Talk:Henry Purcell/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comments

I added the detail about the modern day Purcell Club - though it may go under the name Gentleman of the Purcell Club. It does exist, but since they are based on old traditions they may not have found out about the Internet yet, though they do have CDs! It's well worth tracking them down, and going on one of their tours of Westminster Abbey - which are relatively few in number, and you may have to wait several years to get a place. David Martland 08:53 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

The article says about Purcell's father a gentleman of the chapel-royal - but what does this chapel-royal mean? / Habj 23:47, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

See Chapel Royal. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:56, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

I did see that article before I asked. You see, I am trying to translate this article to Swedish - and how to translate this Chapel Royal, used several times in the text, is beyond me. "A group of musicians and priests that took care of the church survices at the royal court" might be somewhat adequate, but... / Habj 02:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Chapel Royal is a proper name, so you'd probably keep that in the Swedish version, with an explanation like "the King's official religious choir". -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 08:46, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

If the choir is the most important part of the Chapel in context, then that addition sounds great. Thanks. / Habj 01:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

If I understand the timelines correctly, at that time the choir was all there was. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:06, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

The music is of the most genial character does sound a bit POV. It must be possible to tell that his music is/was praised without this kind of loaded words. / Habj 01:00, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

That's undoubtedly a rather flowery artifact of the original 1911 Britanica text. They weren't big fans of NPOV writing back then. That whole sentence needs serious work. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:06, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to address the importance of Dido and Aeneas without being too POV. At the time of the 1911 Brit. it was about the only Baroque opera being done in the English speaking world.Makemi 07:11, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Do we want to include the Pelham Humfrey Lully reference? New Grove says of Humfrey "His travels and activities abroad are undocumented, but it is possible that, as Boyce asserted a century later, he became a pupil of Lully," It seems unecessary to include something so questionable and tangential, but feel free to replace it if you feel it's solid and pertinent.Makemi 07:11, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

There seems to be no consensus on how to pronounce the name Purcell. Even on BBC Radio 3, the presenters come up with three distinct versions, those who emphasize the first syllable (as your article takes pains to promote,) those who emphasize the last syllable, and those who give equal weight to both. The name appears to be French in origin (or etymology) in which case, pur-CELL would be the preferred pronunciation. User:Michael MacClelland 17 March 2006

You are correct that there is no officially correct way to pronounce the name (that I can find) and people do it differently. Every prof. musician I've worked with (English and American alike) has pronounced it [pʌr' səl]. I think the French argument is somewhat spurious, however, since the English are notorious for pronouncing French words completely differently from the French pronunciation (ever seen the Monty Python about the Blancmange?), and Purcell was clearly a born and bred Brit. I've removed the whole thing in any case, since I don't think it's particularly useful, and it can't be really verified. Makemi 20:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

"the English are notorious for pronouncing French words completely differently from the French pronunciation" ahaha, unlike the Americans of course. Prem-ear for premier, sa-lon for salon (equal stress on syllables), and the worst of all, moo-lon for moulin. My teeth were gritted every time that wretched Baz Lurhmann film was out - the American mispronunication was painful to hear in all the promotions. At least the Brits got it right. Moulin as rhymed with (hic) 'vin'.81.156.126.150 (talk) 14:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I've cited two pronunciation dictionaries (one British, one American) in favor of the "rhymes-with-rehearsal" pronunciation. Angr (talk • contribs) 18:35, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I love that whoever did the audio version of this article took so much notice of your carefully-sited IPA pronunciation. :P Oh well. Mak (talk) 02:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

In about 1970 I heard the musician Dr A.E. Floyd say in a radio broadcast that the pronunciation had equal weight on the two syllables. His authority was his music teacher who had been a pupil of S.S. Wesley. See http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A080553b.htm RayJohnstone (talk) 05:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

We know exactly how to pronounce Purcell's name. The accent is on the first syllable. The proof for this can be found in the Funeral Ode his friend and mentor John Blow wrote for him, to words by the poet laureate John Dryden, who also knew Purcell well. Purcell wrote music for many plays, which had rhyming prologues and epilogues. His name is rhymed with the word rehearsal. See e.g. Pierre Danchin's The Prologues and Epilogues of the Restoration 1660-1700, University of Nancy, 1981. Frans M (talk) 11:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

My mistake. I was mis-hearing the word which as you say rhymes with "rehearsal". RayJohnstone (talk) 07:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

funeral music for queen mary

This is the song to A Clockwork Orange, I think... is it by Purcell? What is the actual name of the piece? I can't find it on his list of pieces in Wikipedia.--Sonjaaa 01:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

According to Grove, "Purcell provided some of the music for Queen Mary's state funeral on 5 March 1695" (as did John Blow). I'm not sure what the specific pieces were, although I do have a recording with that name, which includes pieces such as "Come ye sons of art", "Sound the trumpet", "Strike the viol", but I think those are all also part of larger works. Grove doesn't give anything specific on what was included. If you remember anything more about the piece I might be able to guess which song it actually was. Mak (talk) 02:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I found it now, it was the March and Canzona z860 for four "flat" trumpets, and Thou knowest, Lord z58c, which is an old chestnut. Mak (talk) 02:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool thanks!!--Sonjaaa 15:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Date of birth

