Talk:Helston/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Changes by LessHeard vanU

I have made several changes to the entry for Helston, and would comment on a few as follows;

Coins were not manufactured in Helston - tin ingots, once essayed by the Customs man, were "coined" i.e. stamped with the Regents mark. The term "stamp" was not used since this term was mining parlance for the crushing of the ore. However, some of the surrounding tin mine owners were permitted to make and distribute their own coins (to be spent in businesses operated by the said mine owners). The "Poldark Mine" themed amusement park in nearby Wendron, formerly a working mine, is a remnant of this practice, issuing "pennies" that can only be spent onsite. This may have been the source of some of the confusion.

Helston was until only a couple of years ago a market town. The recent Foot and Mouth epidemic finally closed the cattle market, which had been already badly hit by the BSE crisis. At the time of writing a few sheds still remain on the old site. As it was the major town in the area the market was an important feature. With the demise of the cattle market all that remains is a few stalls which are put up in the main street every Monday.

The current St. Michaels Church is only some 200 years old - although the site itself goes back to antiquity.

I have worked in Helston for the past 8 years, and locally for some years before.LessHeard vanU 22:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Inadvertent vandalism

Apologies to all Helstonians - browser crash and restore left me editing (as I thought) the Transport section and accidentally deleting all the rest of the article. Sorry - all better now. Springnuts 19:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Grammar School

Article says: "As a grammar school it boasted Samuel Taylor Coleridge as a headmaster, one of his pupils being Charles Kingsley". Derwent Coleridge, one of ST Coleridge's sons, was headmaster. The WP article on Kingsley makes no mention of Helston and doesn't locate him anywhere near Helston during his childhood. Vernon White ^{. . . Talk} 22:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There's a footnote in A. L. Rowse "Matthew Arnold - Poet and Prophet" ISBN 050001163x Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: invalid character, chap 2, p25, about John Duke Coleridge, "Oddly enough, J. D. Coleridge had been at Helston Grammar School in Cornwall with Charles Kingsley". Thomas Arnold, Matthew's father, was an old friend of S. T. Coleridge. DuncanHill (talk) 14:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

OK Kingsley did go to the Grammar School, this from Boston College Libraries at [1]

Charles Kingsley was born on 12 June 1819 at Holne Vicarage near Dartmoor, Devonshire. His father, Charles, though reared to be a country gentleman, had taken Holy Orders because of the financial mismanagement of his inheritance. Kingsley's mother, Mary, more worldly and practical than his father, was born in the West Indies and came from a line of Barbadian sugar-plantation owners. After a short stay at a small preparatory school in Clifton, Kingsley was sent to Helston Grammar School in Cornwall, where the Reverend Derwent Coleridge, Samuel Taylor Coleridge's son, was headmaster. Kingsley was not academically outstanding, though he displayed great interest in art and natural science, especially botany and geology, and wrote much poetry. After the family moved to London in 1836 Kingsley entered King's College as a day student. He did well and in the autumn of 1838 went to Magdalene College, Cambridge, where he graduated with a first class in classics and a second in mathematics.

I shall amend the article text accordingly. DuncanHill (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Kingsley's ODNB article confirms Helston Grammar School. WP Article on Kingsley said "Bristol Grammar". Have changed this too.Vernon White ^{. . . Talk} 18:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Grammar School alumni

ODNB text search "Helston Grammar School" gives -

Edmonds, Richard (1801–1886), antiquary and geologist
...political economist Thomas Rowe Edmonds. He was educated at Penzance grammar school and, from 1816, at Helston grammar school. He was articled as an attorney with his father in ...
Johns, Charles Alexander (1811–1874), writer on natural history ... Plymouth, where he added the ‘s’ to his surname. In 1831 Johns was second master at Helston grammar school, under the Revd Derwent Coleridge 1800–1883. Charles ...his ambivalent attitude towards popular politics in later years. The following year the boys went to Helston grammar school in Cornwall, a small school run by Revd Derwent Coleridge, ...
Rogers, John (1778–1856), Church of England clergyman and biblical scholar ...for Penryn and Helston, and his wife, Margaret, daughter of Francis Basset. Rogers was educated at Helston grammar school, at Eton College, and at Trinity College, Oxford. He matriculated ...
Trengrouse, Henry (1772–1854), inventor of life-saving apparatus ...d. 1784. The family had long been the principal freeholders in Helston. Henry was educated at Helston grammar school, and lived in the town all his life. He was ...
Trevenen, James (1760–1790), naval officer in the British and Russian services ...of John Trevenen, curate of Camborne, and Elizabeth, née Tellam d. 1799. He was educated at Helston grammar school and from 1773 at the Royal Naval Academy at Portsmouth, ...

