Talk:Humpty Dumpty/Archive 1

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Removed link

Removed this:

For more information, try http://www.zelo.com/family/nursery/humpty.asp

to Talk because it only gives one of the many origin theories. Caltrop, 15:04, 13 February 2003.

Origin theories

So, I've been wondering: if Humpty Dumpty was originally a cannon or a king, why is he now an egg? There's nothing in the rhyme about him being an egg, except the fragility and maybe an allusion to roundness in the name. But it's not really obviously about some egg-man.

One person I asked about this suggested that it was a back-formation. In other words, long after people had forgotten the origin of the rhyme, they tried to figure out what it meant. It has the kind of nonsense form of an old riddle, and one solution to such a riddle would be "an egg" -- eggs are fragile and break when they fall.

The problem with this is that it's a really bad riddle. The riddleness is that eggs break and can't be reassembled -- so what? Most things can't be reassembled when broken. And you don't often keep eggs on high places, just for that reason!

Anyways, this started bothering me recently, and now I can't get it out of my head. Bleh. -- ESP 05:37 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it being a bad riddle is here or there. It's obvious to us, but wouldn't be if you didn't know. It's as bad as that one about the sunbeam "(some name, of the same form as 'humpty dumpty') on the king's kitchen door". Plus, I'm fairly sure there are versions of Humpty Dumpty in other languages taking very similar forms, but with different names. I'll have a look. Skittle 19:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Hickamore, Hackamore, on the King's kitchen door;
All the King's horses, and all the King's men,
Couldn't drive Hickamore, Hackamore,
Off the King's kitchen door
     From Squirrel Nutkin. Possibly invented by BP? Skittle 19:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that in its current form, the rhyme not a riddle at all. However, the riddle originally said "all the king's horses and all the king's men / couldn't put Humpty in his place again", which makes you think that Humpty must be quite heavy. The solution to the riddle comes when you realise that Humpty isn't heavy, he's just broken. Scientivore (talk) 10:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Fritzgerald Herring

Humpty Dumpty is in various "poems" from Fritzgerald Herring ( not spelt how i did) in the earlier rhyms it was allready established that he was an egg…

…however the final part of the rhyme is the bit that was remembered…

No-one has mentioned the most likely Civil War connection. This appears in the Richard Rodney Bennet musical, which goes by the title 'All the Kings Men'. In this Humpty Dumpty is a floating bridge, built across the River Severn by the Royalist Army. It sunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glyn powell (talk • contribs)

Testudo Theory

So I follow the link to testudo and find out that it is not a wheeled Roman war machine designed to cross moats and scale walls, but rather a shield formation for infantry (which is all I have ever known it to be). A few minutes of Googling leads me to believe that this roman war machine with the same name never in fact existed beyond the bound of HumpyDumptyology. Perhaps this theory should be removed on the suspicion that it is mistaken nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.174.158.42 (talk • contribs) 22:13, June 22, 2005

Woot! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.124.73.32 (talk • contribs) 08:53, November 10, 2005

How would horses have helped?

All the king's horses and all the king's men

What did they expect the horses to do? I doubt they would have helped much :/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.174.151 (talk • contribs) 00:16, December 2, 2005

There are, traditionally, two types of regiment in the British Army, Regiments of Foot (ie infantry), and The Cavalry, (AKA The Kings Horse). This would suggest that whatever humpty dumpty was originally, it was too badly damaged to be dragged by the Kings Horse from the field and repaired by the 'common soldiery', ie Engineers.~~Andy L~~

Colchester

Have added a verse to the "Colchester" part of the Origins section. I've unfortunately been unable to find a source for it online and it's mostly based on personal memories so may need to be removed unless someone can find a source; I felt it was relevant, though. --Black Butterfly 12:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed it as I could find no source. I also tried to put the Colchester myth to bed, which is well known to be false. But I am not optimistic as these urban legends never seem to die.--Sabrebd (talk) 07:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Application in cognitive science

It shouldn't be difficult to issue a couple of references, or two. User:Ejrrjs says What? 23:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Just another explanation

I've found this article - hope you can mention it in the main article of this site. [1] --129.13.186.2 23:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Definitely an Egg?

