Talk:Gjirokastër/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
NPOV nomination
How is the following sentence the second most important fact about the city of Gjirokaster? "It is considered the centre of the Greek[1] community of Albania."
Have you ever visited? Have you spent time there? There are myriad other facts about this place that rank more important that this. Enough with the sectarian nationalism. Have some common sense. Actually visit the city -- and see how many more facts are important (obviously, the fact that it is a UNESCO World Heritage site should be cited higher) or that it is the birthplace of Enver Hoxha, Albania's brutal dictator. Give me a break...
It is my opinion that User:Tsourkpk has not displayed proper decorum and objectivity on many ethnically charged articles involved greece. Please consider his history on Wikipedia and this article when considering the NPOV nomination.
- Pretty hypocritical of you to talk about decorum, when your very first contribution to Wikipedia consisted of a vicious personal attack against me. You are the last person on earth who has a right to talk about neutrality, considering your behavior. You have no arguments and no sources to back up what you are saying, so you are just content to make personal attacks against me. This shows the weakness of your position as well as a police state mentality. Wikipedia relies on sources, something you do not seem to be aware of. Now, keep up the personal attacks and I will personally see to it that you are banned from wikipedia. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Slow down Tsourkok. I did not viciously attack you. I only said that reviewing your history of edits on Wikipedia indicates that many people are taking issue with your contributions which relate to ethinically charged articles, such as this one. According to your user profile, you have never visited Albania, so it is safe to assume you've never been to Gjirokaster. I do not take issue necessarily with the fact that there are some Greek speaking people in the region. My greatest concern is that the second sentence of this article refers to Gjirokaster as the center of Greek community in Albania. Any one who has even been there and spent some time can tell you that there is no way this is the most important "fact" (disputable or not) regarding this city and it should not be the second sentence in this article - PERIOD!
Regarding the source quoted above which supposedly proves your point, I just read it and it in no way references Gjirokaster as the "centre of the Greek[1] community of Albania." Not only that, but in fact the quote you cite is only half the actual quote. If you read the entire paragraph, you see that this quote references Greeks life in the past tense - talking about pre-WW1 settlements. Here it is in its entirety.
In the modern period, as the struggle for Albanian independence developed under the disintegrating Ottoman empire, many parts of southern Albania were subject to violent inter-communal conflict, as Greek irredentists attempted to integrate parts of what is now southern Albania into a “Greater Greece”. Given its large Greekspeaking population, the city of Gjirokastra (in Greek, Agyrocastro), in the Vjosa (Aoos) River valley, only twenty miles from the Greek border, was a particularly active centre of irredentist ambition. Outbreaks of ethnic violence in the area were particularly serious immediately after Albanian independence was declared and during the Second Balkan War, as some Albanian-speaking villages in Epirus fought on the side of the Turks against the Greek-speaking villages. In February 1914, a Pan-Epirote Association was founded in Gjirokastra, and the town and its vicinity were proclaimed a part of Greece. In May 1914, the Great Powers signed the Protocol of Corfu, which recognized the area as Greek, after which it was occupied by the Greek army from October 1914 until October 1915. Greece’s administration under the Protocol was short-lived, however, and collapsed after the Italian invasion in 1915.
The opening paragraph has to be changed.
- In spite of your incivility (calling me a propagandist and whatnot, and then hypocritically pretending you didn't), I'm going to do you a favor and try explain how Wikipedia works. It works with sources. Please read WP:RS. So far, you have offered nothing but your own opinion, not a single source. I'm going to guess you're the guy that had posted that link to that photoblog a while back, and that this is not your field. Unfortunately for you, "I have been there" is not a source. As you can see here [[1]], Gjirokaster sits squarely in the middle of a zone of Greek majority. Thus, it is the center of the Greek community in Albania. This is from Le Monde Diplomatique, a highly reputable French newspaper and an impeccable source. As for the quote you mention above, it clearly states "large Greek speaking population" and "centre" in the same sentence. Why would Gjirokaster not be the center of the irredentist movement if it were not the center of the community? Come on, put and two and two together. Concerning your comments on the order with which things appear, well, that is a matter of opinion. But the fact that is is the center of the Greek minority in Albania is important no matter hoe look at it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
- Please Tsourkpk, no one wants this to be personal. The source you are using refers to the makeup of Gjirokaster nearly 100 years ago -- not today. This issue was up for discussion for a full week. Reading the source you have, it only makes it clear that there was once a sizable population in the region of Gjirokaster. There is no sourcing that says the same holds true today. I am reverting the article but will put the NPOV back on. Hopefully you can get a new source...but even so, how is this the most relevant fact about the city? The revision kept the reference to the Greek population but I believe it placed it in a more balanced light (notwithstanding the current lack of sourcing). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.124.19 (talk) 23:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- This source [[2]] is from 1999 and shows Gjirokaster in the center of "region of Greek majority). It is most current and reliable. Taken together with the older source, this means that Gjirokaster was a center of the Greek community at least 100 years ago as well as in 1999. So I.m the one with the source and you are not. As for the order in which things appear, I might be willing to accept having the part about being a UNESCO World Heritage site come first, but a sentence on it being the center of the Greek community in Albania should follow that, as that is also pretty important. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- Regarding the source at Le Monde diplomatique: The map which you are suggesting "shows Gjirokaster in the center of "region of Greek majority)" has a significant problem. If you see the map, you see that there is a primary sources where the map is supposed to come from "Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995." Here is a copy of the original text - [3]. I've read the entire thing -- and there is absolutely no reference to ethnic Greeks living within the border of modern day Albania. I think the map is highly suspect, considering the primary source it is claiming the map is derived from. Do you have any other sources we can consider? I don't think this one holds up to Wikipedia's standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.22.126 (talk) 01:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- The map has that source regarding Albanian presences the newspaper is not Wikipedia .Email the newspaper if there is an issue.The map is fine.There are sources in the article itself and that show the map is correct and that Greeks are there.Megistias (talk) 08:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thats regarding the Albanians and not the whole map."The Albanian population is dispersed among three different states: Albania, Macedonia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.Sources : Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995.Megistias (talk) 08:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
"Megistias (talk) 08:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Megistias - please read the Le Monde Diplomatique link again. At the bottom, the website cites the source of the map as "Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995." I have read this essay in its entirety and I can assure there is no reference to borders or percentages of ethnic Albanians or Greeks living within the borders of the country. I am asking you to find a different source that shows that in Southern Albania today there is a majority Greek ethnic population. Please do not rip the NPOV label off until it is agreed upon by the people discussing the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.86.19 (talk) 23:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- Is also mentions "Macedonians" the source is for the Albanians and the map is fine.You are the one who should read it again .Megistias (talk) 07:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- To the anonymous Albanophile: Le Monde Diplomatique is unassailable as a source. You just don't like its implication, so you are trying to undermine it. This is all the more ridiculous, as you are the one who doesn't have a single source to support what you are saying. I have provided a modern, reliable and secondary source that satisfies WP:RS, and you have not. Wikipedia works with sources, not your personal testimony. I consider this discussion closed. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- There is no room for language such as "Albanophile" in this discussion. I only seek an accurate representation (do not make this a tribal/political issue -- it certainly is not). That said, you are repeating the same mistake -- "Le Monde Diplomatique" is not the "unassailable" source of this map in question. Again, I repeat, the source cited is "Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise," which makes no mention of ethnic populations within Albania, rendering the map suspect. I've searched for different source we can use as evidence of your assertion, but have yet to now been unable to find anything concrete.
The CIA World Fact Book estimates 3% of Albania's population is ethnically Greek. [4]. Other reports I've read have Greek population estimates ranging from less than 1% to 10% Greek. This 1990 (communist -era) map [5] from Britannica shows southern Albania to have a minority of Greeks, but a population between 25 and 49%. It would be good to see a modern census, as the country was still very-much closed to the outside world in 1990. I'll keep looking. In the meantime, the NPOV must stay attached to this article and the discussion will continue. Users Tsourkpk and Megistias are not the final arbiters of this topic - but they are invited to participate in a respectable, non-politically partisan manner.
- The estimates I've seen for the size of the Greek minority in Albania range from as low as 60,000 (1989 census, of dubious reliability) to as high as 400,000 (from a Greek organization, also dubious). But that is irrelevant to this discussion. This is the article on the city of Gjirokaster, not the size of the Greek minority in albania. As for your argument about "Le monde diplomatique", I think it seems like a just a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Like Megistias keeps telling you, the "Le monde diplomatique" only uses that particular reference for the Albanian population, not the Greek one. The map IS drawn by Le Monde Diplomatique, not the Qosja reference. That newspaper is one of the most prestigious publications out there, with a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, and they wouldn't put their name on any suspect maps. It meets all the requirements of WP:RS, and then some more. Do you speak French by the way? --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
NPOV Suggested Opening Section
Gjirokastër (Greek: Αργυρόκαστρον Argyrókastron, Aromanian: Ljurocastru, Italian: Argirocastro, Turkish: Ergiri) is a city in southern Albania at [show location on an interactive map] 40°04′N, 20°08′E with a population of around 34,000. It is also the capital of both the Gjirokastër District and the larger Gjirokastër County. Its old town is inscribed on the World Heritage List as "a rare example of a well-preserved Ottoman town, built by farmers of large estate". Located in the south of the country, at 300 meters above sea level, Gjirokastër has a beautiful and dramatic situation in a lush valley between the high Gjerë mountains and the rushing river Drin or Drinos.
Gjirokastër is one of the most venerable towns of Albania. Following the archeological site of Butrint (Buthrotum), located on the Ionian coast south of the city of Saranda, Gjirokastër was the second site in Albania to be recognized as a UNESCO World Heritage site. The city is overlooked by a large castle (Kalaja e Gjirokastres) with walls that date to the 3rd of 4th century BC.
