Talk:Holocaust trains/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

  • Endorse speedy closure. Tomertalk 22:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Applause!

To Trident for this amazing rewrite, done under significant time pressure! (Oh, might as well weigh in: I prefer a title with "and" as a connector: "Rail transport and the Holocaust" or "Trains and the Holocaust") --Myke Cuthbert 17:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I ditto your applause on the rewrite. The article's name isn't set in stone. I doubt that the mini:"consensus" of "Holocaust trains" as the best option of those suggested really precludes discussion of a potentially more fitting title, should it be discussed in text large enough to read w/o a microscope. :-) Tomertalk 23:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Name

This article's name violates WP:NAME, if for no other reason, because it begins with the word "the"... Tomertalk 23:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Then at least suggest an alternate! Holocaust Trains ...or .... Trains of the Holocaust? Having pulled it back from AfD with a major rewrite, I'm pretty much wikied out at present! Rgds, --Trident13 00:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Suggest Holocaust rail transport —dgiestc 00:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
    I'm trying to come up with a decent name... I'm not sure Holocaust rail transport really captures what this article is about. Tomertalk 00:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Digging around after doing this gsearch, I propose the very neutral sounding Trains of death or Holocaust trains (I know the latter isn't from the title of the article it links to...but the way it showed up in the gsearch is what gave me the idea.) Cheers, Tomertalk 00:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I assume you were being sarcastic about Trains of death being neutral-sounding. While we shouldn't sanitize the subject, it's bad to be melodramatic about it. I think "Holocaust" should be the first word since it is more about that than rail transport. In that light, Holocaust trains is a pretty good option. —dgiestc 00:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
      Oh, my tongue hurts from yanking it out of my cheek. It was stuck pretty tight. I agree, "Holocaust trains" is a good title...in fact, far more likely than any of the other options to be used as a "search term". Cheers, Tomertalk 01:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
      All in favor? All opposed? Yea/Nay? Tomertalk 01:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"Trains of death" is too POV (must be a joke), so if we have to choose a title now then the best so far is Holocaust trains. Rgds, --Trident13 08:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course it was in jest. I thought I'd already clarified that.  :-\ Tomertalk 23:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
"Holocaust trains" is OK but I prefer Role of trains in the Holocaust per my suggestion below and despite the response from Dgies. --Richard 20:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Title

The following discussion dating back to mid May 2007 is now archived. Please do not modify it.

I like the article (well, as much as anyone can like a discussion of such an abhorrent episode in human history). I'm glad it was speedy kept; I would have voted to keep.

However, I don't like the title because it strikes me as a neologism. Does anyone outside of Wikipedia use the phrase "Holocaust trains"? If not, maybe we should change the title to "Role of trains in the Holocaust".

--Richard 20:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

That seems unnecessarily wordy, and the term is in use. —dgiestc 20:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
351 ghits is something short of impressive. --Richard 21:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
According to google it's 175x more popular: [2] —dgiestc 21:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course most short phrases are usually going to be more common than a longer one. I agree with Richard's concern that "Holocaust trains" sounds like it should be a common term for these trains, and it is not. Even though it is not completely a neologism (there are a few ghits for the expression) nor is it in common use. On the other hand, "Role of trains in the Holocaust" nearly perfectly describes the article's contents. (I think though the term should be "rail transport," because it's about the whole system rather than just the trains). --Myke Cuthbert 02:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

How about a good proposal for the name, Role of trains in the Holocaust, just to use a "random" (wink wink) example, with "Holocaust trains" as a redirect (which will happen if the article is simply moved to the newly-agreed-upon title)? Tomertalk 07:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems too wordy/passive voice. 3 words are pronouns, prepositions or adpositions, and the two opmrative words are at the end. —dgiestc 05:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The current suggestions all seem far too wordy, and not quite right. I have put a request on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish history for their input. I'd like to get this resolved, as I am considering developing this article up to Featured Article status. Rgds, --Trident13 11:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I rather like the suggestions by Myke Cuthbert of using "Trains and the Holocaust" or "Rail transport and the Holocaust". This ties the two topics together without creating a neologism, and sounds academic and professional. "Rail transport and the Holocaust" is the kind of phrasing I would fully expect to see as the subtitle of an academic paper. LordAmeth 13:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive record. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this section.