I read in The Pedant's Revolt (a book dedicated to correcting common misconceptions) that Humpty Dumpty was originally a cannon, and was first portrayed as an egg by Lewis Carol. This may or may not be true, but surely the very presence of unsureness flies in the face of the first section of the article, which says that the answer is not very well known and that he was definately an egg. Daniel (☎) 13:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree the article should be changed to state that Humpty Dumpty is often portrayed as an egg, but that there are other theories about the history of the rhyme (personally I believe the cannon story - but I'm probably biased living near Colchester). Certainly the sentence 'The fact that Humpty Dumpty is an egg' is far too strong and not a neural point of view (so I've toned that down). Ecrips 13:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I haven't read the Pedant's Revolt, but in my experience Pedants are as likely to commit errors as to uncover them. For what it's woth, the OED definition is:
A. n.
1. A drink made with ‘ale boiled with brandy’ (B.E. Dict. Cant. Crew, a1700).
1698 W. KING tr. Sorbière's Journ. Lond. 135 (Farmer) He answer'd me that he had a thousand such sort of liquors, as Humtie Dumtie, Three Threads. 1699 [see HUGMATEE]. 1837 DISRAELI Venetia I. xiv, They drank humpty-dumpty, which is ale boiled with brandy.
2. A short, dumpy, hump-shouldered person. In the well-known nursery rime or riddle (quoted below) commonly explained as signifying an egg (in reference to its shape); thence allusively used of persons or things which when once overthrown or shattered cannot be restored.
1785 GROSE Dict. Vulg. T., Humpty-Dumpty, a little humpty dumpty man or woman; a short clumsey person of either sex. 1810 Gammer Gurton's Garland Part III. 36 [Not in Ritson's ed. c1760, nor in the reprint of that in 1810] Humpty dumpty sate on a wall, Humpti dumpti had a great fall; Threescore men and threescore more, Cannot place Humpty dumpty as he was before. 1843 HALLIWELL Nursery Rhymes Eng. 113 [giving prec. version adds] Note. Sometimes the last two lines run as follows: All the king's horses and all the king's men, Could not set Humpty Dumpty up again. 1848 Blackw. Mag. July 39 To try the game of Humpty-Dumpty and to fall. 1872 ‘L. CARROLL’ Thro' Looking-Gl. vi. 114 ‘It's very provoking’, Humpty Dumpty said,..‘to be called an eggvery!’ 1883 J. W. SHERER At Home & in India 193 She..could not, by all the miracles of millinery, be made other than a humpty-dumpty. 1896 Westm. Gaz. 26 June 3/1 Now that the Education Humpty-Dumpty has tumbled off the wall, and is hopelessly poached for the present year, and all the king's horses and all the king's men can't set him up again, the life has gone out of Parliament.
(In the nursery rime or riddle there are numerous variations of the last two lines, e.g. ‘Not all the king's horses and all the king's men Could [can] set [put] Humpty Dumpty up again [in his place again, together again]’.)
B. adj. Short and fat. Also allusively referring to the Humpty-Dumpty of the nursery rime.
1785 [see A. 2]. 1828 Craven Dial., Humpty-dumpty, short and broad, ‘He's a lile humpty-dumpty fellow’. 1898 Westm. Gaz. 9 July 6/3 To set the humpty-dumpty conversion firmly on its legs.
b. Applied to a mechanical rhythm, as in the nursery rime.
1887 SAINTSBURY Hist. Elizab. Lit. iv. (1890) 128 The same humpty-dumpty measure of eights and sixes.
My recent edit links to false etymology; I have tried to avoid asserting that all the postulated theories are such; clearly, anyone believing one of them must agree that all the others are false. Thus I think the link is fair. jnestorius(talk) 19:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not convinced by your statement that the first printed form is a riddle - do you have any reference to back this up? The wording according to your OED quote 'Cannot place Humpty dumpty as he was before' seems to back the Colchester theory as the 'threescore men and threescore more' couldn't hoist the cannon back onto the wall. It is hard to see how this version of the rhyme could be a riddle about eggs! It would seem to be in this case that we should be careful not to make claims about it's origin but to simply discuss the possibilities. Oh, and I've no problem with the false etymology link - they can't all be right! Ecrips 09:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I have heard that the 1810 printing explicitly states that the rhyme is a riddle and the answer is that HD was an egg, but I don't have access to a copy of the book. As regards the threescore men bit: that's the point of the riddle. It takes a lot of men to haul a cannon, or any heavy object, but no amount of men can restore a smashed egg to its pristine state. And it would be nice to get an earliest recorded date for each of the other theories appearing in print; the more recent this is, the less plausible the explanation is. jnestorius(talk) 08:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Well http://www.msu.edu/~ereksonj/humpty/humpty.htm says that the 1810 printing "did not give the answer away in the book" and suggests that it is "plausible ... the rhyme was not a riddle". But obviously that's not very conclusive. The closest I could find online to the 1810 printing was http://www.presscom.co.uk/nursery/nrs_gg1.html (text version) which I'm guessing is what the OED describes as the 1810 reprint of Ritson's ed. c1760 - anyway it doesn't include Humpty Dumpty and states "Embellished with a variety of Cuts". It would be nice to know how it was presented in the original 1810 print - certainly in the version online there are pictures for almost every page and it would be interesting to know if there was a picture on the Humpty Dumpty page or not (and whether it was an egg!) Ecrips 11:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The Erekson paper is worth linking to, I think. jnestorius(talk) 12:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


I've removed the citation from the line:

The rhyme does not actually state that Humpty Dumpty is an egg.

