Talk:Hector Mountains

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that on two separate occasions, the Tapuae-o-Uenuku / Hector Mountains have permanently redirected water away from the Mataura River? Source: FMC, p.11 (About five million years ago the Nevis Valley drained south to the Mataura catchment. Uplift of the Garvie and Tapuae-o-Uenuku/Hector Mountains cut off this exit) and Turnbull, p. 6 (The eastern Mataura outlet was blocked by alluvial fan gravels from Lorn Peak)
    • ALT1: ... that the Tapuae-o-Uenuku / Hector Mountains have been an important mahinga kai for Māori for over 600 years? Source: FMC, p. 19 (The Nevis Valley has a long history of human activity with at least two recorded pre-European sites dating from around the 14th century) and BWA, p.10 (Tangata Whenua uses/values – mahinga kai, nohoanga and te ara tawhito.)
    • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Geko (rapper)
    • Comment: Fewer than 5 articles nominated but still finding an article for QPQ (edit: updated 22:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC) with QPQ review)

Created by Turnagra (talk). Self-nominated at 22:11, 18 April 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  • New enough and long enough. Extra QPQ really appreciated. The hook sources look fine, but I have two questions for Turnagra on wording. #1, I see the article remained at Hector Mountains without a dual name after an RM closed—should the hooks follow suit? and #2, we have no article on mahinga kai but the term really needs linking or translation; what would be appropriate? Please ping when you have answers. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:01, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking a look at this one Sammi – in response to your questions, I think the dual name is the most appropriate still, it's used throughout the article and is the actual name of the place, article title aside. As for mahinga kai, it's essentially a place which was revered as a source of natural resources, especially food (some sources are here and here). I usually describe it in articles as a food gathering site as that's generally the easiest way to translate it, so perhaps adding that in parentheses after the term if we go with that one? Turnagra (talk) 09:06, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Turnagra: I have no personal objection to using the dual name, especially in ALT1 when the indigenous usage is mentioned and because it provides another clue that this is a New Zealand topic, but I do note that another promoter might feel differently. I am ALT0 and the below ALT1a: Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:08, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1a: ... that the Tapuae-o-Uenuku / Hector Mountains have been an important mahinga kai (food gathering site) for Māori for over 600 years?

