Talk:Hanoi/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Pronunciation

Can someone include a pronunciation guide? I came here wondering whether it was "han-oy" or "han-wa" (given the French influences) and the page doesn't answer that question. --Doradus 13:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It's pronounced according to Vietnamese pronunciation rules: Hah-noy. The French write it as Hanoï. DHN 14:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Blacklist

Alright, something needs to be done about this guy, 203.160.1.47. He's tried to promote his crap site multiple times here. It's littered with butchered English and tons of advertising links, not to mention the blatant plagiarism (word-for-word) of other reputable sites about Vietnam.

After viewing his talk page for just fifteen seconds, it's quite obvious that this guy is up to no good here. Obviously a bot of some sort. What's it going to take to get this IP blacklisted? VietGrant 07:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Intro paragraph - dates

It states that Hanoi "served as the capital of French Indochina from 1887 to 1945. From 1945 to 1976, it was the capital of North Vietnam." I believe 1945 should be changed to 1954 - the French maintained Hanoi as their Indochinese capital until the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, no?

Also, did the French hold onto Hanoi during the Japanese occupation during WWII, or was there an interruption? --Davecampbell 19:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Hanoi zoo used to be a really good place to view the massive asian gaur. I've seen one, as big as a young elephant, back in 1992, but now there's no more. What a pity:

http://www.indianaturewatch.net/displayimage.php?id=2540

http://www.arkive.org/species/GES/mammals/Bos_frontalis/Bos_frontalis_00.html

Founding Year is not 1010

Is this article about the settlements that collectively make up what is now called "Hanoi", or is it about the settlement once it was called Hanoi? Dai La is/was located inside what is called now Hanoi (i.e. not province (like Co Loa), but city). Dai La is much older than 1010. In 1010, Dai La was renamed to "Thang Long", i.e not Hanoi. "Hanoi" as such did not exist in 1010 ... the settlement was called "Hanoi" only in 1831, as the article says. So, the date for the founding should either be 1831, or whatever founding date of Dai La can be found ... since Dai La could be considered as kind of the predecessor. Stefanhanoi 17:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

1010 is significant in Hanoi history because it's the year that it becomes the capital of Vietnam. Before that, I think it's just a citadel and not inhabited my many people. DHN 03:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not deny that 1010 has "some" significance, but it should not be mentioned as the founding year of "Hanoi" in the box to the right. Problem is, I don't know what better date to use.

Next, I think Dai La (and thus a settlement that is now called "Hanoi") was already before 1010 capital of an independent Vietnam, and was populated also in that time. I quote from Nguyen Vinh Phuc in "Hanoi - Past and Present" (The Gioi, 2001), page 44ff: "In the middle of the fifth century (454-456), Hanoi [sic] was recorded as the centre of Tong Binh district which later became a province. ... The seat of government of [Chinese province of] Tong Binh was in the urban area of present Hanoi." This would mean that there was a sigificant settlement at least in the middle of the fifth century, if not already earlier.

Regarding Hanoi being the first time the capital of an independent Vietnam: "In 544. Ly Bi ... built a fortress by the To Lich River [i.e. present day Hanoi area]. After defeating the Liang invaders, he proclaimed himself King ... Thereafter, his nephew, Ly Phat Tu moved the capital to Co Loa ..." Where did Ly Bi rule his independent Vietnam, if not from where the administration was up to his victory (i.e. the administration of Tong Binh within present day Hanoi), or in his fortress (also within present day Hanoi)?

http://www.bvom.com/resource/vn_history.asp?pContent=Ancient_Time writes "In 544, Ly Bon proclaimed himself Emperor of the Southern (Nam De), and named the country Van Xuan, the Capital situated in Hanoi now."

Bottom Line:

1) 1010 is maybe the year when the first time a Vietnamese emperor moved the capital to what is now Hanoi - usually, the Vietnamese moved it away, e.g. to Co Loa or to Hoa Luu, and the Chinese moved it back again to Dai La.

2) It is not possible to give a founding date for "Hanoi", since Hanoi was never founded. Hanoi is the name of a number of settlements, each with their own founding date.