Gjirokaster and the surrounding region formerly was home to a significant Greek population (Pre-WW1)[1]. Its name in Greek, Argyrokastron, means Silver Fortress, which refers to the castle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.86.19 (talk) 22:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
--Unless there is any objection, I am going to bring this live by April 4, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.15.105 (talk) 04:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
SUBSTANTIAL GREEK COMMUNITY
Could the one who added this text elaborate on it? How could you claim something when you have no proof that it even exists. And why even put substanital - it just doesn't sound too NPOV.- KAÇAK
The Greek community in Gjirokaster is only MINOR
Nationality map of east central and Southeast Europe 1989-1992
It shows the concentration of Greeks were in Gjirokaster and Sarande, but its only minor. 24.90.102.133 00:20, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Permission
Photo by Marc Morell
I am from Gjirokaster. I lived in Zagoria. Many speak Greek in the region, but very few actually identify themselves as being "Greek."
Page Targeted by Albanian Nationalists
It appears someone, probably an albanian nationalist, has systematically erased everything Greek-related from the article. The fact that this individual targeted only Greek-related sections leads me to believe these were politically motivated edits and I have consequently reverted them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsourkpk (talk • contribs) 00:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
What does nationalist means to you ?? Other than some Greek language left in use from the time of Byzantine Empire and kept alive by the Orthodox church and Greek priest who still give mass in Greek to Albanian people. There is nothing Greek about the Albanian cities.
Something that I would say about some of the regions in Greece.
if I'm being a nationalist... what are you?.. claiming my land.
I have documented 9 generations of my family and know where I come from and my history.
That, makes me nationalist, which I am.
Can you say the same? --jon (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by DetiJon (talk • contribs) 17:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Invitation to discuss everything in this article in a constructive way
Why do you call old town Gjirokaster an Ottoman city??
Why state that is center of Hellenism ??
Why is the article written with intent to portray Gjirokaster as a use to be Greek town?
Proofs only and logic argument please, any other will be dissregarded.
Jon--jon (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Deleting Ottoman comment
Why do you call old town Gjirokaster an Ottoman city?? Based on what facts is made such a statement. If nobody gives impartial references I shall deleted.
Jon--79.97.11.216 (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Since no one has brought up any arguments or references the Ottoman comment is deleted.
Jon--jon (talk) 11:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Deleting Gjirocastra center of the Greek culture
Somebody please give some meaning to this statements based on what logic or reference. Please refer to something that backs up this.
If not it will be deleted as unfounded.
Jon--jon (talk) 11:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
This should be deleted cause its open provocation and its is only for greece's territorial intereses nothing else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Illyrian88 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
About this "center of Greek culture"
I would like to know what exactly makes this city a "center of Greek culture". The university is named after Ekrem Cabej, an Albanologist, its main square is named after Cerciz Topulli, a nationalist born in the city. The city itself is almost entirely Albanian populated with the Greek minority living in the adjacent villages(namely Dropul, Droviani etc.). The city itself gave birth to a number of Albanian nationalists, artists and politicians(most notorious being Enver Hoxha). The city itself was built under the Ottoman period and shows architecture typical of the Ottoman Empire and formed part of what was unofficially recognized as Arnavutluk. Before then it was nothing more than a fortress that from the 14th century onwards passed from one Albanian tribal lord to another. If not all this, we should also consider the fact that the city is mostly Muslim(largely Bektashi) and has more mosques than churches.
So I would kindly ask just what exactly makes it a center of Greek culture? 128.226.209.45 (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- "Given its large Greek-
speaking population, the city of Gjirokastra (in Greek, Agyrocastro)"[6]Megistias (talk) 18:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
But just as I mentioned, the "large Greek community" is not present within the city itself but in its "rreth"(region). If you notice, the city never had a "Greek quarter". It was largely a Muslim Ottoman(with the exception of a few merchants) city with the wealthy members of it holding the nearby lands, many of which were inhabited by Greek peasants. And there is no area of "Greek culture" in Albania since there is no particular community center for the Greeks. Gjirokaster does not have a Greek university there; nor any particular cultural society or anything for that matter. The rrethi of Gjirokaster has Greeks, not Gjirokaster itself. In fact, no city in Albania, barring Korca -- because it rose in the later 1800's -- had a significant Christian community since only the Muslims had the social mobility to move up. Only later did the Christians begin to move, but mostly in cities such as Elbasan, Vlora, Durres, Shkoder and eventually(though only very late) Tirana. 128.226.209.45 (talk) 18:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Im not going to bother arguing that. Anyway, my point of contention is the claim that it is a "center of Greek culture", which there is no basis for. As I mentioned, the city lacks any Greek organization, society, college, etc. etc. 128.226.209.45 (talk) 19:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Megistias !
Could you tell me how many Greeks are in the cities you claim the center of Hellenism ?? Do you know that a major part of the true Greek community in Albania came after the first and second world war for economic reasons! You write a lot of things which you are not bothered to discuss that in your world only or someone like you, are the need to be truth. You are one of a few that the word culture or truth and history does not occur.
So please stop spreading lies, would like to be, day dreaming so called information.
Jon --jon (talk) 17:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DetiJon (talk • contribs) 17:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- After the second world war? LOL! After the second world war, Greeks migrated to DEVELOPED countries, like the US, Canada, Australia, and Germany, not the poorest, least developed country in Europe! According to the CIA World Factbook, there are at least 120,000 Greeks in southern Albania [7]. Also, as you can see here [8], Greeks are majority (orange lines) in the southern border region of Albania. So who's the one "spreading lies" and "day dreaming"? --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I know a hole Family tree about 6 Families that are true Greeks that came after the second world war living in Vlora city, which I personally know. My grandfather housed a Greek family after the second world war.
1. Not everybody could afford to travel to far away land. 2. They left their homes because everything was scars and as the last resort they moved. 3. The vicinity of the country made a lot of them to try Albania without a plan. 4. Albania is one of the poorest countries in Europe today but Greece was a lot worst than Albania after the second world war.
There are only 3% Greeks in Albania and a few of wanna bee ones. These last ones are Gift of the Greek policy towards Albanians.
Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian, Bulgarian) (1989 est.) note: in 1989, other estimates of the Greek population ranged from 1% (official Albanian statistics) to 12% (from a Greek organization)
That is what this website says about the population ethnicities in Albania. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/al.html
Based on what has this website is giving this info? Who wrote the article? Who drew the map? It's all unofficial. http://mondediplo.com/maps/albanianmdv1999
I can bring references like this but you dismiss them as Albanian propaganda. LOL
Think ... if all region that is shown in that phony map was Greek majority how come there is so little members in their organizations. There are less than 3% Greeks in Albania. Narta & Dropulli are villages with a true Greek majority population known officially by the Albanian government and respected by all.
So LOL right back at you! Spreading lies and day dreaming is still you and your friends.
Jon--79.97.11.216 (talk) 18:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you don't understand how Wikipedia works. I suggest you read and familiarize WP:RS, which should make this discussion easier. You provide anecdotal evidence ("I know a family tree of 6, bla bla"), which is not acceptable in Wikipedia. That's just your own hearsay. Even so, so what if some Greeks migrated after WW2? That's not the point here, is it? The point is, I give sources, namely two of them: 1) The CIA World Factbook, and 2) the French newspaper "Le Monde Diplomatique". Both are of a high standard, with a reputation for fact checking, and satisfy WP:RS. The fact that they are unofficial has no bearing on their reliability (and probably is a good thing, since we know how "reliable" official Albanian statistics from 1989 can be). --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I don't understand how wikipedia works, but I understand one thing that it allows for people to create and spread lies in mass without even the Hearsay let alone truth.
About my Hearsay it was an answer to your sarcastic and ignorant comment only, not a contribution. As for the info. you call a hearsay above I can give you names and addresses of the family I mention even pictures and the history they tell how they came to Albania. Will that be prof enough? At least I'm writing TRUTH.
CIA Factbook /which I'm not disputing/ at least it's referring to a sours no matter reliable to you or not.
"Le Monde Diplomatique" is getting the info from what/who??
Jon--jon (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- My god, you still just don't get it. Wikipedia is about verifiability, not "TRUTH". Of course every nationalist thinks they speak the truth, but that's not the point. The point is, if you want to be taken seriously, you have to use reliable sources and only reliable sources (such as CIA World Factbook and Le Monde Diplomatique). Providing names and addresses of some families is definitely NOT the way to go. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I do get it . Read well and you will understand.
I accept the CIA Factbook as a reliable source based on their sources of info. Since there is a dispute between the two ethnicities. They bring their sources in and do not make any conclusions. For the simple fact that no one can other than the parties involved.
My dispute is with "Le Monde Diplomatique" is laughable their source of info., is unfounded.
If I bring you more sources that say that the Greek minority in Albania is 3% would you agree to change it??
My proposal would be the to revised to what the CIA Factbook says it is more impartial.
Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian, Bulgarian) (1989 est.) note: in 1989, other estimates of the Greek population ranged from 1% (official Albanian statistics) to 12% (from a Greek organization)
It states the two sources of info., that could possibly know the percentage.
Jon--jon (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- No, Albanian sources and Greek are both biased though Albanian sources are biased to the extreme by "the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."Megistias (talk) 19:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Megistias have you ever lived in Albania ?? And please stop man with all you theories.
Coming back to the point... There are a lot people and organizations declaring absurdities. So my suggestion is that we can be impartial by stating what CIA Factbook has, which is both the parties involved figures.
All I can say after that is that time will tell who is right. This site as I learned, is not about the truth but has to be at least impartial.
Jon--jon (talk) 17:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Based on those sources I'm moving for an impartial statement. You are not stating your sources, but taking the part that you want to read only. That is the argument I'm making.
Look again at the sources they bring.
That's what I want to state the sources and what they say rather then the part that suits you the most.
