Talk:Hartpury College

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Requested move 3 January 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:36, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Hartpury College → Hartpury University and Hartpury College – Hartpury University and Hartpury College has been the official name of the educational institution since it was granted full University status in September 2018. Hartpury College (talk) 15:49, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose this per WP:COMMONNAME. There is no doubt that the establishment has degree-awarding powers but it is universally referred to as “Hartpury College” in the press, and during my recent tidy-up of the article I couldn’t find any sources (other than the college’s own website) which use the verbose and awkward title “Hartpury College and University”. The attempts to re-insert this into the article, without referring to reliable sources, by an account named after the institution, is a clear marketing attempt. The article’s title should remain “Hartpury College”, and references to the subject within the article should be worded the same way. ElAhrairah inspect damage⁄berate 22:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with this, press sources currently use "College". Svejk74 (talk) 21:56, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hartpury University and Hartpury College was given degree-awarding powers in 2017. It was given full University status in September 2018. The difference between having degree-awarding powers and having University status is significant. The reason why more historical news sources refer to Hartpury University and Hartpury College as Hartpury College is that up until recent years it's official name was Hartpury College.
Below find just an example of recent sources that refer to Hartpury University and Hartpury College as either Hartpury University and Hartpury College, Hartpury University and College or reference Hartpury University:

HUandHC Andrew (talk) 14:52, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yet more input from a COI account. That dump of sources doesn't help; many are essentially press releases from the institution and are not independent. Many of the others use inconsistent nomenclature; some using "Hartpury College and University", some "Hartpury University". The majority of sources still use "Hartpury College" and that is by far the most likely thing a reader will type in the search box. ElAhrairah inspect damage⁄berate 18:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Please change page name to reflect business name[edit]

Hi Wikipedia, please could you change the name of this page to reflect the name of the institution? Hartpury University and Hartpury College? The institution is no longer Hartpury College. Thank you --Sophiechamings (talk) 17:13, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As you will note this was discussed above and will not go further for the moment.Svejk74 (talk) 19:24, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that it is important to point out, again, that this is COI account interference. A person with the same name as the user account posting here is the head of marketing and communications at Hartpury college. ElAhrairah inspect damage⁄berate 19:40, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest removal of the incident[edit]

Has anyone any comments regarding the proposal to remove a news article about killing a fox cub and posing with a dead cat. The story is a non-story in terms of an article about Hartpury College. It is heavily weighted towards animal protester opinions, I have attempted to change the wording to a neutral stance several times but it keeps being changed back. Only one of the sources is accurate with all the others gathered from sensationalistic newspaper articles. I don't believe this paragraph adds anything to the article and propose removal after discussion. Racingmanager (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is not "heavily weighted towards animal protestor opinions" and the fact you even interpret it as such is, to put it bluntly, odd. Neither is the Independent (one of the main sources "sensationalistic". You also seen to think the word "killing" is not neutral. Do you have a more neutral term for the act of killing something?
As this is one of the few times (indeed, possibly the only time) Hartpury College has made it into the national media it seems significant, and it did actually result in expulsion, so was clearly not a non-event.
Your attempts to reframe what was, as per the sources, an animal cruelty allegation as a "2017 incident" or a "student controversy" are also a bit desperate - the heading should tell us what the issue is, or was.Svejk74 (talk) 14:00, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You are missing the point entirely, I notice you don't mention anything in regard to my suggestion, re-it is a non-story and does not need to appear within the article. Additionally the fact that so many sources were put against the note including the Daily Mail, Gloucestershire Live and Bristol Post (Sources?) does indicate it is heavily weighted towards animal protestor opinions. The headline that you use clearly also indicates this, based on the fact that the police cleared the individuals of animal cruelty but you seem to want the animal cruelty headline included. Racingmanager (talk) 15:29, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As you seem to repeatedly miss various of my points I'll make this clear for you by doing it paragraph by paragraph.
First of all, on significance; if you actually read my comment you will note I say "As this is one of the few times (indeed, possibly the only time) Hartpury College has made it into the national media it seems significant". This isn't a BLP, so we can look a bit more broadly on what it is reasonable to include. Particularly as this is a college teaching animal husbandry.
"[that] many sources were put against the note including the Daily Mail, Gloucestershire Live and Bristol Post (Sources?) does indicate it is heavily weighted towards animal protestor opinions" - no, that merely indicates it was widely reported and sourced in depth. Is the Bristol Post particularly known as a paper for 'animal protestors' whatever they are (do you mean hunt saboteurs perhaps?) I think not.
"The headline that you use clearly also indicates this, based on the fact that the police cleared the individuals of animal cruelty". - No: cruelty was alleged; that's what the heading said. I dislike nonspecific "controversy" sections and unfortunately "2017 incident" tells us nothing, as I said. Care to suggest something more specific? "2017 fox stabbing incident"? "2017 student expulsion"? Svejk74 (talk) 16:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1 Try Google - very first search typing Hartpury College and Telegraph brings up a national rugby story. 2 When someone swamps a sentence with so many sources of any type they are trying to justify the entry. 3 Why use a headline of animal cruelty allegations when it was proven otherwise. However saying all of that we could continue the disagreement forever so I am happy with your suggestion of 2017 student expulsion because it is sensible.Racingmanager (talk) 16:26, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Another editor has deleted this section with the comment "deleting irrelevant section, not encyclopaedic and does not add to an understanding of the subject".I have reverted this as the section seems well-sourced and relevant to the college but we can discuss if others disagree. Tacyarg (talk) 19:50, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Intro is innaccurate...[edit]