I'm not sure the line really needs a citation, but even if it does http://axrealm.com/2009/06/humpty-dumpty-is-not-an-egg/ can't possibly be a reliable source.--Alexaxas (talk) 05:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

the surgery

Anyone know about the surgery known colloquially as the "humpty-dumpty"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike.lifeguard (talk • contribs) 02:21, November 3, 2006

Pickin' up the pieces

I've heard of an 1810 novel (I think), Gammer Gurton's Garland, in which Humpty is reassembled. Can anybody name the author & include it here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trekphiler (talk • contribs) 23:58, November 9, 2006

Mentally retarded boy?

The article lists the following as a possible "origin":

According to many legends, Humpty Dumpty was a mentally retarded child. The story states that this boy was sitting on a stone wall during the American Independence War and saw several soldiers marching along a pathway. Thinking that these soldiers were allies he shouted to them in greeting. Upon hearing "Soldiers soldiers!" the men shot at the boy with the reasoning that he was an enemy. Therefore, "Humpty Dumpty had a great fall" and he could not be saved from the injuries he received from that fall. The Mother Goose story was then written in rememberence for this boy but in a heartfelt gentle way in which no child reading the story would know the horrible truth.

I find this implausible in the extreme. Any supporting evidence for this story? Anyone got a cite? -- Narsil 01:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

And seeing no discussion, and no citations offered, I'm nuking it. -- Narsil 22:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Humpty Dumpty as a Tragic Hero

I remember seeing a video in English in which a college professor laid down the idea of the Humpty Dumpty rhyme as a tragedy and of Humpty Dumpty being an archetype of a tragic hero. Basically, the idea is this; why in the world is an egg sitting on a WALL? Why is it in such a place that it might be damaged? The answer is that Humpty Dumpty, like a tragic hero, has gone into the one situation that will lead to his downfall, and has done so willingly. Looking at Romeo and Juliet, the only people in the whole of Verona they cannot fall in love with each other, and they proceed to do that. From there on, a tragic hero tries to stay on top of the wall as long as possible and then falls.

While I can't source the video right now, I can source an .edu site which contains pretty much the same information.

http://nzr.mvnu.edu/faculty/trearick/english/rearick/introlit/RealEducation/Shakespeare.html#humpty display text

I can also, for whatever its worth (probably not much), link to a forum post.

http://mb.sparknotes.com/mb.epl?r=1&b=849&m=349115&f=1&t=139300 Jaimeastorga2000 07:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Swedish

Not sure if the name "Lille Trille" is commonly used for Humpty Dumpty in Sweden. I think "Klumpe Dumpe" is the name used. I'm going to change it to say only norwegian, unless someone objects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poposhka (talk • contribs) 19:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually i'm just going to change it, i'm sure i've never heard or seen that name being used in Swedish literature. --Popoi 19:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Humpty as a sinner

I heard once that the rhyme is a reference to every person who, in Christian theology, looses their white perfection after The Fall and even the greatest powers of the earth, the kind's army, cannot repair a person. Sorry I don't have a reference. --Ephilei (talk) 20:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum and carefull attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 17:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a mistake and have removed the tag.  --Lambiam 10:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Ricky Gervais routine

Ricky Gervais propagates the egg origin in his stand-up routine. Hilarious, http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=hYytaZ06Hco. Worth adding as an external link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.16.208.249 (talk • contribs) 07:43, January 17, 2009

Growing lyrics section

The Humpty Dumpty in rock lyrics section is now getting longer than the rest of the article. Do we need to have every lyric, or could we just list the songs and performers? It is starting to become bizzare. It would be odd if we gave every rock song that, for example, mentioned roses at the end of that article.--Sabrebd (talk) 06:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Unless there are reasoned objections, in the next few day I will reduce the lyrics section to references, as is usual in most articles of this type.--Sabrebd (talk) 09:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Ryhddle

what ryhmes with murderer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.116.5.235 (talk) 20:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Verderer? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.141 (talk) 02:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
If this were Facebook, I'd "like" that comment. —howcheng {chat} 16:24, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

All the King's Horse

Shouldn't some mention be made that the original line is "All the king's horse" not "All the king's horses"? "Horse" here refers to the king's cavalry troops, as "men" in the next line refers to his infantry troops.93.107.95.10 (talk) 22:35, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I am sure that you are correct, but do you have a reliable source for it? I cannot find one for that version.--SabreBD (talk) 22:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

No sources, I'm afraid, but I'm sure this is where the rhyme comes from. It's set during the English Civil War ...

