 13 October 2012 (UTC) Welcome back, I'm glad to see that you haven't actually retired. It seems to me that PumpkinSky's post about your status was an expression of disappointment that he would not get more assistance from you. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC) Yes indeed. You know a lot about this topic and when you comment, and we respond, and then say you go on a long wikibreak, it appears we won't be able to resolve things to make the article better because we've lost your input. PumpkinSky talk 11:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Slow load time

It's taking more than 30 seconds to load for each small edit; sometimes as long as a minute. Any ideas why? Could it be the profusion of templates? Truthkeeper (talk) 22:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

It happens to me, too, with increasing frequency. I thought it was my duff laptop, but maybe not. Brianboulton (talk) 00:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Could be the wiki servers are overloaded. The article size is not out of the norm for a FA on a very notable person.PumpkinSky talk 00:26, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I have a brand new machine and can go to another page while waiting for this to load and made edits, save, and it's still loading. Something's up. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

How big is the other page? PumpkinSky talk 01:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Kafka stories

Stories: I don't want to revert your (Truthkeeper, moved here from talk) commenting out. The first line, "prolific writer", is just looking at the amount of his stories, does it need a source. "Erzählung" is what the German WP says in articles about his stories, how can it be mentioned? "Geschichte": please look at the front page of Das Urteil. - My time will be very limited this month, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

The section I commented out in this edit is: "Kafka was a prolific writer of short stories. Some of his published texts were named Erzählung (literally: narrative), others Geschichte (literally: story). Some stories are relatively long; others are a single paragraph. His oldest surviving story is "Der Unredliche in seinem Herzen" ("The Impure in His Heart"), translated as "Shamefaced Lanky and Impure in Heart". It was not published but was part of a letter to his friend Oskar Pollak in 1902." I commented out these sentences because they are not in the source cited (Pawel).

To answer your questions above: I noticed this particular section because of the use "prolific". I could be wrong, but not sure that Kafka is considered particularly prolific (though the amount of work burned and the work still unpublished makes it murky). Hemingway had 49 stories published less than 15 years after he began to be published, yet even he is not considered a prolific author. So, because it's a statement that can be disputed, it needs to be cited by a reliable source. Until one is found, I decided to leave it commented out.

Regarding "Erzählung", I had not realized that was from the German WP (which is not a reliable source) and thought it was a specific genre for which I've been trying to find a reliable source. In fact, it's simply a translation of the German WP and makes our conversation above moot. In my view the term to use here should simply be short story.

File:Kafka Das Urteil 1916.jpg says on the title that it's a Geschichte - again translated to story. But, if as the commented out section claims, it's long, then that needs to put into context and perhaps, if the sources were to support it, called a novella. I don't know. But I do know the section isn't in Pawel. I'm sorry to have had to comment it out, but this material needs to be researched and properly sourced before it's reinstated. A similar occurrence is in this edit where I removed material to properly represent the source. Hopefully all these will be added back with time and appropriate referencing. Thanks. Truthkeeper (talk) 16:16, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

A few comments to good thoughts I had no time to even see until now:

prolific - please help with the wording - what I tried to say was that he wrote more stories than other genres, could you word that please?

The German Wikipedia is no source, but in German there is the genre "Erzählung" in which many of his works fall. It is different from novella, - could you word that please? I think we don't need a source for the fact that Kafka wrote Erzählungen (stories) - as we don't need one for the fact that Mozart wrote piano sonatas. But I may be wrong ;)

"Das Urteil" is published as "Geschichte", as the title page shows, that should be translated to story for the English reader, - how? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:46, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Source spotchecks

I'm going to check a couple of sources per issues raised above by TK, just to double check. I can only check the free sources, so I'll be limited to a lot of the supplementary material. I will be working with this revision.

• FN 102: All four cites check out.

• FN 152: This all checks out. It blurs the timeline a little (source has 1927-1929, 1935 instead of 1925-1935) but I don't think it's a problem because we're not differentiating between the novels and the collections (whereas the author is).

• FN 164: This all checks out, methinks.

• FN 165: This checks out.

• FN 197: Issues. I don't see "Man Who Disappeared" or 2004 in the cited article.

I'll try and do more later. University beckons. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:30, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

• This supports FN 197 better, although not entirely. Also, WorldCat gives translations of Amerika / The Man Who Disappeared dating back to 1996. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Adding what I've found before I exit from here:

• This material was not in the source (which I have at hand), [9]. I tagged it.
• From the edit above, Murray p. 367, is about burning work so added in: [10]
• Comment out a section [11] that wasn't in the source cited.

There are more, but earlier in history and I've cleaned them. I've only looked at a very few. I'm unwatching here now. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:11, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Request for help

Hi everyone, I don't master the English language well, so I cannot understand some words and phrases here. For example, is there anyone who can explain the phrase "triple dimension of Jewish existence in Prague..." (in section Judaism and Zionism for me? Thanks.Josephk (talk) 12:42, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Haven't a clue what that means. I'll check the source and get back to you. Truthkeeper (talk) 12:36, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

The quotation refers to the fact that in Kafka´s time Prague was a city of three etnicities- Czech, German and Jewish. During the WW II. the Germans killed nearly all the Jews and in turn were expelled by the Czechs when the war ended. --Georgius (talk) 10:55, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot.Josephk (talk) 16:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)