Talk:History of the Jews in Germany/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Germans of Jewish belief or Jewish race/people?

In Germany, we consider it as racism to speak of the "Jewish People" or the "Jewish race"! There have even been court verdicts to this topic. We in Germany consider ALL Germans as "GERMAN" -- no matter if they are Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Islamic, Atheist, Agnostic, Heathens or just perculiar people who worship their television set on a daily basis.

Please do not mistake religion for race, that is what racists do ... In Germany, the "Jews" (Zentralrat der Juden) take every chance to pronounce "we are Germans of Jewish belief"!

By the way: there is a Zionist and a anti-Zionist movement, both causes are legitimate and within democratic rules of free speech. Anti-Zionist does not mean anti-Jew -- this must be understood. Just because one is against the American occupation of Irak does not make one "anti-American", for example ...

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.140.89.73 (talk) 18:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

There is no debate whatsoever that being Jewish is a matter of ethnicity as well as religion, nor do reliable sources say anything otherwise. The only people saying it's not an ethnicity are the ones pushing whichever agenda of the day. Mad Jack 18:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


Oh yes, there is a debate -- at least within groups of scholars, also those of Jewish belief:

"(...) A dictionary will tell you that a "race" in this context is a variety of the human species characterized by various physical features such as skin color, hair color and texture, body shape and size, eye color, and so on. Anthropologists have divided human beings into several races, such as the Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, African pygmy, and American Indian. Race is a genetic classification; one is born into a race and is of a certain race or mixed race because of one's ancestors. One can covert into a religion, but one cannot change one's race.
Jews are therefore not a race. Jews are members of a religion, Judaism. There was at one time a Hebrew nation that was an ethnic group, but since ancient times the scattering of Jews throughout the world and intermarriage and conversions have made the Hebrew origin less a genetic and more a spiritual tie. There is also a culture tied to the religion and its laws regarding diet, the Sabbath, and various rituals, along with cultural practices picked up in various locations that are "Jewish" by coincidence. But there is no "Jewish race."
For centuries in Europe, Jews were persecuted on religious pretexts, often because they refused to convert to Christianity. The modern concept of Jews as a race came from the propaganda of the National Socialists of Germany, the Nazis. Their racist ideology classified not just the races but also ethnic groups and nationalities into levels of inferiority. The Nazis treated Jews as a race, basing their persecution not on religion but on origin. A Christian with a Jewish parent was considered a Jew, to be sent to the concentration camps. (...)"[1]
"Dear Ben, Thanks for writing.
It's relatively simple. Judaism is the faith or religion that Jews observe. Its ethnic character is multi-faceted, for Jews come from a variety of ethnic histories but the same religious heritage of beliefs, values, laws, customs, literature and history.
Hebrew is a language, and only in pre-Second Temple times, and perhaps only in pre-First Temple times did the term "Hebrew" refer to those who believed in a monotheistic God as do we today. Obviously Judaism has evolved considerably in the 3000 years since then, and ethnically reflects the cultures into which they were forced to migrate by multiple conquests of their own nation, referred to by Roman as Judea.
I hope that this helps. Check out the Encyclopedia Judaica in your library for further entries and facts, and if you have additional specific questions, don't hesitate to write.
Rabbi Dov" (Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner)[2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.140.82.198 (talk) 19:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC).


Again, there is no debate per se. The Wiki article on Jew treats it as an ethnic group, and it is. See this article on Jewish DNA and the like. Aside from that, it's inherently hypocritical to begin an article on German Jews as "Germans of Jewish belief", especially since Germany killing most of its Jews specifically because of their ethnicity is such a large part of German Jewish history. Furthermore, you have no reliable sources that define "German Jews" as "Germans of Jewish belief". In fact, the phrase "Germans of Jewish belief" has exactly 3 Google matches,[3] one of which does not work, the other of which is a blog, and the third is one that specifies "Germans of Jewish belief or heritage". Thus you cannot define the term "German Jews" with that definition on Wikipedia. Mad Jack 20:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


The answer is that Jews are a religion and a civilization, but not a race or singular ethnic group (the latter two definitions marginalize proselytes). As Rabbi Rami Shapiro said: "There is only one response to Who is a Jew? that works: A Jew is one who takes Judaism seriously. One who takes Judaism seriously studies it, argues with it, and lives it."
The fact is that what you say is simply not factually accurate and indeed, all Wikipedia articles reflect that, from Jew to Jewish ethnic divisions. 04:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Concentration Camps

The sentence "some of which were sent to the newly formed concentration camps" about the first deportations of Jews implies to me that KZs were firstly formed from around 1939 for Jewish people - in fact, other groups that were persecuted by the Nazis, most importantly socialists and other political opponents, were imprisioned in concentration camps from as early as 1933; conditions were rapidly changing after 1939, but the above phrasing sounds inappropriate to me. Alternative suggestions, please? --131.111.8.97 10:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Who is Jewish?, post-1945

I could find no firm evidence that Bundesbank chairman Helmut Schlesinger is Jewish, even though his surname is often associated with Jews. Some websites claim that Hugo Egon Balder is Jewish, but they strike me as dubious. Balder is not known to be involved in the Jewish community (the way Rosenthal was, for example), and I found no incontrovertible evidence of Balder's Jewishness. Inge Meysel had a Jewish father but a Christian mother, which does not make her Jewish by the Jewish definition. Poldy Bloom 19:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Hugo Egon Balder has repeatedly confirmed on German television that his mother, Gerda Leyserson, was Jewish (she survived the Theresienstadt concentration camp). This has also been confirmed in dozens of German newspaper articles and reports. http://www.welt.de/print-welt/article329893/Mutters_Geheimnis.html Nellov5 04:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio?

Parts of this smack of plagiarism e.g.

