Talk:Gilberto Silva/Archive 1

Failed GA

The article fails criterias #1 #2 and #4.

• 1 (It is well written) - The article itself is well enough written, but I think the many subheaders with very little text makes the article less compelling. I would suggest having fewer and bigger sections. More importantly, a title for fore example Dein and Rosenthal would be helpful to people not knowing them (i.e. Arsenal vice-chairman David Dein, and so on). Also "Justice Jack" seems derogatory and out of place. It could also need a good wikilink check-up, with some links being repeated, while some aren't highlighted at all.
• 2&4 (It is verifiable and NPOV) - It cites "fans" and then writes something either negative or possitive about Silva, which puts the article in an NPOV light. It needs a lot of sources - both regarding people saying something unverifiable and the various quotes, but also in regards to specific statistics. Not least the 20.06 second goal.

Additionally, the sentence "Gilberto has indicated that after his current contract finishes at Arsenal, he wants to return to Brazil to play club football." seems totally out of place. And the WC 2006 section should be before the 2006-07 season section, simply because that is the chronological chain of events. Also, the club statistics could be merged into one big table, much like Daniel Agger (and I guess very many others). Poulsen 17:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFF

This feedback was left about the Gilberto Silva article:

Flows quite well and isn't that far off the standard of the Denis Law article. Using dates in the sub-headings is probably not a good idea, at least until his playing career is over ("2002-present" could be wrong by tomorrow). Both the "Praise and Criticism" and "Trivia" sections would be better worked into the text - it will give it some life and remove these sections as point of view targets and places for dumping information without thought. Some of the sections are a little short to warrant splitting off, consider dropping some of the sub-headings. Also there is a real lack of references for important statements, such as "It was Gilberto's performance in this tournament which led to him being classed as one of the top defensive midfielders in the world" and "proving he was not just a watercarrier for the team" (the latter needs sources for why that was expected to be the case as well as some explanation). Yomangani^talk 23:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More improvement suggestions

This was left in my user talk page. (Thanks goes to green catepillar.)

I noticed that there have been many improvements to the article. However, the early life section could use expanding. After this, check that it is factually accurate, verifiable, and npov (see WP:WIAGA), and then you (or I or someone else) could nominate it for good article candidacy. If it succeeds, the class could be upgraded to GA.

However, for now, the next highest class is A-class, and I'm not sure this would qualify. So I recommend trying the above. Hope everything goes well. Green caterpillar 19:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Review

I saw the message in my talk page and I went quickly through the article once again. It is much much better and I donot think it will have any problem to become GA. These are my suggestions for further improvement:

• In "Arsenal career" I see some short paragraphs, often one-sentence paragraphs. Try to merge or expand them. The goal here is to make the prose more coherent. Try to make your article have agood flow and tell a coherent story (like a nice tale!).
• "Style of play" looks to me a bit stubby. Expand it a bit, if you can and invclude some "technical" details about his way of playing (even well-grounded criticisms-you may be a fan, but your article hat to be NPOV and cover all the range of opinions).
• Try to turn "Honours" into prose. Such listy sections are not recommended.
• In "Notes and references" and "External links", when you mention or citate a link, try to include all the necessary elements about it (not only URL, but also date it was retrieves, author if it is signed, always its title - check any Feautured Article to have an idea).
• Sites are nice sources. But any printed sources? I know it is tough, but it would be nice if you could find some of them. They ara highly recommended. Why don't you search Google Book, if there is something.

In any case, this is a great improvement. Continue this way and the article will be just great!--Yannismarou 17:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Automated Peer Review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.Y
• Per WP:WIAFA, Images should have concise captions.Y
• If this article is about a person, please add {{persondata}} along with the required parameters to the article - see Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.Y
• Per WP:MOSNUM, there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 18mm, use 18 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 18 mm.Y
• Per WP:MOSNUM, please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, "the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth.Y
• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.Y
• As per WP:MOSDATE, dates shouldn't use ^th; for example, instead of using January 30^th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.Y
• Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.Y
• There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.Y For example,
  • allege
  • is considered
  • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a. - This is ongoing. -GilbertoSilvaFan 13:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas.

GA nomination

This is overall a great article, but I did notice a few problems...

• The numerous times Mr. Silva is referred to as Gilberto should be changed to his last name. This is just common encyclopedic custom.

Normally this is true, but below, QmunkE points out why this article is an exception

• The block quote attributed to Mr. Silva in the Early life section needs to be sourced.

Now sourced.

• This sentence should have a proper cite.(It was in this position that Gilberto flourished, scoring three goals in the 2001 season and becoming one of Brazilian club football's most highly rated players.)