Stefanhanoi 13:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Gallery

The Gallery of images is a fantastic resource. It really compliments the article. LordHarris 17:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)Great work on the gallery.

Fair use rationale for Image:Logo Hà Nội.jpg

Image:Logo Hà Nội.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Cuisine

Need someone to write an article about cuisine in Hanoi! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.203.114.231 (talk) 23:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the newly added transportation section is more suited for Wikitravel? DHN 03:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Someone (82.27.205.64) came in and took out all of the Chinese. As a former Chinese-controlled state, it's relevant (Especially since Chinese writing was used widely). He did this in other places, but I don't know enough about it to revert (Wiki code and chinese), nor do I want to go through the hassle if it's going to be reverted. Michael.Niemann 02:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That was me. I removed the Chinese translation because it's entirely irrelevant. This is an English Wikipedia and everything should be in English except for maybe the local name which is not in Chinese. The only place that Chinese translation should be included is probably on the origin of the name. There are much more people in Vietnam who can understand English or even French, German than Chinese. Even before the romanised system is invented, Vietnamese use "chu+~ no^m" - not Chinese. If Chinese translation should be included just because the Chinese controlled Vietnam then maybe we should also add Vietnamese translation to every entry on provinces in Southern China since Vietnamese used to control this area, Latin translation should also be added to entries on English cities since the Roman used to control England, Vietnamese translation for Cambodian cities, Khmer translation for Thai cities, etc. That's a great way to make a mess of Wikipedia.--lt2hieu2004 03:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

All the name of Hanoi are chinese origin (and with its meaning)! it's not the case of Khmer or Thai!Chuoibk 10:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

How silly is the comment above.The Vietnamese had their own writing script system similar to Chinese but it was not Chinese (like Japanese, Korean...) Names of regions in and around Hanoi are Vietnamese.

Fair use rationale for Image:Logo Hà Nội.jpg

Image:Logo Hà Nội.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 13:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

few matters

1. i cleaned up the external links a bit for obvious ones to be removed. 1 non-working link, 2 links about hotels, 1 promotional travel guide, 1 vietnamese forum which does not enhance the article. i say the expat forum links should be removed too and posted in wikitravel, but it's your call. i also added a photo link that was far more complete than any of the others that were already there, and provided good views of very typical Hanoi street scenes. 2. i added a bit to the cuisine section but not much. i might work on this later, but i'm vegetarian so it would help if someone else who had a more wholesome view of vietnamese food could do it. 3. i think the Hotels section needs to go. we don't need to know there is a Sheraton and a Hilton in Hanoi, there is nothing special about them. this can go in the "Sleep / Splurge" section of wikitravel. 4. i think this needs to be organised more like an encyclopedia article and not a travel guide. sections should be such as "Major monuments", "Cuisine", "Economy", and so on rather than "Tourist Attractions", etc.

thoughts? 18.62.31.230 (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

NewHanoian.com[1] needs to stay. Anyone who has spent any time in Hanoi knows this resource as THE source for info on what is going on around town. It provides Q&A about the city, culture, government, and daily life, as well as classifieds, a weekly "what's going on" schedule, and user created reviews on every venue imaginable, including hotels, restaurants, bars, museums, English schools, and foreign embassies. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't even have ads. It's equally valuable to locals, expats, and tourists, and it needs to stay. Darth Twit (talk) 05:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

external links

What's with the External Link nazi-ism that has been going on lately on this article? first someone plain wipes the whole section, next thing someone thinks only photo links should go by some sort of policy, then something else, ... Read and understand the policy, folks. I'm sure we all agree that commercial links and non-informative pages and product promotion are not for Wikipedia, but nothing is to say we can't have helpful links of other sorts. Wikipedia is meant to be fun, informative, and helpful. Photo links help a LOT, if they are true and fairly complete, in helping the viewer truly see the place through a distant pair of eyes if they can't go there themselves. Photography is factual and a picture is worth a thousand words. There are also fantastic photography out there that truly capture the atmosphere of a place but are unfortunately copyrighted -- there is nothing wrong at all in linking to a copyrighted source. Take it easy, folks. Please discuss. I find the External Links to be one of the most helpful sections of Wikipedia when done nicely and completely. 18.62.31.230 (talk) 18:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a Web portal, nor a search engine. There are other (better) ways to get that kind of information if you need it. --Nlu (talk) 20:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia Guidelines on external links: "This section is for linking to websites with significant and reliable additional information on an article's topic." Let's not be so hasty when removing OR adding. Darth Twit (talk) 06:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

