Talk:Howard Webb

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Former good article nomineeHoward Webb was a Sports and recreation good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 15, 2011Good article nomineeNot listed
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on July 14, 2019, and July 14, 2021.

March 2007[edit]

Removed the following:

As this is not relevant. Many officials wear All black when the Goalkeepers do also.Statto74 10:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is relevant. The Laws of Association Football (Law 4) state that the kit colours of the officials must be distinguishable from all other players, including the goalkeepers. It is the referee's sole duty to ensure this, not the match assessor or home club/away club.

If necessary, the referee and his assistants change their coloured shirts to ones which do differentiate. Therefore, in the context of a biographical article such as this, it does become notable if the referee fails to carry out his duty (which unfortunately Howard did on this occasion).

However, I do admit that it is an ever-increasing sight to see goalkeepers' and officials' garb clashing so obviously!

By the way, Howard's three red cards in one match is not the same as a total of three red cards in all previous League Cup Finals - so both statistics should be quoted in the article. And trying to apply "relevance" to a section headed 'Trivia' is like stepping on quicksand. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 22:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevance![edit]

This NON information and has no relevance, if it did why wouldn't every instance in the Premiership be listed?

Law 4 states the goalkeeper must wear colours that distinguish him from other players and officials.

The LOAF also states that offensive, abusive or insulting language or gestures are sending off offences but you have failed to list every player that has sworn at Howard Webb that he has not dismissed!

I have also tidied up the scruffy use of the word "booking" and relaced it with "caution" as per Law 12 Fouls and misconduct.Statto74 14:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, I did not create the Howard Webb article, and have not expanded it by much - I have no wish to, as it seems fine to me in it's present form. It's not me who did the initial listings in the article.
Secondly, editors are free to add any instances of a referee's failure to carry out his basic pre-match or on-field duties that they see fit of course. But they haven't because it is really no big deal in the end. So I'm not bothering to get into a revert war with you over one paragraph of trivia.
As you quote:"Law 4 states the goalkeeper must wear colours that distinguish him from other players and officials." I did say before, it is Howard's duty to the FA to see that this is adhered to, no-one else's - my basic point as regards "relevance" in the first place.
As an ex-referee, I totally agree that the lingo should be "caution" and not "booking", just as "dismissal" should always replace "sending-off". As I say, I have not spent enough time around this article to have noticed the error.
By the way, thank you for not reverting the "three cards" issue (Carling Cup Final 2007). I hope you could see my point about that one. Cheers. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 22:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most goals in a Premiership game[edit]

Is this section relevant? The record has since been broken, and the result although witnessed by Webb was not something he, strictly speaking, played a part in as he was only an official in the match.

Fieldday-sunday (talk) 14:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. If you believe that anything in Wikipedia is wrong, then be bold and change it. Do be prepared for some opposition to your edits from time to time though.
Personally, I have always believed that many of the statistics included in certain articles constitute original research, as someone has to work them out. The section you are referring to has no direct reference for the information.
Best wishes. Ref (chew)(do) 21:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Repeated Polish vandalism of this article[edit]

For some reason, a very high number of Poles are repeatedly vandalising this article. Although I understand their disappointment with a very controversial penalty given by Webb, let's keep in mind that Webb also awarded Poland a goal that every commentator agrees should never have been allowed, as it followed an offside situation. So Webb made two controversial calls, one for each team, yet we have close to 100 vandalist actions from Poles and, as far as I've seen, not any from Austrians. Protecting this talk page may be an idea if this continues. JdeJ (talk) 10:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any from Austrians because you are happy that you have managed not too loose because of Howard Webb's help in 93 minute of match. Tha't penalty was not right and everbody could see it... That's all in this subject. T. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.198.250 (talk) 11:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I'm not Austrian. Never even been to Austria. And Webb's allowing a Polish goal that was offside is just as controversial as his awarding the penalty. Regardless of which, vandalism of Wikipedia is not justified by any of these actions. JdeJ (talk) 11:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you know Wikipedia rules so much you should know as well how to deal with Poles :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.198.250 (talk) 12:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I am from Poland, and have to agree with JdeJ,that Webb made controversial calls for both sides, tht is let's say: fair... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.15.161.130 (talk) 11:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply] 