"They enjoyed full civic liberty, being restricted only in regard to the dissemination of their faith, the keeping of Christian slaves, and the holding of office under the government. But they were otherwise free to follow any occupation open to their fellow citizens. They were engaged in agriculture, trade, and industry, and only gradually took up money-lending. These conditions at first continued in the subsequently established Germanic kingdoms under the Burgundians and Franks, for ecclesiasticism took root here but slowly, and the Jews lived as peaceably with their new German lords as they had done formerly with the Roman provincials. The Merovingian rulers, also, who succeeded to the Burgundian empire, were devoid of fanaticism, and gave scant support to the efforts of the Church to restrict the civic and social status of the Jews." SlimVirgin (talk) 08:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Not a copyvio, instead much of the early history is verbatim from the public domain Jewish Encyclopedia which, being written in 1906, is a bit fussy on the language side. It serves as a good base, but needs more copyediting. --Goodoldpolonius2 14:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The Jewish Virtual Library and the articles 'number of jews by country' both go by the 105.000 jews in Germany today. Why would you use the 'probably' figure? It also looks like it's not the third biggest community in Europe, but the fifth biggest in case you consider Russia as European. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html#top European ranking would be: Russia - France - United Kingdom - Ukraine - Germany.

Number of jews in Germany

The Jewish Virtual Library and the articles 'number of jews by country' both go by the 105.000 jews in Germany today. Why would you use the 'probably' figure? It also looks like it's not the third biggest community in Europe, but the fifth biggest in case you consider Russia as European. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html#top European ranking would be: Russia - France - United Kingdom - Ukraine - Germany.

I added a source for the real number of Jews that live in Germany, and I reverted the text. | November 2, 2006

Someone wrote that there were more than 200,000 Jews officially registered in today's Germany. I don't know where he/she got that figure. The official figure is closer to 110,000. There may be more Jews in Germany, but they are not registered with the Jewish communities and do not count in the "official" totals. I made the correction in the article. Poldy Bloom 19:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

"German Jews" article

German Jews are one of the largest Jews communities and its worth establishing an article NEXT TO the history article!

Now that there is this article on contemporary Jews Culture, I wonder if the History article's shouldnt close with a common statement on culture or history but a population number.

The "History of Jews" articles discuss ancient and modern history, including present day. I've argued they should be renamed to "Jews in Germany" etc., but that's another issue. Jayjg (talk) 08:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

An article called "history" is in-adequate to describe a present day situation. The argument for articles to fall in line with the arrangement of articles isnt convincing either cause there are already a number of articles as "xy Jews" or "Jews in xy".
I'd support moving this to Jews in Germany, and the same with the other History of the Jews in xxx. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well re-naming all the other: thats a big thing - cant tell. For contemporary Germany: German Jews is logical to me as it is the same for American Jews, African Jews etc. but before this whole issue gets forgotten I d rather agree with Jews in Germany.

Actually I d support that too: history is quite restrictive as it referes to everything from a sort of historical perspective. - as opposed to Jews in xy which is a lot more inclusive and open to life in general. Still I m not sure about identities.

Considering the very word, "Ashkenaz", which defines all German and Eastern European Jews, is the Hebrew term for "Germany" makes "German Jews" unique in this series. Surely the "Zentralrat for Juden in Deutschland" is calling it "Jews in Germany" but that was in 1950. Also a google search comes up with twice as many results for "German Jews" as for "Jews in Germany". The same is true if you search for sites updated (or created) in the past year. And, this number is the second highest number worldwide (only "American Jews" comes up with more results!).
One should also consider that almost all Jews newly immigrating to Germany, do so as recognized "German citizens" and not just any group of "foreigners". And: most of them are said intend to become part of a wider "German society" with a substantial Jewish history. How do "German Jews" / "Jews in Germany" feel about this? I d really like to see an article established like this - please comment.

Did some research and get clearer for the title "German Jews": key is the identification and heritage within a set environment. The very fact that (for centuries until 1933) "German Jews" were an INTEGRAL part of Germany, made them accelerate in so many areas. This has been unique in Jews history and after 1933 only "American Jews" took over this prominent heritage (directly inherited from emigrated "German Jews") German Jews in New York. I think a) Modern Germany wants to see Jewish life in Germany flourish. b) Building on their own (once wasted) potential and the "American example", a more integrated German Jewish community is more natural to an enlightened German society. d) The new Jewish community in Germany takes large benefit in re-establishing the German-Jewish identity. March 2006

Spelling mistake

On the see also section, shouldnt it say Jews and their lives rather than Jews and their lies? Dracion 17:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


scrubbing streets picture

Jews under the nazis: The picture shows only the half truth. It suggests that jewish people had to scub several streets for nothing and thats not right. Before "The Anschluss" austrain federal chancellor Kurt Schuschnigg ordered to paint the streets with paroles like 'Austria will never give up' and 'Sovereignty'. After the germans arrived, they took rich jewish inhabitants from the streets and forced them to remove this, as degradation. This was one of the reasons why the Wien residents has not organized resistance. However, they appreciated this. History should be hold clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.83.109.202 (talk • contribs)

Anon, unless you are trying to justify the policy of forcing "rich jewish inhabitants" to scrub the streets, I don't see your point. Exatly which streets and what from those streets they were forced to scrub, seems irrelevant to me. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, i dont need to justify anyone. It is even a historical fact. Of course there where humans exploited to divide an overthrown city by a successor. Its also not needed to say which street they used, but why that worked should made clear. Otherwise it is likewise propaganda. --217.83.109.202 21:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
You don't get it. They did not choose some random citizens for this degradation. What is important is they singled out the Jews. Exactly what those Jews were cleaning (the streets could be sterile clean) doesn't matter. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Noop, not every jew on street where singled out, just as I wrote. On this days Wieners where not ethnical divided but rather by function. They took other representatives of state as well. Its a modern tale that jews where the unique victims.--217.83.109.202 22:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
"not every jew" - what's your point? Is that supposed to somehow justify the Nazi perpetrators? How did those Jews deserve it?
If "representatives of state" really were there scrubbing the street next to the Jews (proof please), maybe they represented their past powers and their past decisions. Please explain what was the "function" of the Jews to deserve such treatment. Also, I don't understand how are those representatives related to the subject. Nazis also persecuted gays, mental patients, dissidents, etc. Should we mention all of this in the caption of a photo showing Viennese Jews scrubbing the street? ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, parts of Schuschniggs cabinet where forced to do this as well. The fact that no one protested was fear on one hand (armed force in the city). Otherwise it shows how far away from normal people some parts of community lived. The chancellor, his cabinet and the jews of the financial district where not really beloved ones this time. -- Why should we complicate the stuff? Can you agree zu underline the photo with "Nazis in Vienna, Austria 1938 mock mostly Jewish men forced to scrub away watchwords of resistance from overthrowed Schuschnig-Administration from streets ? I think that would made it clear enough.--141.76.45.35 07:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Unless you imply that Jews deserved such himiliation, all that is irrelevant. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The way you disrespect and blame me with your quotung marks, word orders etc. just unmask yourself