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
a Royalist siege engine nicknamed "Humpty Dumpty" (it was awkward-looking and difficult to move: hump + dump) was advanced towards a besieged wall (of a castle or city) defended by Parliamentarian troops ...
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
the Parliamentarian defenders repulsed the siege engine so that it collapsed outside the walls ...
All the King's horse
And all the King's men
all the Royalist cavalry and infantry (that is, all the besieging army) ...
Couldn't put Humpty together again
they failed to re-erect the siege engine (with the intimation that the siege was thereafter lifted).

It was a Parliamentarian taunt to Royalist armies. I have searched the early 1900s Brewer, Partridge's Slang & Unconventional English, & the OED 2nd Edition. None of them, to my huge surprise, mentions this derivation. Yet it was common knowledge in my school years. Sometimes, things are too well known to need mentioning; and consequently, in later years, verification becomes difficult. So I note this here as a possible derivation, and as a hint for further research. And as a reminder to the younger editors here that knowledge has been passed on, generation to generation, with no awkward need for written confirmation. And consequently, of course, we got everything fu - well, you know. MacGilvennehy (talk) 23:33, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

As the article notes, the civil war cannon story is a hoax from 1956.--SabreBD (talk) 23:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Rude origin

One theory was that it originally a vulgar meaning (in the drinking/rugby song tradition) and was later sanitized as a children's rhyme. The great fall in question being the loss of a lady's 'honour' and after that the attentions of all the king's horses and men couldn't undo the act. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.93.229 (talk) 04:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for unmentionable or scandalous material. Ladies read it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.240.176.73 (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Revisionism and/or PC ('Political Correctness')

It was reported in the mass media (Channel 9 News, 16.30(AEDST) (05.30 UTC?) Edition, Sydney, Oztralia) today that in Britain someone is making the rhyme 'politically correct' by giving it a 'happy' ending.

In that "All the kings horses...", "..Made Humpty happy again". Don't have citeable sources yet. Add 'em if you've get 'em.

This may not be for inclusion on this article, may be good for one on 'Political Correctness'

--220.101.28.25 (talk) 06:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


The Sun is getting worked up about the "sanitisation" of the rhyme on the programme Something Special - it's also caught the attention of The Register.

However, a quick search of the BBC's website quickly reveals the traditional version on the Teletubbies subsite, and a significantly expanded version on The Tweenies subsite. The BBC's reasoning is that it's simply a creative edit... Mittfh (talk) 10:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Altered versions usually turn out to be creative variations and not political correctness.--SabreBD (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Found a source! October 23, 2009, 5:09 pm:"In the United Kingdom, the BBC is under fire for rewriting Humpty Dumpty to give it a happy ending on the CBeebies children's program Something Special." as reported here, au.news.yahoo.com
Not too much creativity there, in my opinion. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Here's another one from earlier this year, Britain again! The Sun
Mittfh, your links don't seem to work 220.101.28.25 (talk) 09:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Here's a working link "BBC under fire after rewriting nursery rhyme Humpty Dumpty | The Sun |News" Old Humpty is dumpty for a happy ending BRIAN FLYNN Published: 19th October 2009 0 THE BBC was under fire last night after rewriting nursery rhyme Humpty Dumpty — to give it a happy ending. The words were sanitised for a CBeebies kids’ show. Instead of the old version: “Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the king’s horses and all the king’s men Couldn’t put Humpty together again” The last line becomes: “Made Humpty Dumpty happy again.” Labour MP Tom Harris watched the show — called Something Special — with his sons aged three and five. He said: “For goodness sake. Kids should be exposed to real life a bit, not cosseted away. “We need to stop this moronic activity. “Let them see colourful and violent cartoons, and let them be children.” Emotions The Glasgow South MP said he had also seen Little Miss Muffet changed on the channel so she made friends with the spider rather than fled. Language expert Lynne Truss accused the Beeb of trying to shield children from real emotions. She added: “I was terrified by all these things when I was a child and it didn’t do me harm.” And chairman of The Campaign for Real Education Nick Seaton said: “Nursery rhymes are a gentle way to ease children into the real world. “Children are being told everything is rosy and aren’t being raised to confront problems.” But a BBC spokeswoman said: “The small change to Humpty Dumpty was for no other reason than being creative and entertaining.” --Kai Carver (talk) 23:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Humpty Dumpty in Popular Culture: Suggested Additions