Not sourced. I must have made this up.

• As should this sentence. (Despite these goals, it was generally assumed that Gilberto's international career would be short-lived at most.)

I didn't make this one up since it was never documented everywhere, but fans did assume this. Removed claim from article as I won't find a source for it.

• The direct quote attributed to Arsené Wenger in the first paragraph of the Arsenal career section needs to be sourced.

BAM! Now sourced.

• I'd also recommend that the very last reference in the article be moved so that it appears to reference the quote at the end of the sentence.

I agree. Fixetated.

Provided that these objections are taken care of, I have no problem passing this article for Good status. I am putting this article on hold to give you time to address these concerns. Cheers for such a great article! Deyyaz ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 16:34, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Many Brazillian footballers tend to be referred to using their given names, see Juninho Paulista, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho for examples. The encyclopedia articles on them do and should probably continue to reflect this. QmunkE 16:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking all the time to read through the article Deyyaz, I really appreciate your work. I have taken care of all the points on your list; if you have time I'd be grateful if you can read through the article again and see if you think it is now worth of GA Status. If not, just let me know what else you think needs doing! Cheers. -GilbertoSilvaFan 22:10, 8 October 2006 (UTC) ---P.S. I have written in italics below each one of your points what changes I have made, just to make it a bit easier for you.

GA response

Hey, thanks for your prompt response to my suggestions and please accept by apologies for not being as prompt.(I forgot to change the status on my user page). While I think that it sounds more professional by referring to a person by their last name in an article, I will relent in this case as I feel it does not detract from the quality of the article. Anyways, I accepted your invitation to look through the article again and found a few more things that I couldn't consciously let pass.

• The entire second paragraph in the Early life section is unreferenced. The bit about the tibia fracture definitely needs to be referenced.

I think you meant the 2nd paragraph from Early career; I agree with this. I removed a sentence which I must have made up again, and added a tibia ref.

• This sentence, too (Although Gilberto had a period of bad form during the winter months of the season, his good defensive performances during the latter stages of the UEFA Champions Leauge (in particular, games against Real Madrid and Juventus) gained him praise.)

I added a reference for both the Madrid and Juventus games. I linked to two match reports which describe his performances as good.

• The bit about Dunga being Gilberto's childhood idol should be referenced.

BAM! Cited.

Besides these things, and a few awkwardly worded sentences, this article is golden. The love you put into it certainly shows. A word of advice, this article probably should be looked over by a skilled copyeditor, however I will not object on the account of a few awkward sentences. After these last concerns are dealt with I will proudly promote this to Good Article Status. Deyyaz ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 02:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello again mate, thanks for all the feedback! I've added more refs to all the sentences you've listed above. I am interested in the awkward sentences which you spotted though. Are there many? Would it be too much to ask you to list them here? I'm trying to improve all aspects of the article so that nothing can stop it from eventually becoming FA-Status. Also - please do let me know if there are any more sentences which you think need citations. I'm not overly concerned about the article being rated 'GA-Status' - I'm more interested in genuinely improving the article so that it can be as brilliant and reliable as possible. I'll try and find a Wikipedian who is good at copyediting to help me make some adjustments like you suggested. Thanks for your kind words, too. All the best, -GilbertoSilvaFan 08:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I have looked through the article again quickly, fixing a few spelling and grammar errors. I couldn't find any awkward sentences, so maybe I'm going insane, but barring that, a good copyeditor still really couldn't hurt. I feel pretty confident that this article meets the Good Article criteria and so I'm going to list it as such. Cheers on such a great article. Also, if you ever need someone to look the article over before you send it to the FAC I will gladly volunteer whenever that time comes. Cheers, Deyyaz ^{[ Talk | Contribs ]} 19:24, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for passing the article! Now, I'm going to get the best copyeditor I know (my mother) to look at it :-). After that, I'll nominate it as a FAC and see what happens! That should be in about five days. Is there anything which you think would stop it being a featured article? I'm not expecting it to pass first time really, but even if it does fail like, at least I'll get some useful feedback. One quick question about the 'gain' vs. 'gained' grammar change you made; don't you think that 'gain' is a more appropriate word? "Despite this, he helped them win the Série B division, " - that is the past tense part of the sentence, then... "and consequently gain promotion to Série A." is the present tense part. If it was "gained", that would sort of imply that they had already been promoted before Gilberto had good form. I don't know. Try saying it aloud and see what you reckon.

