Talk:Glen Helen, Isle of Man

is Glen Helen name for a turn or not

Is Glen Helen the name used for the left turn of the road (when going north, in the racecourse direction) just after the old Glen Island Hotel is passed on the right? Or is it not the name of the turn, and the turn has no name or a different name? Or for racers is it just the name of the location of the old Glen Island Hotel? My impression is that "Glen Helen" is in fact the name for the corner/turn, but I don't know. The [IoM Guidebook describes "Glen Helen" as being the valley/glen and gardens, without mentioning the racecourse. Rocknrollmancer? Anyone?

"Glen Helen" as a racecourse location or not is separate from "Glen Helen" being the name for the gardens and/or glen, the valley, that goes back up to waterfalls. By the way, Glen Helen appears notable enough as combo article about a turn or other landmark on the Snaefell Mountain Course, plus being about the valley, the glen itself (among about 20 glens listed in IoM Guidebook). So this article won't get deleted or redirected. But, as with other IoM articles, the article should say up front what Glen Helen is, in all respects, not just where something is "situated". In the past an editor believed (incorrectly in my view) that any article about a named corner should not mention the fact that it is the name of a turn in the road, as a matter of strategy in Wikipedia interactions. I think that was intending to avoid derogatory remarks about the article ("it's just a turn in the road") and to head off article redirect or deletion processes. But it leaves this situation where a person from afar can't tell whether "Glen Helen" is a named corner or not.

Either way, the article needs editing to clarify about the location/extent of the glen as a valley, which is NOT just a point location "situated" at one latitude & longitude location. There's a map showing extent of each of IoM's glens, at the IoM guide website, specifically http://www.iomguide.com/glensmap.php --doncram 15:53, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

My personal view is that anyone searching for info is most likely to have heard the TT course landmark reference (rather than a low-key natural edifice in countryside) and that this should be prominent in the lede section. The archaic references to 'parishes' I have left alone in situ, but - again, IMO, they are not really what someone would be searching for...the actual boundaries on moorland between Kirk Onchan and Lezayre are almost bizarrely uninteresting. I do appreciate the circumspection regarding notability, though...that any habited place defaults to being regarded as notable. I would also mention that WP:GNG are guidelines...so should be used sensibly, not as a sledgehammer.

Glen Helen is a sweeping left-hander, slightly uphill, with a greater gradient exiting towards Sarah's Cottage (abbreviated by the race commentators as just Sarah's). I don't know of any other name, so, by association, the course landmark would correctly be known as Glen Helen. Having parking, refreshments and facilities it's popular and a very nice place to view with a steep, natural amphitheatre to the outside radius sitting on a grassy bank, with a good vibe.

But I agree, as a general principle both should be summarised and expanded upon in an appropriate way. One editor regularly quotes WP:OBVIOUS - don't assume the reader knows one or the other, assume that they know neither, so cover both.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

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