Jon--jon (talk) 11:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I live in Albania and my mother is from Gjirokastra, in fact the Greek population inside the city is very small and the Greeks live in the villages near the border with Greece such as Dropull...apart this Gjirokastra is the birthplace of numerous Albanian figures , including the dictator, Enver Hoxha...Although one thing is sure the south of Albania is not the center of Hellenism, I don't understand all these Nationalist and primitive countries we border, for e.g. even the Serbs say, Kosovo is the center of Serbian History...What is this sick politic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.250.130 (talk) 08:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- We can't all be as advanced as the Albanians, I'm afraid. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
POV
Some admin needs to help in here by cleaning the POV.This article sounds like a Greek city rather than an Albanian city.--Taulant23 (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- That is its history it was a Creek & byzantine city and Albanians that came in the middle ages at 11th century ad and later on in the general region much later moved to the south.Its name was Greek and now the name is still Greek.And Greek population is still there along with Albanians despite the fact that now its in Albania.Megistias (talk) 10:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Albanians that came in the middle ages at 11th century ad and later on in the general region much later moved to the south????? That's what I mean by POV,just proved my point.--Taulant23 (talk) 19:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well, that's not so much what I have a problem with, but rather the attempts to eradicate the word "Greek" from the article, of which there have been quite a few (just look at the talk history). I'm fine with removing "North Epirus", but I will not allow the "virtual eradication" of the Greek minority. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- I appreciate your concern, but for example, the word "Greek" appears twice in the second paragraph, while the word "Albania" appears four times. Also the infoboxes for both the city and the UNESCO world heritage site state quite clearly that the city is in Albania, and the map on the infobox puts it beyond any doubt. In any case, the article is fine now, so let's leave it at that. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
WP:WHS Assessment
Looking through this article, I've found some things that you can improve in order to bring it up to B standards, in addition to the list in the WHS assessment box.
The list of "famous" Gjirokastrites should probably be renamed. The criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia is 'verifiability' and 'notability', 'not' fame. Each perseon in that list should also have a citation froma reliable, third-party source which states why they are notable (e.g., former minister, royalty, etc). Similar inclusion criteria should be applied to the List of villages - a list is not necessary, if the villages are not notable.
Some of the specific claims, such as that about the initial nomination for inclusion in the World Heritage Site, should be cited. If there are no sources for said claim, then it should not be in Wikipedia.
In general, more citing and a general NPOV skim would be helpful. No-one should take any of these suggestions personally, these are just some ideas, and tips which I believe would make the article better. The history and culture sections are sound, it is really just the lists which are an immediate concern — cut them down. If you cannot source them, cut them. Jame§ugrono 04:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Unholy Aliance
I see that a group of wiki users, greeks I presume, are undoing my edits repeatedly. I fear these greeks have clearly a megali idea ultranationalist agenda which they are pursueing thoroughly and roughlessly. My experience is limited since I am new to wikipedia, hence I would like to invite the admins to take the necessary counter-measures. Back to the article, the Greek or Vlach toponym are totally superfluos, since neither of these languages is official in Albania, nor there is any indigeneous greek or vlach speaking community in the city. So far not a single source has been brought to attest the countrary. Let alone the sentence of being centre of greekness is at least ridicuous. As une user has written precedntly "The city itself is almost entirely Albanian populated with the Greek minority living in the adjacent villages(namely Dropul, Droviani etc.). The city itself gave birth to a number of Albanian nationalists, artists and politicians(most notorious being Enver Hoxha). The city itself was built under the Ottoman period and shows architecture typical of the Ottoman Empire and formed part of what was unofficially recognized as Arnavutluk. Before then it was nothing more than a fortress that from the 14th century onwards passed from one Albanian tribal lord to another." As it is seen here [9] in the diary of John Cam Hobhouse of his travels with Lord Byron in 1810s Gjirokastra is refered as a city inhabited by Turks e.i. moslems. But seems to me that no one here is interested on the truth but only on their fascist ultranationalist agendas. Asdreni (talk) 00:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- If it was indeed the center of the Greek community, we could expect the list of Famous Gjirokastrites to include at least one Greek name -- yet it curiously does not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr#Famous_Gjirokastrites . I am appalled at the level of organized nationalist activity on Wikipedia (the disease is so far beyond this single article). There is not one article on Wikipedia where ethnic nationalistic interests are involved that can be fully trusted today.
- In this article's instance, anyone who has lived in Gjirokaster knows full well that there are a handful of Greek speaking villages surrounding the city, but not a single pocket within. Regardless, it is commendable that Wikipedia is attempting to source articles. In this instance, the two sources cited are quite funny.
- Source 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr#cite_note-0) literally describes the region nearly 100 years ago, yet the person who cites the source misleads the reader to make it appear the source is speaking about the present day (read the source link through and you will see).
- Source 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr#cite_note-1, http://mondediplo.com/maps/albanianmdv1999) clearly cites the source of the map. "Sources : Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995." Anyone who has read the Albanian Question by Rexhep Qosja (read it here: http://www.albanianhistory.net/en/texts20_2/AH1994.html) knows that no such map is included in that essay. Nor are any statistics of ethnic populations listed. The map is unfortunately wrong (or wrongly sources) and the source listing should be removed until further clarification. Do note that Le Monde diplomatique has complete editorial autonomy from Le Monde, the mainstream French newspaper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Monde_diplomatique#Le_Monde_diplomatique_SA) and can not be described as such.
- --216.254.86.19 (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Famous Gjirokastrits
Re this dispute. Firstly, easiest thing is to alphabeticize the list, which avoids all the subjective issues over who's most famous. Secondly, the sole criteria for inclusion are notability and being from Gjirokastër; ethnicity is not an issue. I suggest letting this be decided by editors who don't have any partisan stake in this. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 14:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Well, notability is one thing that the 2 vlachs(now called greeks) dont have --Sarandioti (talk) 14:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Either way, I have no problem with your edit. --Sarandioti (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
- OK, I've just looked more closely, and I agree with your doubts about the notability of Dimitrios Hatzipolyzoy; at least in English language sources, all that can be found about him is that he acquired a fortune in Wallachia and gave a "large endowment" to a high school. If that's all, he doesn't look worth including. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 14:45, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Clear pov approach by a suspected meatmuppet (e.g. Vlachs, no Greeks? suppose u need source for that claim). I agree off course with the alphabetical order. On the other hand, Sara's comments are entirely unencyclopedic (no wonder beeing blocked twice in a 3 day period). Also, what about the unsourced personalities that need a source since 2008? (are they more notable than the sourced ones?) Suppose they need a cleanup if something in English isnt found about them.Alexikoua (talk) 14:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Its Sarandioti, not Sara. So use it correctly greko. You forget that my block was initially for a month and then reduced to 3 days. And no im not suspected for recruiting others or anything else. About the vlachs presented as greeks. What exactly makes them notable? They are unknown even to 99,99999999% of even greeks --Sarandioti (talk) 15:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
cleanup
I cleaned up this article, particularly the notable inhabitants section which seemed inflated with non-notable individuals for the well-known reasons. Some of them citation tags had been there for over a month now. --Athenean (talk) 06:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Bajo and Çerçiz Topulli
Both brothers are famous leaders and Albanian Independence fighters they are buried in Gjirokastër and a statue of Çerçiz is laying in the middle of main square of Gjirokastër.
some of sources mentioning them:
- Aux origines du nationalisme albanais: la naissance d'une nation majoritairement musulmane en Europe Author Nathalie Clayer Publisher KARTHALA Editions, 2007 ISBN 2845868162, 9782845868168 page 567
- History of the Balkans: Twentieth century Author Barbara Jelavich Edition illustrated, reprint Publisher Cambridge University Press, 1983 ISBN 0521274591, 9780521274593 page 87
- The crescent and the eagle: Ottoman rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913 Author George Walter Gawrych Edition illustrated Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845112873, 9781845112875 page 91
- Preparation for a revolution: the Young Turks, 1902-1908 Author M. Şükrü Hanioğlu Publisher Oxford University Press US, 2001 ISBN 019513463X, 9780195134636 page 257
- Late Ottoman society: the intellectual legacy Author Elisabeth Özdalga Editor Elisabeth Özdalga Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 2005 ISBN 0415341647, 9780415341646 page 302
- The Sufi Journey of Baba Rexheb By Frances Trix Edition illustrated Publisher University of Pennsylvania Press, 2009 ISBN 1934536121, 9781934536124 page 58
- Zwischen Feudalismus und Stalinismus: albanische Geschichte des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts Author Thomas Kacza Publisher Trafo, 2007 Original from the University of Michigan ISBN 389626611X, 9783896266118 page 32-33-34
- Die albanische Nationalbewegung Author Johannes Faensen Publisher Harrassowitz [in Komm.], 1980 Original from the University of Michigan page 69
- Études balkaniques Author Institut za balkanistika (Bŭlgarska akademii︠a︡ na naukite) Publisher Edition de lA̕cadémie bulgare des sciences, 1986 Original from the University of Michigan page 56
- 1912-1925 Publisher Oldenbourg Wissenschaftsverlag, 1973 ISBN 3486475711, 9783486475715 page 97
Aigest (talk) 07:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Meatmuppetry using completely irrelevant edit summaries
The article has been recently a target of specific ips that insist on readding a specific part from a questionable source [[10]][[11]][[12]]. On one occasion the edit summary was mystiriously wrong [[13]] (...you can't use wikipedia as a source) ?.
