Talk:Gypsy jazz

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Commercial links[edit]

@Billinghurst could you explain me why the link I add a bout a gyspy jazz method (http://guitarejazzmanouche.com/en_wiki/index.php/Category:Gypsy_Jazz_Method) is more commercial than truefire.com a online shop for online lessons or even djangopedia which contains more Adsense than mine? Thanks for explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.253.177 (talk) 13:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Untitled[edit]

Shouldn't Django's name be listed as Jean-Baptiste? It is not like in English where the name is separated, rather it is common French name, like Jean-Pierre, Jean-Jacques, Jean-Luc, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.65.196 (talk) 20:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Django's name wasn't Jean-Baptiste, that is a persisent false rumour, which

has been discussed extensively on the Django Reinhardt page 1Z (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to add some sourcing and tone down a few things.--T. Anthony 03:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand all this article needs now are links? RomanyChaj

Sources for the "Techniques" section[edit]

I see that the user Conical Johnson added the "Original research" tag for the "Techniques" section. Can somebody bring some sources for it, as I know myself that most of the infos are true? Also, something on the special vibrato that they use would be good (with a source of course:) ). Kenshin (talk) 11:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this section is accurate and not OR. I could add some refs from Romane's book.1Z (talk) 09:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed a dubious claim about "gypsybilly" and contacted user:Conical Johnson. 1Z (talk) 08:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I'm sure you guys all know, the OR tag has nothing to do with the veracity of the material. You aren't allowed to write things just because you know them to be true. You must have an independent source that verifies it. The way this section is written sounds to me like a guitarist discussing techniques with which he is personally familiar, even to the extent that he uses them himself in gypsy jazz music. Therefore he knows it to be true. And yet, it is (in the hypothetical case I mention) original research. As with any unsourced content on WP, add some sources. Conical Johnson (talk) 09:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Finding sources for doubtful text is much more importan tthan finding sources for information that is probably correct. Most of WP is unsourced.
I think the books in the "References and further reading" section generally support eveything in "techniques". Are in-line citations required? They would be possible, but time-consuming. 1Z (talk) 10:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever else is going on in Wikipedia is irrelevent. You believe this text to be "probably correct", but anyone who didn't write it has no idea. In this way this article is precisely the same to me as pages with "doubtful text" are to you. Whoever wrote that doubtful text believes it to be "probably correct" just as you believe your own writing to be. Conical Johnson (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


There is much outright crap on WP, fixing that is much more of a priority than finding chapter and verse for sensible and uncontentious comment. 1Z (talk) 08:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Come on man, do you really not understand what I'm saying here? "Outright crap" is in the eye of the beholder. That's why we have sources - to remove judgement calls of what's true or not.
Now, with that said, it's not like I'm deleting material here. I put the OR tag up there months ago, and it still applies. If you want to just leave it like that forever, you can. I don't have these books and I'm not going to do the research. All you have to do is cite the book at the end of the paragraph, most people don't bother to cite pages. You could even make some stuff up and cite it all to the book. Who's gonna know? Add some refs if you want the tag gone. Conical Johnson (talk) 09:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have cited severeal books at the end of the article. 1Z (talk) 16:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say something that is on all too few Wp talk pages: This is an absolutely fantastic article and a marvelous source of information, Wp's cavils about sourcing notwithstanding. -- Craig Goodrich 68.58.132.176 (talk) 08:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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wtf.[edit]

All these uses of Gypsy, yet not a single pointer to Romani people? (FWIW, my granddad was Rom, and we take pride in being "of Gypsy blood," so I hope nobody goes all PC on this article just for that reason.)
Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The words Gypsy, Manouche, and Romani are all in the lead section and are now wikilinked. Tony 1212 (talk) 23:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Need for "History" section[edit]

In my opinion this article badly needs a "History" section: compare for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz#History. I am happy to create one if no-one thinks this is a bad idea... Cheers Tony 1212 (talk) 23:05, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, new section added, see what you think... Tony 1212 (talk) 05:59, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Image gallery added[edit]