Jewish population in Germany

According to a several news reports and other sources, such as Wikipedia itself, the Jewish population presently is over 200.000. After 1990 about 170.000 Jews emigrated to Germany from Eastern Europe and 30-40.000 already lived in Germany. Sundar1 21:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The U.S. Department of State had the following to say in its International Religious Freedom Report 2005: "Under a liberal immigration policy, more than 199,000 Jews and their dependents from the former Soviet Union (FSU) have come to the country since 1990, with smaller numbers arriving from other countries as well. Not all new arrivals join congregations, resulting in the discrepancy between population and congregation membership". Nellov5 21:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The Zentralrat der Juden in Deutschland does provide some population figures on its website, and it doesn't get much more official than that. The Zentralrat states, "Seit 1989 sind 190 000 Menschen als so genannte jüdische Kontingentflüchtlinge nach Deutschland gekommen. 80 000 von ihnen konnten in die jüdischen Gemeinden Deutschlands integriert werden." So, fewer than half of the new arrivals are part of the Jewish community, and many of the "so genannte jüdische Kontingentflüchtlinge" were not actually Jewish. So, we need to be wary of using the figure 190,000 plus 40,000 as the basis of tallying the population. According to the Zentralrat, "Die Jüdischen Gemeinden in Deutschland haben heute 104.000 Mitglieder." I have edited the article to distinguish between total Jewish population and affiliated population. Poldy Bloom 05:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

At the present time, the article reads, "Today over 200,000 [1] Jews live in Germany..." Footnote 1 references the Federal Statistical Office Germany <http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/bevoe/bevoetab5.htm>. But that website does *not* indicate a population over 200,000. That website reports only 108,000. So, the source does not confirm the information provided, and I will move the reference to a place where it seems more appropriate. Poldy Bloom 05:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, you didn't provide proof for your claim that "many of the so genannte jüdische Kontingentflüchtlinge were not actually Jewish" either. The Federal Statistical Office clearly states in their chart that the figures are for religious affiliation only. The article by the "Zentralrat der Juden" is indeed important, but it is in German and needs to be translated into English before a link should be posted. The discrepancy between total Jewish population and congregation membership is certainly worth mentioning, but not repeatedly within the same article. I have therefore reverted the changes at the beginning of the article. Nellov5 16:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added the link to the English-language version of the ZDJID article that was previously in German. Nellov5 18:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

I would be happy to explain why I wrote that many of the socalled contingency Jewish refugees were not actually Jewish. In the former Soviet Union, "Judaism" was considered a nationality and not a religion. As a result, it could be passed down patrilineally. Jews consider "Jewishness" to be passed down exclusively matrilineally. Therefore, many of the people considered Jewish by the communist Soviet authorities are/were not considered Jews by the Jewish community itself. A report from the European Jewish Press service states, "Jewish law . . . prescribes that a Jew is a person born of a Jewish mother. German immigration policy, however, has also let the offspring of Jewish fathers into Germany as contingency-refugees." That is why I wrote what I did. I realize that many individuals and groups have regarded "Jewishness" as handed down from either side of the family, but that is not how traditionally observant Jews historically have defined it. (In recent years some Reform Jewish groups have adopted the partilineal rule, as well, but that remains a minority view within the Jewish world.) Incidentally, Israel's Law of Return also allows for right of residence and citizenship for the "non-Jewish" spouses and children of halahkic Jews. This allows them to enter Israel under the same circumstances as Jews, but it does not count them as "Jewish." Poldy Bloom 21:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking more about the issue of repeating the discrepancy between the number of individuals who may be Jewish and the official number of Jews who are registered with the community (which is no indication of actual religiosity in Germany). I think that having the information as it is now is a good idea. In the introduction, it makes a general statement ("slightly more than half"). Many people will not read much of this rather long article, so it is good to mention the discrepancy up front. On the other hand, in the detailed sub-section on post-1990 German Jewry, it is interesting and worthwhile to have more precise figures, as well as the source. Poldy Bloom 20:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I find the repeated information about the discrepancy redundant and don't even think it's relevant enough, particularly in the introduction to this article. I can't find anyone making a distinction between the affiliated and non-affiliated Jewish population on any other Wikipedia page dealing with the Jewish history of their country. The following is from the introduction of "The History of Jews in France" (the article on British Jews has a similar statement in its introduction): "French Jews are mostly Sephardic and span a range of religious affiliations, from the ultra-Orthodox Haredi communities to the large segment of Jews who are entirely secular." We are not told how many of these belong to a synagogue and how many are secular. There are other pages on Wikipedia that define what Judaism and who a Jew is - this is not the right place to do that. The immigration policy adopted by the German government was in accordance with the principles of American Reform Judaism which accepts a child of one Jewish parent (mother or father) as a Jew (see the ZDJID's homepage for more information about the immigration rules for immigrants from the former USSR). And since you only seem to consider those belonging to an orthodox or conservative community as officially "affiliated", you completely ignore the 3000 members of liberal or reformed communities (represented by the Union of Progressive Jews in Germany) that bring the total of "affiliated" Jews up to 107,000 - which is much closer to the official figure of 108,000 provided by the Federal Bureau of Statistics. I have therefore removed the redundant information from the introduction, as well as updated the figure of registered members, plus added one more link to the "post-reunification" section. Nellov5 00:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

If you add 3000 to 4000 progressive Jews to the 104,000 who belong to traditional Jewish communities, you still don’t get over 200,000. In a spirit of compromise, I would suggest that we use the English translation of the German phrase “jüdischer Herkunft”. Perhaps that most accurately describes the situation of the contingency refugees. Poldy Bloom 17:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The corrected figure of 108,000 reflects only the number of those with a religious affiliation, and of course NOT the total Jewish population. The figure of 190,000 Jewish quota refugees emigrating to Germany has been confirmed in dozens of articles/reports by important organizations, from the Central Council of Jews in Germany to the Deutsche Welle http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1438392,00.html to the embassy websites of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/publications/infocus/JewishLife/generalfigures.htm (giving a figure of 170,000 in 2003) to the U.S. Department of State (see quote above from their report). Add to that the 30,000 Jews already living in Germany at the time of German reunification and you get at least 200,000. How much more confirmation do you need? However, I agree with your suggestion of using the expression "Jews or persons of Jewish descent". So let's leave it at that. I corrected the sentence about Germany having Europe's third-largest Jewish population to "Western Europe's third-largest J. population" - which is what has been stated in the country article about Germany as well. Nellov5 02:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


Russian Jewish immigrants "seeking renewed contact with their Jewish heritage"

The influx of refugees, many of them seeking renewed contact with their Jewish heritage, has led to a renaissance of Jewish life on German soil.