External Link

There's an external link that really needs to be added to the Hanoi page. I know that section is policed quite rigorously, but this deserves a spot. It's The New Hanoian. I just spent over a year in Hanoi, and I can tell you that this site is definitely a valuable (and free) tool. It just started to take off last spring, and it's already proving to be more relevant than any of the guide books. They list just about every place they come across, not just the tourist hot spots. Any objections? VietGrant 19:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

nice, but this sounds like the kind of thing that belongs on wikitravel instead, don't you think? i think it's nicer if external links point directly to static information that supports the article, rather than forums and such. people who read Wikipedia aren't trying to live in Hanoi, they're trying to learn about it. thoughts? 18.62.31.230 (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a wealth of information there that exceeds the description of "travel guide". Per Wikipedia rules: "This section is for linking to websites with significant and reliable additional information on an article's topic."

Topic: Hanoi
Significant and reliable additional information on the topic: Yes. Darth Twit (talk) 06:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Exhibit A Darth Twit (talk) 07:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Long Đỗ

What is the etymology/Hán tự for the former place name Long Đỗ? Badagnani (talk) 17:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Dragon's belly - 龍肚. DHN (talk) 17:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

How did you find that? Even vi:WP doesn't seem to have it. Badagnani (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

vi.wiki indicated the literal meaning. DHN (talk) 22:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Reunification vs unification

The articles states: "Following the end of the war, Hanoi became the capital of Vietnam when North and South Vietnam were reunited on July 2, 1976."

The term "reunification" implies that it was unified some time prior to 1976. Much of the area once called South Viet Nam was part of Cambodia prior to the French colonizing Indochina. In 1954, with the partitioning of Viet Nam, the French supported government of South Viet Nam took over the Mekong Delta and the rest of the area which was part of Cambodia prior to the French. Therefore the area was never "reunified" as such, it was "unified" into a single Vietnamese government took over the Cambodian territory. The people of Viet Nam simply annexed a large part of Cambodia, a part once called South Viet Nam, creating the present day Viet Nam Empire. Never since the time of Lucy through 1975 was there ever a unified country even remotely similar in area to what now constitutes Viet Nam.

Using the term "reunified" in connection with North Viet Nam empire expanding into what was once called South Viet Nam, former Cambodian territory, simple validates the old saying, "If you repeat a lie often enough it eventually becomes accepted as fact." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.118.95.165 (talk) 07:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The Nguyen Dynasty prior to French colonization ruled over a territory that emcompassed today's Vietnam. DHN (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Capital of French Indochina

Hanoi was always the capital of French Indochina, where based most of its central services: Indochina Bank, Indochina University, Indochina Medical College, Place of The Governor-General of French Indochina, etc. Why someone tried to move the capital of French Indochina to Saigon manytimes??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.203.114.174 (talk) 15:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Tống Bình

What is the meaning of Tống Bình? I assume it means "Song [Dynasty] Peace," some kind of propagandistic name assigned by the Chinese to imply that they owned this bit of real estate (and that it was peaceful). Badagnani (talk) 18:38, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Bình also means conquered (i.e make peaceful) that can trace back to the origin of the name?