Hi, I've added an image gallery and populated it with a subset of relevant images from Wikimedia Commons. Perhaps more can be added over time, as new ones appear there. If anyone wishes to add to or alter my selection, feel free. Cheers Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 19:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please read our policy WP:GALLERY In particular ' Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the below paragraphs or moved to Wikimedia Commons. Generally, a gallery should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text.' Please remove the gallery.Best wishes.SovalValtos (talk) 21:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the section per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Lists which says "Music genre articles should not contain lists of performers." An image gallery is functionally the same as a list of performers.
The best way to incorporate images is to put them near associated text in the article body, so that the image shows notable and important points of the topic. But we also cannot clog the article with images, crowding the text and making it too hard to read. Binksternet (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The full quoted paragraph reads: "Music genre articles should not contain lists of performers. A separate list page may be created." So maybe this gallery would be appropriate for such a list page, which does not presently exist. I note User:SovalValtos is also selective with quoting RE style; the full paragraph includes the statement "A gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images ... See Women's suffrage in New Zealand for an example of an informative and well-crafted gallery." Regards - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is certainly room on Wikipedia for an article titled List of gypsy jazz artists, within which a handful of images would most likely fit. Binksternet (talk) 23:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your proposal, and may create such a page if someone else does not get there first (a few other things to do as well :)... Cheers Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 05:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discographical items - yes or no...[edit]

Hi all, I am thinking that it would be nice to list a few "overview" discographical items (compilations) that deal with the genre as a whole, as opposed to LPs/CDs by individual artists, in a "discography", or "listening" section. I can find no guidance on whether this is preferred for genre articles, under e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies; other examples (Blues, Bluegrass music), however do not seem to do this. Thoughts, anyone? Regards - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 06:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a section labelled "Anthologies"? Tony 1212 (talk) 18:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an example of what I have in mind:

[Section header] "Anthologies", or "Recordings", or "Selected recommended listening", or...

  • Jazz Gitan 1939-1943. Jazz Archives no. 144, 1999. Single-disc compilation with Django Reinhardt, the Ferret brothers, André Ekyan et son Orchestre.
  • Gipsy Jazz School - Django's Legacy. Iris Music, 2002. 2-disc compilation, also including rare tracks by the generation that immediately followed Django, playing electric guitars, etc.; includes accompanying extensive (101 page) booklet.
  • The Rough Guide To Gypsy Swing. World Music Network, 2004. Single-disc compilation with Django Reinhardt, Romane, Fapy Lafertin, Patrick Saussois and more.
  • Gypsy Jazz. Properbox, 2007. 4-CD set including many obscure tracks by Reinhardt and contemporary ensembles in other European countries, also some by Reinhardt's contemporary in pre-war Paris, the Argentinian guitarist Oscar Alemán; includes accompanying 31 page booklet.
  • Nothing But Django. Le Chant du Monde, 2008. 3-CD set covering "current generation" followers of Django including Boulou & Elios Ferré, Raphaël Faÿs, Biréli Lagrène and many others; includes accompanying 27 page booklet.
  • Le Coffret Jazz Manouche. Wgram Music, 2011. 5-CD set (including one disc of historic Reinhardt selections), remainder largely recent recordings by a wide and representative selection of new Gypsy Jazz players, with brief artist and title information only.
  • Gypsy Jazz: The Authentic Sound of Parisian Street Jazz. Not Now Music, 2015. Budget price 2-CD set featuring many of Reinhardt's contemporaries including in settings with accordionists such as Gus Viseur, Jo Privat, etc.

...plus any recent compilations/reissues of historic recordings by the original Quintette du Hot Club de France.

On film:

  • The Django Legacy, also released as Gypsy guitar : The legacy of Django Reinhardt. Dir. John Jeremy, 1991 (available on VHS tape). 60 minute made-for-TV film narrated by Sacha Distel with interviews and/or music from Babik Reinhardt, Boulou & Elios Ferré, Jimmy Rosenberg, Stochelo Rosenberg, Gary Potter and more.
Thoughts? Tony 1212 (talk) 00:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe but probably not. Wikipedia does not Select recommended listening. Let us see who strongly supports the proposal.SovalValtos (talk) 07:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

originated by vs. influenced by...[edit]