In the FABLES comic book series spin-off JACK OF THE FABLES under DC's Vertigo Comics label, throughout issues 17 - 21 he is put together again and featured heavily as a pivotal character and acts as Jack Horner's guide and map through the areas of Americana to find a hidden treasure. FABLES and JACK OF THE FABLES are written by Bill Willingham and as of 2008 have won at least 12 Eisner Awards and has ranked consistently in critical and popular comics since its inception. Please consider adding this and the following picture to the article.

http://www.midtowncomics.com/images/PRODUCT/FUL/826079_ful.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_(comic)#Awards_and_praise

TorgoSensation (talk) 03:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

On the educational TV show The Electric Company, in the recurring segment "A very short book", there was a spoof that went "Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the king's horses and all the king's men had eggs for breakfast." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.148.210.20 (talk) 19:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

A "Far Side" cartoon by Gary Larson depicts one of the king's horses remonstrating with a military officer over the remains of Humpty Dumpty, with the caption "You guys have had enough time. The horses want another shot at it." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.148.210.20 (talk) 13:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

There's an Aimee Mann song called Humpty Dumpty, which I think should be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.82.199 (talk) 08:11, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Origins

The paragraph beginning "There are also various theories..." needs looking at. Somewhere in recent edits, it has lost the key point that the Professor David Daube siege engine theory was a spoof. See The BS Historian [2] 86.172.140.224 (talk) 01:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

From memory, although the BS Historian site suggested the story was a spoof the other more academic sources indicated that he was serious, so I moved this towards more neutral language. I will go back to the other sources and check them again, as my memory may be faulty.--SabreBD (talk) 07:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I've added references to various appraisals of Daube's theory, from "widely acclaimed" to "spoof", and removed the {{Disputed-section}} tag.  --Lambiam 12:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Cardinal Wolsey

I'm astonished that there's no mention of the only version of the origin of this rhyme that I've ever heard - that it relates to the fall of Cardinal Wolsey, following his failure to obtain a divorce for Henry VIII:

See http://megj30.tripod.com/CardinalWolseyindex.html http://www.nursery-rhymes.org/nursery-rhymes/humpty-dumpty.html http://www.websters-dictionary-online.com/definitions/humpty%20dumpty?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=humpty%20dumpty&sa=Search#906 Nickorando (talk) 23:28, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

It is fine for this to go in if there is a reliable source, but unfortunately none of these are. The last one is just a mirror of an old version of this article.

Early Modern English - grammar

Humpty Dumpty sate [sic] on a wall,

I'm a little confused about the indication of [sic] following "sate" ...

Is this a denotation that "sate" is grammatically incorrect? It is the archaic form of sat, after all. Maybe I misunderstand the contextual applications of [sic]. 70.153.112.82 (talk) 23:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Sic means something is "wrong" in the quotation, in this case non-standard early modern English. However, where we quote an original version we don't change it in case some meaning or context is lost.--SabreBD (talk) 00:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
From our article on sic: "A sic may show that an uncommon or archaic usage is reported faithfully." Jujutacular talk 01:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Denslow's Humpty Dumpty 1904.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Denslow's Humpty Dumpty 1904.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on March 23, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-03-23. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! —howcheng {chat} 08:15, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Humpty Dumpty by W. W. Denslow
An illustration of Humpty Dumpty by American artist William Wallace Denslow, depicting the title character from the nursery rhyme of the same name. He is typically portrayed as an egg, although the rhyme never explicitly states that he is, possibly because it may have been originally posed as a riddle. The earliest known version is in a manuscript addition to a copy of Mother Goose's Melody published in 1803.Restoration: Jujutacular
Archive – More featured pictures...

About that information box down there...

Way at the bottom of the article, there's an information box. I noticed that Humpty Dumpty's name isn't in bold like other characters from Alice in Wonderland.

Was this deliberate or not? (Because in any case, I don't know how to fix it.) FaeriMagic (talk) 00:05, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Humpty Dumpty/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Thine Antique Pen (talk · contribs) 19:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

  • Lede
Just a suggestion, there is a reference in the lead. Remove this and summarise it in the article, as the lede is meant to summarise the article.
  • Lyrics and melody
Up to GA standard, however converting the quote to {{cquote}} can help with presentation. Not required though.
  • Origins
I like this section, very detailed. Is referenced well and citations are filled in fully
  • Meaning
Detailed and cited well. Quite a big final paragraph, but that's fine!
  • In Through the Looking-Glass
Referenced well, good quotes and content.
  • Other appearances in fiction and popular culture

This section summarises quite a bit of the lede, which is fine! Cited well.