Names of Hanoi

Where are all the names of Hanoi? Someone removed all the names of Hanoi (Thang Long, Dong Do, etc..) in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.71.1.101 (talk) 02:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Health care and other facilities

The "Family Medical Practice" is missing in this list: Hanoi Family Medical Practice [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.70.132.6 (talk) 05:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Population and Municipal Expansion

Did Hanoi's recent municipal expansion/annexation/reconstitution occur before or after the Census 2009 was taken? I ask, because the article seems to imply that Hanoi was formally expanded before the Census took place, yet the 2009 Census numbers posted as the population of the city in the infobox seem obviously to reflect the population of the pre-expanded city. Someone one to illuminate me, and make the proper corrections to the infobox? --Criticalthinker (talk) 04:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Additionally, the part of the article that discusses the aforementioned expansion (end of second-to-last paragraph in history section) is repeated in the following paragraph. Since the article is protected I don't believe I have the editing privelages to correct this. (Note: the second instance has no sources cited) Ghost650 (talk) 14:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

This is some information about HA NOI capital of VIET NAM . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.172.121.33 (talk • contribs)

Images in article

The images appearing in Hanoi#Geography should be fixed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.233.77.185 (talk) 12:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

On this note—the abundance of images at the top of this article (including the ones in the infobox) is making the "History" section look really squished. Furthermore, if I expand my browser window, the climate info in the Geography section collides with the main infobox. I'm viewing the page in Safari, if that helps. In fact, maybe I should be asking: does the main infobox really have to be so huge? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 23:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hanoi collaboration proposal

A collaboration proposal has been posted at WikiProject Vietnam to improve Hanoi to a GA-class article. Please stop by and indicate if you'd like to be part of a concerted effort to improve this article! --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 15:48, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 70.16.134.85, 1 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} In the history section there is a sentence that is poorly worded:

"In 1428, Vietnamese overthrown the Chinese under the leadership of Lê Lợi who later founded the posterior Lê Dynasty and renamed Đông Quan as Đông Kinh (東京, Eastern Capital - the name known to Europeans as Tonkin."

"Overthrown" is not the correct verb form. It should be "overthrew" and "Vietnamese" should probably be "the Vietnamese".

The corrected sentence would then be:

"In 1428, the Vietnamese overthrew the Chinese under the leadership of Lê Lợi who later founded the posterior Lê Dynasty and renamed Đông Quan as Đông Kinh (東京, Eastern Capital - the name known to Europeans as Tonkin."

70.16.134.85 (talk) 03:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Done And I went farther and changed more of the grammar—the parenthetical part was a problem, since you can't usually put multiple "sentences" separated by a period in a normal parenthetical aside). this map is featured in the game call of duty black ops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.73.67.251 (talk) 19:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Lede Name

Personally, I'm curious if all the accented names employed by this article actually are the common English names we should be using. It certainly doesn't help the page's appearance or legibility, except among people already fluent in Vietnamese (but why wouldn't they be at vi:Hà Nội?)

On the other hand, the lede should certainly be Hanoi and not Hà Nội or Thủ đô Hà Nội.

See WP:MOS (lede)#Foreign_language. — LlywelynII 18:47, 5 September 2011 (U

So you are claiming that the use of diacritics makes the word non-English? See how that one flies at Gdańsk or Łódź. I suggest that the opening should be Hà Nội. If the name is given as Hanoi, five minutes later someone will change it to "Hanoi (Vietnamese: Hà Nội)". Later on, the Chinese name will be added and who knows what else. The opening is certainly easier to read if only one name is given. This is now the style for the other Vietnam-related articles, which of course all have the same problem. Kauffner (talk) 04:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Chinese Characters

The Chinese characters clutter the article and serve virtually no purpose to readers of the English version. A Chinese version of this article already exists. Yes, Chinese characters have a history in Vietnam, however those characters have not been used by Vietnamese society for centuries, with the exception of a few traditional usages in/around temples. The vast majority of Vietnamese society cannot read Chinese. Using the Wiki article for "Vietnam" as a model, I'll be removing these characters in the coming days. VietGrant (talk) 21:22, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Any objections? I'd be happy to discuss them here before I begin the cleanup. VietGrant (talk) 17:20, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I object. Han tu were dropped only when French colonization occured, in 20 century. And han tu are the history of Vietnam. You said han tu were not used "for centuries", it is not true, they were used 100 years ago. Hanzi help people who understand chinese characters (who can read Chinese, Japanese or sophisticated Korean) to see the meaning of "Hanoi" word. Kf8 (talk) 13:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