The lead sentence stating the universit's for on academic majors make to sense, respectfully. Animal & equine is veterinary. I made this change to clear this up but was reverted. Stating that a academic institution specializes in all three is redundant. Thank you for your feedback. 50.77.126.149 (talk) 16:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but it looks as if it is from the college's own website: "Hartpury University and Hartpury College are among the UK’s leading specialist education providers in agriculture, animal, equine, sport and veterinary nursing". I have made it into a quote and linked to the website. Not quite sure that this is the right way to go, but will see what other editors think. Thanks for your input.
The numbers on the college website don't seem to add up - over 4,000 students but "1,800 students completing undergraduate and postgraduate degrees as well as higher education diplomas and postgraduate research degrees" plus "1,800 students studying A-levels and diplomas" = 3,600, as the article currently says. Unless they have 400+ studying for other qualifications.
Page could do with being renamed too. Tacyarg (talk) 20:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Deciding that "animal & equine is veterinary" is your own personal interpretation and we should avoid this in articles. Stating Hartpury is a veterinary specialist centre gives the impression it offers a veterinary medicine degree required to practice as a vet, which it does not, as far as I'm aware. ElAhrairah inspect damage⁄berate 16:33, 26 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Page updates[edit]

Hello editors. We would very much like to work with you to get some basic factual (not marketing) updates made on the Hartpury University / College business page.

We understand your important role, protecting the integrity that Wikipedia offers and appreciate the need to abide by your codes of practice. Given this, would it be appropriate for us to suggest possible factual additions, for example, about our history and estate details, to the article on this talk page for moderators to discuss and decide whether appropriate? Many thanks for considering it. HUandHC Andrew (talk) 16:59, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suggesting this here sounds a good plan to me. Tacyarg (talk) 20:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Page move/title update[edit]

Hi there, I appreciate this has been requested before but, given the institution's increased reputation and knowledge publicly of the name change that occurred over four years ago, I hope you will agree that it now would be fair to move/retitle this page to the full business name - Hartpury University and Hartpury College. By way of full disclosure, I am an employee of the organisation. My intention here is simply to ensure it is accurately referenced online, and particularly via high authority pages such as Wikipedia, as a provider of both university and college courses. You will notice I have been slowly making changes to that end over recent weeks. Thanks for your consideration. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 23:00, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Setting aside the conflict of interest issues and that this user has been editing the article. I wasn't part of the earlier discussion but it looks to me as if reliable sources do indicate that this is a university. See the Office of Students Register entry. If I am reading this correctly, Hartpury has university status despite not having degree awarding powers. On this basis, I would cautiously support a change of name for the article. Though WP:SIGCOV in reliable non-primary sources would clearly be preferable - here for instance is the Guardian in 2021 calling it a college. Tacyarg (talk) 17:28, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add, though not connected with the renaming, that I'd like to see better references for the National Student Survey results and Whatuni Student Choice Awards. I can't find any national and non-primary coverage of either measure, and am wondering if they are not in fact notable achievements. Tacyarg (talk) 19:25, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the response. For clarity, I am asking for the page to be moved/retitled to Hartpury University and Hartpury College, which is the correct name of the institution, as in fact the article you have cited confirms. Hartpury does also have the degree awarding powers afforded to any other UK university. I'm unsure how I can provide better references with regards the accolades than 1. a regional media outlet and 2. the awarding body itself. Both credentials are of national importance and I would be happy to specifically include this detail with citation if required. I'd appreciate any further advice on these items. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 20:10, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please advise any other required steps, or when the move is likely to happen? Thank you again. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 14:32, 7 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please confirm when the page move will happen, or any other steps required at this time. Thank you. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 22:23, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am hesitant to make the move without other input as I note that it has been protected because of previous moves against talk page consensus. Do any other editors have views? Tacyarg (talk) 22:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not very comfortable with the way the college is approaching this, to be honest. Are there not any better secondary sourced that might override WP:COMMONNAME, as I think the latter still indicates 'Hartpury College'. Svejk74 (talk) 17:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your ongoing consideration. There are a number of sources confirming Hartpury's university and associated awarding powers status. For example https://www.businessinnovationmag.co.uk/gloucestershires-hartpury-college-awarded-university-status. In light of your comments, I'd also appreciate your feedback on how else to approach this matter and any others that may arise moving forwards. As I have said; we are merely trying to ensure the page is factual, which at the moment it is not. Thank you again. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 20:47, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I have not received any response to my previous message. Can I please ask when this move is likely to be made and/or any other information that is required. Happy to provide relevant sources. The institution has held university status for over four years now, and its degree awarding powers have even been acknowledged in some of the threads above. It is referred to as such throughout the main article, factually. It is only the page title that requires correcting. An alternative could be to create a standalone page for the university, if required. Thank you. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 19:48, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've raised this over at WikiProject Higher Education: here. Tacyarg (talk) 00:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the update. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 06:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hartpury is certainly a university now, and it is certain that the formal name of the institution is Hartpury University and Hartpury College. However, the WP:CRITERIA for an article title identify the following five criteria:

  • Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize.
  • Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.
  • Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects.
  • Concision – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
  • Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles.

The policy goes on to give the example: "For instance, the recognizable, natural, and concise title United Kingdom is preferred over the more precise title United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

A bit further down the same page, WP:COMMONNAME states that "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above."

With this in mind, I have to ask whether "Hartpury University and Hartpury College" is really the best name. The shorter name "Hartpury University" is used by UCAS[1], the Complete University Guide[2], Higher Education Degree Datacheck[3] and others. This might be a better title as it is both more natural and more concise. Robminchin (talk) 02:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting question, with valid points on each side, for me "Hartpury University" seems a better title for the reasons Robminchin just gave. Benjamin1995a (talk) 15:23, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the response. I should stress that Hartpury provides both College and University level study, which is reflected by the institution name. Are you suggesting separate pages/entries for College and University, or a combined page move? If the latter, I would suggest that Hartpury University and Hartpury College remains the strongest all-encompassing option for the move, as well as being the business name. Thanks again. 77.99.229.235 (talk) 10:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say I still think this stinks of a PR move by the institution itself. There are plenty of degree-awarding institutions in the UK which are called "college" so there really isn't any need to clarify further. Absolutely nobody calls it "Hartpury University and Hartpury College" just like nobody says "I'm from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". I find it hard to hold my nose when this is clearly part of a business case from Hartpury to expand their offering to fee-paying students. I think the current title is most in line with COMMONNAME and I just don't see any need to change it, other than satisfy the interests of the organisation itself. "Please explain to us what we need to do to get this changed" kinda sums up the fact that they are doing this for their own interests, not Wikipedia's. ElAhrairah inspect damage⁄berate 09:53, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. It seems clear that nearly all media sources simply call it "Hartpury College" - in common with the way agricultural colleges were usually titled in the UK. There is certainly little evidence for much use of "university".Svejk74 (talk) 14:10, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, I feel the last two replies from ElAhriairah and Svejk74 are a little aggressive. It has been established that the institution is a university on several occasions, both within this talk section by Wikipedia admins and via multiple sources provided over a long period of time. Likewise, any conflict of interest has been declared from the outset and requests and responses have been respectful of Wikipedia's own processes and protocols throughout. Hartpury has existed as a university in name and with full degree awarding powers in its own right since 2018, which also speaks to the rather outdated point that it is always referred to as Hartpury College colloquially (no longer the case), therefore Wikipedia's page title is incorrect. Many students apply to Hartpury University with no previous knowledge of the College provision, so would have never known or referred to Hartpury as ‘Hartpury College’. As I have said, if it aligns more closely with the Wikipedia protocols to develop two separate pages, rather than move the existing page, then that is the route I will explore. Likewise, to the point of "Please explain to us what we need to do to get this changed", I don't feel it is unreasonable to ask advice of the Wikipedia editorial team when dealing with, admittedly, relatively complicated requests of this type. Thanks again. SDMACO86hartpury (talk) 08:37, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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