Anonymous user 100.4.148.101 has twice inserted the phrase "influenced by (Django Reinhardt)" to the lede description of the style, first to replace my wording "developed by", then my replacement text/semi revert "originating from", without justification. I have around 10 texts in front of me that would support stating Django as originator of the style, and you would have to live under a rock to assert anything to the contrary. What is best to be done here? Regards Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We can put the article under protection if disruption continues.
I would be interested to see the IP's source for someone who established gypsy jazz before Django. If there's somebody earlier, I'm open to reading about it. Doubtful, though. Binksternet (talk) 22:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No—it was invented much later, rather than earlier. If you can find a source of information published before Django Reinhardt died in 1953 which refers to him playing "gypsy jazz" or "jazz manouche" please share it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Binksternet. Re the suggestion that Django may not have invented/originated/originated developed the style, well, who was there? Eddie Lang and Baro Ferret. But Baro was not playing gypsy jazz at that time (he did later with Django), and Lang's style was very different (no "gypsy" there). Basically I would contend the imputation (that Django "influenced" the genre but it already existed in some manner) is simply spurious. It is well documented that Django played in a different style before 1930-32, and he developed the new style after listening to "new" jazz records played for him by Emile Savitry. I could go on but there is no need I am sure :) Best - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:42, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well the material you removed was footnoted with multiple citations of peer-reviewed sources. This "family tree" concept, which is derived from Dregni, is a fiction based on the frankly racially essentialist notion that a musical genre is a function exclusively of its performers' race or ethnicity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.12 (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why should there be any imperative to trace jazz manouche's origins to the 1930s or earlier? It didn't exist until much later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Django Reinhardt did not develop gypsy jazz. It was developed by other musicians many years after he died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.145.216 (talk) 20:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That depends whether your concept of "gypsy jazz" includes the 1930s performances and recordings by its originator or not... it appears that you would exclude them and confine use of the term to the music of his followers only. This is not a view adopted by current authors: I quote from Dregni, "Django Reinhardt and the Illustrated History of Gypsy Jazz" as an example: "Gypsy jazz is largely the legacy of one man-and Django remains one of the few musicians in any style of music to create a whole genre as his legacy." (p.8). In other words, he created the genre, even if it did not acquire the name "gypsy jazz" until the 1970s (a point that is mentioned in the article). To imply that the genre did not exist until it was so named, and to exclude its creator, is simply incorrect.Tony 1212 (talk) 21:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that the original term was in French - "Jazz Tsigane" - as used by Alain Antonietto in articles, discographies, etc. - to refer to the historic style played by Django and his contemporaries - not specifically his followers (who were few to non-existent in the early 1970s). Tony 1212 (talk) 22:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you read Michel-Claude Jalard's 1959 article on "Jazz Tsigane" you'll find that it was not at all dealing with gypsy jazz or jazz manouche, which didn't exist at that time. "Jazz Tsigane" was simply jazz played by musicians of Romani origin. It was about the ethnicity (or as Jalard put it, "race") of the musicians, not the style of music they played. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The argument is not that the genre did not exist until it was named as such; the point is that nobody during Django Reinhardt's lifetime—or for some years after his death—considered the music he played (after 1930 or so) to be any genre other than jazz, plain and simple. Dregni is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 00:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello 100.4.147.164, and thanks for engaging here on the "Talk" page; also I am presuming you are contributing in good faith, and may have more suggestions/contributions for the future, in which case I wish you all the best.
Nevertheless according to your definition, a modern individual or group re-creating Django's music note-for-note (or attempting to) is playing gypsy jazz, but Django was not... which I would contend is illogical. You may as well say that since Chaucer and Shakespeare were not considered "English Literature" at the time they were written, they do not come under that category today. However the article is about the genre of music as understood today, not 80+ years ago. I'm sorry, merely stating "Dregni is wrong" is not a valid argument. If this page were entitled (say) "gypsy jazz today" or "current performers in the Django style" (or some such title) then I would agree with your suggested wording, but it is about the entire genre, which everybody - apart from you it seems - accepts, starts with Django and the QHCF. So in fact I do not care exactly what wording is in the lede, so long as it conveys that concept: starts with / originates from / originally created by / developed by are all fine. "Influenced by" is not, for the reasons already discussed... You can say that this is my opinion, but I believe it is sufficiently backed up by published sources. By the way my name is Tony, you can check my user page if interested. Regards - Tony 1212 (talk) 01:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Actually this sort of argument [the modern genre exists now but did not back at its origin] is widespread among philosophers of the arts (see Arthur Danto's The Transfiguration of the Commonplace). A musical genre is not only about abstract sounds; it also involves a cultural context and a means of production (e.g., improvising rather than imitating what somebody else played on a recording a long time ago). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This last sentence [80+ years ago] seems to acknowledge candidly that the notion that Django Reinhardt "originated" or "developed" gypsy jazz is a recent invention and to view his music of the 1930s with the QHCF (which was a minority of the music he was playing even during that decade) is an anachronistic fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Of course [Dregni is wrong] it's not an argument; it's an accurate statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Whenever I see an argument like this, where a sort of rethinking or historical revision is suggested, I like to go back to the most stable sources, the ones that were around before Wikipedia. It's interesting to look at books published before 2004, because their authors were not influenced by what is too easily found on Wikipedia. One of the books in my search tonight was Tom Dempsey's Classic Jazz Guitar Styles from 1997. Dempsey says on page 10: "The guitarist who most significantly influenced the style, “Gypsy jazz," was Django Reinhardt."[1] This kind of tribute can be found in just about every mention of Django. Binksternet (talk) 03:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key is what phrases are / have been used in the same sense of "gypsy jazz" - for example Hot Club style, Django style, etc. - they are all the same thing, meaning the guitar (and small group) style for which Django and the QHCF are the archetype, that everyone tries to reproduce or then build upon. Thus to say that (for example) Django did not play "Django style" guitar is obviously nonsensical.

