Talk:Genesis (band)

Genesis defunct?

Have Genesis ceased to exist? I'd think that they have not broken up. All I've seen so far are speculative sources saying this _may very well be_ the end for Genesis. And that London, 26 March 2022, may well have been their last live performance. But no interviews with band members who claim that Genesis is definitely over. I've even read Collins saying: "Never say never." Personally I'd think that an encyclopedia should not claim the band doesn't exist without citing reliable sources. I propose moving Banks, Collins and Rutherford back to "current members" and describing Genesis as "Genesis are", not "were". What do others think? Mark in wiki (talk) 10:28, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

They haven't definitively broken up yet, we need to wait for reliable sources to confirm they'll never work again. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:40, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree; much too premature. Firstly, many bands have decided at some point not to work further and have later changed their minds. Secondly, many bands have decided to stop playing live but have produced further studio work. Thirdly, even if a band stops working, its members will surely continue to receive royalties/income (from ongoing sales of recordings and merchandise) on the same basis as before unless and until they make new legal contractual arrangements on the basis that the band, as a working entity, has ceased to exist. Only an official announcement can be taken as a definitive change of status. {The poster formerly knownnas 87.81.230.195} 90.209.233.48 (talk) 16:35, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I sincerely hope my post here will not anger anybody. Please don’t be mean, I’m just speaking my 2 cents. It’s great that you guys love the band, as I do. But guys….Genesis have said quite plainly that the o2 Arena concert on March 26 2022 was their last ever concert. Phil Collins said so at the show, and Tony Banks said in the press that after the March 26 show, “That will be it.” Furthermore, Phil is obviously not a well man, as he has various physical ailments, including diabetes, and has to walk with a cane. He cannot drum anymore, and he could only sit in a chair and sing on this last Genesis tour (and on his last solo tour as well, while his son Nic played the drums). Phil is now, for all intents and purposes, retired. Also, Phil, Mike, and Tony are all in their early 70’s now, and there hasn’t been a new Genesis studio album in 25 years (the last one, Calling All Stations, which they did with Ray Wilson at the microphone, was in 1997). Why do you NEED an “official announcement” to be convinced that Genesis are done? They’ve made it quite clear already that they’re done. Like all diehard Genesis fans, of course I wish that the band would make more music and do more tours, but due to Phil’s poor health alone, they’re done. THEY’RE DONE. I strongly recommend that Wikipedia change Genesis back to “Genesis WERE an English band, etc.”. Judging by the evidence of the band members recent remarks, and, once again, Phil’s poor health, you can be sure there will be no more albums (apart from Greatest Hits collections I suppose), or tours. Genesis are done. Phil can’t do it anymore. Therefore, Genesis can’t do it anymore. They’re done. The chance of Genesis doing anything more, at this point, is zero. From this point on, just enjoy their music that you have in your collection and recall them as they were. AL90000 (talk) 20:49, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

We went through all this about ten years ago, where we all thought Genesis were done and never going to perform again. Then look what happened. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and there is no rush to update information as it's not a newspaper. Have a bit of patience and wait for reliable sources to document this. In the meantime, most of the band's 80s discography could do with being improved to good article status if you're looking for something to do. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:17, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

And that's why I wrote the hidden note between "Genesis" and "are", which reads "Please DO NOT CHANGE lead from "are" to "were", until there is proof of whether or not Genesis have "disbanded" beyond the conclusion of their Last Domino? Tour. Any disagreements should be taken to the talk page.", a few days ago. Based on that hidden note and what User:Ritchie333 just said, let's wait 'til something happens. MetalDiablo666 (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm posting this here as an additional note, because at this point in time, I'm not sure what we should still be waiting for. In an interview with Mike Rutherford from 9 March 2023 (two days ago) he clearly states that Genesis are completely done and over. (time from 1:52 to 2:34)

So, of course, we previously had Phil and Tony definitively state that Genesis were completely done performing live, which I can understand as of March 2022 it could have been considered premature to factually state in the main article that the band was completely done and over in all aspects (even if it was heavily implied that it was). Mike also reiterates in the interview that Genesis touring is completely over, though the important part I'm pointing out is that he goes further, when the host asks "Really, is it over? There's not a recording situation, there's nothing else in there?", to which Mike responds "No, it really is over."

I think it is very clear that this should be considered as an accepted "official announcement" of disbandment. If this is not the case, then I have to ask, in what form do we expect that official announcement to come? An official press release from the band/management? Is this logical to assume it will be announced in such as way, randomly over a year or more after the band's last show in March 2022? At this point and onward, can we realistically expect something as enough proof other than the words of the band members?

As a slightly different but similar example, with the band Rush, even though they played their last show in 2015, no one definitively said the band was over until Alex Lifeson said so in an interview in 2018. Once he did, Wikipedia accepted this as proof the band was over and updated the article accordingly citing his words. Was Wikipedia wrong or right in accepting the end of Rush after Alex's words in 2018? Because if so, the guidelines there should be applied here.