Vernon White ^{. . . Talk} 18:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

St Michael

How do I change the article from St George to St Michael? I changed it once and it's changed back! In the Hal-an-Tow it is OF COURSE St. Michael, patron saint of Helston, (who gives his name to the parish church and the local primary school) who kills the Devil (in the form of a dragon) and NOT St. George! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.63.173.241 (talk) 06:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless I've got my Hal an Tow very wrong (which lets face it, isn't impossible) doesn't St George kill the dragon AND St Michael kill the devil one after the other? All four are definitely present, St George with the red cross on his shield and St Michael.. with, well.. himself on his shield. Harrias (talk) 15:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

History

For such an ancient town the amount of historical information seems inadequate.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 03:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The link to http://www.helstonhistory.co.uk/ came up as broken today.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 03:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Works for me, now. Perhaps the Piskies were out when you clicked? LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

That is possible: cyberspace has all sorts of ways of going wrong like bugs, gremlins, etc.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 12:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Tsunamis before 1301

″However, the flint content of the sand was also found in Mounts Bay and this was washed up during the tsunamis up to 1301 AD;″^[1]

^ Mr. Martin Matthews, ex curator of Helston museum.

Could we have a proper reference for these tsunamis please? Mr Matthews must have had a source for his information. Jowaninpensans (talk) 12:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

The above is not a reference in the accepted sense and no proof has been given that Helston was ever a port. Please provide the article with a credible reference for the port of Helston. The ship rings and moorings mentioned in the article could easily refer to boats being moored on a lake. An assumption has been made, and repeated many times, that the rights were bought to use Gweek as a port, therefore Loe Bar was formed at this time. The buying of rights to use Gweek as a port does not prove that Loe Bar was formed at this time. If I was a merchant in Helston and most of my clients were to the east, I would opt to use Gweek as a port — it makes economic sense, as the alternative of using a port in Mount's Bay is slower, and there is a greater risk to ships and goods sailing around Lizard Point. Jowaninpensans (talk) 00:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

There is no proof that the Loe Bar was formed at that time in 1260 but, according to Toy's history of Helston, slurry built up in the bottom of Helston Cober valley that is now 15 feet above sea level. Remnants of a forest have been found under part of Castle Green car park, when digging down for the weigh bridge that used to be in the vicinity. Also a tree about 30 feet down under the brick building of the new cattle market was assessed by carbon fourteen as up to 3,000 years old and of the same type as those in Mounts Bay before 1014, when the sea 'inundated Mounts Bay and many people were drowned', according to a Saxon chronicle written in Latin. Also, hazelnuts and leaves have been found in Mounts Bay in a very low tide: these would have long since decayed from the Ice Age. I would have to be very naive to believe that Loe Bar was there in between two sections of the same forest. In Celtic times, at least, St. Michael's Mount was inland, hence "Carrek Los yn Cos", slightly corrupted to what it is called in St. Michael's Mount site of Mounts Bay, meaning 'hoar rock in the wood'. I also possess a branch washed up from an 1860's tree under the sea there. So, from whatever angle you view it, the Geomorphologists' theory of the Loe Bar and Mounts Bay is wholly inadmissible. The sea is known to have risen throughout the 13th century and, as the Geomorpholigists correctly put it, Loe Bar was also partly formed by the Long Shore Drifts. All this means that the period of any sea traffic to Helston port in post Bronze Age times would have been limited to well after 1014 and before 1260 when Helstonians bought in their shipping rites from Gweek that was a port since pre-historic times. This was also the reason for the Motte and Bailey style castle (to guard the harbour), that the Wikipedia so rightly stated was there before the 1280 castle that was in ruins by 1478. Someone has actually seen what appeared as decayed seaweed below Helston Tubban. When St. Johns road was excavated 15 feet down in the early 1980s slipways were seen as well as mooring rings. It must be remembered that records were not printed in those days and the likelihood of the retention of such is highly unlikely. However, it is alleged that a record exists in the Domesday Book as to Henlistone(a) and its port; but, confirmation is needed for that reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.59.118.106 (talk) 10:11, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I find it difficult to follow you assumptions,

I do not have access to the Saxon chronicle you refer to but even if there was an inundation and many died it does not mean that Loe Bar was formed then. Or for that matter Mount's Bay was formed
Present sea levels were established about 6,000 years ago. There will be local differences, e.g. due to the retreat of ice sheets, land in Scotland rising and south-east England falling.
The sea is known, by whom, to have risen in the 13th century?
The bar is partially maintained by longshore drift, not formed by it.
I keep asking, where are the records for a harbour? Mousehole, Newlyn, Penzance, Marazion and one other (forget name) are known to have had medieval harbours. Out of interest, why wasn't Porthleven a harbour?
Lakes can have slips, quays and mooring rings. It is even possible that small ships can be dragged over land, such as happened in Orkney or Shetland by Vikings!
Would Cornwall Archaeological Society have reported your harbour during digs? Can we have a reference from whoever did these digs, so we can look at their interpretation.