Anyway, all the best, and I'll probably speak to you soon. -GilbertoSilvaFan 00:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

One sentence query and punctuation

Hi all, good comprehensive article. I wonder if this sentence is correct: "...having gone over 45 games without receiving a booking on two occasions during his Arsenal career". Do you mean that he received only two bookings over the 45 games of his Arsenal career? It currently reads as if he's got bookings on all BUT 2 occasions! Perhaps "...having received only two bookings in his 45 career appearances for Arsenal". Also I'd like to clean up some of the punctuation (mainly on comma usage as I'm a stickler for it) if you don't mind...--Rob2000 12:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, I've gone through making mostly comma changes and a few similar grammatical alterations. I had a couple of other suggestions too:

• The Arsenal career section contains alot of non-arsenal career info (wages, internationals). I see from the talk pages that you originally wrote it chronologically. Perhaps the title needs adjusting, so it implies not just his career AT arsenal, but his career from when he joined arsenal eg "career since joining Arsenal"

Good point. What would you recommend changing the 'Arsenal career' header to? The only thing it can really be changed to is 'Recent career' or words to that effect. Either that or it would have to be split up into loads of subsections like this, which was deemed poor formatting by some senior editors.

Edit: I decided to change it to 'Recent career'. If you can think of something more suitable (I'm sure you can), please change it =)

GilbertoSilvaFan 15:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• the pass completion section: I (a gooner) didn't know he had been criticised for it (for what exactly?), and you don't cite such an attack. Perhaps either the accusations should be clearer therfore making the defense more even, or it should be rephrased as a commentary on his skilled and frequent short-passing and his infrequent long-passing (which IS cited I think(?)). This would also make it look less like your own defense of the player. I'd be happy to give this a go.--Rob2000 14:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Strange; I have always thought that a major criticism of Gilberto has been his passing. At highbury, there were always huge moans whenever Bert did a bad pass, and discussions about Gilberto on forums or on the terraces always seemed to focus on his bad passes. Maybe I just focus on that because I'm a fan of Gilberto. I agree with your observation that I appear to be defending the criticism, too. I'll fix that (unless you do first).

Edit: Now, I'm actually thinking that there is significant criticism of Gilberto's passing to warrant a mention in the Style of Play section. I googled "Gilberto's passing" and here are the sentences from the first few results:

1. BTW, Gilberto's passing was shocking today. ...
2. Apart from 1 or 2 really good passing moves, he gave the ball away (nothing needs to be said about Gilberto's passing abilities)
3. Gilberto's passing is poor , there is no way anyone can argue against that .
4. Sorry but Gilberto's passing is awful and I don ' t think he can hold the ball up which is important in central midfield .
5. When Gilberto's passing is smooth he carries out those tasks invaluably, protecting the defence and allowing more creative players to work their magic.
6. You say Gilberto's passing is * * * * , but he doesn ' t need to make those wonderful throughballs like Cesc does .
7. Because Gilberto's passing is so uninspiring that it's not him who's going to create many chances for others .
8. And what system guards against the horror that is Gilberto's passing ?

From the first eight results returned, seven of those results are opinions which criticise his passing. I'll leave the sentence about his passing being criticised in there, and try and find a good source to back it up.

-GilbertoSilvaFan 15:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Career Statistics

Gilberto's early club stats are almost complete. I've used what information I could find on http://www.footballdatabase.com/site/players/index.php?dumpPlayer=1095, but the 1997 and 1998 season needs adding. Any knowledge or sources regarding his early career days would be muchly appreciated.

Thank you, --GilbertoSilvaFan 12:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Volante

Volante is not a nickname. In Spanish or Portuguese its is the name given to a defensive midfielder.

This is a good point - but English journalists do refer to him as Arsenal's "volante". I've never heard him referred to "Parede Invisível" in English, so maybe this should be changed? Your view is greatly appreciated - but remember that the nicknames are going to be from a more English viewpoint, because it's English Wikipedia! :-) In Portuguese and Spanish Wikipedia, "Volante" probably would not appear as his nickname, since that would be like an Englishman calling Beckham "Midfielder". In Spain, calling Beckham "Midfielder", however, could be a nickname. In England, calling a Spanish person "amigo" is a nickname, but it wouldn't be in Spain. The examples go on. What do other people think about this? BTW - I agree that you removed "Gilberto" as a nickname though - it is quite simply his first name - not a nickname!GilbertoSilvaFan 18:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Notes on a spoken article

Here are a few notes, to nobody in particular, about the spoken version of this article which I added recently.

