Talk:Ibn al-Athir/Archive 1

Archive 1

Rus section

I will revert to the previous version, since the "rus" thingy is described in the book. Ie, that part will not be removed, it is merly duplicated in the appropriated article. --Striver 02:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

rv

Bro, all the names in the intro is of no real help for most readers, lets spare them going through it and give it it's own section --Striver - talk 04:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It is common practice on Wikipedia to have the full name go first, see Mark Twain for example:

Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30 1835 – April 21 1910), better known by the pen name Mark Twain, was an American humorist, satirist, writer, and lecturer. Twain is most noted for his novels Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and The Adventures of Tom Sawyer (amongst other works), and his numerous quotes and sayings.

It's easier for readers to have the full name up at the top. Secondly, the fact that he is Kurdish is still unsourced, so please don't remove the {{fact}} tag. Khoikhoi 05:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, if it was only

• better known by the pen name Mark Twain

i would agree, but it is:

• (Ali, the father of Hasan and son of Muhammad who was the son of Muhammad) better known as Ali 'izz al-Din Ibn al- Athir al-Jazari (Ali, height of belief, son of Athir, from Jazar )

See the difference? Sorry for removing the tag. --Striver - talk 20:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess your concern is that the names are too long. So, I have turned the translations into footnotes. How's that? Khoikhoi 03:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not necessary to translate all the words in his name, anyway. It's his name, not a bunch of random words. My name is not "man overseer", even if that is what the words mean. Adam Bishop 09:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

References

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- KGV (Talk) 08:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

"jinns" vs. "two kinds" -- that's a very intriguing, and potentially very funny mistranslation, Mustafaa, can you elaborate? I just found this on the net somewhere. It could be interesting to see where the mistake originated. dab (ᛏ) 22:02, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I redirected this page for two reasons:

1: The name is not good enough, Ibn Athir is a family name, so the specifire "Ali" is required. Therefore, i moved it to Ali ibn al-Athir. The "Rus" section is moved to the book about it, Al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh. --Striver 11:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, this isn't the "Ibn Athir" page. "Ibn al-Athir" is what he is called in English. If this name isn't good enough, why do you want "Ibn al-Athir" to redirect to "Ali ibn al-Athir" instead of "Ibn Athir"? But that's not even the problem, the problem is that you created a new page and manually moved everything, thus destroying the history of this much older page. If you prefer, we can delete your page and move this one properly, but I don't see why that is necessary, since this is his usual name in English. I'm reverting it back. Adam Bishop 16:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, lets move this to delet this and move it properly. It is necessary since "Ibn al-Athir" means "Son of the Athir", and he had several brothers. "Ali ibn al-Athir" means "Ali, son of the Athir". Ill move the content of the other article here and will await your move to that title. A redirect will make sure nobody misses the article. --Striver 01:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, it is moved. Thanks. Adam Bishop 01:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, great, that is dealt with then

Kurdish?

He is sometimes considered kurdish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sehzades (talk • contribs) 23:33, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Translations

It should be mentioned that there are translations into English by D.S. Richards (Annals of the Saljuk Turks, London 2002, and The Chronicle of Ibn al-Athir for the Crusading Period from al-Kamil fil-ta'rikh, Aldershot 2006-8). One is mentioned in the article The Complete History but I think it should be mentioned here too. Think of the reader. --R. la Rue (talk) 23:12, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

Is "sometimes considered Kurdish" good enough to identify this family ethnically? Many converts to Islam were being made among Syriac speaking Christians during these early centuries. This family's erudition would place them in the ranks of those who, in the "golden age" of transmission of knowledge from Greek and Syriac sources into Arabic, had received generations of sound scholarly training in a Syriac or Greek milieu. His base in the area of Mosul confirms this as well. Rethink the ethnic label tempting though it may be to assess ethnicity on the basis of current human geography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yohannan123 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I give doubt that Al-Athir is Kurdish, Athir seems similar in etymology with Athur, the Aramaic word for Assyria; it also does not make sense that a Kurd takes an Arabic title "Al-" with an Aramaic name "Athir"; if anything, he's more likely Arab than Kurd, as there wasn't many Kurds in Jazeera during his time period. ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 01:13, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

al athir was a Kurd not Arab

Ali ibn el-Esir veya Ali ibn al-aşir, İbn Esir ailesinden üç erkek kardeşlerden ortancasıdır. Tam ismi (ʿAlī ibn Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Karīm ibn ʿAbd al-Wāḥid al-Ǧazarī aš-Šaibānī) 1160 ile 1233 yılları arasında yaşamış olan ʿIzz ad-Dīn önemli bir müslüman Kürt[1] [2] ortaçağ sonrası tarihçisidir(turkish Wikipedia) http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_ibn_el-Esir Deniz21 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.219.172.212 (talk) 10:27, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

There is no source/article/evidence that says he was Kurd or Arab or anything, the only thing we all know is that he was Muslim. ܐܵܬܘܿܪܵܝܵܐ 16:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

aš-Šaibānī means one of the Arab tribe Banu Shayban (descendant or related to Shaiban, son of Bakr ibn Wael), who have been living in the area for centuries before the arrival of Kurds. As said in a previous comment, you can't assess ethnicity on the basis of current human geography. We all know that the presence of Kurds in that area is relatively recent, as they moved west and southwest from their Mountain areas in Zagros and Van areas. Upper Mesopotamia areas were inhabited by Syriac people and later on by Arabs. I hope this helps. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, he, or anybody else for that matter, never mentioned his ancestry, but the Kurds' presence in that area is in no way recent. He hailed from a region he himself called Zawzan (or Zuzan) al-Akrad (Summer pastures of the Kurds), which was inhabited by Kurds and Armenians. Since the latter weren't muslims, him being Kurdish is not unlikely.