No, actually it makes perfect sense—it's the distinction between a musical idiolect and a dialect[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9D6F:9921:52B5:1347 (talk) 01:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]


A quote will suffice, from Ian Cruickshank's "The Guitar Style of Django Reinhardt", 1982 (well before the internet era)... (p.1) "The purpose of this book is to provide some pointers towards the gypsy jazz style as pioneered by Django Reinhardt, and continued to-day by many gypsy guitarists." (My italics). That is exactly it; this WP article exists to describe the genre, its history (starting with Django, also to some extent its pre-Django antecedents), its characteristics, instrumentation, techniques. All of these commence with consideration of Django and the music he created in the 1930s, not just his recent followers. I completely accept that the music by his followers was "influenced by" Django Reinhardt, but his own music was a then brand-new and original synthesis, and influenced only by non-GJ players (in the jazz world, Armstrong, Ellington, etc., plus his non-jazz gypsy antecents). In this page (genre description) we clearly (to my mind) start with Django and go forward from there. Really, to me this is so self-evident that I do not even see why we are prolonging this conversation... Tony 1212 (talk) 04:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Django just had a distinctive individual musical voice within the jazz genre—as Django's biographer Patrick Williams has noted, characterizing it as a different style of music (i.e., "gypsy jazz") is as nonsensical as calling Lee Konitz's music "Jewish jazz" or Adrian Rollini's music "Italian jazz" (see Williams, Django Reinhardt, p. 141). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in terms of gypsy jazz we can start with Django as an influence and inspiration, but not as creator or originator. If you think we "clearly" must accept that Django "created" gypsy jazz, then that view needs to be grounded in an argument that's based on historical truth and reality rather than the assertion that it is "self-evident" or the fact that certain writers such as Dregni have made claims and arguments that may in fact be erroneous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gypsy jazz originated around the 1970s and the name didn't become widespread until the 1990s. Today it's musically quite different from the music that Django played in the 1930s with the QHCF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Might it help to add an Etymology section? The fruits of the above discussion might go there rather than too much in the lead. IP please remember to sign.SovalValtos (talk) 12:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say I am am getting pretty tired of this "black is white" discussion, where an anonymous user thinks that simply contradicting all the expert and reliable sources is sound or even helpful argument. This is my last post on the subject and I leave it to others to discuss further if you have the stamina. I leave with the following quote by respected commentator Ted Gottsegen, posted in 2005 on the "djangobooks" forum:

In order to correctly understand the current state of jazz manouche, it's important that we get a brief, generational family tree. Currently there are four generations of Gypsy Jazz guitarists going back to Django's era. They are as follows:

The first generation are contemporaries of Django, but are limited to those guitarists who were active professionally while he was still alive, but limited to those whose actually recorded during Django's reign. There are guitarists who were indeed active during this period and also recorded, but they simply didn't come into their own to receive what little recognition they got. Tchan-Tchou would be a perfect example. Note: These are not complete lists, general, known players names are used (and some obscure ones as well)

The first generation, early 1930's to the early 1950's: Matelo, Baro, Sarane and Challain Ferret, Eugene Vees, Henri Crolla, Jacques Montagne, Joseph Reinhardt, Gusti Malha, Leo Slab, Lousson Baumgartner, Didi Duprat.