Right then, review done. I'll pass this as the article is in good shape, although there are some non-required things I listed above to improve presentation.

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Grand job! ⇒TAP 19:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Dr. Arnold's New Juvenile Amusements

I wonder if the below advertisement could be referring to a publication earlier than the 1803 date given in the article of the Humpty Dumpty rhyme?

I find an advertisement in the April 12, 1799 edition of "The True Briton", page 1, which says:

Dr. Arnold's New Juvenile Amusements
This Day are published, for the Year 1799
1. Upon Chichester, Ch. Top.
2. See Saw, Margery Daw.
3. Humpty Dumpty.
4. Fee Fa Fum.
5. Old Mother Hubbard.
6. Hark, the Dogs do Bark.
7. Little Jenny Wren.
8. A great Jack Daw.
9. Heigh Ho ! Who's above?
10. Peter Piper pick'd a Peck of Pepper.
11. Come sit on my Knee.
12. Swing Swong, the Days are long.
To be had of the Author, Duke-street,Westminster, and
at all the Music Shops.
Kaltenmeyer (talk) 04:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Quite possibly. A complication may be Wikipedia's dislike of primary sources. Was the source for this the original book? I notice that the British Library has what may be a copy of this bound in another volume and watermarked 1797 (see here). So it may be a little earlier than the advert. However, this was probably sheet music and without a copy it is hard to know if it had lyrics. Usually Arnold just gave tunes, although that itself if interesting. I am still looking into this, thanks for raising the point.--SabreBD (talk) 07:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I managed to resolve this. The Opie's must have found this and put it in the later additions of their dictionary. I didn't spot it because I was relying on the 1951 version. So thanks again for bringing this here.--SabreBD (talk) 12:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Marshall McLuhan: Understanding Media

Wouldn't it be worth mentioning that Marshall McLuhan takes Humpty-Dumpty as an example to illustrate his theories on "Understanding Media" in its chapter 19 about "Wheel, Bicycle, and Airplane" (pp. 199 - 200)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.190.45.71 (talk) 21:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

It might well be worth a well sourced sentence, given that he was a major thinker.--SabreBD (talk) 21:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Suggested external link

This is a visualisation of the first verse in Poem Viewer: an interactive tool from Oxford University that graphs the rhymes, consonance/assonance, and other properties of text. MartinPoulter Jisc (talk) 11:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Glue

Has anyone considered the possibility that the horses are a direct reference to the use of horse hooves to make glue? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.89.144.110 (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

No. Never ever. Well until I read that. Otherwise no one has. Ever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.47.134 (talk) 20:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Needs clarification

The section "Origins" refers to the rhyme as a riddle, yet that theory is only introduced in the next section so I did not understand what it was talking about. Also, it should be the general "rhyme" because it says there are other theories too.Bobjohnson111980 (talk) 06:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Entropy can increase

Either the sentence in the In science section ending "...as the entropy of an isolated system never decreases" must be modified or the first citation following ( Chang, Kenneth (2002-07-30). Humpty Dumpty Restored: When Disorder Lurches Into Order. The New York Times. Retrieved 2013-05-02.) has to be removed as this article is explicitly about a case where entropy does increase. Wellset (talk) 16:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I assume you meant to say that the article is about a case where entropy does decrease. Anyway, yes it's a little bit odd. Although there is this bit from the article: "Over longer periods of time or if the laser power was turned up, the effect disappeared. 'You cannot get perpetual motion machines,' Dr. Sevick said. 'You always get back to the second law.'". So I'm not sure that the article is trying to overturn the second law of thermodynamics or anything. It is an article from the New York Times, at any rate, not a scientific journal. I think the important point from the article is that it links the idea of Humpty Dumpty to the law. However, we do already have two other scientific articles making this link so I wouldn't have any problem with removing the NYT citation. Jujutacular (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Connection to the magazine

I added a section about the character appearing regularly in the children's magazine, which I think is notable, but it was reverted. I disagree with this, but will hold off on an edit war and see if there's any consensus here. Joule36e5 (talk) 02:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this here. It seems unlikely to be worthy of a whole section, but it might be worth a mention in the popular culture section. Ideally this would be from third party sources that mention the magazine and demonstrate its notability. It would also help if the wording from the source indicated some kind of importance, such as a long run or high sales, although that may not be possible.--SabreBD (talk) 07:33, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Meter

Attention please!