I wonder, does anyone know why this page suggests Purcell was on September 10th? As far as I know it is not even for sure whether he was born in 1659 (although this year is commonly assumed to be his year of birth), but is there any reference that Sep 10th was the date? I think it would be better to state that it is unknown than simply mention a debatable date. Pieterdijk 13:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

According to Peter Holman (New Grove), Purcell was appointed to the post of composer for the violins at the court, replacing Locke, on September 10, 1677: something which would be expected on his 18th birthday, (according to that article). 1659 is established by the age-at-death on his memorial tablet in Westminster Abbey. In addition, there's a cryptic note on the flyleaf of one of his anthems implying that September 10 was his birthday. Grove gives "?10 September 1659" in their entry on Purcell. Probably we should indicate uncertainty, as they do. Antandrus (talk) 15:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for expressing uncertainty when it exists. Mak (talk) 18:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses, these are useful additions! Pieterdijk 19:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

(this does not say where he was born)

It does, in the first sentence of "early life". He was born in Westminster, London. Mak (talk) 15:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Parentage

Another controversy about Purcell not mentioned in the article is that his parentage is not a matter of agreement; E. J. Westrup in his book on Purcell was of the opinion that his father was not Henry Senior but his brother Thomas. This was based on the fact that Thomas in a well-known letter refers to the composer as his son. Previous biographers presumably assumed that Thomas had effectively adopted Henry, but Westrup had not seen any evidence that this was the case. He also pointed out that when Henry Senior's widow died, her estate was administered by his daughter, and asked why this would occur if he had more than one son extant at the time. I'd be interested to know if any subsequent research has thrown more light on this. (Of the sources I've consulted, some state definitely that the father was Henry Senior, some say the matter is in doubt and some don't mention the issue at all; Michael Kennedy, in his Oxford Guide to Classical Music, states that it was Thomas, and is the only reference I've seen that does so.) Jon Rob 14:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I was glad??

Why is "I was glad" on the page? I thought it was by Parry, not Purcell!

Just checking before I delete it incase Purcell wrote it and Parry developed it or something. I'm not an expert on Purcell, but I thought this was odd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehm1883 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Purvell wrote one as well, the anthem has been part of the Coronation service for a very long time. Score here at ChoralWiki. David Underdown 18:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Claims about Dido and Aeneas are a bit far-fetched (domestic popularity etc). The earliest complete source for the opera that survives dates from the mid-18th century, and even there it is clear it does not survive in its original form. This is pretty widespread knowledge - see latest Grove article etc.

Oowelly82 (talk) 22:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, Purcell's incidental music for Abdelazar and Timon of Athens dates from 1695 (for later productions of the plays) - see Holman etc, and it is widely known that Purcell did NOT write music for The Tempest - see Margaret Laurie, 'Did Purcell set the Tempest?', Proceedings of the Royal Musical Association, 90th Sess. (1963), pp. 43-57

Oowelly82 (talk) 22:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Sang at Charles II's Coronation

This took place on 23 April 1661. Purcell would have been only 19 months old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.130.247 (talk) 03:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

This refers to Henry Purcell Senior. --Kleinzach 03:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. It's stated in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica that his father sang at the coronation. While the New Grove does not state the same thing directly, you can infer it from his being Master of the Choristers at Westminster Abbey at the time of the coronation. See their short article on Henry's father. Antandrus (talk) 03:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class; its main factual problem is that there is no discussion of what sets his music apart from other period composers. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 21:20, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

"England, My England: The Story of Henry Purcell"

Film biography directed by Tony Palmer, screen play by John Osborne and Charles Wood, with Simon Callow as Charles II and Michael Ball as Henry Purcell. Copyright 1995 Channel Four Television Corporation and NYC ARTS, a Warner Music Group company. DVD graphics and packaging artwork : copyright 2007 WEA Internatiional Inc., a Warner Music Group company. Running time 152 minutes. Color. ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.200.233 (talk) 03:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Birthdate

Is the birth date given in the article, i.e September 10, 1959 the Julian Calendar date or the Gregorian Calendar Date? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.149.72.202 (talk) 21:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

UK (strictly Great Britain and Ireland) didn't switch to the Gregorian calendar until 1752, so almost certainly Julian, it is usual to give the dates in the system used by the country at the time someitmes with England correcting for the additional problem that the new year officially began on 25 March, rather than 1 January). David Underdown (talk) 08:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Henry Purcell/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Henry Purcell: 2009-01-18== This is an assessment of article Henry Purcell by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Critical and historical reception; nothing on how his music is distinctive from other Baroque. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Some images, more would be better. Sound gallery. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; few inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short; media gallery needs reformatting. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) ===Summary=== This is a decent composer article. Its main factual lack is a discussion of his musical style -- especially what sets it apart from other period composers. This is specifically mentioned in the (too-short) lead; the body does not deliver. Its other defects are structural -- it could use more images, it should have inline citations for the material, its lead needs to be expanded. Article is B-class. Magic♪piano 21:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 21:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)