The second generation, mid to late 1950's through the early 1970's: Mondine Garcia, Ninine Garcia, Chatou Garcia, Piton Reinhardt, Spatzo Adel, Niglo Adel, Vivian Villerstein, Maurice Ferret, Joseph Pouville, Tchan-Tchou, Bousquet, Cardi, Schnuckenack Reinhardt, Häns'che Weiss, Romansj, Laro Sollero, Angelo, René Maihles, Babik Reinhardt

The third generation, mid 1970's through the mid to late 1980's - Dorado Schmitt, Tchavolo Schmitt, Mandino Reinhardt, Hono Winterstein, Bireli Lagrene, Mito Loeffler, Titi Winterstein, Romane, Laurent Bajata, Martin Weiss, Traubeli Weiss, Romani Weiss, Mike Reinhardt, Samson Reinhardt, Coco Reinhardt, Tchouta Adel, Jeannot "Titotte" Mahla, Raphael Fays, Fapy Lafertin

The fourth generation, late 1980's to the present: Jimmy Rosenberg, Samson Schmitt, Dino Mehrstein, Yorgui Loeffler, Dallas Baumgartner, Mundine Garcia, Rocky Garcia, Rocky Fallone, Noe Reinhardt, Moreno, Angelo Debarre, David Reinhardt, Mano Drey, Kussi Weiss, Tchocolo Winterstein, Doudou Cuillierre.

Again, this list is by no means exhaustive, just enough to give you an idea as to who came onto the scene at what point. You should also be able to tell, by where the players come from, who their teachers were. You can begin to draw a picture of how the music was handed down through the generations. Comments of questions?

Best,

Ted

-Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also our anonymous poster keeps saying things like "Gypsy jazz originated around the 1970s and the name didn't become widespread until the 1990s." If that is the case, how come the Properbox 4-disc multi-artist compilation "Gypsy jazz", probably the best presented such to date, and with an extensive commentary by Joop Visser, has 4 discs solely covering the periods 1934-1939, 1939-1942, 1942-1944, and 1944-1956, respectively, commencing of course with Django, Grappelli, et al.? (also including a few non-GJ artists from the French scene for good measure). Oh I forgot, the anonymous poster is right in his conception of the genre, and everybody else is wrong... Also I quote from p. 7 of the liner notes: "It was down to one man to distill these musical styles [meaning previous gypsy music, musette, and jazz] and transform them into Gypsy jazz, Django Reinhardt, the first genuinely international voice that jazz produced, a man who emerged to transform the guitar and jazz forever."