If what evidence we have is still not enough, with emphasis on Mike's words in that recent interview, I'd really like to know what forms of official proof we need to wait on. Then if I (and others) can be made to understand that, then the article stating Genesis "are" wouldn't sit with me as strangely as it does, because by all accounts it just doesn't seem accurate to keep reflecting it as such at this point. Wilhelm2112 (talk) 20:15, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

That source appears to be a copyright violation of a TV show; we can't use that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:12, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi folks, do you think this article can change things? LowSelfEstidle (talk) 15:19, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

On first thought, Banks saying "I don't think there's anything else left" does not sound like they've definitively decided to break up the band. But I must admit I've no idea what Far Out-magazine is nor what their journalistic methods are, and also I've no idea what Wikipedia in general considers to be a certain break-up or hiatus or end of a band. So, although I was fairly certain that on 26 March 2022, we couldn't yet state that Genesis had ceased to exist, I'm less sure now. I still feel that there is no source stating Genesis have broken up, but I would not be opposed to writing they have, because in a way I feel it may be a matter of the right interpretation of the word "break-up". If Far Out is considered to be a WP:RS, we may consider adding this recent statement by Banks to the article. Mark in wiki (talk) 16:56, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I think i found a source that definetly confirms a breakup, citing that Collins has a broken spine and many nerves broke, and while he says that "Don't worry, I can still sing.", his voice has not aged very well in his later years, and this can be easily observed by listening to his performance on The Last Domino? Tour, and i seriously doubt Rutherford & Banks want to continue either by themselves with someone else or with Collins but in a terrible state, and I'm sure they don't want to go with either, so i think there isn't any possibility of Genesis ever reuniting yet again after The Last Domino? tour, so it is safe to say they're done for good. Neko the gamer (talk) 04:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

For a breakup, we need a reliable source. This article says nothing about a breakup. All I read is many people saying it might be the end of live performance, Collins explicitly saying that he can still sing, and nobody saying anything about studio recordings. Listening to his performance and then concluding Genesis have broken up constitutes WP:OR. Doubts of editors should not be mentioned in an encyclopedic article. Mark in wiki (talk) 07:15, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

While I also think it is inappropriate to mark them as defunct (there's a strong potential for family members & others to step in and keep it moving forward) - as someone who was at one of their last shows in Chicago... Collins may think he can still sing, but that is not the reality. Anyhow - why are we using "Genesis are" in the article, instead of "Genesis is"? I do not see this being used for any other group articles. Picard's Facepalm (talk) 13:37, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know, it is done in every article about a British band, because it is common in British English to refer to bands as plural (or sports teams, for that matter), so it is: "King Crimson were", "Yes are" but "Journey is". Mark in wiki (talk) 13:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Mic Smith document

Recent additions in relation to the release dates cite a self-published document by Mic Smith. While I have no doubt that he is an expert in his field we perhaps do need to discuss the use of his document here to avoid further reverts. Karst (talk) 09:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Have the band broken up?

I know a discussion has previously been had on this topic but it wasn't conclusive. The band has not been musically active since March 2022, there is no sign of plans for them to be from what I have seen. this article says Rutherford says they are over, as well as on this interview on BBC breakfast (I know this video is a copyvio, as the BBC don't post clips from this show them self). Collins announced that the band will be over after their final show, at said show, as seen in this video Banks has also said they are over in this article.

I would like to continue this discussion, see what other peoples interpretations of the evidence is. Also seeing Kiss's article was changed to was, the day after their final show, shows that some editors would consider the band as over. Mewhen123 (talk) 14:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it is less likely that they have "broken up" vs. retired outright. In their last performance, Collins noted it would be their final performance and that everyone would have to get real jobs [1]. While the latter half of that is far from the truth for any of them - it is obvious that if Collins were to tour again - they'd need to wheel him out on a hospital bed. Perhaps the other members will continue on, and introduce new members as well (Nic did an amazing job on drums) - but that would all be speculatory as no official announcement outside of the statement on stage has been released. Short of citing official statements from the band or their management - it's all conjecture at this point and discussing it here without sources would probably violate WP:NOTFORUM. Picard's Facepalm (talk) 15:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

In my post I have shown all 3 members have said the band are over. A more reliable one for banks would be this one. It's been almost two year since their final show. No announcement of any new works have appeared and the only thing members have said about the band is that it's over. What more clarification are we waiting for. A Facebook post saying "Btw we're over"? Mewhen123 (talk) 23:30, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