Yes, historical writers used not to talk about their ancestry. However, the word a-Shaybani in his name clearly refers to the name of the famous and powerful tribe Shayban (شيبان), (son of Bakr ibn Wael), who settled in the area since the 7th century. The city and area of Diyarbakır was named after Banu Bakr. As for the history of the Kurdish presence in the area, may be you should read Dawn Chatty's work Displacement and Dispossession in the Modern Middle East. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure that's his name? I can't seem to find any sources that a-Shaybani is part of it. In 'The Chronicle of ibn al-Athir for the Crusading Period from Al-kamil Fi'l-ta'rikh' his full name is recorded as 'Izz al-Din Abu'l-Hasan 'Ali ibn Muhammad al-Jazari'.

By the way, your source doesn't seem to make mention of the dispersion of the Kurds during the Middle Ages. Perhaps you should read '« territoire tribal des Kurdes » et l’aire iraqienne (xe-xiiie siècles) : Esquisse des recompositions spatiales' by Boris James. In it, the following is said:

"Pour Ibn al-Athîr, lui-même originaire de Jazîrat Ibn ‘Umar (dans le Zûzân), l’élément kurde est donc dominant dans cette région, contrairement à ce qu’indique Yâqût (m. 1229). C’est pourquoi il la qualifie par ailleurs de Zûzân al-akrâd (Zûzân des Kurdes) (Ibn al-Athîr : x/136)."

Which means:

"For Ibn al-Athir, himself originating from the Jazirat Ibn 'Umar (in the Zuzan), the Kurdish element is dominant in that region, contrary to what Yaqut indicates (d. 1229). This is why he calls the area Zuzal al-Akrad (Zuzan of the Kurds) (Ibn al-Athir: x/136)." Znertu (talk) 09:43, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Arab

To all Kurdish nationalists please read the whole name of al-Athir.. As you may see there stands also "Shaybani"... This means he is from the arab tribe of Banu Shayban--2003:43:4F4C:2446:A4D3:117D:5005:3804 (talk) 14:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

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Need quotes from source

@عمرو بن كلثوم:

From:

• The Bakr B. Wā'il Tribes and Politics in Northeastern Arabia on the Eve of Islam. Studia Islamica, no. 51, 1980, pp. 5–38.
  

I would like to see the quote and exact page number for Ibn al-Athir belonged to the large and influential Arab tribe Banu Bakr.
Also:

• The Bakr B. Wā'il Tribes and Politics in Northeastern Arabia on the Eve of Islam. Studia Islamica, no. 51, 1980, pp. 5–38.
  

I would like to see the quote and exact page number for who lived across upper Mesopotamia, and gave their name to the city of Diyar Bakr.
Thanks.--Kansas Bear (talk) 07:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I'll get back to you on this. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Kansas Bear: I got the paper and can't find the exact quotes requested. Instead, it provides the genealogy of the Shayban ibn Tha'laba lineage with the Banu Bakr. I have clarified the sentence to reflect this. May be it's time to work on the ethnicity given the genealogical evidence. The introduction of one of his brother Majd ad-Din's books provides the genealogy of the family] clearly showing his Arab ancestry and talks about their connections, properties and wealth. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:30, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Template: left to right, etc.

Smb. pls. fix the lead template (Arabic name mixes with life years, these run right-to-left...) Arminden (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Ethnicity-related categories

Since his ethnicity is disputed, one should consider removing the categories that ascertains his ethnic background. --Semsûrî (talk) 14:41, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Given the clear Arab lineage of his family and that being a clear part of his name, it is about time to remove the two sources claiming a Kurdish ethnicity, as it is clearly a superimposition of modern day demographics by non-historians. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:11, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Read his name Abu al-Hassan Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Muhammad ash-Shaybani, ash-Shaybani is an Arab tribe Zezzoo24 (talk) 17:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

About the origin of Ibn Al-Athir

His name is Abu al-Hassan Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Muhammad ash-Shaybani, ash-Shaybani is a name of Arabian tribal, and also Inb Al-Athir wrote in his book that he is an Arab from Baker bun Wa’l tribe, thank you. Zezzoo24 (talk) 17:19, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

The first argument is a deduction, and Wikipedia editors don't get to make deductions, particularly when a source is cited saying something differently. Also, direct (sometimes remote) male lineage is not the same thing as ethnicity, which encompasses someone's entire pedigree, and even to an extent their non-genealogical identity. As to what you say he wrote in his book, do you have a secondary source that provides this, or even better, one that actually directly addresses the conflicting claims and reaches a conclusion? The best way to address this when there are conflicting sources is to set them in opposition rather than just declare one of them right and delete the other, unless there is an established scholarly consensus (and even that does not necessarily allow for completely ignoring the minority position if it is found frequently). More importantly, is his ethnicity even an important aspect of his identity that needs to be mentioned, or is this just something for rabid nationalists and Wikipedia editors to fight over? Are there sources that give it substantial discussion, that associate his actions or his writings with his ethnic identity, or do those that mention it just do so in passing? Do we need to give his ethnicity at all? Just look up this Talk page and you will see that this question has already engendered more discussion than it is probably worth. Agricolae (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)