Although this sounds very nice, this is just wishfull-thinking and a lack of knowlegde of the reallity of the russian-jewish german immigration.

To further explain my point, I'll use a bit from the Germany Talk page:

..., that during the last years more Jews prefered emigrating to Germany than to Israel as they, usually Ashkenazies, feel much closer to Germany and the German language (Yiddish is a Germanic language) than to Israel. The Hebrew language is too much different from Yiddish and Israel is a Mideast nation in a conflictive area, so an increasing number of Ashkenazies prefer emigrating to Germany where they feel more integrated


These kind of comments and insights are simply not true, are totally away from reality and show a profound lack of knowledge of current german/jewish life.

Good and reputable sources on this matter are abundant. I would suggest that you first start by readind the "Juedische Allgemeine" Germany's (internationally aclaimed) leading daily newspapers devoted to the jewish community. You'll find there lots of insights, analysis, studies, newsreports, and this will help you a lot to understand the reality of the Russian-Jewish post 90's emigration to Germany. Furthermore the german government policies, decisions and the impacto on german society have also been thouroughly described, analysed and commentated on the main media press (Spiegel, etc) easly.


more Jews prefered emigrating to Germany than to Israel or feel much closer to Germany

The reason number one for this preference is the exceptionally conditions (read money) that this german post-berlin-wall policy entitles them to. (much to the critic of the Israeli Governement)

Most of Russian who came, would never have left the ex Soviet Union, if it wasnt for this special german policy and the catastrophic collapse of pensions and social security in Russia. Not to Israel, not to anywhere. So it is incorrect to say "preferred". They just grabbed the opportunity. They neither feel closer to Germany nor to Israel. They feel and will continue to feel close to Russia, were they have already spent 2 thirds of their lives.


Israel is a Mideast nation in a conflictive area

Most of the young, connected to Judaism, educated Russian Jews, have indeed by enlarge emigrated to Israel, Canada or the US. This started happening in the 1970s and peaked in the 90s


feel much closer to... German language (Yiddish is a Germanic language) again this is nonsense, as the vast majority of these people have never spoke yiddish. They spoke Russian and are connected to the russian culture.



" ...a renaissance of Jewish life on German soil " and Chabad Lubavitch

... Chabad-Lubavitch ..opened this ...Chabad-Lubavitch ... ordained .that.. this and that

Chabad-Lubavitch opens and ordains all over the world. From Beijing to Antartica. And indeed more and more in the recent years. What I simply cannot understand is how come a minority (and extremly active) stream in modern Judaism can be representative of the ".a renaissance of Jewish life on German soil".


The issue of the "renaissance" with integration and participation of the "russian jews" in the german jewish community, their clashes and success stories is a well documented (and problematic one). Again, read the german (jewish and non jewish ) newspapers.

In their vast majority they were already above 50 when they arrived in Germany, and I would not say that their connection with judaism was/is "that big". Actually because many of them are from mixed marriages, their offspring in Germany, no longer considers itself or has interest in their "jewishness". The cornerstone of they identity is Russia, not Judaism. Again, read the german sources.


Jews in WWI

It should be mentioned that many Jews fought for Germany in World War I. This actually improved their reputation among the people. Even the Nazis - initially - made exceptions for Jewish front fighters, which certainly says nothing about the regime itself, but shows that the latter feared to raise indignation.

"improved their reputation among the people"--what's that supposed to mean? (I assume you mean "Gentiles", not "people.") Besides, it's not true: the Reichsverband juedischer Frontsoldaten (RJF), a Jewish veterans' organization, was founded precisely to combat the anti-semitic treason libels that circulated after Germany lost the war. These libels were collectively known as the "Dolchstoss-Legende"--the stab-in-the-back legend.

As for the Nazis' fear of raising indignation, that's a truly complex topic. RogerLustig (talk) 04:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Disapointing article

The prosecution of jews are certainly a big bart of German history. However, this segment appear to be only about that, and very litle if anything about the dynamics of the jewish people, how they evolved during the centuries and their integrated part in the greater society. Nothing about the rich jewish culture and traditions. No doubt the history of jews in Germany are linked to holocaust and other progroms, but it appears to me holocaust overshadows other parts in the historical context. Basically, this article give no information about the peculiarities that kinda defines jews origin from that region and what the difference are from say jews who lived France. Thx, i hope i didnt offend anyone, but its hard for me to believe that an article about a 1000 year old culture, should be 90 % about the prosecutions. Maybe 90 % for the last century is ok, but not for its whole history. My guess is that in the early middle ages, black death, war, hunger and diseases were just as big part of the negatives in german jewish history as progroms was.