Jowaninpensans (talk) 14:25, 31 May 2014 (UTC) It is unlikely that any reports would have been sent to the C.A.S., since older Helstonians did not like to talk about the pool, due to people drowning there and possibly the stupid myth as to King Arthur's sword being buried there. Porthleven actually was a small harbour in the fourteenth century even after the transfer of shipping rites to Gweek in 1260. A local researcher for Helston Old Cornwall Society has found evidence as to the port customs being transferred to Gweek, although retaining their house in Helston. I heard yesterday that when the petrol tanks were checked last century after insertion underground they were actually floating on subterranean water.194.60.136.6 (talk) 15:47, 11 May 2015 (UTC)Andrew194.60.136.6 (talk) 15:47, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Defoe and Carew

Below was added to my user talkpage at an obscure place: Jowaninpensans (talk) 18:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Daniel Defoe's ideas of Helston as a port - scarcely left the Angel hotel, so he really saw little evidence that Helston was ever a port, but suggested the lower area would have made an ideal venue for a port. The Bar was thrown up nearly 500 years before his death and it is extremely unlikely that there was any port in Helston before 1014. 217.35.102.102 (talk) 11:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)Andrew Henry Gray217.35.102.102 (talk) 11:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Quite agree with you re Defoe's description of a port, which is why Carew's description follows in the same sentence along with an exclaimation mark! I have followed the sentences with references which you do not seem to do. You never produce evidence for the date of the Bar. If people i.e. Geomorphologists' are unable to provide a date why do you think you can? Incidently the Cornwall and Scilly Historic Environment Record (HER) is available online and I could not find any reference to a harbour below Helston. Jowaninpensans (talk) 18:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Some of the above has continued on User talk:Werdna Yrneh Yarg talk page. Jowaninpensans (talk) 17:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

St Johns Road

The following sentence was added on 20 August 2014 by Werdna Yrneh Yarg:

However, subsequently archaeological evidences have been seen, including the findings under St. Johns Road about 35 years ago.^[1]

What are the archaeological evidences and findings?

Is the name Patrick Carroll really a reference?

Jowaninpensans (talk) 11:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Who knows?

No. Harrias ^talk 14:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

^ Patrick Carroll.

Most southerly town in the UK

Checking the longitude indicates that Hugh Town of Scilly is futher south than Helston. AFAIK Scilly is part of the UK and of England.

Perhaps this claim needs to be amended to state that Helston is the most southerly town on the island of Great Britain.Eregli bob (talk) 19:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Changes regarding Citations of the History section

I have edited the history section with citation needed tags for the various claims that have been added with little to no cited evidence. I removed a claim from the same section that the Domesday Book states that Helston was a port - I checked and found this to be unfounded. I'm not sure as to whether citing "Mr Martin Matthews, ex-curator of Helston Museum" - is sufficient as a citation? I feel the article would benefit from the original source being cited, rather than who related it.

The above problem is occurring again and again, and we seem to be continually going over the same old stuff with no evidence being provided. Jowaninpensans (talk) 11:23, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the Domesday entry doesn't provide any direct evidence that Helston was a port, but it does provide some indirect evidence. Helston is at that time by far the most populous place in western Cornwall, almost the whole of Cornwall. That needs some explanation. There are a large number of "ale-men" recorded and I haven't a clue what that means. Does it point to a large brewery?? At the same time there is almost nobody recorded near Gweek - only a small settlement at 'Mawgan' about a mile away. Clearly one can't take the points on a map too seriously, but it does suggest that there wasn't a port at Gweek at the time. Nevertheless, Helston declined after the 11th century relative to other places such as Truro and the loss of being an effective port would be a reasonable explanation. I don't have a copy of Toy's History of Helston (~~now available via Amazon for little more than £5~~ no, this is a 1912 pamphlet available on the web) so I don't know what else he says on the subject apart from a large export business being conducted by one of the townsmen in the 12th century. Chris55 (talk) 12:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, my Encyclopedia Britannica (15th Edn 1993) says: "In the 13th century, Helston, lying in the extreme southwest of England, was western Cornwall's most important town, having a harbour on the River Cober which now extends into Loo Pool." (v5 p821) The online version clarifies this as "which then connected with Mount’s Bay but now drains into a landlocked lake". It's a moot point whether we should quote a tertiary source in the article. Chris55 (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