• It is my first spoken article, though I have done a few pronunciation recordings on Wiktionary before
• I did this recording over a time period of about four months. This is why my voice varies quite substantially in pitch and tone throughout the article. Also; at the time of recording some of the latter paragraphs, I also had a cold. I suppose people would advise against recording with a cold... but what else is there to do when off sick, other than record spoken articles?
• I used Audacity to record this. Resizing Firefox and Audacity into half a screen each (pic) seemed to work best for me.
• I held a home-made 'fluff reducer' in front of the microphone for all of the recording. I used the old coat-hanger trick, except instead of spreading a pair of tights over the wire (I don't have any tights, let alone an old pair), I taped a large tissue over it. Here's a pic of my contraption.
• I do not pretend like I am an expert at spoken recordings; far from it. I know that my voice is very radio un-friendly, and I don't have a naturally narrative tone. I also stumble when I read aloud. However, I don't think that any of this should stop me (or anybody) from giving spoken articles a go. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GilbertoSilvaFan (talk • contribs) 10:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

Goals section

The goals section is ballooning. While his recent run of goals is good for Gilberto, it isn't so good for his goal table. Should it be removed from the article? Added to a subpage? Left as it is? Your comments would be much appreciated. Please take a look and post what you think! Thanks :-) GilbertoSilvaFan 09:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

just the career table is okay, but with a list detailing each goal seems too much, even if he is not as prolific as this season in future. Chensiyuan 09:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Good to hear from you, Chensiyuan. What are your thoughts on having a sub page housing his goal table? I mean, if I'm really honest, I'd say that the goal table isn't very useful at all. I don't imagine anybody who comes across the article really looks at it for more than a few seconds. I suppose if a sub page for his goals exists, all kinds of other sub pages could exist too, which would all be equally as trivial. Maybe I'll just move the goal table to my user page for... strategical sheep purposes. And maybe I'm just thinking out aloud. Or talking to myself. Anyway, thanks for your input. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GilbertoSilvaFan (talk • contribs) 10:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

it's really up to you, i know i've seen this done in the NBA context e.g. Dwyane Wade who has a decent subpage for all his on-court achievements. i'm not one of those pesky people who slap speedy delete on such subpages, but there may just be one or two out there who have nothing better to do but destroy subpages. Chensiyuan 10:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Sound advice. Thanks. I just did some reading and realised I've been using the term 'subpage' when what I had in mind wasn't really a subpage by definition. So really, Career achievements of Dwyane Wade isn't really a subpage, and nor would an article called Gilberto Silva goals, (but Gilberto Silva/Goals obviously would be). Do you know of any guideline on this type of non-slash-subpage? I'll have a look around anyway. Thanks again. GilbertoSilvaFan 11:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

yup i guess it won't really be called a subpage, i know what you mean. however, i do not really know of any guidelines. the Dwyane Wade example is kind of exceptional, and his achievements page was really created to placate people who constantly update his page every other second over every other achievement, e.g. youngest player ever in the NBA to record 18 points 10 rebounds 8 assists, which is really not a very noteworthy statistic, but gains notice only because NBA.com is hugely obsessed with all manner of latest "records", and fans pounce on these. which is why i think if a new article was created for GS's achievements, pesky people would come and question its need - although i wouldn't, because i find these people counterproductive. anyways, you did a great job on the GS article, i wish all soccer articles were anything close to what you have done... Chensiyuan 12:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Had a play about yesterday, here's what I came up with:

• the draft goals page
• the draft goals page link

Comments greatly appreciated before I update the actual article. GilbertoSilvaFan 12:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Right. I went ahead with those changes yesterday, and after a speedy deletion tag was put on Gilberto Silva goals, I managed to convince User:ArglebargleIV that the article should stay. Check Talk:Gilberto_Silva_goals for details. If anyone has comments or suggestions about the new page, please do post them! GilbertoSilvaFan 11:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

sounds and looks good! Chensiyuan 04:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Gilberto Silva/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Assessment by the Biography WikiProject team== Has "qualities" (pictures, links, and many subheadings), and an infobox. However, the article should be expanded. Green caterpillar 20:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC) ==Assessment by the Football WikiProject== Hi! What I meant with my comment was that it needs much work to go higher than GA-class, I expressed myself a little bit unclear. I saw it was up on GA nomination, but I am not very good at judging which articles are GA-class and which are not, so we'll have to see if it is good enough already. However, to be rated even higher, that is, A- or FA-class, it needs a lot of work, more text, incorporation of the trivia and court cases in the main text body, and just general fixes. See Denis Law for an example of a FA-class player article. Hope this helps a little. – Elisson • Talk 19:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)