Since helsinki monitor is highly criticed Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch, it should be treated with high precaution. On the other hand, James Petiffer, an expert on Albanian related topics here [[14]] describes the town as 'home of a large Greek speaking population', which is a more neutral approach, without adding specific numbers of questionable value.Alexikoua (talk) 22:31, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for participating so late in the discussion but I just saw this. Sources don't contradict each other as 4000 is a large Greek speaking population. I think that the Helsinki source should be used in the article as it indicates the number of the community while Pettifer is too vague. The Helsinki monitor is a highly respectable source and posting another wikipedia article to say "it's not reliable" isn't a way of proving that the source is actually biased etc.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is your personal opinion. Actually there is an entire article Criticism of Human Rights Watch devoted on that. As far I see every other sources that include this estimation (like this [[15]] state the hrw numbers are based on the 1989 totalitarian census which makes it defacto unreliable) are carefull and mention that this is a 'Human Rights Watch' estimation. Since this number is not only unconfirmed but also outdated a more general approach like: 'home to a large' or 'significant community' is appropriate. No wonder that Petiffer, a specialist on the field, completely ignores this estimations.Alexikoua (talk) 21:10, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Pettifer doesn't say that the Helsinki Monitor is unreliable and he doesn't contradict it. Another wikipedia article isn't proof for anything so don't use it as a piece of evidence to prove that the Helsinki Monitor is unreliable. The university of Köln doesn't say that the Helsinki monitor copies 1989 data and it also says that 40%-70% of the Greek speaking population have migrated to Greece. Also the source refers to number estimations about Sarande in a 1999 Helsinki publication.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Criticism of Human Rights Watch contains dozens of sources. Athenean (talk) 21:39, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- As I said, Helsinki should be treated with caution, as every third part source does the same with it (&Petiffer ignores it). I've explained my arguments about that but it seems we have another 'revert ready' situation like in talk:Skanderbeg.Alexikoua (talk) 21:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't made even 1 edit in this article and you're accusing me? I'm not even going to reply to these accusations. You said that Pettifer ignores Helsinki, which simply never happened. Same case with the University of Koln which also says that 40-70% of the Greek speaking population has migrated to Greece. The government of Eritrea or Ethiopia or any other country whose citizens human rights are violated may of course consider the HM unreliable, but that isn't a piece of evidence showing that the HM is unreliable.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but this is a piece of evidence and it's not only Erytrea or Ethiopia off course. It's really mysterious why disagree on changing '4,000' (questioned and outdated estimation) with just saying 'significant' or 'large community' (taken by a confirmed source).Alexikoua (talk) 22:48, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- That's the HM estimation so it's not outdated and about it being questioned there is no proof of that. Pettifer is too vague while the HM is specific and none contradicts each other. Yeah, except Eritrea and Ethiopia there's also Venezuela expressing that the human rights report on Venezuela was just another American "attack". --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:56, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- If someone clicks on the hm book he will realise that this is publiched in 1996, and so the 4,000 estimation is outdated too ( no wonder when the book was written the total population of the city was still 30,000). I suggest you click on the source before you make any conclusions about it.Alexikoua (talk) 23:12, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Pettifer's book was published in 1994 by the Minority Rights Group which is a NGO closely related to the HRW. Maybe you didn't check it before posting it. With the given data the report isn't outdated and of course it'll be updated after the 2010 national census of Albania results get published in early 2011. It seems that you were posting the work of group related to the HRW and at the same time you were claiming that the HRW isn't reliable as opposed to the MRG.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:23, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please move from lead paragraph into a "Demographics section" and also use numbers from NGO. I am against entering any information on demographics in the lead paragraphs. We should not even mention that there are Greeks in Gjirokaster because it's not what defines Gjirokaster. Gjirokaster is a very Albanian city and produced Enver Hoxha and Ismail Kadare, the two most famous Albanians of the last 40 years in the world. Have there been any Greeks in Gjirokaster? Possibly, but every Albanian that reads that "Gjirokaster is the center of the Greek minority" in the lead paragraph will know that who wrote this article is not an Albanian, but a Greek POV pusher. In fact the lead paragraph, as it's written, is highly POV. Take for example Kumanovo in FYROM. It has 27k Albanians and 63k Macedonians, so almost one third of the population are Albanians, but no one writes that in the lead paragraph. That's not what defines Kumanovo and is not relevant to be in the lead. In fact it will always create controversy. In Gjirokaster, let's say that Greeks are really 4k (even though I think ZjarriRrethues is right on the money to want to use the Minority Rights Group source). 4/34=12% (barely), very far even from the 30% number of Kumanovo. I propose that a section Demographics be added in the article similar to that of Kumanovo. Now regarding the continuous accusations that Hoxha's regime was totalitarian. Alexikoua, you probably should know that a totalitarian regime had very little movement. --sulmues (talk) 01:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am also opposed to mentioning specific figures in the lead, however the fact that Gjirokaster is the center of the Greek community in Albania, and also has other ethnicities, such as Aromanians, is of course extremely important and needs to stay in the lead. Athenean (talk) 03:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for agreeing that there should be no numbers in the lead. I still think that saying that Gjirokastra is the center of the Greek community is not supported by any of the provided sources. In page 119 of the HR book and in the Gjirokastra.org source the claim is not supported. Pettifer says active centre of irredentist ambition, referring to the beginning of the 20th century, not center of Greek community. All your claim in the lead is based on Pettifer's "Center of Hellenism" in page 11. However if you have to marry this wording with the number, you might get some bad results, as the Greeks of Gjirokaster are mostly all gone to Greece now with very few of them still residents in Gjirokaster, so the demographics would be very small, especially for the lead. The center of the greek community is in Tirana for that matter through their representatives elected mostly in Dropull. In relation to the Aromanians: I don't think they should be mentioned in the lead. There are very few of them. In addition, Gjirokaster is not an Aromanian settlement. Even full Aromanian settlements in Greece don't have any numbers in the lead and not always they are mentioned in Aromanian (see Grevena, Vrysochori, Vovousa, Konitsa, Kefalovryso, and Iliochori). --sulmues (talk) 03:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
If Pettifer calls it a "Center of Hellenism", that's more than good enough. The rest of your post, about "marrying" it with the (unreliable) figure is OR and I'm not interested in it. Gjirokaster is and has been the center of the Greek community in Albania, and that is sufficiently notable and well-sourced to go in the lead. I am not interested in OR and word-games. Athenean (talk) 04:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but he did that in 1994. After that all the Greeks were gone. --sulmues (talk) 05:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
40-70% of the Greek population has migrated to Greece. So we could add that in the demographics section(if there is decided to write it)--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
By noon I'll have made a proposal about a demographics section and we can talk about it.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I suggest to remove the part 'center of the Greek minority' and add: 'capital of the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus' as per lead. So the lead will be:
Apart from the Albanian population Gjir. is home to a (large/significant) Greek community, with additional communities of Aromanians and Roma. Gjir. was the capital of the short-lived Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus in 1914.
I believe this is more npov and in accordance to wp:lead than the present lead.Alexikoua (talk) 08:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I think we can add that in the history section but we'll discuss that later. As for the demographics section I was thinking of:
The city of Gjirokastër has a population of 34000 of which the majority are Albanians. There is also a significant minority of Greeks with the HRW reporting 4000 Greeks living in the city. There are also small communities of Aromanians and Roma.
--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- This proposal is completely wrong:
- the numbers are wrong: HM says 4,000 out of 30,000 (in 1996), which is dubious too, but Zajri prefers 4,000 out of 34,000: a completely wrong statement.
- 'the center of Greek community' is mysteriously ignored.
- Actually it was the capital of the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus, and this should be stated in lead as per wp:lead. A state's capital is essential info for the article and it should be added from start.
Sulmues mysteriously agrees but his previous statement is contradicting himself [[17]] (Thanks for agreeing that there should be no numbers in the lead.).Alexikoua (talk) 21:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- A region recognized as an autonomous entity isn't considered an independent state. Also I think there is an active disagreement on that sentence about Gjirokaster being a minority center, which you'll have to resolve(I may participate later in that discussion). The University of Koln says that 40-70% of the Greek population has left, so by saying 4000 out of 34000 is reasonable or we could change the sentence to "with the HW reporting 4000 Greeks living in the city in 1996."--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- The reason it is important to mention that Gjirokaster is the center of the Greek minority in Albania is not only that it is the center now, sourced to Pettifer, but that it has been the center for almost a century, ever since Albania was created in fact (which can also be sourced). To me, this just seems like yet another attempt by nationalist Albanian editors to remove everything and anything related to the Greek minority from the lead, and indeed the article itself. This has been going on (unsuccessfully) for years, and is unlikely to succeed now for obvious reasons, so I would advise editors to focus on ways to make the article better, not worse. Demographic statistics, such as those of HRW should be properly discussed in a Demographics section, not the lead, btw. Athenean (talk) 00:50, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not really against any inclusion but I insist on being accurate.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 01:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Prepare a proposal and we can discuss it. I have no problem on many issues, but a concrete proposal should be made.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 01:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- I already stated that I disagree with this appearing on the lead and that we should have:
- 1) Demographics in the section Demographics
- 2) The fact that was the capital of Northern Epirus in the history paragraph.
- Both claims are way too much to be in the lead as I have already said earlier with this edit ([18]). --sulmues (talk) 02:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
University
- The university has since its inception included a major for Greek language teachers. In 2006, the establishement of a Greek-language university in Gjirokastër was agreed upon after discussions between the Albanian and Greek governments [10].