history buff

Agreed. While the authors of this article do much to vilify Germany, one can only wonder: Why did Jews live in Germany for 1,000 years if all they did was try to escape from pogroms? Clearly, things were not as bad as this article maintains - otherwise the holocaust would have happened centuries ago. Jews have had a stronger connection with Germany than probably any other nation since the destruction of Jerusalem. This article is in many ways an insult to Jewish culture as a whole; it portrays them as fools and victims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.127.98.2 (talk) 20:22, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Why did Jews live in Germany for 1000 years? First of all, 1700 years is more like it. Second, many of them fled for their lives during the later Middle Ages. Most of them moved eastward to Poland, where Jewish culture thrived until the 18thC. I'd say that Poland was the country with which Jews had the closest connection, given the large population, the centuries of prosperity and independence, the Parliament of Four Lands, etc. On the other hand, "otherwise the Holocaust would have happened centuries ago" ignores that a) the Holocaust happened in the context of German conquest of almost the entire continent; b) that large, though localized slaughters of Jews (and other minorities) happened several times in the last millennium; c) that, given warning, over half of Germany's Jews did emigrate in the years before the Holocaust.
As to the black death, etc. being "as big [a] part of the negatives", note that war was often used as a pretext for unrelated killing of Jews (the First Crusade's first act was the slaughter of half the Jews in the Rheinland); that Jews were blamed for the Black Death (well-poisoning accusations); and that hunger and disease weren't specifically Jewish problems. Sure, one should examine the effects on the Jewish community of more general developments, such as the introduction of movable type, the Treaty of Westphalia, vaccination, etc.; but insofar as those are simply things that changed Europe or Germany or some other region as a whole, they should be discussed in the context of those places.RogerLustig (talk) 15:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The article could perhaps use more info on Jewish "success stories" in German society, business and culture. Also, any historical article, not just this one, is inadequate when it comes to describing the everyday give-and-take between people, the small acts of kindness and friendship between neighbors.

However, let's not kid ourselves: the centuries of oppression and mistreatment were real, and the fact that life for Jews often was worse elsewhere does not change that. If the two posters above feel that the article is lacking in certain areas, they are free to expand it by adding well-sourced material.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

A notable example of friendship between a Christian and a Jew is the relationship between Moses Mendelssohn and Gotthold Ephraim Lessing. A notable example of a prominent German going out of his way to combat antisemitism is Theodor Mommsen and his opposition to Heinrich von Treitschke. Unfortunately, this Article mentions neither Lessing nor Mommsen.
I am working on an article detailing the relations between Germany's two great banking dynasties – one Christian-owned, the other Jewish-owned – at the turn of the 18th to the 19th century.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 18:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Same city

In the following sentence, "Mayence" is used without indication that this is the same city as previously mentioned, namely "Mainz." It is simply the French name rather than the German one. This should be made clear. "At that time R. Gershom ben Judah was teaching at Metz and Mayence, gathering about him pupils from far and near."

Apace361 02:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)Apace361

1950's German Law Regarding Citizenship for Jews Fleeing Nazism

Someone posted a link to an article about a German law dating from the 1950`s allowing the children and grandchildren of German Jews fleeing Nazism to apply for German citizenship. But the conclusion that the wave of Jewish immigrants coming to Germany in the last 2 decades is due to that law is erroneous. As has already been stated in the “Jewish population” section, over 190,000 Jewish immigrants have come to Germany from countries of the former Soviet Union. But these were allowed into the country under a refugee law, which has nothing to do with the 1950’s legislation (check the detailed information on the Central Council of Jews’ homepage, see above links). Moreover, the German government is in no position to grant German citizenship to those who are only interested in gaining access to the labor markets of other European countries, as is obviously the case with the applicant interviewed in the posted article. This type of “economic immigration” is regulated by EU law, not by German law. Further, someone with a German passport but not living in Germany can hardly be called an immigrant to Germany,let alone a member of Germany’s Jewish community.

Nellov5 20:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Possible Copyright Infringement?

This has been discussed before, see the paragraph on "Copyvio" above. Most of the early history of this article (up until the 19th century) has been taken from the PUBLIC DOMAIN "Jewish Encyclopedia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Encyclopedia. It has been stated in the "Reference" section of this article that "this article incorporates text from the 1901–1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, a publication now in the public domain." A quick comparison to the online-version of the "Jewish Encyclopedia" will confirm this. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=160&letter=G&search=germany

The German website - that was used to put the "Copyright infringement" tag on this article - CLEARLY states at the end of the article that their text is an "excerpt taken and edited from the "Jewish Encyclopedia" as well!!! http://www.talmud.de/cms/History_of_judaism_in_ger.241.0.html

Most of the other "History of the Jews in a European Country" articles on Wikipedia also use the "Jewish Encyclopedia" as a source. If anything, the above German website used the text that has been edited here first, and not the other way around!

Nellov5 (talk) 02:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed tag. Public domain means it's okay for Wikipedia to use. Read the copyrighted works policy again, please. Mike H. Fierce! 04:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Jewish descent

There are actually millions of Germans who are of Jewish descent. The Swiss "Genetic" company iGenea says, that tests show, that 10% of all Germans got Jewish roots:

http://www.igenea.com/docs/bams.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.94.186.41 (talk) 01:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Unnecessary headers reverted

I've reverted the addition of headers by 204.52.215.107. I see no point to designating historical periods as "philo-" or "anti-Semitic". The term "anti-Semitism" dates to the late 19thC and is often used to differentiate racial from religious Jew-hatred. Besides, there was much philo-semitism during the periods designated as anti-semitic, and vice versa. People, institutions and actions are philo- or anti-semitic; historical periods are not.RogerLustig (talk) 00:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually the Germans are the Tribe of Judah. They are Hebrews. The "German-Jewish" conflict of the 20th century was of divine origin.

Taught to speak German?

I quote from the paragraph on Moses Mendelssohn:

"This book became the manual of the German Jews, teaching them to write and speak the German language, and preparing them for participation in German culture and secular science. Mendelssohn lived to see the first fruits of his endeavors."

They already spoke the German language from the start. Yes, the uneducated may haven spoken Yiddish, a German patois, but even that is still recognisably German. Fiddleback (talk) 22:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Banking and Science

I realize this article follows a chronological format, so where would it be appropriate to include more information on the major Jewish banking dynasties in Germany? The article only briefly mentions the banking issue during the very early history. Also I see very little of the great contribution German Jews made to the advancement science. TWilliams9 (talk) 02:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Number of Jews officially registered with religious communities

The CENTRAL COUNCIL OF JEWS has updated that number from 108,000 to 120,000. I can change the figure in the "Post Reunification" paragraph, but cannot add below source to the (foot) notes under "Central Council of Jews". I would therefore appreciate if someone could make the update in the article. Thanks!

http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/en/topic/106.html

Nellov5 (talk) 00:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do your homework. The numbers, given on the homepage of the Central Council of Jews, are from 2007. They are refering to 2006/2007. The ZWST are new and accurate. The ZWST is an organisation of the Central Council. The ZWST updates the numbers once a year. The Central Council of jews is referring to this figures, but has not updated them: http://www.zwst.org/cms/documents/178/de_DE/gesamtstatistik_2008.pdf Just open any community within the map and you'll read (for example) Members: 1065 (Stand: 2007/ZWST) -- Chajm (talk) 07:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Jews in Medieval Europe

I don't know where this would best go, but KHM 7: The Good Bargain (Der gute Handel), of Grimm's Fairy Tales is an example of anti-semetic views during the medieval period. 173.57.117.239 (talk) 07:24, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Nazis really scrutinized their soldiers?