Payment

This section has no citations sourcing it so I am adding the template for it. If anyone could clear this section up then it may not need to be deleted 210.84.41.177 (talk) 10:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Variations

I've re-arranged the Variations section to include a paragraph on Germany. I was surprised to find there wasn't one already. Xyl 54 (talk) 00:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Inaccuracies in Modern day legacy: France

Hello, to whomever may be watching this page. Although I have introduced myself elsewhere on Wikipedia, primarily on the SNCF page, this is my first message here. My name is Jerry Ray, and I am a consultant to SNCF, the French railway company, in Washington, DC. Last year I began reaching out to editors to help address inaccuracies related to the Holocaust in the SNCF article. Now I would like to bring editors' attention to similar issues within this article.

As editors here will no doubt agree, this is a difficult subject, but one in which it is highly important to get the facts right. My aim here is to provide a revised version of the current "Modern day legacy" section. This new version, with which I have had some assistance in researching and writing, represents an improvement in several ways. First, it presents a clearer overview of what was at stake in the Liepitz case. Second, it describes the US controversy more accurately, which was not limited to California. Third, it better describes how SNCF handled it and other viewpoints in the case, some of which is retained from the current entry. Lastly, there is a short final paragraph describing actions taken by SNCF in the modern era relating to this episode.

Here is what I suggest:

France
===France===

In 2001, a lawsuit was filed against French government-owned rail company SNCF by Georges Lipietz, a Holocaust survivor, who was transported by SNCF to the Drancy internment camp in 1944.[1] Lipietz was held at the internment camp for several months before the camp was liberated.[2] After Lipietz's death the lawsuit was pursued by his family and in 2006 an administrative court in Toulouse ruled in favor of the Lipietz family. SNCF was ordered to pay 61,000 Euros in restitution. SNCF appealed the ruling at an administrative appeals court in Bordeaux, where in March 2007 the original ruling was overturned.[1][3] According to historian Michael Marrus the court in Bordeaux "declared the railway company had acted under the authority of the Vichy government and the German occupation" and as such could not be held independently liable.[4]

Following the Lipietz trial, SNCF's involvement in World War II became the subject of attention in the United States when SNCF explored bids on rail projects in Florida and California, and SNCF's partly-owned subsidiary, Keolis Rail Services America bid on projects in Virginia and Maryland.[5] While bidding on these rail contracts, SNCF was criticized for not formally acknowledging and apologizing for its involvement in World War II. In 2011, SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy released a formal statement of regrets for the company's actions during World War II.[6][7][8] Some historians have expressed the opinion that SNCF has been unfairly targeted in the United States for their involvement in World War II. Human rights attorney Arno Klarsfeld has argued that the negative focus on SNCF was disrespectful to the French railway workers who lost their lives engaging in acts of resistance.[6] Marrus wrote in his 2011 essay that the company has taken responsibility for their actions and it is the company's willingness to open up their archives and acknowledge their involvement in the transportation of Holocaust victims that has led to the recent legal and legislative attention.[4]

In 1992, SNCF commissioned a report on its involvement in World War II. The company opened its archives to an independent historian, Christian Bachelier, whose report was released in French in 2000.[4][6][9] It was translated to English in 2010.[5] Between 2002 and 2004 SNCF helped fund an exhibit on deportation of Jewish children that was organized by Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld.[4] In 2011, SNCF helped set up a railway station outside of Paris to a Shoah Foundation for the creation of a memorial to honor Holocaust victims.[6]

References

  1. ^ a b "French railways win WWII appeal". BBC. 27 March 2007. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  2. ^ CBC News (7 June 2006). "French railway must pay for transporting family to Nazis". Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  3. ^ Canellas, Claude (27 March 2007). "Court quashes SNCF Nazi deportations ruling". Reuters. Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  4. ^ a b c d Marrus, Michael R. (2011). "Chapter 12 The Case of the French Railways and the Deportation of Jews in 1944". In Bankier, David; Michman, Dan (eds.). Holocaust and Justice. Berghahn Books. ISBN 978-9-65308-353-0. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  5. ^ a b Shaver, Katherine (7 July 2010). "Holocaust group faults VRE contract". The Washington Post. Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  6. ^ a b c d Baume, Maïa De La (25 January 2011). "French Railway Formally Apologizes to Holocaust Victims". The New York Times. Retrieved 26 October 2012.
  7. ^ Schofield, Hugh (13 November 2010). "SNCF apologises for role in WWII Jewish deportations". Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  8. ^ Ganley, Elaine (14 November 2010). "SNCF, French Railroad, Apologizes For Holocaust Role Before Florida Bid". The Huffington Post. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  9. ^ "California set to force France's national rail service to reveal its Holocaust role as part of bid for $45m contract". Daily Mail. 1 July 2010. Retrieved 15 November 2012.