    There was no offside. Check replays. 149.156.67.242 (talk) 12:07, 13 June 2008 (UTC)Rafau[reply]

So I can only add that he was wrong twice and it makes him even worse referee. All Euro 2008 Cup looses it's prestige because of situations like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.144.77.253 (talk) 11:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm from Poland too, and when we lost a goal vs Germany, which was offside too, no one was to blame arbiter, because things like this happen all the time. Few inches or cm-s left or right, what a difference? But giving penalty kick in 93 minute for foul which was not, is something quite different.

Of course he may be wrong the first time. But the second was clearly a conscious abuse. Beyond all doubt. The only question is his price. Such behaviour is an act of vandalism against football and sport at all. Such people should be kept away from such important sport events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.93.34.188 (talk) 11:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever ... it happened and he will not be reff'ing @ Euro again, not because of this penalty, but because he sucked most of the game. He made many unclear calls, including free kick for Austria on the side of the Polish pen. area, after no contact situation. He did everything in his power to help Austrians, and you have to be blind not to acknowledge it. Penalty was a result of BS call to repeat a free kick and sloppy play by Polish defender – and that is it. If Austria wins with Germany after some bad refereeing, we all will know that UEFA wants at least one host to be in Q.Finals.

BTW, goal for Poland might have been off-side, but he couldn’t see it clearly and it’s up to the damn line’s man, not him to determine that. Line’s man was “offside” himself, and that’s why he couldn’t see it clearly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.253.177.254 (talk) 12:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He punished Lewandowski for pulling Proedl shirt.. and in the same time he ignored Kienast who EARLIER was pushing Bak. If that's not controversial, then I don't know what is. And earlier he reprimended Lewandowski for nothing. Seems he confused Lewandowski with Bak (Bak earlier had a fight with one of Austrians), and then he thought Lewandowski is ignoring him... and got angry Szopen (talk) 11:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Get over it. All football fans have grievances against one referee or another, and repeatedly vandalising Wikipedia doesn't exactly attract sympathies for your cause. I have a grievance against Webb for his refereeing in the FA Cup semi-final between Chelsea and Villa, but I haven't wasted my time messing around with this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.42.30 (talk) 15:14, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

yeah, and you have your reflex too LOL get over it yourself dude, this discussion is some two years outdated, buahahaha.

POV-edits[edit]

The user Tmol42 seems to be of the opinion that only quoting the Polish coach is NPOV and that giving the opinions of both teams' head-coaches is POV and should be deleted. I fail to see why. A quote by the Polish coach taken from the Guardian and a quote by the Austrian coach taken from the BBC look pretty equal to me. I expect Tmol42 to explain why he is deleting this and calling it POV. JdeJ (talk) 11:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The citation used regarding the Polish Goal simply did not substantiate the statement attributed to the head coach and the previous edit was not deficient in this way hence the revert. The subsequent edit by User:Sir-Nobby has provided a NPOV approach which is also supported by the citation. I agree not providing an edit summary is frustrating which is why I provided as full an explanation as space allowed but do not assume because an editor deletes one version and not another that is somehow not NPOV assume good faith. Tmol42 (talk) 12:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agreed with JdeJ recent tagging of most controversial and as subsequent cites did not back this claim have removed this sentence. I also resequenced and revised the point about UEFA instruction to referees to improve flow. Hope this is OK with others Tmol42 (talk) 10:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ferguson rant[edit]

I've removed the following clause:

In November 2007, he was criticised by Manchester United manager Alex Ferguson for favouring Arsenal in the club's Premier League encounter. However, Ferguson also stated that he believed Webb had "a great chance to be the top referee".[1]

If we want to post every referee rant Ferguson, or other managers, makes we'll waste quite a few megabytes! --Stalfur (talk) 03:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Ferguson criticises referee Webb". BBC Sport. 3 November 2007. Retrieved 4 November 2007.