The article reads: "American historian Bryan Mark Rigg argues that approximately 150,000 German Jews had served in the German Wehrmacht, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals. A great many of these men did not even consider themselves Jewish and had embraced the military as a way of life, eager as devoted patriots to serve a revived German nation. In turn, they had been embraced by the Wehrmacht, which prior to Hitler had given little thought to the race of these men but which was now forced to look deeply into the ancestry of its soldiers.[17]"

I'm familiar with Mr. Rigg's points (haven't read his books) but did the German military really "look deeply" into the ancestry of its soldiers? I don't recall hearing anything about mass expulsions of quarter- or half-Jewish servicemen (if for no other reason than they needed the manpower). Among the SS yes but mixed Jewish Germans never would have been admitted into the organization (nor presumably would have applied) to begin with. Historian932 (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Most German Jews that emigrated from Nazi Germany went to Palestine - should be mentioned

See Évian Conference, Haavara agreement. German Jews immigrating to Palestine, over 100,000, played a crucial role in the founding of the State of Israel. This should be mentioned in this article.Jimhoward72 (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Was Germany ever declared Judenfrei?

This is doubtful because some Jews lived legally in Germany up to the end of the war (spouses of German women). There were even two Jewish hospitals in Berlin which functioned until the end of the war. Besides this there were many Jewish forced-labor workers in Germany, including in rocket industry. Lodz ghetto was also situated in the territory annexed by Germany, it functioned until mid-1944 and some Jews remained there until the end of the war. I think Germany never was declared Judenfrei.--MathFacts (talk) 14:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

"German Jews" is not the same as the History of the Jews in Germany

  1. "German Jews" could and does also refer to Jews from Germany who then left Germany and live outside of Germany, it is not the same as History of the Jews in Germany.
  2. By now, in Jewish and general scholarship, what is meant by "pure" or even "generic" "German" or "Germanic" Jews is covered by Ashkenazi Jews ("Ashkenaz="German/y" in traditional Biblical Hebrew, that has come to mean all European Jews), while over time all different types of Jews have come to live in Germany.
  3. Today it is mostly Jews from the former USSR who are the so-called "German Jews" and that does not make them "German" either.
  4. However, it is the all-inclusive "History of the Jews in Germany" that deals with the successive waves of Jewish arrival, treatment, life, expulsion, and the cycle goes on, of Jews from different parts of Europe coming to Germany.
  5. Another example, there were Jews who came from Spain after the expulsion in 1492, mostly to the Hamburg area, who were originally Sefardic Jews, so that again is an example of history of the Jews in Germany, and not of "German Jews" because they did not become "German" as they got off the boats or crossed the borders.
  6. Almost all Jews in Germany prior to the Holocaust either escaped, fled or were expelled or were murdered by Hitler in any case so that the Jews in Germany today are from Slavic countries of the USSR. So it's more accurate to stick with the history label.
  7. There could be a separate article about the German Jews as an ethnicity and religion within Germany, about Jewish Germans; Islamic Germans etc just as there are extensive categories for Americans by ethnic origins at Category:American people by ethnic or national origin.
  8. But there has to be a History article of Jews in Germany, no matter their origins, because such a topic is important in and of itself and not just narrowing it down and limiting it to a topic about ethnicity or a group. IZAK (talk) 11:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

What is a German Jew?

I came to this article from another article that mentioned Jews born in Germany. That is one of "German Jew."

The other kind of German Jew is the Jewish population of central and eastern Europe that speaks Yiddish, a form of German. Even in some periods when there was no nation-state of Germany there was this kind of German Jew. Ashkenazi means German-speaking Jewish just as Sephardic means Spanish-speaking Jewish.

Further complicating matters is that the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews are still called Ashkenazi or Sephardic even though they do not speak Yiddish or Ladino.

The Yiddish-speaking Jews, the Ashkenazim, are the German Jews, but not all Jews born in Germany are German Jews in this sense, because Jews of Sephardic descent can be born in Germany too and they would be called by some people "German Jews."

I suppose that the equation of "German-Jews" (i.e. Yiddish-speaking Jews) with Ashkenazim has waned considerably since Yiddish is little spoken today. In this vacuum the term German Jew acquired another definition.

This ambiguity needs to be explained if not cleared up. HaddingtheGreat (talk) 03:08, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

"German Jews" was always considered to be the Jews who lived in Germany. Ashkenazi Jews in Poland, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine were never considered to be "German Jews". Jayjg (talk) 04:11, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

File:1920 poster 12000 Jewish soldiers KIA for the fatherland.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:1920 poster 12000 Jewish soldiers KIA for the fatherland.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011
What should I do?
A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:22, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Problems with Numbers

The section on the Holocaust states:

"American historian Bryan Mark Rigg argues that approximately 150,000 German Jews had served in the German Wehrmacht, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals."

However, the very next section goes on to say:

"90% of the 214,000 Jews still left in Germany in 1939 were killed during the war".