We'll have to update and remove that, because in November 2009 Greek courses were terminated because of the extremely low number of students and disagreements between the Latsi foundation and the Greek state, and the agreement for the Greek-language was discontinued because of the same reasons.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
It's been about a month without even one other opinion, so I'm removing it. For more read: [19].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- It doesn't say due to 'low number of students', suppose this is your personal view. Moreover, this: Historically, Gjirokastër has been known to produce some of the leading revolutionary figures in Albanian history such as Cerciz Topulli and Bajo Topulli as well as Greek history such as Kyriakoulis Argyrokastritis. Is simply wp:peacock (mysteriously Zjarri. removed only the second part), since we have the notable people section this needs to go. (If they did something specific in Gjirokaster then read it down, if they were just born there we have the peoples section).Alexikoua (talk) 13:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I removed the second part explaining the reasons of this action. Kyriakoulis is not known in Greece or Albania and he wasn't a "leading revolutionary figure".--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- He was the second in command of the 1828 Cretan revolution (everyone in Greece knows what Drosoulites means). Anyway, I dont see why Gjirokaster is more notable as a birth place of revolutionaries than of authors (Kadare), politicians (Hoxha) or benefactos (Vasileiou). I don't see why such a sentence should be kept since we have the 'notable people' section. Hope we agree on that.Alexikoua (talk) 14:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- What's going on here? The state department source says: During a September visit by the prime minister to Greece, the government agreed to cooperate in the building of a Greek-language university in the city of Gjirokaster to be funded by the Greek government. . Is there a valid explanation for this removal? Athenean (talk) 16:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- The reference is old and since then many things have changed such as the organizational problems and the low number of students (34) which lead to the Greek language course being terminated, the Latsi foundation not wanting to donate funds any longer, the universities of Greece not supporting the course etc etc. So the deal for the university was terminated too because of all those reasons.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- I posted a reference above and I can post a dozen more if needed, but I don't think that it is necessary.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Um, no, the reference you posted talks about something else (a department), not the creation of a separate university, which is what the state department talks about. Two completely different things. And nowhere does your source say that it was discontinued due to low attendance and lack of interest. Either you misunderstood the source or else you are making it up. How is your Greek these days anyway? Athenean (talk) 17:05, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- That university was supposed to become a reality with the funds of Latsi and the university of Ioan. but because that agreement was terminated there will be no university. The subject was on hold and it was terminated. I can provide more references, but I don't think it's necessary for those who understand the situation. About the low numbers and the organizational problems you may want to read these [20] [21]. Both websites have copied the articles from newspapers.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Nonsense. First of all, blogs and self-published websites are not reliable sources, and your assurances that they "copied the articles from newspapers" are meaningless. Even then, neither of these two "sources" claim that the department was discontinued because of low interest in the Greek language. They claim that Eqrem Cabej university itself suffers from low enrollment and may shut down, not that the Greek language department itself has low enrollment. Actually, I read that the department had 35 students enrolled, which is hardly low enrollment. Oh and by the way, if your "references" consist of blogs and self-published websites, please don't bother "providing" them. Athenean (talk) 17:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Athenean, I already said that the articles are copied from newpapers and the 2 websites state that clearly. Agon and proinos logos] are newspapers, not blogs. The websites at the end of the article clearly post the source.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Instead of showing me the main page of two random newspapers' websites, can you show me the actual articles in these newspapers where they say the department is shutting because of lack of interest in the Greek language, as you claim? Your assurances that the blogs you are quoting copied the information from these newspapers mean nothing without proof. Athenean (talk) 17:40, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- [22] and [23].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:48, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Very interesting, however, neither of these two articles backs your claim that the Greek language and literature department is shutting down because of lack of interest in the Greek language. The first article claims that the closure is due to internal politics of the University of Ioannina, which provides the lecturers. It has nothing to do with lack of interest among students in Gjirokaster. It also mentions 35 students are enrolled in the program, hardly "low enrollment". Your second source also doesn't back your claim: It says Eqerem Cabej university itself' is facing problems and the departments of Physics, Biochemistry, Mathematics and Kindergarten Education didn't function because of low enrollment. Not the Greek Language and Literature Department. Please read your sources more carefully in the future. Athenean (talk) 18:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- 35 students is a low number. For example the university of Vlorë has more than 120 students in each course.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:16, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- That's just an opinion, I know fully functional departments with far fewer students. For example the Classics department at my university only has 12 students enrolled but it works just fine. And moreover, low attendance is NOT the reason your sources claim the department was shut down in 2010. Read your sources carefully next time. And would you please indent using ":" correctly? Athenean (talk) 18:20, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Why do I have to do this?
Yeah, I am sanctioned until the end of June to explain every single revert unless they are obvious vandalisms. Now go explain that it IS a vandalism to remove the most powerful Albanian of the 20th century from Gjirokaster' notable people [24]. Can I choke Irvi Hyka, :-)?
Removal of important ethnographic information from the lead.
Undid a POV removal of the mention of the Greek minority from the lead. This information is extremely important, and it deserves to be in the lead. The Greek minority is mentioned throughout the article, and that the city is considered the center of the Greek minority in Albania is something that should not be hidden from our readers. After all, the place was the capital of a Greek autonmous region. I have absolutely no time for arguments of the type "Other Balkan city articles do not mention minorities in the lead." Each city, each country, and each minority is unique and we go on a case-by-case basis, there is not one-size-fits-all policy here. In the case of Himara, Saranda, and Gjirokaster, the Greek minority is sufficiently important that it warrants mention in the lead. Athenean (talk) 16:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- It wasn't POV at all but since you reverted him without any discussion I'll add on the lead of Filiates, Paramythia and Igoumenitsa that they were the centres of the Albanian minority of Greece since you're following such standards. Btw I'll create a names section since there are 3 names and I'll flesh it up a bit. All alternative names will be on that section since per policy and in Preveza we didn't mention the Albanian name in the lead because I started a section.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- There is a huge difference here. Filiates and Paramythia had former Albanian populations. There are zero Albanians there now. No one even remembers these former populations, except Albanian irredentists. Gjirokaster, on the other hand, is at the center of the controversy about the current, living, Greek minority in Albania, that is in the news almost every day. It was moreover the capital of a Greek state. Also, no need for a name section, since there are only two relevant foreign names: Greek and Aromanian. And Aromanian is not really appropriate for the lead since it is never used by English language sources. Anyway, talk about Filiates and other places is completely irrelevant here. Please propose things on the talkpage of each article as appropriate. This article seems to deal exclusively with Gjirokaster, thank you. Athenean (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)According to the sources on Cham Albanians there are up to 40.000 Albanians in an area of less than 100.000 people so that seems important enough to be on the lead. Btw since you don't have any sources about any other population number of the Greek minority of Gjirokaster you shouldn't edit-war to remove the statistics.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- This statistic is outdated and obviously wrong, since the total population increased during this period (why should the additional number ca. 13,000 be only Albanians? it's common logic).Alexikoua (talk) 17:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- According to the sources of Greeks in Albania most of the Greeks have migrated to Greece and can you support your deduction(false analogy) with a reliable source? --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- This statistic is outdated and obviously wrong, since the total population increased during this period (why should the additional number ca. 13,000 be only Albanians? it's common logic).Alexikoua (talk) 17:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Athenean, if you say that Gjirokaster is always in the news for the Greeks there please send me an article because I never heard any news. I disagree that that stays on the lede. Please stop being disruptive entering twice the information on demographics, per MOS lede should not be referenced. --Sulmues (talk) 11:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
OR
Let's not substitute what sources say with our own OR please [25]. Not cool. In contentious topics such as this, it is best to stick to the exact wording of the source as much as possible. Athenean (talk) 16:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- There is no OR. In case you didn't know the Greek Army occupied Albania at that time. Please start reading that article. --Sulmues (talk) 11:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I couldn't have known that, but took the map from the article, which in this version included Chameria. I saw you fixed it, excellent! However this thread is for the Occupation of Albania in 1913. --Sulmues (talk) 13:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Picture
In theory I have no problems that this historical pic [27] be placed in the article, however what is its relevance and are they really in Gjirokster? It seems like they are out of the city. Are we sure that they were in the city to take the picture? --Sulmues (talk) 16:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Drino can be seen from the city, as far I know there is plenty of bibliography that confirms this.Alexikoua (talk) 16:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Lede
Some of the recent edits to the lede are problematic. Specifically:
- The Principality of Gjirokaster and the Autonomous Republic are merely historical blips, lasting 31 years and 6 months, respectively. They had little lasting impact. This is not sufficient to warrant placement in the lede in my opinion.
- Universities are not typically mentioned in the lede. Even in the article on Heidelberg, which hosts an extremely famous university, the university is not mentioned in the lede.
- "Unknown number of ethnic Greeks ethnics" is simply atrocious. The previous version was much better. Also, why was the (sourced) statement about it being the center of the Greek minority removed? That is an important point. Athenean (talk) 07:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Reply: Alexikoua and I had a consensus on those: Gjirokaster was a capital both times during those periods, so it is relevant and may be mentioned in the lede. Actually I entered the Principality of Gjirokaster after Alexi entered the "ARNE". The former is way more important in the history of the city, because it lasted more. However no years (or months) were mentioned in the version that you reverted [28].
- Reply:On the university: Try Charlottesville. It mentions the University of Virginia or Blacksburg, Virginia, which mentions Virginia Tech. Gjirokaster is a really small town with a University: that's really nice. Actually why don't you also try Ioannina, the adjacent town on the other side of the border which mentions the University of Ioannina? You may want to try that lede since you are a Greek and probably know Janina better than Gjirokaster.
- Reply: this version could have been improved just by removing the twice mentioned word "ethnic".
- Reply: The fact of Gjirokaster being the center of the Greek minority. That's already in the demographics section, which by the way is outdated. The population of the Greeks was 4k in 1989: we simply don't know the number of the Greeks now, so mentioning that is controversial. We still are saying that there are Greek ethnics in the city, which is done nowhere in the Balkans and I still disagree with, still I'm keeping it for now. You brought the same references twice by the way and repeating the same information. The info that is a center of the Greek minority is in the Demographic secion.