Eno[edit]

He looks like Brian Eno. Tsinfandel (talk) 17:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC) one has to remember that the quantity this match official awards to his beloved Manchester United. Look how many penalties he awards them compared to other teams, and how many controversial decisions he makes in their favour. It is to my and supporters of every other premiership club that this official is allowed to take charge of any game that Man U are involved in. I think Ryan Babals twitter image said it all for supporters of every club other than Man U. I always thought it was the crowd who were the 12th Man, but in Man U case if this guy is the match official then they certainly do have a 12th man! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.30.80.107 (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Awful Decision[edit]

I've removed this section for discussion.

I'm not familiar with the incident, but this section did nothing to help me.

The title of the section is a conclusion - not NPOV.

There are no references or citations.

If there's a real controversy about this, then surely that's how this should be written - as a controversy, with references for reliable, cited opinions on the incident, rather than a POV conclusion about it ? Also, I'm not sure how the fact that the players played for Australia, and one is without a club is related - unless we're implying that's a result of the incident ? Another question is whether all readers will understand "The Toon" without clarification ?

Here's how it read when I removed it:

Removed Section:

Awful Decision[edit]

On 16 May 2009 Howard refereed Newcastle United's last home match of the season against Fulham. The Toon lost 1-0 but the final score shoud have been 1-1, Mark Viduka's goal was disallowed for nothing but Howard said that Nolan fouled Fulham goalie Mark Schwarzer, this occured during a corner. Both Viduka and Schwarzer are Australian and played the Australian national football team at the time but Viduka is without a club at the moment.

- Begoon (talk) 06:40, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It clearly is opinionated commentry and uncited and written like a fanzine comment and should not have been in the bio, good removal. Off2riorob (talk) 10:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quick edit[edit]

Removed the link to his father Billy as the page didn't exist. Wookie Go Bye Bye (talk) 18:59, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Factual error[edit]

The following isn't true:

"To date, the only current England internationals he has dismissed are Peter Crouch when he was playing for Southampton against Crystal Palace on 7 May 2005[76] and Steven Gerrard of Liverpool in their FA Cup third round defeat to Manchester United on 9 January 2011.[77]"

Peter Crouch didn't make his England début until the 31st of May. Even if were including future internationals, it's still false since he's also sent off David Bentley.

Not a big deal, but it would be nice if someone could correct it.

Cheers,

92.2.196.130 (talk) 12:58, 12 January 2011 (UTC) Revz[reply]

It just seems like an irrelevant factoid anyways, he has only sent of one player from Chelsea but two from Nottingham - so? , I suggest we remove it. Off2riorob (talk) 13:01, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Demotion to Championship[edit]

I'm not the person to write it, mostly because I came to this page looking for information on the incident, but it seems absurd to me that this article makes no mention of Howard Webb being demoted from the Premiership for a game because of his calls in the Manchester v. Tottenham match after he was awarded the FA Cup final referee position. Surely that's a notable incident, given how often this particular individual is accused of bias? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.127.172 (talk) 20:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. All officials work some games in the Championship, simply because there are 10 (sometimes less) matches, and ~20 referees. It could be a true demotion, but more likely, his number was up. Possibly the Championship game assigned was a vital one, and they wanted a big name official working it. 70.78.18.253 (talk) 06:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of red cards and explanations[edit]