The Properbox CD compilation was released in 2007, more than 50 years after Django Reinhardt died, and it was attempting to retrospectively invent a history for the genre in order to legitimize it. An effective way to validate something is to assert that it is old and has "withstood the test of time," whether or not that is actually the case. The Mormons claim that when someone converts to Mormonism, then all their ancestors are posthumously baptized as members of the Church of Latter Day Saints. It's defining something (or somebody, such as the falsity that Reinhardt was a "gypsy jazz" musician) by retrospective fiat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9934:A57F:12D3:C452 (talk) 03:40, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is definitely it from me (unlike just above), I have done my best to improve this page for the benefit of all but now leave to others to take it further, as well as deal with dissenting opinions. Tony 1212 (talk) 22:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome back again Tony 1212. I hope you do not change your mind and leave again! Please remember to indent with colons. Please also see WP:V if you consider CD liner notes to be a reliable source. You may consider Joop Visser to be "established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" but I have found no evidence of that or even an article here. Did you mean the singer Jaap Fischer?
Thanks SovalValtos. Joop Visser is a Dutch jazz music commentator, described here as "Author, Compiler, Editor, Producer, Performer", with "86 works in 132 publications ranging between 1979 and 2017". That is all I know, however the publishers of the Properbox set obviously considered him an appropriate writer to compile the extensive (30-odd page) liner notes for that compilation; also mentioned here in the context of another compilation, "Swing Tanzen Verboten: Swing Music and Nazi Propaganda during World War II". I think we can presume that his writings are considered reliable, particularly as they conform with those of other experts as cited earlier in this discussion... Regards Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 07:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
More incorrect stuff (why?) in the lede initial paragraph: "The name "gypsy jazz" began to be used around the late 1990s". No it didn't. Read Ian Cruickshank, "The Guitar Style of Django Reinhardt and the Gypsies", p. 1. (1982): "The purpose of this book is to provide some pointers towards the gypsy jazz style as pioneered by Django Reinhardt, and continued to-day by many gypsy guitarists." I actually quoted this above, but seemingly ignored by those intent on re-writing GJ history. From the same page: "in 1981 [the author] made a 40 minute movie documentary called "Gypsy Jazz" ". Also note, Cruickshank and associate Trevor Davies produced a tape for sale around the same time, entitled "Gypsy Jazz from France". (I have a copy on my shelf, purchased at that time), and wrote articles for several magazines on the topic - inspired by visiting the Django Festival at Samois in 1978 (a festival which actually started 10 years earlier). The earliest reference to a critic describing the style in these terms would appear to be in the late 50s (only 6 years after Django's death): Jalard, Michel-Claude. "Django et l'école tsigane du jazz." [Django and the gypsy school of jazz]. Les cahiers du jazz, no. 1 (1959): 54–73. Perhaps the intention is to say "The name "gypsy jazz" began to be commonly used as a marketing tool around the late 1990s" which is possibly more correct, however "3rd generation" performers in this style were emerging since the early 70s, called "Django style", "Jazz Gitan", "Gypsy Swing", and similar. Bireli Lagrene, a late comer, recorded his first album in 1980, by which time Häns'che Weiss, Waso, Boulou+Elios Ferre, Raphael Fays (among others) were already well established, as well as others who had never gone away (Joseph Reinhardt, Mondin + Ninine Garcia, Matelo Ferret, others)
Noting also, Waso had an LP out entitled "Gipsy Swing Vol. 4" [sic] in 1979, plus "Gipsy Swing Vol. 5" in 1983... meanwhile Schnuckenack Reinhardt released "Musik Deutscher Zigeuner" (and successors) from 1969 onwards, and "Swing Session" in 1975, showing that the market for "Gypsy Swing" (as it was more likely to be called at that time) existed well before the 1990s. There was also "Hotclub the Zigan" (literally: the gypsy hot club") self titled album in 1976, La Romanderie "Gipsy Swing" in 1976 (plus a previous one in 1975), Häns'che Weiss Quintett from 1973 onwards - so if anything, popular re-emergence of the genre started around this time (early 70s onwards) - not forgetting Diz Disley's Hot Club of London (1973) with Grappelli, and pevious own Django-inspired quintet in 1958... then again, why not trace it all the way back e.g. to recordings in the style by Matelo and sarane Ferret's groups (and Joseph) in the 1930s, 1940s and 50s, and even the Swedish Svenska Hotvintetten from 1939 onwards...Tony 1212 (talk) 23:41, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's obvious that the gypsy jazz term was already being used before the 1990s, despite what was written by Siv B. Lie and Benjamin Givan. The recent scholarship is clearly wrong on some factual points about chronology, so that makes me think their work contains analysis faults as well. Perhaps we should shunt the new scholars off into their own paragraph where their revisionist ideas are presented as a minor viewpoint? Binksternet (talk) 00:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
+1 from me... BTW Bireli Lagrene's first album "Routes to Django" (1980) mentions "Zigeuner-Jazz-Kultur" in the liner notes, however my German is not up to translating the full passage. Text reproduced here, though probably unreadable... Another relevant item, "The Gipsy Jazz Violin Summit", was released by MPS in 1979... Tony 1212 (talk) 01:47, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The earliest use of the term "Gypsy Jazz" in English that I can find via Google Books is 2 instances in 1960: the first in Billboard Magazine, 8 Feb 1960, reviewing "The Best of Django Reinhardt", just released ("Here are 24 jazz performances featuring the late, great gypsy jazz guitarist...") and the second in Hifi/stereo Review, Volume 4, 1960: "Capitol TBO 10226 2 12" $7.98 Interest: Distinctive gypsy jazz / Performance: Django was unique / Recording: Good transfer. Capitol has made available again twenty-four performances..." . So the term in English dates back to then at least, and presumably was intended to be meaningful to readers... although in these cases, describing the originator rather than the followers (nothing wrong with that, in my opinion). Also an example from Down Beat, Volume 30, 1963, reviewing Stephane Grappelli/others, "Feeling+Finesse = Jazz": "In some spots the record had for me the feeling of gypsy jazz. I always like quartets, because they are very exposed; everyone has to be really good to sound good. Sometimes this guy sounds like Django Reinhardt..."Tony 1212 (talk) 05:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do find this quote from Lie & Givan , 2019, given below, somewhat curious: "Jazz manouche originated in the late 1960s, when music inspired by Django Reinhardt’s improvisations and repertoire began to be played in some Romani communities". Again incorrect: for example Boulou & Elios Ferre (plus their brother Michel) were tutored from very young by their father Matelo (d. 1989), who played regularly with Django in the original Quintette: an unbroken line. Similarly for the sons of Eugène Vees (d. 1977); Joseph Reinhardt (original GJ generation) was also playing up to his death in 1982; just a small number of examples. That the Romani were playing this music in their encampments (although not typically in recording studios) right through to 1960 and beyond is illustrated by the Jean-Christophe Averty film Hommage a Django Reinhardt from 1959/60, featuring among others Matelo, Vees, Joseph Reinhardt, etc., as well as their next generation children (also including Babik, the son of Django), also by later concerts in Paris featuring the Ferrets, Babik, etc. etc.