As a result I'll bring back to my prior version, with the correction of twice mentioning the word ethnic, which I thank you for. --Sulmues (talk) 12:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
In addition: you didn't answer my question on the Greeks of Gjirokaster being in the news above Talk:Gjirokastër/Archive 1#Removal_of_important_ethnographic_information_from_the_lead.. Can you please answer my question before writing in new sections in the talk page? The Ohrid Agreement was something that happened after the Albanians in Macedonia were CONSISTENLY on the news with their Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia in 2001. Still in Macedonia we don't mention in the lede that Tetovo is the center of the Albanians population of Macedonia, and Tetovo is 60% Albanian: why should we behave differently for the Greeks of Gjirokaster, who are less than 10%? And don't tell me that that is a Tetovo problem. We have no problems with the Macedonian editors: the lede should not stir controversy: it is the most read piece of the article, but it should rely on good and strong paragraphs in the article. You may feel free to expand in the Demographics section. --Sulmues (talk) 12:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Mentioning that Tetovo is the centre of the Albanian population in that country in the lead would be fine because it's true (ethnic Albanian political parties are based there, etc.). But mentioning it in Debar's article isn't necessary because it isn't the centre of the Albanian community and it is not unique in having a large Albanian population. If Gjirokaster is the Greek equivalent to Tetovo, then its significance as the centre of the Greek community should probably be mentioned in the lead. That's what I think, at least. --Local hero talk 14:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- I personally happen to disagree that the Principality, Autonomous Republic, and University warrant placement in the lead, but I suppose I could live with that. What I will insist on, though, is the sentence that Gjirokaster is the center of Greek community. Not only because it is a well-known fact to anyone who is familiar with the Greek minority in Albania, but because it is sourced to a top-notch academic source (Pettifer) and is the focal point of all the Greek minority's activity in the country. Why else would Gjiorkaster have been selected as the Autonomous Republic's capital? Why else would Laiko vima be published there? Why else would the Greek government offer classes in Greek there. To anyone who is familiar with the Greek minority in Albania, everything revolves around Gjirokaster. That is something important, and our readers deserve to know it. The fact that is mentioned in the Demographics section does not prohibit it from being mentioned in the lede: The lede is a summary of the article's important points, and this *is* an important point. Like I said, I can live with the other edits, but I have to insist on the inclusion of this sentence in the lede. Athenean (talk) 16:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Actually Pettifer says "center of hellenism", not center of the Greek minority. There is a big difference between the two expressions: center of hellenism refers to Greek schools, Greek culture and so on that might be important in a historical context (Greek schools were first opened in cities and then in small rural areas), and have nothing to do with demographics. Those words of Pettifer seem to have been taken at face value and used for demographics, but we have to look as to how many Greeks there are in Gjirokaster, because chances are that there aren't many. The Greeks emigrated to Greece in 1991 onwards and we may have way less than 10% which was the %ge in 1989. The only center of the Greek minority is in Dropull, Gjirokaster is far from being a center of Greek ethnics, whatever "center" really means. As far as Laiko Vima is concerned: I guess it couldn't have published in Goranxi or other Dropull villages: usually publications are not done in rural centers. The capital of "ARNE": that's where the Greek Army wanted it: Albania was occupied by Greece. Had Greece occupied Shkoder, the capital would have been that one. In relation to the classes of Greek offered at both University and lower level: they are actually offered by the Albanian government, not the Greek one, because the Albanian government recognizes minority rights. In order to have teachers of Greek the University of Gjirokaster set up a branch for Greek studies. --Sulmues (talk) 17:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Please avoid this extreme oring strategy: completely wrong translation of term 'Hellenism', which also includes the 'national Greek character', also read wp:what wikipedia is not you are missing the most points.Alexikoua (talk) 16:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- The optimal wording in my opinion is "G is home to an ethnic Greek community, along with communities of Vlachs....", which is what it was for ages. "Community" is deliberately vague, making no judgements about who is the majority and minority, though it slightly implies Greeks are a minority. "Unknown" is inelegant and strange. Do we also say that it has an unknown number of Vlachs and Roma? Since the number of Greeks is "unknown", the number of Albanians is also "unknown". You all see where this is going. If one ethnic group is "unknown" so are all the others. "Community" is the most elegant and worked really well up until now. Athenean (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- We have the numbers of 1989: 4000 greeks and gypsies out of a total population of 34,000. That was less than 15% minorities to the Albanian majority. That's pure math. You seem to be working only on ledes nowadays. Please go down to the demographic section and take some time expanding your theories. --Sulmues (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, you've been using that number all over the place in the last year. Once that I corrected that the population is 43k rather than 34k, you started not to use it any longer because you realize that it is completely outdated. We have no sources for the ethnicities after 1989, but you insist in putting them in the lede. That's not encyclopedic: it is very little known what are the ethnicities in 2010. The article is unstable because it's unreliable. Do you want it to be unstable and unreliable? That's why I say to you to go down a little and work on the demographic section with some more dedication since you are interested about it. The demographic section has two lines, still you want to put it in the lede. It doesn't work that way: we have to have a strong article with strong references before putting anything in the lede. --Sulmues (talk) 21:19, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- What on Earth are you talking about? Me using the numbers of the 1989 census? You are completely mistaken. The 1989 census, taken when Albania was under a totalitarian regime, is worthless as far the numbers of ethnic minorities are concerned, and it is also heavily outdated. I never insist on exact figures for the Greek minority, because they don't exist. However, that a Greek community exists in the city is undeniable, only the most extreme of Albanian nationalists try to (unsuccessfully) do so. There is nothing wrong or controversial with saying that there is a Greek community in the city in the lede. You seem very eager to turn this into a GA, but I must warn you that in your eagerness to do so, you are starting to behave in a WP:OWN manner. Now, it seems to me that you can't come up with a single source that there is an Albanian majority in the city, which is why you are changing the subject. I repeat: No reliable (and you know what that means), contemporary source for the "Albanian majority", out it goes. Athenean (talk) 21:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)By tomorrow I'll have added the sources and btw I'll move the alternative names to the Names section since per WP:NCGN
- Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Selective interpretation of WP:NCGN to suit your ends. The Greek name is sufficiently important that it stays in the first line of the lead, Name section or not. Athenean (talk) 22:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's the policy and please read wp:own. Btw many sources also seem to use and mention the Gheg Albanian form so I'll add that too in the names section.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)It is a policy and this part of the policy is actually recommended when there are 3 or more alternative names. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Done. Btw don't use "this is based on the Albanian census of 1989" because the census was conducted in mid to late 1989 and published in 1990. Secondly even if this book was published in 1990 you would have to prove that it was based on that census. Btw I found 3-4 sources that place the Albanian population at more than two thirds of the city in the 19th century, but since this is about the modern era I didn't add them.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nope, the source is no good, it only mentions the county, it says *nothing* about the city. Athenean (talk) 21:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Our pains with this article would be less if we just think about how many mosques and how many churches there are in Gjirokaster. We know that in 1967 we had 13 mosques. How many churches did we have on that year? Probably 2 or 3 at the most. This tells you the percentages of the population (without mentioning that many of the Albanians are orthodox). --Sulmues (talk) 21:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Etymology
I repeat here the etymology of the city's name, since someone does not like and deletes it because it is Greek.
The original name is Gr. Argyrokastro, from the Greek word "Argyro" (silver) and the Latin "Kastro" (castle). Any problem?--Euzen (talk) 09:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- I never have a problem with any entries to wikipedia as long as they are fortified by a reliable source. --Sulmues (talk) 09:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Why then this etymology was erased from the article? --84.205.231.40 (talk) 11:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- I really don't know why, and I don't think I removed that. A dictionary is a reliable source, but unfortunately a tertiary one. Dictionaries and encyclopedias are tertiary sources. The Albanian dictionaries say that it comes from the name of Princess Argjiro. I personally don't believe any of them. And it's a good thing that in Wikipedia we have the rule of relying exclusively on secondary sources. Please read wp:secondary sources, find a good secondary source and only then enter that in the article. --Sulmues (talk) 11:10, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
- Even if it comes from some "Princess Argjiro" the etymology is the same. The female name Argyro (Gr. Αργυρώ) and the male "Anargyros" come from the Gr. argyros (silver). You can check it in any Greek-English dictionary online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.40 (talk) 08:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Actually I made some research and both theories are wrong. The city is mentioned in ancient times as Angelocastro, so both the Albanian Princess theory and the Greek etymological theory are wrong. However I still haven't found out whether those sources confuse Angelokastro, Aetolia-Acarnania with Gjirokaster, or both were named the same. --Sulmues (talk) 13:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Since it's a local legend not based on any facts, it should go anyway. Btw, are you sure you are not confusing Angelocastro with the Angelocastro in southern Greece (see Despotate of Angelokastro. I have never heard of Sinan Shabani, and have no reason to believe he is reliable. The etyomology of Argyrokastro is WP:OBVIOUS to anyone who speaks a word of Greek: A combination of "Argyro", meaning "silver", and "kastro", meaning "castle". I don't see how it could be simpler than that. Athenean (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- I mentioned myself the concern that there might be a confusion between Angelokastro, Aetolia-Acarnania and Gjirokaster, but why don't you like Sinan Shabani? It's not that I'm very fond of him myself, but that's the only source for now that we have. As far as the etymology from silver, it may very well be, but I will not accept any sources that are not secondary. There have been a lot of books on Gjirokaster and there should be one that investigates on the origin of the name. It's not as obvious as it seems. --Sulmues (talk) 21:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)So you're suggesting that the Greek name is the correspondent western spelling, however, that is very disruptive because apart from being unsourced it is also pov.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua this is the Italian spelling of the cities unless you think that Durrës is actually spelled as Durazzo in most European sources. It is interesting enough to be moved to the names section though since Britannica also has the Italian spelling of the city.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You don't need a source to understand that these are the Italian spellings(there's no western spelling), unless you think that Alessio is a common spelling for Lezhe or that Santi Quaranta is actually how most European sources call Sarande. Btw wikilawyering over obvious issues is considered disruptive.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Argirocastro is the Italian for Gjirokastër, actually "Western spelling" makes a little sense to me since I can assure about Italian but not about French i.e., maybe you can assume that most of "Western literature"'s source are mediate by Italian sources (since the region has been under Italian and Venetian influence for a looooooong time) but nothing more as I can see. --Vituzzu (talk) 23:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand what a Wastern spelling is. Those mentioned seem normal italian names but I don't know whether they are currently used out of Italy or not. If english speakers don't have a current name for Gjirokastër, they should adopt the albanian version, imho. --Pequod76 (talk-ita.esp.eng) 23:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- It means they are common in western languages or most of them: Argyokastro/Argyrocastro/Argirokastron etc. Unfortunatelly this is it, in the specific source the author uses Argyrokastro, which is appropriate per wp:nc. Removing all the rest but the Albanian isn't a reasonable strategy.Alexikoua (talk) 23:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Vituzzu is correct, Argirocastro is the Italian form and so are the other forms used in the source by Pearson. The best example would be Shëngjin, alias San Giovanni di Medua, clearly Italian, or Santi Quaranta, again the Italian form, or Durazzo, all Italian names basically, which Pearson is bringing. Indeed in the 1912-1939 period the British world would see Albania through Italian eyes: there was way too much Italian influence through the history. However Pearson is a primary source, to be used when lacking other sources, not as the first one. We have better. In addition his definition of "Western spelling" is clearly referring to the Italian and Venetian influence in the 13th to 18th centuries on Albania. Furthermore this is a book about 1912-1939 so it mostly refers to the names of the settlements for a century ago, so it can be used in a historical sense, not in the lede because it does not corrispond to today's name. Made the edit to take out Pearson as a reference for the above reasons. [30] One more thing: I would love to see some people who worry only and exclusively about the name origin and the minorities of Gjirokaster and have written on this article for three whole years, start contributing at other areas, such the Economy section or anything similar. Working on an article for a settlement in Albania just reverting what the Albanians are writing and not making a true contribution to the article for the purpose of bringing this article to higher statuses is a clear case of disruptive editing.