There are multiple quotes and cites within the article itself from multiple members at multiple times stating "it's over" as far back as 1996 and well into the 2000's - yet for them only to get together and tour again, or change personnel. As far as "new works" - they haven't done any of that since 1997, and they all consider that work to be illegitimate anyhow. Using the "2 year rule" there would have erected the headstone by 2000. You are most likely right - they are done. But how many times has that been speculated before? If you want to includes your cites as ref for statements of what the different members said - they are more than valid to report here in WP with those cites. But you, me, anyone else editing this page, and WP as a whole are in no position to make any official proclamation. All we can do is document the statements and reliable sources, and then edit the article again in the future when/if there is a change. Picard's Facepalm (talk) 15:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@Mewhen123: Agree completely. There's been every interview quote and sign going that the band are over but still people saying, "Welllll, remember last time...14 years..." etc. How long would the article have to wait before it has been long enough: 20 years? :-) It's been years now and WP readers must think it pretty ludicrous. If there's not the words 'disbanded' on a stone tablet that seems to be wanted, that doesn't mean the alternative is true and the article can still state they're together. For a band, it has to be what's closest to the truth as understood. For a couple of years, that's pretty clearly that they've stopped for good and aren't a band any more. They had to stop eventually. In the eventuality that the very unlikely happens and they do something: change the article to say active again. Articles are amended when new albums are released etc. But otherwise the article's stating 'active' on something that's by every account all inactive and no active, so that's just wrong. Feels like this has got out of hand, so it's time to be pragmatic. (I saw one of their final shows btw, great stuff.)ToaneeM (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia's goal is not to try and convey something like "the truth". What Wikipedia tries to do, is to summarise what is already mentioned in reliable sources. As long as we don't have a reliable source stating they have disbanded, I propose that we do not write they have disbanded. Mark in wiki (talk) 18:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Counter point. We don't have any sources to suggest they are still active. Mewhen123 (talk) 18:07, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

We don't have any sources to suggest _anyone_ is active. Yet we don't write "disbanded" every time a band ends a tour or releases an album... Mark in wiki (talk) 18:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Counter counter point - active/inactive ≠ together/disbanded. Picard's Facepalm (talk) 19:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Again, it's time to be pragmatic. People are suggesting waiting for something that's just never going to happen. Whenever bandmembers make statements in interviews that it's over, it's discredited as not a reliable source. If the article didn't say either way, it'd be fine but it makes a statement that the band exists. The band have made multiple statements that the band's well and truly over, but not one statement saying they even might continue, so the default public position is: band over (or prove they're not), not the opposite. This has felt for years like it's being dragged along forever by just a few here, very well-intentioned I'm completely sure, but in a pretty pointless diehard exercise. The stone tablet isn't coming and this WP article must be the last place left saying they're definitely still a band. That's a pity if WP aspires to be the best place for basic accuracy. Not writing it in this article is kidding no readers who know the band, seems they're just bemused by what they read. It's time now to make progress.ToaneeM (talk) 20:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

And again - ended/over ≠ broken up. This is the original question posed, and answered in this discussion thread that now deeply violates WP:NOTFORUM, and is quickly treading into realms of WP:OPINION. I agree with you to a point - everyone knows that the band is done touring and creating music. But that is a far cry different from disbanding & breaking up. It simply means the story is over. Status should be changed to inactive. @Mark in wiki wrote above about the lens that WP needs to maintain for all articles, and he is right on the money with it. Picard's Facepalm (talk) 20:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

i don't see how it is violating WP:NOTFORUM, we are discussing how to improve the article. Mewhen123 (talk) 15:17, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Is this discussion gonna go any where is it staying dormant for the foreseeable future. My question is what will it take for the lead is being changed to were. Mewhen123 (talk) 19:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the discussion has run its course, and the article can remain as-is for now. --Picard's Facepalm • ^{Made It So} _Engage! • 20:14, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

No it hasn't run it's course, no conclusion has been reached. Mewhen123 (talk) 20:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Even if the band never "broke up", any further Genesis activity is not going to happen. The band itself has already stated there will be no future touring or new music, essentially making the band inactive. What exactly are we waiting on? DaveTheBrave (talk) 17:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, I also find it ironic that as soon as Kiss played their "final show", their article was changed, whereas it has been two years and this article still can't be changed. Mewhen123 (talk) 17:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Nowhere on the Kiss page does it say they have broken up. Their years active in the infobox has been updated and reflects correctly. Just like Genesis'. And when Kiss goes on their next tour it will have to be updated yet again. Just like Genesis' was. --Picard's Facepalm • ^{Made It So} _Engage! • 18:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to the was in the lead, as this discussion is about. Mewhen123 (talk) 22:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah - but that has not been your position here. Your position has been that they have broken up. Kiss did not break up - and the article does not state as much. It does state retirement. Let's also not forget taht Kiss had done a farewell tour back in 2000 and retired then - only to then come out of retirement multiple times and multiple farewell tours since.

Your entire platform in this thread (which you started) is that Genesis has broken up. My very first reply was that of retirement - not breaking up - and you have continued to disagree with this. So - if you want to use Kiss as the example - then do indeed use Kiss as the example. --Picard's Facepalm • ^{Made It So} _Engage! • 13:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

no my main stance has been to change the opening paragraph to were Mewhen123 (talk) 13:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. Because that I would concede to. You had not stated that in this entire discussion. The thread is even titled "Have the band broken up?" . Throughout the thread you also mention "disbanded" and "over" - your words! :) So - if we are looking to change is to was/were (BritEng and all that) - no problem. I'd even endorse "retired" (and said as much). But ended/disbanded/broken-up I would not be in agreement with. So long as we keep that distinction - I'm good with even updating it myself :) . --Picard's Facepalm • ^{Made It So} _Engage! • 13:50, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad we've come to an agreement, I apologise for the bad title of the discussion Mewhen123 (talk) 22:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

"Genesis (band" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Genesis (band has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 21 § Genesis (band until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 07:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)