Something is badly wrong here. A population of 214,000 simply cannot yield 150,000 men in a country's armed forces, even if they are all welcomed with open arms (which of course wasn't the case). The notion is laughable. Either some of these figures are plain wrong, or completely different defintions of what constituted a Jew are being being merrily bandied about, without comment or elucidation, from one section to the next. For example, did Mark Riggs include men with no more than a vague, rumoured Jewish link of some kind or other? Norvo (talk) 02:22, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

150,000 Jews had served in the Wermacht throughout its history; they weren't all still serving in 1939 - in fact, almost none were still in the Wermacht by then. Jayjg (talk) 18:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. If that is really what Mark Rigg says, then that needs to be made explicit.
At the moment, it is not clear from the aritcle what the figure of 150,000 refers to.
The use of the German term Wehrmacht is also a potential source
of confusion, as it was only introduced in 1936. If the Mark
Rigg figure refers to the German armed forces from 1871(?) throughout
the period up to the end of WWII it would be much better to refer to German armed forces in the period __ to ___. The fact that the figure is mentioned in the Holocaust section seems to imply that Rigg was referring to period when the Holocaust was taking place (or a time-frame very close to it). It would be helpful if someone who has read the book - which I have not - could tighten the wording. Moreover, at present the note leads to a link to the publisher's advertisement, which is a far from ideal source. Norvo (talk) 03:30, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I've read the book. The problem here is with definitions of the term "Jew"--which is a major topic of Rigg's book, which is about how Nazi racial politics tied itself into knots over issues of who-is-a-Jew, mixed-"race" ancestry, etc. The "Jewish soldiers" of the title refers to men who were considered to be Jewish *in some sense* and *at some point during the war.* At first, "Mischlinge" were conscripted; later they were banned from service. At first they were not subject to deportation; toward the end of the war there were moves to extend the "final solution" to them. There were strict rules about who could serve--and huge numbers of exceptions, many that required Hitler's personal adjudication. RogerLustig (talk) 14:02, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

That is rather along the lines of what I suspected. The article should not use one definition of what constitutes a Jew for the overall Jewish population in 1939 and another, different and shifting definition for "Jews" in the German armed forces in WWII. It is sloppy and very misleading. Norvo (talk) 02:27, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Martin Luther and his writings

Wouldn't some discussion on Martin Luther and his writings be appropriate here? IMHO (talk) 19:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The Holocaust (1940–1945) - to be written

Xx236 (talk) 13:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Immigration to and from Germany

Suggest that someone add information on the tens of thousands of German-speaking Jews who left Germany in the mid nineteenth century to go to the United States, written about by Hasia Diner in A Time For Gathering. And we could do with something about Eastern European Jews who arrived in or passed through Germany in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, the so-called Ostjuden. Both Jack Wertheimer and Steven Aschheim wrote about that. --82.102.141.201 (talk) 00:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Created infobox

The article didn't have an infobox so I created one. The people which were chosen to be used for images are:

Karl Marx • Albert Einstein • Heinrich Heine • Emmy Noether
Emanuel Lasker • Eduard Bernstein • Felix Mendelssohn • Emile Berliner

Please discuss here who else should be added in a third row! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 21:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Why did you include Karl Marx? He was an atheist who had a secular education. In which definition would he qualify as Jewish? I think only in some essentialist vision would he qualify as Jewish (it's no wonder that usually, anti-semite Nazis are the first to brand him "a Jew"). 81.202.206.81 (talk) 14:09, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

How did jews in the middle ages make money?

This article is pretty much all about violence against jews. It does not give any information on what jewish people did for a living in Germany during the middle ages or how some of them became very wealthy. The money lending history sources are not very detailed at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.100.47.90 (talk) 19:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Russian-speaking majority

Starting this thread to avoid edit warring. According to ref. [1] there are ca. 250000 Jews and their family members living in Germany. Furthermore, this ref. says on page 54:

In Germany, Jewish immigration mainly from the FSU, brought to the country over 200,000 Jews and non-Jewish household members between 1989 and 2005. This caused a significant boost in the Jewish population of Germany that had previously relied on a few Shoah survivors and several thousand immigrants mostly from Eastern Europe and Israel.

So there are more than 200000 immigrants, most of them from the former FSU (i.e. Russian-speaking) out of 250000. How can one doubt that the Russian-speaking ones constitute the majority?

Excluding the non-Jewish family members, the same ref. states on page 33:

In Germany, the Jewish community experienced a threefold population increase due to a significant inflow of FSU immigrants since 1989.

This is shown in Table 10 on page 53: 31057 in 1989 vs. 102135 in 2012. Thus, the Jewish immigration from FSU brought over 70000 people. This is definitely the majority of 102135. --Off-shell (talk) 21:08, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ Sergio DellaPergola. “World Jewish Population, 2013,” in Arnold Dashefsky and Ira M. Sheskin. (Editors) The American Jewish Year Book, 2013, Volume 113(2013) (Dordrecht: Springer) pp. 279-358. Available at http://jewishdatabank.org/Studies/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=3113

The majority being from FSU is not what is in dispute. The original line read: Today, the majority of German Jews are Russian-speaking, with an estimated enlarged population of 250,000 Jews living in Germany. The wording makes it sound as though the amount of Russian Speaking Jews in Germany is 250,000 which clearly it is not.

OK, I didn't think it could be interpreted this way. I rephrase it. --Off-shell (talk) 22:03, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Interwar period

I was researching the Dolchstoßlegende and the German Revolution of 1918-1919, and eventually ended up here. I am surprised to find that there is absolutely no information on German Jews from 1919 to 1933. 138.229.154.131 (talk) 10:04, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Not a sentence.

"While Jewish emancipation did not eliminate all forms of discrimination against Jews, who often remained barred from holding official state positions." Not a sentence. Keith McClary (talk) 06:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Jewish casualties in WWI

Under the heading "Freedom and Repression, 1815-1930", it states "A higher percentage of German Jews fought in World War I than that of any other ethnic, religious or political group in Germany; some 12,000 died for their country." This is nonsensical. There are a number of far larger "ethnic, religious or political groups" than German Jews in Germany at the time, who fought in WWI. More than 13 million Germans fought in WWI and well over 4 million German soldiers died in the war. At least 33% of them would've been Catholics and another 33%, Lutherans, which dwarfs 12,000 German Jews. I suggest the claim be qualified or stricken. Bricology (talk) 07:55, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the intention is to refer to proportion; a higher percentage of German Jews served and died than other ethnic, religious, and political groups. 138.229.154.131 (talk) 10:01, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
only about 1% of the German population during WWI was Jewish 13:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.99.44 (talk)

German language

A new user, German Jews, has repeatedly removed [[German language|German]], from {{Infobox ethnic group}} and is asked to explain why. -- Sam Sailor Talk! 18:49, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


do you know Einstein spek hebrw and yedish you dont kno i told yo Einstein iz izrel spek hebrw yedish--German Jews (talk) 18:51, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Not a relevant argument to the case. If you read the article you will learn that Jews in Germany - not to any big surprise - also spoke German. I will revert your removal again, any further removals without proper, sound discussion and arguments will be regarded as disruptive editing and will be reverted on sight. -- Sam Sailor Talk! 18:59, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Jews in East Germany