The Helston Town council website is a bit more specific: "Like most towns, Helston had its own fortification. This was in the form of a castle which was situated in the vicinity of the Bowling Green. It is reputed to have been built during the reign of Edmund, Earl of Cornwall (1272-1300). The location of the fortification was chosen because at that time enemy ships had access to the town from the sea. The incoming tide met with the River Cober and formed a tidal creek. Towards the end of the 13th Century, Helston was completely cut off from the sea by a sudden formation of a bank of shingle known as the Loe Bar. This blocked the mouth of the creek." Chris55 (talk) 18:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Mr Toy put forward a model for the formation of Loe Bar which is not accepted by geologists. The only date geologists will put on the formation of Loe Bar and similar bars such as at Swanpool is sometime after the last ice age. Archaeologists at Cornwall Archaeological Society and Historic Environment at Cornwall Council do not claim there was a harbour at Helston. Helston Council are very specific on the location of the harbour and the formation of Loe Bar – how did they know all that? Did someone witness it and write it down? Once something is written down and repeated it then becomes the "truth" whether it happened or not. This is what happened with Helston's supposed harbour. Where is the evidence? Jowaninpensans (talk) 21:50, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Mercifully, Wikipedia is not required to make a judgement about the truth of assertions made. It only requires a reliable source. These two are very close to being that, though it should not be stated as a proven fact. I realise there is ongoing discussion of the bar and geologists and archeologists are naturally cautious, but they seem to ignore historical evidence. Why was Helston the largest settlement in west Cornwall?

The geological case is simply that the material that forms the bar must have arrived after the last ice age. However if you look at the shape of Mount's Bay it is a depression 20-30m deep so any eddies could have been formed at much lower sea levels and kept the material swilling around. When the bar across the river was formed is an entirely different matter. Chris55 (talk) 09:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The history of a town should be factual not a work of fiction, which is what Toy’s views are – the harbour is his opinion, not fact. The same goes for Helston Town Council’s story.
You say When the bar across the river was formed is an entirely different matter. I would have thought it was very important with regards to the story of the (imaginary) harbour. Jowaninpensans (talk) 14:13, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Have you read anything by Spencer Toy? The work I'm thinking of is "The Loe Bar near Helston, Cornwall" which was published in the Geographical Journal in 1934 (Vol. 83, No. 1 (Jan., 1934), pp. 40-47). That's as solid a refereed paper as you can get and certainly not 'fiction'. In that paper he doesn't mention a harbour. Apart from discussing the mechanisms (which may well have been superseded today) he does however chart the increase in size of the bar since 1302 to the 16th century when it still used to be regularly breached by storms, to the 19th century when it was noticeably smaller than it is today. He doesn't unfortunately go back to the 13th century in that paper. And as for my other comment, yes, it is a different matter: the two events could be thousands of years apart. Have you never seen the effect that a single storm can have on a beach? Chris55 (talk) 19:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The paper you refer to is almost 80 years old and even refereed papers can become out of date! I stand corrected re Toy but see reference 16 on the Helston page, which is used as a reference for a harbour. The bar changes – what is your point? It doesn't prove a harbour. I live near the sea; seeing the effect of storms is irrelevant to Helston's history. You are not producing any evidence for a harbour. Jowaninpensans (talk) 00:33, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

You are seeing references to harbours where none exist!! The Toy [16] reference is used to support the case that a large-scale export of corn from Helston was occurring in the 12th century. I personally haven't any evidence for a harbour (yet) beyond the citations above. Chris55 (talk) 08:37, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Quote from article: This could be considered the most significant piece of documentary evidence signifying Helston's former port days, though it does not prove the case. Jowaninpensans (talk) 12:44, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't really think "port" and "harbour" are synonyms. e.g. Southampton is a major port but doesn't have significant harbours. But let's not get too concerned about words: I assumed that you were putting more weight on the possibility of archeological remains or the lack of them. What I'm saying is that there could have been plenty of shipping without the significant construction there is in say Penzance or Falmouth. So it is important to look at the historical records such as they are. Chris55 (talk) 19:34, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I missed the reference of Toy's due to it not making any reference to Helston; but nutcase as I was, I should have realised that the first chapter and, particularly pages 17 and 18, all refer to Helston in their context! Regarding a harbour, Toy mentions nothing about it - he keeps to facts as he understands them - as Chris55 rightly stated. The quicker everyone just accepts the evidences that have been (and still are) seen, the more time will be saved on this discussion; but I cannot make any reference to what I or others have witnessed unless it be suitably documented, as this Administrator necessarily pointed out, that blogs are quite unacceptable for Wikipedia. In short, the documentation is scant; the evidences are plentiful. Andrew H. Gray (talk) 20:28, 4 November 2015 (UTC)Andrew

You keep mentioning ″evidences″ but never produce any real evidence. The Cornwall Archaeological Society publish a journal as do other archaeology and history organisations. Get your ″evidences″ published by a reputable organisation. We just go over the same old stuff, again and again. Jowaninpensans (talk) 00:33, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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[Mathews-1] Mr. Martin Matthews, ex curator of Helston museum.

[2] Patrick Carroll.

[1]

[1]