Talk:Frenzel maneuver

Nose pinch

16/03/2010 - Added the nose-pinch step, since it doesn't mention it in any other part of the article. Frenzel can't be done if you dont close your nose openings. -Alejandro Sastre —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.126.93.56 (talk) 17:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it works reasonably well without the nose pinch, once you have practised the technique. The important part is learning to use the muscles that open the Eustachian tubes, rather than trying to increase the pressure in the nose. It was originally taught to German dive bomber pilots who needed their hands free to operate the controls. --RexxS (talk) 19:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure it is still the Frenzel if the nose is not closed? I find if I dont close the nostrils the tubes will open but the increased pressure in the pharynx does not go anywhere. ( I use BTV normally, so my eustachians open very easily, and maybe not the best to test this) Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 07:35, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely sure. Herman Frenzel developed the technique for Luftwaffe pilots in dive bombers, and you don't take you hands off the controls in a high speed dive to clear your ears. Once the tubes are open, the pressures at each end will equalise without any effort to force air through, and I can only assume that the nose pinch has been added by later generations to assist diver trainees who can't easily open their tubes. --RexxS (talk) 09:19, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Then maybe the pilots used nose-clips. You can't do a Frenzel without increasing the pressure at the tube openings, and that means that if you were to leave the nostrils unblocked, the air would choose that way to escape. Nose-clip, mask, fingers, whatever works. It would be very instructive to show a photo of Stuka pilots during the attack, if one was ever made. Good point about keeping hands on the controls, but I'd look for a nose-clip there. Bansp (talk) 03:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, this change removes the reference to pinching the nose with the comment "checked sources, removing information not backed up there". Pretty ironic, given that already the first source mentions pinching the nose. Gonna revert that, assuming good will but poor performance, what else. Bansp (talk) 18:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

In performing an update, I have removed the sentence "This maneuver does not constrict the eustachian tubes, nor does it over-pressurize the middle or inner ear; it also leaves the hands free.". The part about free hands is clear. The statement about not constricting the tubes seems bland and spurious. Whereas the part about the maneuver not over-pressurizing the middle ear is simply not true, and leaving it might lead to people harming themselves and blaming that on Wikipedia: to be sure, you can harm yourself with the maneuver, and that's why, during training, you don't want to actually pinch the nose -- blocking the nostrils gently is enough (excess air can then escape). What is true is that the risk is lower in comparison with the Valsalva maneuver. Hmm, so let me go back there and add that. Bansp (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Final remark: the part "The maneuver can be done at any time during the respiratory cycle" is strange. You have to interrupt the cycle (even if briefly) in order to perform the technique, and the same is true of Valsalva, so I'm not sure what value this statement has. Bansp (talk) 18:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

In contrast to the Valsalva, which can be only be performed while exhaling, the Frenzel maneuver does not rely on air expiration to open the Eustachian tubes and provide increased pressure to the middle ear, so is independent of the stage of the breathing cycle. Surely that difference is noteworthy? --RexxS (talk) 19:09, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Surely not as formulated originally. Because the breathing cycle is interrupted for any of these manoeuvres, and you can go in any direction (inhale or exhale) after you've performed them (unless your lungs are completely empty or completely full, naturally, and unless you're freediving...). The mechanism in which the air acts on the tube openings is exactly the same in both cases. The source of the pressure is different. So no, thanks to your reply I actually have no doubt now that that sentence is useless and potentially misleading. A pedant would also pick on your first statement above: you don't exhale while performing Valsalva. If you were exhaling, you wouldn't be able to perform it (freedivers can perform Valsalva as well -- do they exhale while doing so?). Using a certain part of the respiratory tract as source of air pressure is not the same as exhaling. Bansp (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Can you actually do the Frenzel? I cannot by following the description in the article. This does not mean it can't be done, but it leaves me sceptical. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 16:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