• Actually, Joseph Reinhardt stated directly, when questioned, that he considered the music he played to be simply "jazz," and not any kind of traditional gypsy music (or any other genre, for that matter). You can see the film of him saying this by searching for "Joseph & Babik Reinhardt. Tchan Tchou Vidal 1960's" on YouTube.

In general, the children learned from their parents/uncles/other relatives (same can be said for the Dutch school), it was part of their culture in which they grew up; with the possible exception of some of the gypsy musicians from Alsace - whom it has been stated were inspired to take up the style following a visit from Schnuckenack Reinhardt's outfit in the 60s or 70s - they did not suddenly "decide" to try to play in a Django-like style. All this and more is evident particularly from Cruickshank's book/s as well as from documentary evidence such as the Averty film cited above. Regards Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 06:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When Django died in 1953, Jet magazine printed an obit saying "gypsy jazz guitarist",[2] although the critic could argue that they are first calling Django a gypsy and then saying he was a jazz guitarist. Binksternet (talk) 11:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, the same could be said of the first 1960 reference I found, but probably not the second, or the 1963 one...Tony 1212 (talk) 18:41, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notice that you are now discussing whether the concept of "gypsy jazz" originated in the 1960s or the 1970s—whereas Django Reinhardt died in 1953. Django did not play "gypsy jazz." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:3E05:7000:9D6F:9921:52B5:1347 (talk) 01:06, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Style_and_Music/X44_zSrh0nYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=dialect

Hudson IP sources from scholars[edit]