IMO, putting these characters in the lede confuses readers into thinking that they are in current use. I showed them to some Vietnamese university students. They cannot even read them. There should not be more than two names in the opening anyway, according to WP:LEDE. The city has had various other names historically as well, as you can see in the history section. The post above distorts Vietnamese history. The French promoted the French language as an alternative to Classical Chinese. Alphabetic Vietnamese was a nationalist response. In Japan or Korea, throwing some Chinese characters into your writing is considered a mark of education. But Vietnamese do not learn any Chinese characters unless they take Chinese as a foreign language. Kauffner (talk) 15:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I know it. The exactly same situation is with North Korea: they do not understand Chinese characters. But many words were translated from hanzi to hangeul, so to see the source of the name we should see the hanzi. Moreover, in Vietnamese there are many homonyms, and hanzi help to distinguish them.

I respect Vietnamese identity and culture, I am no Chinese nationalist, hehe, I want to show people the Vietnamese history, that is why I think hanzi should be placed near the alphabet. Kf8 (talk) 06:34, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

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RfC on Vietnamese diacritics

RfC: Should the spelling of Vietnamese names follow the general usage of English-language reliable sources? Examples: Ngo Dinh Diem, Ho Chi Minh, and Saigon, or Ngô Đình Diệm, Hồ Chí Minh, and Sài Gòn. The RfC is here. Kauffner (talk) 15:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Note: to be clear, no-one is arguing that Hanoi should be titled Hà Nội; this is a strawman by Kauffner. The discussion concerns names which have not yet been sufficiently anglicized, and whether diacritics in titles should thus be stripped from all Vietnamese biographies, place names, musical instruments, and basically everything else, since Brittanica doesn't use VN diacritics.--KarlB (talk) 17:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Small comment on pollution

Isn't it worthy to mention that in this, otherwise really great, city you can hardly breath in summer due to really impressive smog and your eyes burn like hell after being outside for more than a couple of minutes?

br m — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.5.6.220 (talk) 10:11, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Economy

Would like to see what percent Hanoi has of Vietnam's GDP since the Ho Chi Minh City article has this. I realize the numbers may not be very attractive, but the article is to inform, not whitewash. Does anyone know the percent that Hanoi contributes to the Vietnamese economy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terraracer (talk • contribs) 08:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

According to this article Hanoi has contributed to 10.1% GDP of Vietnam in 2013.Tuanminh01 (talk) 14:49, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Timeline of Hanoi

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 15:25, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

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Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I read over this article quickly and made a few observations about some of the sections on this page.

Administrative divisions: The words "degraded" and "transformed" should be degraded and upgraded, to refer to the change in the categorization of a district. The District-level town (Vietnam) article should be cited for reference, as these terms are confusing to people unfamiliar with administrative divisions in Vietnam. Links should also be found for the terms commune-level towns (or townlets), communes, and wards, or else these terms should be briefly described.

Education: The link citing the statement that 62% of scientists in the whole country are located in Hanoi is from 2007, over 10 years ago. This information needs to be updated.--Mgslee (talk) 18:58, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Water balance ref

@Ltn12345: you've added a statement about water balance with a ref named "vietnamFAO", but no such ref exists on the page (there's another ref from fao.org, but it doesn't seem related to water balance). Could you please fill that in with the source information? Thanks. -- Fyrael (talk) 16:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Jakarta Skyline Part 2.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:55, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Linebacker B52 attack

I was hoping to find some information about Hanoi during the American war. But there is almost nothing written here and not a single picture. Is there another page I should consult? How abou operation Linebacker for instance? I also heard stories about American pilots that were captured by the Vietnamese population. Where there really no other casualties then the bridges mentioned at this page? It's hard to believe and probably not true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.86.90.39 (talk) 12:53, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mgslee.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Emblem of Hanoi.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)