I think we should have some reliable sources proving the statement shown in the main article Many Jews of East Germany moved to Israel in 1970's. Personally I know of none, if they left they most often went to live in West Germany.. I would be very interested in any sources which can prove that sort of relocation in the 70's.107.181.70.76 (talk) 08:30, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on History of the Jews in Germany. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 19:15, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Added Peck reference

I have done this to restore the deleted text which however is just a hint of the actual situation. I am sure that there are other references, but the Peck book is full of relevant material. I don't have time to do this now but I hope that somebody can pick this up and expand the restored text. Joel Mc (talk) 13:39, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Reorganization of the German Jewish Community

This paragraph in this article could use some additions. I will be using the reference: [1]

This reference focuses heavily on Jewish women roles in Germany at this time. This paragraph speaks of German Jewish rebirth after the enlightenment, but fails to mention the impact that women had on this time period as well as the emphasis put on assimilation via bildung. One of the changes that occurred was Jewish women beginning to have more of an impact on society. Jewish women were contradicting their view points in the sense that they were modernizing while keeping traditions alive. In the reference used, we will include evidence regarding the way German Jewish mothers were shifting the way they raised their children. An example of this are tendencies developed at the time to move out of Jewish neighborhoods, thus changing who Jewish children grew up around and conversed with, all in all shifting the dynamic of the then close-knit Jewish community. The incorporation of both the important actions of German-Jewish women, as well as the shift the German-Jewish people saw as a whole during this period of assimilation will be added to this paragraph.

If anyone is inclined to add to this information please let us know on our talk page. We would be delighted to learn other information you feel is pertinent. Raizi1836 (talk) 04:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC) Raizi1836 You write you'll add the impact women had on German Jewry but it's not quite clear what that impact WAS. What do you mean they were contradicting their points of view? Maybe it's just semantics but that part is unclear. Are you going to provide examples of both the modernizing and the traditions? What do you mean by "shifting the dynamic... etc"? Could use some clarification. Also, reference info is partial. 

What year & publication? Chapmansh (talk) 22:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Kaplan, Marion. "Assimilation and Community". The Jews in Nineteenth Century Europe.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on History of the Jews in Germany. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:39, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Women's role

Under the Section "1815-1918" I would like to add information about the role of Jewish women in linking German culture with Jewish culture. I want to add arguments that some historians believed that Jews lost touch with their Judaism and only followed German Culture. While others like Marion A. Kaplan argued that the Jewish people, with the help of the Jewish women, stayed connected to their Jewish Traditions. Information about this should be added the fifth paragraph of this section. The world should be educated in both perspectives of this topic. According to Marion A. Kaplan's "Assimilation and Community: The Jews in nineteenth century Europe" Jewish Women played an important role in the integration of the Jews in Germany while also preserving the Jewish culture. It was the woman's job to raise German children while also keeping the Jewish culture intact. Women made sure the household practiced the Jewish tradition by enforcing kosher and the sabbath. [1] Maya04211999 (talk) 08:50, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Kaplan, Marion (2004). Assimilation and Community: The Jews in nineteenth Century Europe. Cambridge, New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 201–216.

Markus Wolf and others not Jewish

According to the Wikipedia entry for Markus Wolf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Wolf) only his father was Jewish. Under Jewish Law (Halacha) that does not make him Jewish. Dori1951 (talk) 11:01, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Two other people listed under prominent people in East Germany were not Jewish either, Gregor Gysi and Hanns Eisler -- see their Wikipedia entries. I have amended the main article accordingly. Dori1951 (talk) 11:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

persistence of anti Semitism 

Tennis2021

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/112/26/7931.full.pdf

I plan to improve this Wikipedia page using data from a secondary source article. I will enhance the Wiki page by incorporating more direct evidence and more examples pertaining to the role of anti-Semitism in Germany to make the article more factual than it is currently. The article I intend to draw from talks about various surveys that were done on the general public to evaluate evidence of anti-Semitism. In one survey, researchers asked several questions about people’s attitudes towards Jews. The authors of this article, Nico Voigtländera and Hans-Joachim Voth, analyze and discuss the combination of studies done by the National Bureau of Economic Research, Cambridge, and the center for Economic Policy Research, London on German Anti-Semitic teachings during the Nazi era and how these brainwashing methods have left residue in German culture to this day. I was curious about the current state of Germany and if there were any groups of people who carried on Hitler’s beliefs after his regime. This article provides clear evidence that there are still individuals around today who lived through the Hitler era and who believed in his hatred mindset. It notes that these people are still influencing the younger generations. This article I will incorporate into the Wiki page also discusses how the brainwashing was so strong in the schilling system and overall environment in the 1940s and 1950s that it stuck with the generation that grew up with it for all these years and they have passed on the anti-sematic culture to younger generations. Voth also provides a study done in Germany in this article about the current views of the population. “Two waves of the General Social Survey for Germany (ALLBUS 1996 and 2006) asked a set of seven questions about attitudes toward Jews. For each of these questions, respondents answered on a numerical scale ranging from 1 to 7; we recoded the scale so that 7 is always the most anti-Semitic response. For example, 17% of German respondents felt that Jews should blame themselves for their own persecution, 25.7% were uncomfortable with the idea of a Jew marrying into their family, and 21.5% felt that Jews should not have equal rights (scores of 5 or higher on a scale from 1 to 7).” These statistics show the prevalence of anti-Semitic beliefs and behaviors in today’s society, decades after Hitler’s regime. It goes to show the impact one person can have on a culture and how they can change a culture for a long period of time, whether it be a positive influence or, in this case, a very negative influence. The persistence of anti-Semitism really stemmed from the Nazi regime. A lot of Germans grew up under it and were exposed to a wide range of indoctrination methods. The significance that came from the findings is that Germans that grew up under the Nazi regime are much more anti-Semitic today than those born before or after that period. I think this information will be beneficial to the article and add more specific information about the state of anti-Semitism today and the role of anti-Semitism in German society more broadly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tennis2021 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany/Archive_1&oldid=1163912124"