I am very interested to hear feedback on this version from editors here. Please make any edits you wish and I will answer any questions I can. Thanks in advance. Jerry M. Ray (talk) 21:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

More material on the concerns (overblown or not) raised by the politicians in the US seems necessary. Also, the news stories in the ruling against SNCF being overturned in 2007 state that this was done as the court which made the original ruling didn't have the appropriate jurisdiction - how does this gel with what Marrus wrote? Nick-D (talk) 07:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi Nick-D, thank you for reviewing this draft. First, I've included an excerpt from Marrus' report regarding the 2007 ruling. Marrus explains that the issue of jurisdiction is closely related to the issue of liability. He says that because SNCF cannot be held independently liable, the Appeal Court lacked the jurisdiction to rule one the case.
On March 27, 2007, the plaintiffs suffered a severe setback when, in response to an appeal by the SNCF, the Administrative Appeal Court in Bordeaux reversed the Toulouse decision and declared the railway company had acted under the authority of the Vichy government and the German occupation. The SNCF, the court said in effect, had acted under governmental authority and hence could not be held independently liable. The Appeal Court, therefore, had no jurisdiction in the case. Months later, in December 2007, the matter went to the Conseil d'Etat, which pronounced definitively against the plaintiff's appeal.
Second, I have revised the draft to include more information about concerns raised by U.S. politicians. Please let me know what you think of this draft. Thanks, Jerry M. Ray (talk) 19:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Revised France
===France===

In 2001, a lawsuit was filed against French government-owned rail company SNCF by Georges Lipietz, a Holocaust survivor, who was transported by SNCF to the Drancy internment camp in 1944.[1] Lipietz was held at the internment camp for several months before the camp was liberated.[2] After Lipietz's death the lawsuit was pursued by his family and in 2006 an administrative court in Toulouse ruled in favor of the Lipietz family. SNCF was ordered to pay 61,000 Euros in restitution. SNCF appealed the ruling at an administrative appeals court in Bordeaux, where in March 2007 the original ruling was overturned.[1][3] According to historian Michael Marrus the court in Bordeaux "declared the railway company had acted under the authority of the Vichy government and the German occupation" and as such could not be held independently liable.[4]

Following the Lipietz trial, SNCF's involvement in World War II became the subject of attention in the United States when SNCF explored bids on rail projects in Florida and California, and SNCF's partly-owned subsidiary, Keolis Rail Services America bid on projects in Virginia and Maryland.[5] In 2010, Keolis placed a bid on a contract to operate the Brunswick and Camden lines of the MARC train in Maryland.[5] Following pressure from Holocaust survivors in Maryland, the state passed legislation in 2011 requiring companies bidding on the project to disclose their involvement in the Holocaust.[6][7] Keolis currently operates the Virginia Railway Express, a contract the company received in 2010.[5][6] In California, also in 2010, state lawmakers passed the Holocaust Survivor Responsibility Act. The bill, written to require companies to disclose their involvement in World War II,[8] was later vetoed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.[9][7]

While bidding on these rail contracts, SNCF was criticized for not formally acknowledging and apologizing for its involvement in World War II. In 2011, SNCF chairman Guillaume Pepy released a formal statement of regrets for the company's actions during World War II.[10][11][12] Some historians have expressed the opinion that SNCF has been unfairly targeted in the United States for their involvement in World War II. Human rights attorney Arno Klarsfeld has argued that the negative focus on SNCF was disrespectful to the French railway workers who lost their lives engaging in acts of resistance.[10] Marrus wrote in his 2011 essay that the company has taken responsibility for their actions and it is the company's willingness to open up their archives and acknowledge their involvement in the transportation of Holocaust victims that has led to the recent legal and legislative attention.[4]

In 1992, SNCF commissioned a report on its involvement in World War II. The company opened its archives to an independent historian, Christian Bachelier, whose report was released in French in 2000.[4][10][13] It was translated to English in 2010.[5] Between 2002 and 2004 SNCF helped fund an exhibit on deportation of Jewish children that was organized by Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld.[4] In 2011, SNCF helped set up a railway station outside of Paris to a Shoah Foundation for the creation of a memorial to honor Holocaust victims.[10]