I have removed the list of every red card Webb has issued, detailing the player, team, minute issued and why. This seemed very excessive, and superfluous to the section "Card statistics" which clearly and sufficiently outlines how many yellows and reds he issued during each season. This list was also highly vulnerable to vandalism. Tbmurray (talk) 14:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Howard Webb/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BigDom 21:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will review the article now. BigDom 21:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    Spelling good, grammar average. Some of this is written in a journalistic style, rather than an encyclopaedic style.
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
    Lead section does not summarise the article per WP:LEAD and is not long enough. Layout is terrible, especially the completely unnecessary {{footballbox}} templates throughout the article, which clutter up the page and present no information that would be better written as prose. Text is full of words to watch; weasel words (e.g. "Respected analyst Alan Hansen", "by some pundits"), puffery ("salvaged a respectable draw", "As the criticism rolled in so did the praise", etc.). The table of cards per season uses italics in some columns for no apparent reason. Overlinking is rife throughout the article, as are extremely short paragraphs. Early life and Personal life should be merged into one section. Nothing to worry about with regards to fiction or lists.
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    Quite a few of the references have either not been formatted, or have been formatted inconsistently. A few of the citations lead to dead links (for example, refs 21 to 25, 27 and 28, 73 to 81 and probably more). Ref 44 does not back up its sentence.
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Many good reliable sources, including newspapers and well-known websites such as ESPN and BBC. However, ynwa.tv does not appear to be a reliable source and not sure about femalefirst.co.uk either. The "cards per season" table is not referenced so isn't verifiable.
    C. No original research:
    Looks ok, apart from the weasel words and unsourced material mentioned above
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    Contains all the sections that you would expect; his rise through the League system (although the information about his Northern Counties East League career is completely unsourced), the Champions League final, domestic cup finals and World Cup final.
    B. Focused:
    The article goes into ridiculous detail for some of the matches, listing twice the players who were booked/sent off (once in the template and then again in the accompanying text). Other problems include pointless trivia (the names of the goalkeepers sent off by Webb), and seemingly arbitrary inclusion criteria for "notable" matches.
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
    A whole section dedicated to criticisms of Webb hardly makes for an unbiased article. However, the rest is written in a good neutral tone.
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
    No edit wars as such, but there does seem to be a problem with editors adding information about a match that he/she considers notable, only for another editor to deem in non-notable and remove it soon afterwards.
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    Two pictures, both correctly licensed from Flickr
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
    Both images OK
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    Unfortunately there are just too many MoS and sourcing problems for the article to pass in its current state.

Red cards[edit]

Would there be sufficient interest in, and thus putting together, a table showing the teams with players which Webb has shown red cards to? I was asked recently (jokingly) whether he has ever dismissed a Man United player. The data from Soccerbase could be used as a reliable source for such info and the table could be formatted in such a way that it doesn't take up too much room. --TBM10 (talk) 00:04, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

interesting idea from Poll that Webb does "nothing" for his Brazil ticket...as explained here http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.php/articles.html/_/match-reports/1/chelsea-2-liverpool-1-dec-29-2013-r451 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ianx66 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request to correct error[edit]

Under the section "Cautions and dismissals" it reads:

"Webb has sent-off two goalkeepers since 2000-01: Kelvin Davis of Milton Keynes Dons in December 2001 and John Filan of Wigan Athletic in March 2004."

Kelvin Davis played for Wimbledon FC in 2001. Milton Keynes Dons FC did not exist until 2004. Please edit to reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FCSchadenfreude (talk • contribs) 04:54, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reporting the error. I have made the change and also modified the previous paragraph which referred to the same match. Keith D (talk) 13:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Visit to Fir Vale (School)[edit]

Should we mention his visit to Fir Vale School http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/council/education/former-referee-howard-webb-to-present-sheffield-school-awards-1-6905282 --88.111.129.157 (talk) 15:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2015[edit]

Rotherham is NOT in the West Riding of Yorkshire, it is in South Yorkshire. Please change this. The West Riding no longer exists. Proof? I live in Rotherham and all my letters are addressed to Rotherham, South Yorkshire. 2.99.141.240 (talk) 15:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: The date in question is 1971 when there was no South Yorkshire. South Yorkshire was created in 1974 so cannot apply to events before that date. Keith D (talk) 16:46, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Howard Webb/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

.
  1. Requires addition of further inline references using one of the {{Cite}} templates
  2. Switch existing references to use one of the {{Cite}} templates
  3. Requires copy edit for WP:MOS
Keith D (talk) 20:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 20:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 18:21, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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