Here are the sources introduced by the editor who has been using IPs from Hudson, New York. They are interesting, and may provide good viewpoints for this article. Binksternet (talk) 05:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Williams, Patrick. "Un Héritage Sans Transmission : Le Jazz Manouche." Ethnologie Française 30, no. 3 (2000): 409-22. French language. https://www.jstor.org/stable/40990261.
    • "What is commonly called Gypsy jazz is not, as one often thinks, the synthesis of two traditions, jazz and Tzigane music, but the legacy of an exceptional Gypsy, Django Reinhardt, to his community This article examines in a diachronical perspective how one person's work became the emblem of a whole community."
  • Givan, Benjamin. (2014). "'Django’s Tiger': From Jazz to Jazz Manouche." Current Musicology, (98). https://doi.org/10.7916/cm.v0i98.5332 https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/currentmusicology/article/view/5332
    • "Jazz manouche, a contemporary musical genre originally inspired by the European Romani guitarist Django Reinhardt (1910–53), provides a fruitful case study for exploring the conceptual transformations and contradictions inherent within any “invented tradition.” This article’s point of departure is Reinhardt’s original composition “Django’s Tiger,” which today’s musicians typically perform with slightly different harmonies from those heard on the guitarist’s original 1946 recording. Consequently, an informant declared that the original version now “sounds wrong”—a considerable irony given that jazz manouche players typically regard Reinhardt’s own music with extraordinary reverence. The musical discrepancies in question, which stem from a mishearing, are indicative of a significant change in jazz manouche’s modes of transmission. Musicians once learned mainly by imitating Reinhardt’s recordings; “Django’s Tiger’s” customary chord changes are today based on his 1946 melodic improvisation rather than on its underlying harmonies. Since the 1990s, however, jazz manouche has increasingly spread via oral transmission and electronic media. Nonetheless, the history of “Django’ Tiger” suggests that the principal dissimilarities between today’s idiom and Reinhardt’s own music are not musical but ontological and epistemological: evanescent improvisations have been transmuted into fixed pieces and individual stylistic idiosyncrasies have become classicized orthodoxies. Especially revealing are the moments when these conflicting epistemologies have tangible musical consequences, such as when contemporary jazz manouche guitarist Adrien Moignard attempts to replicate the melody of Reinhardt’s original “Django’s Tiger” solo against the modified contemporary harmonies, an endeavor that has to be abruptly truncated to avoid yielding musical incoherence."
  • Siv B. Lie and Benjamin Givan (2019). "Jazz Manouche". Grove Music Online. Oxford University Press. https://doi.org/10.1093/omo/9781561592630.013.90000315373
    • "Jazz manouche, also known as ‘Gypsy jazz’, is a musical style based primarily on the 1930s recordings of French jazz guitarist Django Reinhardt (1910–53) with the Quintet of the Hot Club of France. Well-known 21st-century exponents include Biréli Lagrène, Stochelo Rosenberg, Angelo Debarre, Tchavolo Schmitt, and Adrien Moignard. The style characteristically features stringed instruments (primarily the acoustic steel-stringed guitar, violin, and double bass) in ensembles of between three and six musicians. Repertoire largely comprises American and French popular songs dating from the 1920s and 30s, such as ‘All of Me’, and tunes composed by Reinhardt, such as ‘Minor Swing’, ‘Nuages’, and ‘Django’s Tiger’. Performances consist of accompanying guitarists playing a duple-meter percussive chordal stroke called la pompe over a pizzicato walking bass line while soloists take turns improvising virtuosically on the harmonies of a cyclically repeating form, typically 32 bars long (see example). Improvised melodies often use techniques derived from Reinhardt’s recordings; eighth notes are swung and tempi vary considerably, sometimes exceeding 300 quarter notes per minute. Jazz manouche originated in the late 1960s, when music inspired by Django Reinhardt’s improvisations and repertoire began to be played in some Romani communities (the term ‘jazz manouche’ was never used during Reinhardt’s lifetime..."
  • Siv B. Lie (2019). "Genre, Ethnoracial Alterity, and the Genesis of jazz manouche". Journal of the American Musicological Society, Vol. 72, Number 3, pp. 665–718. https://doi.org/10.1525/jams.2019.72.3.665
    • "Taking these present-day positions on the birth of jazz manouche as a cue for historical investigation, this article explores how the genre evolved in tandem with the development of ethnoracial discourses about Manouches in France. I argue that ethnoracial and generic categories can develop symbiotically, each informing and reflecting ideologies about cultural identity and its sonic expressions. The coalescence of jazz manouche as a practice and as a genre label depended overwhelmingly on its associations—forged by music industry representatives, critics, historians, audiences, and musicians themselves—with Manouche ethnorace. In turn, conceptions of Manouche ethnorace have also been shaped through the discourses and practices of jazz manouche. Examining ideas about jazz manouche and the people who perform it helps to differentiate between ethnoracial imaginaries and the people onto whom those imaginaries are projected. Race and ethnicity are constituted through discourse and cultural practice and are used to unite, distinguish, and segregate populations—processes observable in a wide variety of ethnoracialized music genres and exemplified in jazz manouche."

Article name change proposal & other questionable wording[edit]

Hey, i’ve been informed that many regard the G word when referring to Roma as a slur (and all other language variations), seeing as the article name in this instance contains said word, I propose that we change it to something like "Romani Jazz" (since i believe its standard wikipedia protocol and this is a big active page, i came here to build consensus)

P.S. i'm aware many Roma also use this term in reclamation and take great pride in it, and I respect that, I'm not Roma myself so specifically i'd like your input on this as it is a matter of your people above all else

Jazz Manouche, Roma Jazz, or Hot Club Jazz would all seem like acceptable alternatives.

"Jazz Manouche" would probably be the proper name. It seems like the next most common term for this genre. Manouche is not simply the french translation of the slur. It's an autonym—what the people call themselves. (root is 'manus' in Romani, i.e. 'human,' whereas 'gyp' comes from 'Egyptian,' a mistaken guess on where the Roma people originated.)

On the other hand: while I personally support changing the name (g*psy is indeed a slur), the current article name is what it's known by 90% of the time. I'm not sure of Wikipedia etiquette when it comes to this. 2600:6C46:6D7F:7400:3009:6441:2AE3:99D (talk) 10:05, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia generally goes by the common name, even if there are moral reasons to use a different name, so I think a formal move request would be unlikely to gain consensus until the common usage shifts. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 17:52, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Manouche jazz[edit]

This article has been edited to replace most mentios of gypsy with roma or manouche, but nobody refers to this music as manouche jazz. Wikipedia should be descriptive and refer to it as gypsy jazz as most people do. Miro8888 (talk) 12:49, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the people who actually play the music, in my experience, call it hot club jazz. 73.149.64.233 (talk) 14:55, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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