References

  1. ^ a b "French railways win WWII appeal". BBC. 27 March 2007. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  2. ^ CBC News (7 June 2006). "French railway must pay for transporting family to Nazis". Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  3. ^ Canellas, Claude (27 March 2007). "Court quashes SNCF Nazi deportations ruling". Reuters. Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  4. ^ a b c d Marrus, Michael R. (2011). "Chapter 12 The Case of the French Railways and the Deportation of Jews in 1944". In Bankier, David; Michman, Dan (eds.). Holocaust and Justice. Berghahn Books. ISBN 978-9-65308-353-0. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  5. ^ a b c d Shaver, Katherine (7 July 2010). "Holocaust group faults VRE contract". The Washington Post. Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  6. ^ a b Zeitvogel, Karin (20 May 2011). "US governor signs Holocaust disclosure law". European Jewish Press. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  7. ^ a b Witte, Brian (19 May 2011). "Md. governor signs bill on company's WWII role". Businessweek. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  8. ^ Samuel, Henry (30 August 2010). "SNCF to open war archives to California". The Telegraph. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  9. ^ Weikel, Dan (2 October 2010). "Schwarzenegger vetoes bill requiring rail firms interested in train project to disclose WWII-era activities". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  10. ^ a b c d Baume, Maïa De La (25 January 2011). "French Railway Formally Apologizes to Holocaust Victims". The New York Times. Retrieved 26 October 2012.
  11. ^ Schofield, Hugh (13 November 2010). "SNCF apologises for role in WWII Jewish deportations". Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  12. ^ Ganley, Elaine (14 November 2010). "SNCF, French Railroad, Apologizes For Holocaust Role Before Florida Bid". The Huffington Post. Retrieved 16 November 2012.
  13. ^ "California set to force France's national rail service to reveal its Holocaust role as part of bid for $45m contract". Daily Mail. 1 July 2010. Retrieved 15 November 2012.
  • This discussion seems to have gone quiet. The latest text seems to cover the points raised, I think. It also explains things better, and adds a bit of context, I feel. Are there any objections to this text being posted instead of the existing one? Xyl 54 (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
    • That proposed text looks good to me. Nick-D (talk) 07:39, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
      • OK, done. It slotted in easily, no dud references or anything. Well done all! Xyl 54 (talk) 04:29, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Belgium and reliability

I've done some fairly radical revisioning of the "Belgium" section of the article. Alas, the topic is not my area of interest, but after moving The Holocaust in Belgium to GA, I feel I know something about this. Unfortunately, the existing paragraph had extremely skewed perspective and numerous (fairly basic) mistakes. This I think is the result of the poor sources which really do not measure up to WP:RS. This is a shame because it is an important topic, and books on it should not be difficult to come across. I do fear, however, that these inaccuracies may extend to the other sections also. Perhaps other editors could double check? Brigade Piron (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Just to check - there is literally no mention of Robert de Foy and the "Phantom Trains" (a journalist's over-excitable belief in Belgians deporting thousands of Jews with literally no compulsion on spec in September 1940?) in this source Belgium and the Holocaust: Jews, Belgians, Germans and The Holocaust: The Fate of European Jewry, 1932-1945 which are both impeccable and comprehensive sources. Brigade Piron (talk) 21:34, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Naming (again)

The following discussion from June 2014 is now archived. Please do not modify it.

The phrase "Holocaust train" is rarely, if ever, used verbatim in conversation or print. However, the Wikipedia use of the phrase makes for some awkward prose. I propose that this article be renamed Railroad car (The Holocaust) (such as the USHMM puts it).[3] Then it would also be disambiguated from the article Railroad car.- Gilliam (talk) 00:46, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the most used name online and in literature would be "Holocaust trains" as oppose to Holocaust train (singular). I don't understand why it wasn't plural to begin with. Poeticbent talk 01:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
As its a European based subject, why we would use Americanisms such as "railroad car" in the title? Secondly, the article is not about the trucks, but the trains and their purpose/chronology - so why focus a title on a truck/carriage (they did use both)? From day one there has always been a debate about the title of this article (it was originally the title of someone's thesis paper), and like Poeticbent I'd prefer the plural to the current singular, but at least that points here as a redirect. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 09:12, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive record. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this section.

Awkward phrasing

Normally I'd just be bold and edit, but I realise this might be a slightly trickier page than most. The page says:

"The longest transport of the war, from Corfu, took 18 days. When the train arrived at the camp and the doors were opened, everyone was already dead. The armed Trawniki guards shot the remaining few trying to run."

