Talk:History of navigation

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 June 2019 and 31 July 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Josiah.minner.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Split from Navigation[edit]

This page was split from Navigation. Haus^Talk 14:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the topic of navigation, there is mention of Henry's foundation of an observatory and school of navigation. However, there is argument on this topic amongst historians. Joaquinn Pedro Oliveira Martins, in his book The Golden Age of Prince Henry the Navigator asserts that the observatory and school were well developed. On the other hand, Francisco Bethencourt in Portuguese Oceanic Expansion, 1400-1800 says that the evidence to support the school of navigation is evasive at best and, at the most, it was a basic gathering of individuals invited to Sagres by Henry.--Casini1 (talk) 18:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Norwood/Robert Norman[edit]

The Age of Dicovery last para.

Richard Norwood measured the length of a nautical mile with chains.[10] His definition of 2040 yeards is fairly close to the modern International System of Units (SI) definition of 2025.372 yards. Norwood is also credited with the discovery of magnetic dip 59 years earlier, in 1576.[10]

But in Robert Norman

Robert Norman was a 16th century British mariner, compass builder, and hydrographer.

He is noted for his London publication in 1581 of The Newe Attractive, a pamphlet discussing the lodestone or magnet, as well as practical aspects of navigation. More importantly it included his discovery of the "magnetic dip", which caused the needle of a compass to incline at an angle from the horizon. This was caused by the magnetic field of the Earth not running parallel to the surface. 81.155.186.149 15:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not 100% sure what the concern is... A 1576 discovery versus a 1581 publication? Haus^Talk 01:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I see now. Was it Richard Norwood or Robert Norman? I double-checked Britannica and it does indeed credit "Richard Norwood" with the discovery of magnetic dip. I'm all for changing it if we can find a reasonable citation. Cheers. Haus^Talk 14:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Precession not Wobble Changes Apparent Star Position[edit]

I'm very certain that in the except copied from the article below the implication that star constellations change position as a result of "wobble" is very wrong.

This change in the position of the stars is due to the wobble of the Earth on its axis which affects primarily the pole stars. Around 1000 BC the constellation Draco would have been closer to the North Pole than Polaris. The pole stars were used to navigate because they did not disappear below the horizon and could be seen consistently throughout the night.

Rather, a phenomenon called "precession" , ^[1] over thousands of years, changes the apparent position of the constellations. It is also not accurate to say that it affects primarily the pole star as all stars change their apparent position. I'll be glad to fix it if there's no objection. --130.76.96.149 (talk) 00:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC).[reply]

References

^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_precession

Mediterranean[edit]

"Hugging the coast" is not only impractical and unnecessary but ruled out by sea mists and darkness. An unlit shoreline is extremely difficult to see on a dark night. For many vessels it would seem that there was no need for a harbour, in an essentially tide free Sea, for you simply haul the boat out onto the beach, with or without ballast as you felt necessary. Tarragona did not have a fishing harbour until the middle of the 20th Century and (I am told) the first evidence of harbour works was in the 11th Centry AD when the stones of the ruined Roman city were used as a breakwater, the earlier sailing skills having all been lost during the dark ages.

Does "crash" mean "founder" or is the author simply suggesting that ancient boats frequently ran into the rocks? What is the hard evidence for this in the same way as they are known to have been lost at sea, possibly through naval action, overloading, or simply going rotten?

The seas in the Mediterranean tend to be short, choppy and unpleasant. There are frequent swells, sometimes clearly coming from two directions at the smae time. There are winds, such as the Tramontana and Mistral which are spectacularly unpleasant, especially in the Golf du Lyon and the Baei of Rosas, but dangerous on a relative scale?

Drg40 (talk) 17:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Greece[edit]

The circumpolar stars were known to the ancient Egyptians as the "eternals" and this knowledge was very much earlier than 300BC.

In Marseille it is recorded that the city was captured by the Greeks in 660BC as a result of their desire to control the river traffic from the UK and Northern France and hence the raw materials for bronze - or perhaps the finished product. This trade therefore was in full swing before 660BC, and Pytheas would not need to step onto a ship to hear tales of life in Britain from hundreds of years of collective experience.

I suggest a look at the maps. If the boats were at risk in the "dangerous" storms in the Mediterranean, they sure as whatsit weren't going up the west coast of Portugal. So Pytheas simply didn't perform the voyage as described. Bit like Columbus, really. However, it would be possible to get to Brittany and Britain by taking ship in A Corunna and sailing from there, which would begin to put logic and scale into any precursor of the Tower of Hercules. And that would also explain why A Corunna is called the gateway to the Mediterranean.

Presumably up the Rhone and Saone and off perhaps to the Marne and the Seine as a river passage posed problems of it own, not least because any exit from the river system along the N coast of France, Holland, Belgium etc would lead to a passage down the English Channel, skirting little problems like the Alderney race. Now that IS dangerous. So going N and slightly W from A Corunna, and round Cap Gris Nez one could avoid one or two really nasty experiences.

Of course, you could do what is advised today for the safe passage of small craft from Cadiz to (say) Plymouth or Brest and go out to the Azores, but then you'd be so much closer to America that you might have a bad day and fall over it, so we shouldn't take that any further or we might think the unthinkable.

Drg40 (talk) 17:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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WP:ERA[edit]

Per this edit, the usage of the page was established as BC/AD. Kindly maintain it consistently. — $Llywelyn II$ 15:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Latin sails in Mediterranean[edit]

The article says in "Medieval age of navigation" that muslim sailors brought the latin sail to the Mediterranean. The article on Latin sail, however, traces the typ back to Roman days thus Mediterranean and pre-Muslim area. Kipala (talk) 15:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Americas?[edit]

It seems like a section is missing on the development of seafaring in the Americas. Presumably, the peoples of the Caribbean Islands would have needed seafaring skills to populate the islands. Unless this is really restricted to navigation out of sight of land. But even in this case, I think it would be worth pointing out what's known and what's conjectured of the capabilities and limitations of indigenous American seafaring capabilities, prior to contact with Europe. Acjohnson55 (talk) 20:25, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This relates to the surprising lack of any mention of early Norse transatlantic navigation to Iceland, Greenland and the northeast coast of North America ca. the 10th century. Kiwehtin (talk) 18:17, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion of seafaring capabilities in the Americas would naturally begin with the current widespread hypothesis of a "kelp highway" followed by early migrants from northeastern Asia near the end of the last glacial maximum. It would also be pertinent to include references to navigation over the Great Lakes in North America, the use of sails on inland canoes, and the use of boats for whaling among Algonquian-speaking peoples of the North Atlantic coast. Kiwehtin (talk) 18:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would be interested to hear your sources for any of the above. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:04, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]