The Valsalva maneuver uses the muscles that perform exhalation to increase the air pressure in the region of the Eustachian tubes and force the tubes open - this is quite capable of increasing the air pressure inside the middle ear above ambient and also increases the pressure inside the chest, with consequent effects on blood pressure. Neither of these is desirable when diving and that's why we try to teach gentler methods of clearing the ears. The Frenzel maneuver is one of these methods: it uses the tongue as a piston to drive a brief pressure wave into the back of the nose, which helps open the Eustachian tubes, allowing air to equalise between the back of the throat and the inner ear. You have to have unblocked Eustachian tubes for this to work, which is why diver trainees often take a while to master it. You also don't need a pinched nose to perform it as it is a dynamic maneuver that can be repeated as much as a couple of times a second if required to achieve equalisation. The transient nature of the pressure increase when using the Frenzel means there is little danger of over-pressurisation and subsequent harm. I can assure you I have no more need to pinch my nose to perform Frenzel than to blow up a balloon. --RexxS (talk) 18:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I use BTV, with great ease resulting from long practice, so have never needed to learn Frenzel as such, though I have been thinking about it a bit and wonder whether I don't occasionally do it without realising. If it is what I do on those occasions, then blocking the nose is totally irrelevant as it would make no difference to the effectiveness of the maneuver.

My query is directed to User:Bansp. I would like to know whether he/she is criticizing a description of a procedure that he/she can actually perform. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 06:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Another question. Is there a reference explaining the technique that is attributable to the original method taught by Frenzel? All I can find are descriptions by people who call their method the Frenzel maneuver, without any evidence that it actually is the method developed and taught by Frenzel. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 07:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi RexxS (not sure where to fit the reply). It looks like you're not using pure Frenzel, which is of course super from the point of view of efficiency. My guess is you're combining BTV (for opening the tubes or let's say loosening the openings) and possibly only need the mask to pressurize against, for the Frenzel. Could that be right? @Pbsouthwood: I've only seen attributions to Frenzel for the original method, and Fattah for introducing it to freedivers and developing it further (by combining it with the mouthfill technique). I've never seen any link to an original German source, like a manual for Stuka pilots. It would be wonderful to see something like that in the wiki sources. And one more thing -- this article isn't meant to be a manual for equalizing, is it. It's meant to describe what's going on, and that's not the same. And you're asking if I can perform the Frenzel -- not without blocking my nose. I do feel an action on my tubes just before I send the puff of air, but it's the compressed air that makes it go all the way. Still working on pure BTV underwater (on airplanes it's a non-issue even without the jaw movement, but there's the obvious difference in the relative difficulty). Regards, Bansp (talk) 11:12, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Not a Manual, but if one can do the thing by following the description, it makes the description more credible, particularly in the absence of a definitive reference. The other point here is whether RexxS is correct about the original procedure not requiring the nose to be blocked by an outside agency (fingers or mask or whatever). The comment about not taking your hand off the controls in a power dive seems reasonable. If this is the case, the description should reflect this. In that case, the modification would be blocking the nose. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 12:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's always a problem trying to differentiate between the mechanism of Frenzel and that of BTV since the result is the same, and I couldn't with all honesty say that I'm not also manipulating the muscles used in BTV when I perform Frenzel. If it's any help, I can do the tongue-piston action without a pinched nose out of the water and hear the slight noise of my Eustachian tubes opening. While repeating the action, I can then gently pinch or block my nose and feel my nostrils flare from the transient pressure increase. I'm pretty certain that when I perform a Frenzel, much of that pressure wave is lost through my nose, but it is still sufficient to allow my ears to clear. Of course, one could suggest that it's just BTV doing the work and I have no way of proving or disproving that. It would indeed be marvellous to find a primary source that described what Frenzel taught, but I suppose we'll have to make do with secondary sourcing in the meantime. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 16:47, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Gentlemen, would it help if this could be sourced on printed paper, such as the book by Pelizzari and Tovaglieri, where, on pp. 198ff of the English 2004 edition, they discuss the Frenzel maneuvre (under the name of Marcante-Odaglia technique; this BTW should influence the article that we're discussing) and mention that the nose has to be closed (by pinching or by the pressure of the mask)? Regards, Bansp (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

If you've found a reliable source that describes the Frenzel Maneuver, then use it to support the text you've contributed. I can see at Marcante-Odaglia technique that it's very much the same as Frenzel - especially when it says it can be executed rapidly and repeated continuously. I can still perform Frenzel without pinching my nostrils, but that doesn't matter as I'm not a reliable source. --RexxS (talk) 21:54, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I am not convinced that the Marcante-Odaglia technique is identical to the Frenzel Maneuver. The article on it: specifies it as a development, and WP is not citable on WP. A direct quote from the book might help. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 07:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

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