Requested move 27 April 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 15:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hector Mountains → Tapuae-o-Uenuku / Hector Mountains – Reverting an undiscussed move to an old name which is no longer in use in sources. Turnagra (talk) 22:05, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Discussion copied from WP:RM/TR below. Polyamorph (talk) 08:33, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • According to Ngrams, the name which shows little use is Tapuae-o-Uenuku / Hector Mountains, while Hector Mountains show considerable and continued use? A Google News search shows the same thing, with two results for your preferred title (both in the context of renaming the peak, rather than in general use), compared to 36 for Hector Mountains. BilledMammal (talk) 22:49, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      The correct approach if a move is contested is to revert to the stable title and take out a move request. I and others have consistently pointed out the limitations of ngrams in this context, which you continue to ignore. In terms of your google news search, it actually only seemed to find 15 results, of which 3 are from before the name was introduced, 3 are about the renaming proposal, 3 are completely unrelated, and 1 isn't in English at all. The newest of the remaining five is from 2017, and doesn't properly reflect recent usage. For a more contemporary example, we could look at the Federated Mountain Clubs usage of Tapuae-o-Uenuku / Hector Mountains, or the articles around their proposal for a national park in the area. Turnagra (talk) 23:25, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      You've claimed limitations, but never fully explained them, and what you have explained I disagree with - see this Ngram for additional evidence, as even if there were additional uses in an obscure format, they would be found under a search for the Maori portion of the name. As for the results, your count appears correct - eight relevant results for Hector Mountains (three related to the change), compared to three relevant results for Tapuae-o-Uenuku / Hector Mountains (two related to the change), with the most recent for both being from 2017. These still support the article being at Hector Mountains. BilledMammal (talk) 01:45, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm sure you have disagreed, as it seems to be the only tool in your box when opposing these moves. In this instance, something is clearly up with ngrams as - even if this range weren't in consideration - it should be picking up content for the other Tapuae-o-Uenuku, which it isn't. I'll do a proper write up on it at some point, but this isn't the place for it.
      In terms of the move at hand, here are another four articles - adding to this that you left one article off your count for the dual name (there are three articles related to the name change, not two) it's suddenly eight all. This is also not even mentioning the FMC proposal which you conveniently ignored in your response. At any rate, as I mentioned previously all this proves is that the move is contentious and should be reverted to the previous stable name so that the proposal is able to go to a formal request if the user so wishes. Turnagra (talk) 02:27, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      You're right - I had forgotten that it processes it as "Tapuae - o - Uenuku". Accounting for that in our search, by looking for "Uenuku / Hector Mountains", we still find minimal use of the dual name. The issue isn't with ngrams - while the query is sometimes wrong, and I appreciate you helping me to correct the queries - the data is accurate, and instead the issue is that the dual name is rarely used.
      One of those links is the one you provided above, and another comes from a different search engine, PressReader - and when we look for Hector Mountains, we find 38 results, most of which appear to be relevant. Meanwhile, there is only one article there using the dual name. Even when we look for articles using any dual name for the same mountain there are only eight results.
      While expanding the search beyond Google News is useful and provides additional evidence, this additional evidence only proves that the common name is Hector Mountains. BilledMammal (talk) 02:59, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      I think, as I've said numerous times, it actually proves that this is contentious and shouldn't have been moved without a discussion. Turnagra (talk) 03:32, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      And I think it demonstrates your original claim, old name which is no longer in use in sources, which you presented as justification for this, is incorrect. Prior to raising this request, did you look into usage to determine which name is the WP:COMMONNAME? BilledMammal (talk) 03:33, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Of course I did, as well as considering the wider national trend within NZ English to use dual names. I'd like to remind you of WP:AGF again, as I seem to all to often. Turnagra (talk) 03:40, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      EDIT: For clarity, this was in response to an earlier wording which was more accusatory towards my approach to these articles. Turnagra (talk) 03:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      If we want to discuss WP:AGF, then I would like to ask that you rethink comments like which you continue to ignore in the future.
      To return to the topic, my overall point is that this request seems to be ill-considered, given you were unable to identify the numerous current uses prior to making it. BilledMammal (talk) 03:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Dual article titles are generally discouraged, and the current title appears to be the most common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you explain how you see a dual name such as this as being different to something like Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport? Turnagra (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dallas, Texas and Fort Worth, Texas are two different cities and the airport is named for both of them. The Hector Mountains and Tapuae-o-Uenuku are not two different things, they are just two different names for the same thing. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:46, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Recent sources, especially those in the last couple years, almost exclusively use the dual name. Books and articles posted above by BilledMammal are largely from soon after the shift - since which point dual names have become much more widely used in New Zealand. Further to this, this move would revert a unilateral undiscussed move which was carried out yesterday - if anything, that move should have been reverted with the move request instead for that user to propose their original move through proper channels. Turnagra (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per the systematic evidence presented above, the WP:COMMONNAME since the change has continued to be "Hector Mountains". It is also not true that there has been a recent shift towards the dual name, with articles from 2020, 2018, and 2018, and 2016 preferring "Hector Mountains". For contrast, the most recent independent source I have found using the dual name is from 2015 2017. BilledMammal (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you trying to say that the Federated Mountain Clubs, or the various articles which reported on that in 2021, aren't independent sources? Turnagra (talk) 22:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, meant 2017 (when those articles were from). As for the FMC, they are probably independent, but I don't know if their website is a reliable source - and I assume that webpage is also from 2017. It's also worth mentioning the Google Trend results, which shows that very few people actually use the dual name, preferring the shorter "Hector Mountains". BilledMammal (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    To add: the proposed name is less WP:NATURAL, less WP:RECOGNIZABLE (readers might confuse it with Tapuae-o-Uenuku), and less WP:CONCISE. BilledMammal (talk) 01:27, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per above evidence of common name, but also because the current title provides a natural disambiguation for the mountain range from the mountain of the same name to the northeast, Tapuae-o-Uenuku. — HTGS (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The disambiguation point is redundant here, as the dual name is sufficiently distinct from the mountain already. Turnagra (talk) 01:12, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If only disambiguation were as simple as a binary. — HTGS (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Reagan and HTGS. I don't see how the current title isn't the common name. --Spekkios (talk) 02:06, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tapuae-o-Uenuku[edit]

Tapuae-o-Uenuku is not a widely accepted historical English name appropriate to the given context at Hector Mountains#Human interaction - Tapuae-o-Uenuku is not a historical English name. BilledMammal (talk) 05:03, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What do you make of the various names used in the historical section of Beijing, or the use of Fustat in Cairo? None of those were used historically in English, and they're still perfectly fine in the article. Tapuae-o-Uenuku is unambiguously what how it was referred to at the time, and your insistence of removing damn near every reference to that name in the article – all the while introducing a whole host of grammatical errors due to being so focused on deleting the Māori name – feels bordering on bad faith when taken in the wider context. Turnagra (talk) 07:30, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Tapuae-o-Uenuku is unambiguously what it was referred to in Maori, but we call it what it is referred to in English - if that is Tapuae-o-Uenuku, then we use Tapuae-o-Uenuku, and if it is Hector Mountains, then we use Hector Mountains. As for your references to other articles, Fustat is a different city from Cairo, and I believe that Beijing is not a direct successor of Jicheng (Beijing) either.
As for the rest of your comment, previously you said I'd like to remind you of WP:AGF again. I would like to remind you of the same. BilledMammal (talk) 08:11, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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