--Sulmues (talk) 00:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- It means they are common in western languages or most of them: Argyokastro/Argyrocastro/Argirokastron etc. Unfortunatelly this is it, in the specific source the author uses Argyrokastro, which is appropriate per wp:nc. Removing all the rest but the Albanian isn't a reasonable strategy.Alexikoua (talk) 23:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand what a Wastern spelling is. Those mentioned seem normal italian names but I don't know whether they are currently used out of Italy or not. If english speakers don't have a current name for Gjirokastër, they should adopt the albanian version, imho. --Pequod76 (talk-ita.esp.eng) 23:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Argirocastro is the Italian for Gjirokastër, actually "Western spelling" makes a little sense to me since I can assure about Italian but not about French i.e., maybe you can assume that most of "Western literature"'s source are mediate by Italian sources (since the region has been under Italian and Venetian influence for a looooooong time) but nothing more as I can see. --Vituzzu (talk) 23:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Etymology is always a good subject for lenthy discussion with many historical ramifications. I believe that the Greek-Latin-western version of all toponymes of Balkans and Asia Minor and Middle East should always be given in Wikipedia articles. The reason is that classical literature (travels, archaeology, history etc) refer to the cities with their historical names. So, if you do a scholarly google search for "Argirokastro" (or Argyrokastro, Argyro Kastro etc) you will find some valuable original sources like this from 1815: p. 160 http://books.google.gr/books?id=NCkOAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA160&lpg=RA2-PA160&dq=argyrokastro+history&source=bl&ots=t5_LHYamxp&sig=QlWr3nyjlhBOgRuOxc60AhzsuEE&hl=el&ei=FPF9TJynC5CTswbl2PyVCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q&f=false an interesting book btw, describing among others the harem of Ali Pasha. But if you search for “Gjirocaster” you will get thousands of Albanian sites with tourist info, hotels, bars, youtube videos, facebooks and other information that is pretty useless and annoying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.40 (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- You have a point, but I would still put that in the name section and see if it's strong enough to go to the lede. Again, if the article isn't strong in its wording, things can't go directly to the lede. --Sulmues (talk) 12:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Per this source [31] the city is mentioned for the first time by Johan Kantacuzenos in 1336 with the name of Argyrocastron. It should be John VI Kantakouzenos, I believe. It is more reliable than Shaban Sinani, made change accordingly. Still I would need some help with this because John VI Kantakouzenos was an emperor, whereas the source mentions him as a chronist, so I would like from the Greek editors some help on Kantakouzenos named chronists of that time, unless of course John VI was also a chronist. --Sulmues (talk) 22:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, this can be verified by additional material [[32]][[. The city was first mentioned by him during the Byzantine civil war.Alexikoua (talk) 06:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- There were some Ioannes (John) Kantakouzenos in the byzantine history, but the historian is really the Emperor Ioannes VI Kantakouzenos. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BYZANTIUM%2012611453.htm#_Toc177455185
You may find him also as Ioannis Cantacuzenus. I found online his book Ioannis Cantacuzeni Eximperatoris Historiarum but you may find online some more editions as well. You see now why I insist on historical greek, latin or westernized spellings for the serious reader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.40 (talk) 11:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- I see and I already told you that you have a point. And by now I fully well know who you are (because I just assume so, :-)). In general my problem is working on ledes only without a good body. In my opinion until the body of the article hasn't reached B class, the lede should be a line or two. In fact there are many things that still have to go to the body of the article, we just don't know what's important yet to go to the lede. I expect this article to be at least 40Kb before going to GA status and we're not there yet as far as content is related. I would expect all the editors of this article give their honest contributions before trying to put Greek names in the lede only. For instance I was seeing discussions of two years ago and it was exactly the same thing. In the article we still don't have anything for the religious aspects of the city: it is heavily influenced by Bektashism and we're not giving the true character of Gjirokaster which is fundamentally a well preserved Ottoman city like few have been left in the Balknas. if we don't expand on that, we still haven't done much. Caring that the lede contains the importance Greek minority when we have a very poor and controversial demographic section is just disrupting the process of building a good article. @Alexi, I will add Kiel to my source. --Sulmues (talk) 12:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
You sound honest but you will never get a serious article if you don't get rit of the Albanian nationalism and the attempt to hide anything Greek. See my discussion on "Notable People". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.40 (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Economy Section
We may safely use this source to describe the economy of the city during communism and later after 1990s, but let me know if someone disagrees. --Sulmues (talk) 01:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
The site has also valid info which may safely go to the Culture section. For example it talks about the 17th century Madrassa and also about the 15 mosques, of which only one survived the 1967 Cultural Revolution destructions. The site belongs to an NGO financed by Packard Humanities Institute. --Sulmues (talk) 01:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
GA status
In order for the city to reach GA status more work should be done with the landmarks which are redlinks in the template:Gjirokaster in the bottom. Once that those redlinks have been filled and articles started, and the economy section is complete with at least well referenced 10 lines, then I think the article may apply safely and obtain GA status. Could someone please let me know if I'm missing anything else? --Sulmues (talk) 12:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- we need more pictures of the castle and inside of the city, the one in "History" is low quality and not the prettiest sight, so is the one in the UNESO template, search Gjirokaster in google for examples of what pictures are needed. Also, the history section can be expanded (the plane that was captured, communist times etc.) --Cradel (talk) 15:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Pics are fine and dandy, but in GA the most important piece is content and wording, which is something we're still behind. Agreed that the communist times should be presented better, that's why I brought the above link of the NGO in the prior paragraph. Go ahead and make some edits there, please. --Sulmues (talk) 15:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Notable People
Obvious the pro-albanian bias. Some "notable people" are referred to as "albanians" but none as "Greek". The funny is that even Greeks are declared as Albanians, e.g. Gregory IV Argyrokastritis of Athens. A man who brought several other greeks from Argyrokastro to South Greece to fight against the Turks, a man who became bishop and archbishop in the newly liberated Athens, a man who translated the Gospell to Albanian and printed it with Greek alphabet. On what basis this man is "Albanian"? Did he call himshelf so? References are in Greek language and I don't know if are of any use for the non-greek speackers. I wouldn't bother, anyway, because my contribution would probably be erased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.40 (talk) 09:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- Bring your sources, even if they are in Greek, it's OK. Provided your source are reliable, your work will NOT be erased, I can guarantee you that. Athenean (talk) 17:32, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sulmues, do not WP:BITE the newcomers, or you will be reported as well. Athenean (talk) 17:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- 84. isn't a newcomer and he has been blocked in the past so Athenean no WP:BITE. Btw comments like the one 84 made on Grigor Gjirokastriti can easily be considered disruptive.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sulmues, do not WP:BITE the newcomers, or you will be reported as well. Athenean (talk) 17:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Source falsification
Undid this [33] as a clear example of source falsification. The source says "in my father's time", which would be 100+ years ago. Yet this is used to claim that the city "currently" has an Albanian population. Clear misuse of sources if there ever was such a thing. Athenean (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Charles Moskos' Autobiography
The claim that "Albanian Muslims historically made up 75% of the city's population" is problematic for two reasons. First, it is sourced to the autobiography of Charles Moskos, who is neither a historian nor a demographer, and never set foot in the place. He is just mentioning his father's background. Second, it was badly phrased, as it implied that Albanian Muslims were *always* 75% of the city's population, which is obviously not true. Athenean (talk) 02:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Problematic edit of Athenean
This edit is problematic and I reverted it. Gjirokaster is closely connected to the history of Albania, its culture and much else. It's this kind of edit that makes Wikipedia a worse place. Try to make constructive edits next time please. Should I mention that such edit was preceded by this other edit, which makes me think that the editor is using Byzantine mentality? --Sulmuesi (talk) 03:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
- Lord almighty, here we go again. Just when we finally had some peace and quiet around here. My patience with you is completely exhausted. Make one more trolling comment like the above and I will take you to AE faster than you can say WP:NPA. For the record Geography of Albania and History of Albania do not mention Gjirokaster, while the 3 articles I added do. I have no idea what you mean by "Byzantine mentality", but in the future make sure you keep such comments to yourself. Athenean (talk) 03:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
- Athenean has been long enough editing in this article to know that for eg Gjirokastër is one of tourist attractions of Albania (UNESCO city) , makes part of History of Albania and surely is within Albanian geography. If the above articles do not mention Gjirokastër than the most logical thing to do is to put the name of Gjirokastër in those articles and not removing them. This kind of behavior fuels edit wars. Aigest (talk) 10:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
See also sections
- Alexikoua Sulmuesi is joking and he's not really making npa comments so assume a bit of good faith, since he came back with a DYK.
- See also sections are for articles that aren't already wikified throughout the article.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:50, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
Placing this article
Under GA nomination. Hopefully it's going to make it. I expanded "Economy", referenced a little more, and filled some redlinks. If there is anything else I'll leave it to the major contributors of this article. For now asked a Copy-editing favor. Besokontrollo (talk) 03:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Congratulations. Very good start!Alexikoua (talk)
GA Review
| GA toolbox |
|---|
| Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Gjirokastër/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: --Tea with toast (talk) 05:42, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Review
- It is reasonably well written.
- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (references):
b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
Thank you for providing the new citation. I find the changes made to be appropriate.
- a (references):
- It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
- a (major aspects):
- It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- Fair representation without bias:
- While there have been past concerns expressed on the talk page about article bias, I find that the article content as it is now to be balanced.
- Fair representation without bias:
- It is stable.
- No edit wars, etc.:
- I have some reservations about giving this the okay. I was concerned by the comments left on [my talk page], and I became even more concerned after searching through the article's history and reading the heated debates on the talk page. There appears to be too much Greek/Albanian tension here. However, it appears that most of the turmoil occurs on the talk pages – which is where debates should be held – and I am satisfied with the results of those discussions and satisfied that the article contents are not biased. Still, I will remind editors to be polite in future discussions.
- No edit wars, etc.:
- It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
- a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):
- Overall:
- Pass/Fail:
- I find this article to be worth of GA status; however, knowing the article's history, I will keep an eye on it, and I will not be afraid to remove its GA status if the article becomes a battleground for any edit war in the future.--Tea with toast (talk) 06:40, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Pass/Fail:
![[26]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Principalities_and_Despotates_of_Epirus_1370-1415.jpg){kind=link}
Additional suggestions for improvement
I have some additional suggestions for improving the article. The inclusion of these items are not necessary to achieve GA status, but probably will for feature article status.