The last sentence is not in the source, nor consistent with the previous one. Pinkbeast (talk) 23:32, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

BR 52 a typical Holocaust locomotive? - see description of picture

To say that the BR 52 was a TYPICAL holocaust locomotive is a bit stupid to say the least, BECAUSE there was NO TYPICAL locomotive type! It could be any polish, german, French etx locomotive, considering that most death camps were situated in Poland (in fact the only one outside Poland was Auschwitz), a polish locomotive would have been used at the "end of the journey"! BR 52 came only in service in 1943 and when looked at closely, was very quickly removed from "front line" service (if need be I provide a source for this), because they were much to valuable! Peter A. Brenner, @: peterachimbrenner@yahoo.de 151.136.144.155 (talk) 07:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

  • You're wrong. Read again what the wp:caption says. Quote: Typical DRB Class 52 steam locomotive used by the Deutsche Reichsbahn during the Holocaust. Reference added with first-person account from Treblinka. Poeticbent talk 13:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
ie, the photo is of a typical BR 52, not a typical locomotive used on holocaust trains. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:18, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
  • According to DRB Class 52 article: "Over 6,700 locomotives of DRB Class 52 type were built across Europe for use on the Eastern Front during the Second World War. It therefore has a claim to being one of the most numerous steam locomotive classes in the world." All other types were built in small quantities by comparison.[4] Poeticbent talk 20:08, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

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Romania section

It contains various inaccuracies:

  • Total estimated number of Jewish people killed by the actions of Romanian Antonescu government is between 280,000 and 380,000 (see International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania). The various sources cited in the "Holocaust train" article are personal "tallies" by people that survived the Holocaust - the documented numbers were reviewed by a large number of experts in the Wiesel commission and an upper and lower limit were established based on verifiable data.
  • The large majority of these people were killed in the concentration camps in Bessarabia, northern Bukovina, and Transnistria - no Jews or Roma were sent by the Romanian government to Auschwitz nor Belzec (see same source).
  • Approximately 7000 Jews were interred and survived in Calarasi concentration camp in southern Romania after failed attempts to drive dozens of of them in the Soviet territories resulted in death.
  • reference 33 "Holocaust Controversies: Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research - Part 5 and Conclusion" has nothing to do with Romanian Jews.

In light of these numbers and facts (internationally recognized) I submit the following revised text for the section on Romania:

Romania had the third largest Jewish population in Europe after Russia and Poland, and antisemitic feelings ran high in pre-War Romania, based partly on Christian beliefs as well as modern politics stemming from King Carol II. When he was forced to resign, the Government headed by Ion Antonescu introduced draconian anti-Jewish legislation, which was openly inspired by the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. During 1941 and 1942, thirty-two anti-Semitic laws, thirty-one decree-laws, and seventeen government resolutions were passed and decreed. This resulted in many Jews leaving for Palestine by ship in Autumn 1940.[1]. The Romanian Antonescu regime was responsible for the deaths of between 280,000 and 380,000 Jews[2]. As a result of Romania having to give up territories to the Soviet Union, Hungary and Bulgaria in summer 1940, Jews in the new border regions were rounded up and massacred in concentration camps in Bessarabia, northern Bukovina, and Transnistria. Nearly 15,000 Jews were killed in various locations of the Romanian Old Kingdom, most notably during the Iasi pogrom. In addition, 26,000 Roma people were deported to Transnistria concentration camps, where almost 10,000 of them died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyry101 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ [1] Survivor shares unique story on Holocaust Remembrance Day
  2. ^ "Executive Summary: Historical Findings" (PDF). Final Report of the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania. Yad Vashem (The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority). Retrieved 2007-01-23.

Escape attempts

Something should probably be added to the article somewhere about escape attempts made by Jews en route. That they attempted to do so is well attested to by a variety of sources - Ordinary Men is just one example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eldomtom2 (talk • contribs) 02:18, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 25 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 01:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


Holocaust train → Holocaust trains – Basic grammar. A plural subject takes a plural verb. There's a prevalence of book sources about that also, see Talk:Holocaust train#Article title (once more). Thanks. Poeticbent talk 17:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 19:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Hi, @Poeticbent: This renaming will be against WP:SINGULAR policy and remember it has been debated before (which you had participated). This WP:RM/T is usually for non controversial and minor corrections. –Ammarpad (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move (as nominator). Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals) for examples of articles on groups or classes of specific things: in this instance, the topic is naturally the system of Holocaust trains, run by a number of national railways, mentioned thereafter. – See the tread right above also. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 21:36, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support. A Holocaust train is not a type of train; rather, per WP:PLURAL, "Holocaust trains" are a class of trains that were used for transport of Jews during the Holocaust. No such user (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Numbers?