I have no idea how to edit wikipedia and i don't want to mess the page up - but if anyone reads this, the poem is not written in a trochaic meter, it's not even close. The first four syllables of lines one and two are trochees, the rest of the poem is made up of dactyls (a stressed syllable followed by two unstressed) with a masculine ending to the line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.26.172 (talk) 08:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

(Moved new section to end of page and fixed section header) Joule36e5 (talk) 20:17, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Humpty Dumpty/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I've heard that "Humpty Dumpty" refers to the Roman Empire in Britain. This makes sense to me. I speculate that the term "Humpty Dumpty" might have originated in Britain as the locals' mockery of an occupying Roman legionares' marching cadence--one can hear them laughing as they mimic "hump-de-dump". Specifically, Hadrian's Wall could be interpreted as the "wall" the Roman Empire "sat on". The Roman Empire certainly "had a great fall". All of the king's horses and men:"king" could be seen as Charlemagne, or various Kings of England/Western Europe. Can someone point to a basis in fact which proves this explanation wrong?

Last edited at 10:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 18:28, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

French

I am a French native speaker and there are some facts that I've found strange in this article.

Firstly, I've never heard of a similar riddle named "Boule Boule". I did a quick Google search that didn't come with anything related to Humpty Dumpty. I don't say that it doesn't exist, but I wouldn't mention it in the article because I don't think it is famous enough in the French-speaking world to be mentionned.

Thanks; I've recast this to allow for the obscurity of the foreign versions. jnestorius(talk) 12:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, the "phonetic variation" of near-sounding French words doesn't sound at all like the original rhyme (atleast if the original rhymes is pronounced properly). It could sound a little like the original rhyme if it is pronounced with an exagerated French accent. Even with the exagerated accent, there is no way Anal deux qui noeuds ours, anal deux qui noeuds s'y mènent would sound like All the king's horses and all the king's men. Also, the translation is quite strange. The last two verses are so grammatically incorrect in French that I don't think someone could make sense of it and translate it (except maybe a computer)!

(en anglais on dit Last 2 lines, not verses.) The English retranslation makes clear the nonsensicality of the French "original". I get the impression the French version is intended to be spoken by a native English speaker with some knowledge of French, rather than a native French speaker. That said, I would like to see an experiment with a French speaker reciting it to an anglophone audience, to see if they "get" it: does anyone know if this has ever been done? jnestorius(talk) 12:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually even in English a verse is a line of poetry... but many people use it to mean a stanza. Would this version be better? I am not sure about the copyright.

Un petit d'un petit S'étonne au hall Un petit d'un petit Ah! degrés de folles Un dol de qui ne sort cesse Un dol de qui ne se mène Qu'importe un petit d'un petit Tout Gai de Reguennes

Would it be possible for someone who speaks French to record either the version above or the one in the article now and upload it? (For the technical side of how to upload it, I'm not exactly sure how to get it in the Commons (or wherever it's supposed to go), but it should be uploaded as an ogg vorbis file. Perhaps someone can explain better.) I have enough of an understanding of basic French pronunciation to appreciate it, but it would be interesting to hear a Francophone speaking it...
Also, what are the rules about editing talk pages? The unsigned edit above with the alternate version has single carriage returns in the Edit:Talk page, but they don't show up in the saved Talk page. Is it not wiki-kosher to fix it so it displays properly? cluth 17:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Do we have a reliable source for the use of a pseudo-French version in linguistic research? The source used here ends with "This article is from Wikipedia." and is presumably a copypaste of an old version of this article. Given that an internet search for "Homme petit d'homme petit..." turns up only a handful of forum conversations and zero reliable sources, I've cut it for now. --McGeddon (talk) 15:51, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

And ah, it looks like Luis d'Antin van Rooten's Mots d'Heures includes "Un petit d'un petit...", but there's nothing to suggest any scientific usage of it. I'll mention it in "pop culture". --McGeddon (talk) 15:56, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

As an Egg

¶ We are all familiar with Humpty Dumpty as a giant talking egg, from Lewis Carroll and animated cartoons. But, compared to the origin of the poem, when was the image of the egg first attached to the story? I am curious as to non-egg portrayals of Humpty, either pre-Lewis Carroll or recent. Sussmanbern (talk) 04:07, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Trump deletion