- I do not know if it is necessary to have "Main article: Luftëtari Gjirokastër" at the top of the Sports section. If there are other sports played in the town (which I would think there are and in which case the section would need expansion), then this can not be the main article. You could place "See also" instead, but I am not sure that is necessary since there is a link to the article within the text.
- The lead could be stronger. I would include one more sentence about the recent history (post-1914) of the city. Through the entire test of the article (especially the history section), keep in mind the structure of your paragraphs. A paragraph should center around a single topic, if there is too much info, split it up. I took the liberty of moving 2 sentences from the second paragraph in the lead (which were mostly unrelated to the other sentences in the paragraph)and placed it into the third.
- IPA pronunciation would be helpful
Happy editing! --Tea with toast (talk) 19:43, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Vodhinë
I removed some sentences Alexikoua had about Vodhinë, because it's not near the city(even Delvinë and Libohovë are nearer to Gjirokastër than Vodhinë), but the info is still interesting so adding it in an article like Kakavia for example would be better like Dropull i Sipërm(the settlement of Bularat is the nearest one to Vodhinë).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk21:21, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
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Town vs District
In the demographic section there is a sentence "although Greek spokesmen have claimed that up to 32% of the town is Greek" backed by this reference link It we take a look at the source we can see that the claim is about the population in the villages of the districts of Gjirokastër and Sarandë and not the towns themselves. "Such was the case with 99 villages in the southern districts of Sarandë and Gjirokastër, where the Greek population was concentrated. Greek spokesmen claimed that 34% of the population of Gjirokastër and 42% of the population of Sarandë was Greek. If a few Albanians settled in one of those villages, its minority inhabitants lost their distinct rights;..." While we see that this source has been misused in the article by "adding" the word town. I will remove it immediately, as an obvious case of falsification of sources. Aigest (talk) 11:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
- No, it's pretty obvious that he is referring to the towns. If he meant the districts, he would have said "Saranda district" and "Gjitokaster district". But when "Saranda" and "Gjirokaster" are used by themselves, that means the towns. No source falsification of any kind. Athenean (talk) 21:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- The author does not say the population of towns, it is you that add that word by committing source falsification. You are extrapolating text from the context of whole paragraph. The author makes it clear that he is talking about the districts. In the same paragraph the author uses two times the term of villages and also district and he never uses the word town
- The paragraph is composed of three sentences in the first sentence the author says specifically that the greek population is concentrated in the villages of the districts of Gjirokaster and Sarande "...villages in the southern districts of Sarandë and Gjirokastër, where the Greek population was concentrated". In the second sentence the author mentions the claims of Greek spokesmen about the supposed number of Greek population in Girokaster and Sarande, and in the third sentence he continues with villages " If a few Albanians settled in one of those villages.." It is clear that he is talking about the population in the districts, otherwise the claim about the population in the "towns" is not linked logically in any way with the previous and the next sentence of the same paragraph.
- I would also like to add that the author is not omitting the word "town" in that sentence on purpose. When he wants to talk about the population in the "towns" he says so specifically, as he does in the next paragraph when he interestingly uses the term "cities" and not "towns"link
- It is clear that you are extrapolating text (and also adding unused terms) from the context of whole paragraph, by committing a falsification of sources. Stop it. Aigest (talk) 08:56, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not going to argue this point with someone who is not a native speaker of English. If it's not obvious to you that "Saranda" and "Gjirokaster", when used by themselves, refer to the towns and not the districts, I have nothing to say to you. Besides, all you've ever done in this article is try to reduce, remove, or water-down any mention of a Greek minority, so if anyone needs to "stop it", it's you. Athenean (talk) 09:02, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- My personal involvement in this article is only about the veracity of sources. I've cleared one false claim before in October and I am doing it again now. Leave aside personal attacks and respond to the points I mentioned above. Don't try to put this debate in ethnic terms. As you can see I am not accusing you of enlarging, exaggerating etc the numbers of Greek minority. My concern is about the falsification of sources and in my opinion you are doing it.
- P.S in my previous edit in October I added the term "substantial" to Greek minority and this term was not before in text. If you think that is to water-down numbers(?!), than we have a communication problem Aigest (talk) 09:17, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Synonyms and connotations
You know, even if everything in the districts and towns of Saranda and Gjirokaster were to be obliterated by a nuclear explosion, I think there would still be Wikipedians fussing over the precise ethnic origins of the radioactive cinders.
Now, I would like to politely ask you all to please stop referring to "falsification" of sources. This is because "falsification", in this context, implies malfeasance. It implies that the other person knows X, but is deliberately stating not-X. It implies that the other person is lying.
You may describe the other editor's interpretations as being wrong, or incorrect.
That said, it is typical, in English, for the phrases "Q District" and "District of Q" to be equivalent in meaning. However, I acknowledge that the individual being quoted was a Greek-speaker, and therefore may not have been as natively familiar with English connotation and sentence structure. I suggest that, rather than using either of the two conflicting interpretations, the source be directly quoted. DS (talk) 13:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- The source uses neither "District of Q" or "Q district", only "Q", which I think is obvious refers to "Q" itself. The author being quoted moreover is a native English speaker (Bugjaski). If he had meant "distric of Q" or "Q district", then he would have done so. But he only says "Q" and this is the article in "Q". And yes, I agree, accusing people of source falsification all the time is assuming bad faith and a personal attack. Athenean (talk) 16:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- It's quite obvious that the author was referring to districts and not the actually city. In any case, this is just a pointless red herring. The context of the reference talks about Greek irredentism and relates it to the claiming of territory by Greek parties in Albania because of an existence of a certain minority. This is exactly what is going on here and what the author of the book was talking about.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Nope, it's pretty obvious he is referring to the towns, not the districts. If he wanted to refer to the districts, he would have done so by referring to the "district of Q" or "Q district". He mentions "Gjirokaster", this is the article on "Gjirokaster". I really don't see how it could be any simpler. Athenean (talk) 21:17, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- According to the context the author of the book refers to the towns and not the districts. If this was about the districts he could write "district of X" as he always did on the specific paragraph. In general the the book talks about persecution of minority rights and not irredentism.Alexikoua (talk) 19:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
If, in other places in the book, Bugjaski refers to districts by including the word "district" in their name, then the instances in which he does not include the word "district" are therefore references to the eponymous town and not to the district.
I've lost track of whose argument I'm supporting here, or who's on which side, and frankly I don't care. If Bugjaski refers to "Gjirokaster District" or "District of Gjirokaster", then he means the district. If he says "Gjirokaster" without "District" immediately pre- or post-pended, then he is referring to the town. This applies to any source by Bugjaski which references a toponym used both by a town and a district.
I would also like you all to consider that "minority rights" and "irredentism" can be the exact same thing, viewed from different stances. DS (talk) 21:13, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- My argument was about the whole paragraph. If you take the time to read it all you can see that the specific sentence makes sense only if he is talking about the population in the districts. That sentence is in the middle of paragraph you can not extrapolate it, giving a different meaning. It is pretty much like snippet abuse we began to see too many times here in wikipedia. Aigest (talk) 15:47, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Historical inconsistency
The first mention of the city in 1336 as a center of the clans of Zenebishi and Bua-Shpata, creates serious historical inconsistency since this is nowhere to find in any relevant bibliography. Although the above claim is mentioned in the introductory summary of an interesting paper about the architectural aspects of Gjrokaster fortress [[35]], however, bibliography this is based on this can't be found inside, in order to check where this claim comes from.
In fact in 1336, when the city was first mentioned (with references):
- the Boua-Shpata clan, was in Thessaly already from 1334 and then moved to Aetoloacarnania [[36]].
- the Zenebishti clan, controlled the city following the Byzantine period [[37]] (this off course means not from the time it was first mentioned, but from 1373 [[38]]).
- in general Albanian clans didn't yet reached Gjirokaster in 1334, neither controlled the town, since in 1337 they captured a number of fortresses that lie north of the wider region of the town (around Berat, Kelcyre/ Klisoura, Shkrapar ) [[39]].Alexikoua (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- That is WP:SYNTH and you don't have a reliable source that supports a contradicting theory so it's impossible to connect events that aren't connected by the sources themselves.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that's a clear historical fact: In 1336, Gjirokaster was completely unrelated with both families (Boua&Zenebisthi). Off course, I will appreciate if you provide a single academic source that proves the opposite, but as I have proved above with reliable refs (there is plenty of additional bibliography too) there is no connection.Alexikoua (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- "under the Byzantine administration of the Despotate of Epirus, when it was a center of the Albanian families of Zenebishi and Bua-Shpata.[3]" is sourced to nothing more than the Albanian Ministry of Culture website. Athenean (talk) 21:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
- My objection is that the specific paper doesn't offer the necessary bibliography in order to verify. As I remember we had in the past a similar situation in Preveza by another Eu-subsisidize (local) government published paper, which has been termed of 'poor historical quality' [[40]] by third part users and has been dismissed because it contradicted academic material.Alexikoua (talk) 08:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- "under the Byzantine administration of the Despotate of Epirus, when it was a center of the Albanian families of Zenebishi and Bua-Shpata.[3]" is sourced to nothing more than the Albanian Ministry of Culture website. Athenean (talk) 21:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
pronunciation
Please add a clue about how this name is pronounced. Thank you.94.65.149.245 (talk) 07:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Remind
Just a remind. Consensus should incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Some important naming conventions which the article's lead violates (WP:LEAD#General guidelines and WP:LEAD#Separate section usage): Once a Names or Etymology section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead. (Foreign language: Local name; known also by several alternative names)".' If the case is exceptional, common sense may be applied to ignore all rules. Please discuss to decide whether this is an exceptional case or not.2A02:2430:3:2500:0:0:B807:3DA0 (talk) 04:17, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
"Muslim majority"
Giakoumis does not quite state that Muslims were a majority in the town in the early 19th century. He merely says that Muslims were a bare majority (72k to 68k) in the area around Argyrokastro, and as for the town itself, he says that most Muslims of the area lived in the town, but does not say that Muslims in town were a majority. Close, but not good enough. The other source, Kokolakis, says nothing of the sort either. So I have changed it accordingly. Athenean (talk) 04:18, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
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