The numbers don't add up. This article should be edited for accounting and veracity.

eg. "In a single 14-hour workday, 12,000 to 15,000[38] people would be killed at any one of these camps.[36][39]"

That's over 4 million a year.

189.250.242.90 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Article title (once more)

Please do not respond to eleven-year-old threads. They will soon be moved to a separate archive page by the bot. The last discussion about the title of this article was in June 2014 at Talk:Holocaust train#Naming (again). Some participants quoted ghits in support of their arguments. But 11-year-old ghits are irrelevant. All ghits are useless unless they link to articles devoted entirely to the subject of the Holocaust trains. Such articles are few and far between.

The phrase "Holocaust train" (singular) is used in one notable Google book as of 2018: The Train Journey: Transit, Captivity, and Witnessing in the Holocaust (ISBN 1571812687) by Gigliotti 2009 (quote): "The Holocaust train resonates in testimonies, literature, and visual culture as the vehicle to a fatal destination, rather than mobile residence to a life-threatening compression that both prepared deportees for, and disconnected them, from the camp world."

Meanwhile, the phrase "Holocaust trains" (plural) is used in several books including the Gray Zones: Ambiguity and Compromise in the Holocaust and Its Aftermath (ISBN 1845453026) by Petropoulos & Roth (2006), as well as by Gigliotti (2009, per above) in The Train Journey (ISBN 1571812687) , but also in To Hell and Almost Back (ISBN 1462878636) by S. Jones (2011), and in Holocaust Education by S.R. Haynes (1997), as well as in the Report on Antisemitism (2006), and in Uncommon Martyrs by Wilcox (1991), quote: "During visits to Germany [Joe Gump, a German-American] had asked relatives about the Holocaust trains: Who drove them? Who fired their engines, coupled their cars, kept them in running order?" – But why ask? Why ask in the first place? If, during wartime, a uniformed officer of the invading force orders you to drive, does your identity matter? Of course, there are other examples as well. — If there are no objections, I would like to rename this article using plural "Holocaust trains". In any other instance, the WP:Request for Comment will be necessary. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Follow up, at: Wikipedia:Requested moves

HOLOCAUST TRAINS What a nonsense! Justifying the use of this wording with "used in several books" is laughable. Who called the trains using for transports Holocaust trains at the time? No one! Any documents of the aera using it? No! Does any important historian or institution use this wording? No. It´s highest time to change this title. Austrianbird (talk) 15:32, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

General map of deportation routes and camps

Not a big thing, but the General map of deportation routes and camps (File:WW2-Holocaust-Europe-2007Borders.png) in the article shows Asti (Italy) as a concentration camp but, according to the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933–1945 (Volume III, page 404) Asti was just one of many regional camps and held just 21 Jewish prisoners, hardly a size that warrents being on this map I would think. I think, Borgo San Dalmazzo concentration camp would be far more likely to make it onto the map then Asti. The map should properly also include Milan as a major train departure point for Italy. Not sure if anybody here has the ability to alter the map on commons? I myself lack the skill to do so. Turismond (talk) 13:30, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

If someone is willing to edit this map, I would recommend adding Patronka and Poprad transit camps in Slovakia and lines from Patronka to Naleczow (Lublin) and Sered to Auschwitz. Catrìona (talk) 16:33, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
@Turismond:@Catriona: You can make a request for the maps to be edited at Commons:Commons:Graphics lab WhisperToMe (talk) 11:34, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Additional possible sources

https://library.gwu.edu/sites/default/files/eckles/German%20Railroads%20and%20the%20Holocaust_0.pdf is a paper by someone published by George Washington University. I am not sure of the value, but might be interesting. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:35, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Article title (once more) (cont'd from archive 1)

I agree with Austrianbird (Archive 1 - can't add there). Perhaps "Holocaust transport systems". "Holocaust trains" might be correct, but it reminds me of the documentary "Kitty Goes to Auschwitz" - it sounds like a bad joke until you realize what it really is. --2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:EC2A:FDE3:9E53:A19B (talk) 03:12, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

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