Let’s not pollute this article with politics (or for that matter, links on a nursery rhyme article to articles that use words involving genitalia). Besides, blogs, off-hand insults, are not enough for inclusion of material for a WP:BLP, and you must show a substantial use of such terminology over a period of time in many WP:RS. Objective3000 (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Sorry but when are the New York Times and National Post not reliable sources, and are we deleting material simply because it's political? This "use in popular culture" is as relevant or moreso, than the info about TurboTax, etc. Keizers (talk) 20:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Oomba Baroomba

Recently, User talk:Objective3000 removed content regarding Play School’s use added by User talk:20gz, based on the belief that the content was not notable. I disagree with User talk:Objective3000. Thoughts? XP-93 (talk) 02:31, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2018

I wish to add this statement to the humpty dumpty article "Humpty Dumpty seems like a normal story to tell children. But it’s not. The truth about Humpty Dumpty is much more gruesome. When King Charles I of England ascended to the throne, he did something that very much offended his protestant subjects by marrying a catholic french princess. But this was just the beginning! When the protestants in the parliament opposed him, he dissolved the parliament! In 1629, he decided to just rule without it! These actions caused the first of many civil wars in England. A battle raged between the monarchs and the protestants. Finally, King Charles surrendered and was forced to appear in court controlled by his enemies. He was accused of treason and sentenced to death by public execution. In 1649 he was beheaded and the monarchy was gone. So how does this connect to humpty dumpty? Well let me read the poem aloud. ”Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again.” The first line, “Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall”, probably refers to King Charles I sitting on his throne. The second line “Humpty Dumpty had a great fall” is talking about the civil war that he caused. And the third line “All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again” means that after he was executed there was no way for the to put the pieces back together. Now why would they guise this insult to the dead king in a nursery rhyme? The answer is clear. Back in the sixteenth century, if you insulted the monarch you could get up to 5 years in jail!" Therussiandalek (talk) 22:58, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 23:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2020

"Cannot place Humpty dumpty as he was before"

Please add another [sic] after "dumpty", as it looks like someone made a mistake when writing this part of the article, but the mistake is actually in the source. 208.95.49.53 (talk) 19:17, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

  •  Partly done: I dunno. Sic can mean correct for its time. But, seems silly to sprinkle a lot of sics into something that was clearly written when language was different or stylized by the writer. I think they should all be removed; but would be interested in other opinions. Meanwhile, I've placed one sic after the entire text and removed two instead of having three inside. O3000 (talk) 20:10, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
  • User:Objective3000, I think it's a bad idea to have the two "sic"s without the third one: it makes it look like we made a mistake with "dumpty" since we were careful to mark the other items. I think your change is an improvement, and your suggestions are probably even better. Dropping all of the sics isn't a bad idea, since it's unlikely that a Wikipedia editor made a lot of transcription mistakes, and people will think that it was originally written this way. I don't think [sic] at the end is the best idea, since it works better if it's immediately after something that's wrong. Maybe you could add a footnote saying "Spelling and capitalization are as in the original" or add a small note just below the quote? 208.95.49.53 (talk) 13:10, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
  • PS, thank you! 208.95.49.53 (talk) 13:13, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Most style guides tend to go for sic after each error when there are multiple, or a statement before or after the entire quote. The Chicago manual says don't use for unconventional spellings. MOS:SIC gives little guidance. O3000 (talk) 13:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
I changed it to a prefatory note. O3000 (talk) 13:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
I like the way you rendered it. Thank you. 208.95.49.53 (talk) 18:19, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

-- This may be a "Good Article" but surely the following needs some adjusting? Under the Science section it says: "Humpty Dumpty has been used to demonstrate the second law of thermodynamics. The law describes a process known as entropy, a measure of the number of specific ways in which a system may be arranged, often taken to be a measure of "disorder"."

But is not entropy itself a property, not a "process"? Following the associated Wikipedia link to entropy agrees with this. 31.125.76.2 (talk) 16:36, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2020

Add the book Humpty Dumpty in Oakland by Philip K. Dick to the list of literary works rferencing Humpty Dumpty. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty_in_Oakland 68.98.183.232 (talk) 00:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. I just trimmed that section way down per WP:IPC. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 01:14, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

In popular culture: Beastie Boys' revamp

Would be good to mention Beastie Boys' version in "eggman" (Album: Paul's Boutique, 1989)

"Humpty Dumpty was a big fat egg He was playing the wall, then he broke his leg Tossed it out the window, three minutes hot Hit the Rastaman, he said, (Bloodclot!)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebhaye (talk • contribs) 12:07, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2021

Second last Line on the first paragraph, there’s missing a ‘ in “it’s” DonBananMike (talk) 10:38, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: “Its” is correct; “it’s” means “it is”, whereas “its” is the possessive adjective. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 11:11, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
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