Talk:Isildur

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 00:37, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Improved to Good Article status by Chiswick Chap (talk). Nominated by LordPeterII (talk) at 10:32, 6 September 2022 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - It doesn't meet the citation placement requirement of WP:DYKCRIT 3b, which states that Each fact in the hook must be supported in the article by at least one inline citation to a reliable source, appearing no later than the end of the sentence(s) offering that fact. Citations at the end of the paragraph are not sufficient. This rule applies even when a citation would not be required for the purposes of the article. I have also not been able to access the source and would therefore have to take it on WP:Good faith that it checks out—but that's not a problem, because I will.
  • Interesting: No - In principle yes (though I agree that the phrasing could be improved), but see below.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: The article was promoted to WP:Good article status on 3 September, and is well beyond the required minimum length. All sources are, as far as I can tell, reliable for the material they are cited for, and spotchecking them reveals no obvious disqualifying issues. Earwig reveals no copyvio and I didn't spot any instances of unacceptably WP:Close paraphrasing. There are no obvious neutrality issues.

QPQ has been done. That being said, there are a few things I would like to see addressed:

  • This set the stage for the Ring to pass to Gollum and then to Bilbo, as told in The Hobbit; that in turn provided the central theme for The Lord of the Rings. – the second half is, I feel, not very clear unless one is already familiar with Tolkien's works.
  • Added a brief gloss. Both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are wikilinked in this sentence, and the linked articles provide both summaries and extensive details as the reader may desire. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a map or two would be very helpful to readers.
  • Added; this is however nothing to do with either DYK or GA requirements. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • When Númenor was destroyed by Ilúvatar Elendil's family escaped in nine ships. – It should be briefly explained who Ilúvatar is so the reader doesn't have to click the link to find that out (from context, one might even infer that Ilúvatar was an ally of Sauron).
  • It was 5 'October' in the second year of Isildur's reign – Why 'October' rather than plain October?
  • Citation 4 (The Ring and the Cross) is available via Google Books and should be linked to make it easier to verify what the source says.
  • Tom Shippey writes that Gandalf's account to the Council of Elrond of Isildur's description of the Ring combines hints of the ancient time in which Isildur lived, with old words like "glede" (a hot coal) and obsolete endings as in "fadeth", and "loseth", but with a sudden reminder of Gollum's name for the Ring, with "It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain." – This sentence needs copyediting for readability and clarity. It seems ungrammatical to me combines [...], but with [...], but that might be because it is a bit difficult to parse.
  • The paragraph about the 1978 film version of The Lord of the Rings is unsourced. Am I to infer that the film itself is used as a primary source for this material?
  • Removed.
  • Later, as he sat at the base of a tree by the River Anduin examining the One Ring. He senses a disturbance, draws his sword, and is shot by Orc arrows a moment later. – This needs copyediting for grammar including sentence structure and verb tense.
  • Fixed. Looks as if someone hastily tried to improve things by splitting sentences and changing tenses. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:40, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In The Return of the King, Legolas calls Isildur "the last king of Gondor", but in the extended edition both Arnor and the House of Anárion are mentioned, and it is clear that Isildur was not the last king. – This seems like the kind of WP:ANALYSIS that really needs to come from the sources.
  • Isildur's fate differs from the traditional accounts – to me, "traditional accounts" is an odd phrasing to use for a work of fiction (as opposed to, say, legend/myth/religion/history).
  • Yes, it's just reporting that it exists, i.e. "basic facts", acceptable per policy. It's primary wrt itself; it's secondary wrt Tolkien's Isildur. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:26, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ping LordPeterII and Chiswick Chap. TompaDompa (talk) 19:25, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TompaDompa: Oh... okay. That's a lot of things, and tbh I don't think I will be able to deal with many of them myself :/ Frankly, I didn't expect any major issues would arise that weren't already covered in the Good Article review. It's rather unusual to have an article pass GA but get hold up at DYK, although I can see some of your points. If @Chiswick Chap could help with this, it would be great.
The hook is all that I personally contributed, and I agree it needs to change. I wasn't aware Elendil ran with basically the same hook; I'll try to think of something else. –LordPeterII (talk) 19:42, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A curious situation. I was not even consulted about the DYK. I've addressed the wider-than-DYK issues above. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Chiswick Chap: I'm sorry I did not consult you. I had nominated another GA by you before and pinged you there; and really I thought being named as author of a DYK article would automatically send a ping of sorts (I now understand it does not). Would you be fine if I nominated other articles by you, provided I inform you first? Anyway, thanks a lot for taking care of the outlined issues (if similar ones should arise again, I will take care of those I can; I was hoping for help mostly with the more complicated ones, or those that require access to sources). –LordPeterII (talk) 14:13, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. It should be ok, but you ought to be ready to field questions if you're nom. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:43, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@TompaDompa: Okay, I've thought of two possible alternate hooks:
I personally think ALT1 would be the catchier hook (used some piping to shorten it, otherwise it was almost at the character limit), as ALT2 feels a bit like "name dropping" (but it's in the article). –LordPeterII (talk) 19:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think ALT2 is a bit of a stretch when what the source says is Like Jesus, Aragorn was the direct descendant in a regal lineage that had ceased to occupy the throne since a time of decadence in the nation's past.
ALT1 is pretty good, but needs copyediting. The titles should be in italics, and "more favourably" needs clarification (more favourably than...?). Take care not to make the hook too long, though. Ping LordPeterII. TompaDompa (talk) 02:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

LordPeterII - ping - I suspect the previous one didn't work as it was midway in a paragraph. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

TompaDompa - I've tweaked ALT1 for you. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@LordPeterII and Chiswick Chap: I don't think "favourably" is the right word to use here. It works when put in relative terms ("more favourably", though that needs the clarification of what it is compared to), but just saying that Isildur is portrayed favourably implies that he is portrayed in a positive light rather than in a sympathetic one. The comparison with Michael Corleone makes this stick out—Michael Corleone is perhaps portrayed as tragic figure, but certainly not as a good guy. The Godfather should also be rendered in italics. TompaDompa (talk) 07:55, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
TompaDompa - All right, try this. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:00, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That works. I tweaked the italics. ALT3 ready. TompaDompa (talk) 08:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note to promoter: I would suggest running this in conjunction with the season finale of The Rings of Power, which appears to be October 14. TompaDompa (talk) 08:12, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Spotchecks[edit]

Chiswick Chap, I should have been doing spotchecks when I reviewed this for GA, so I went back and did several. Most were OK, but I have one question.

  • FNs 4, 5, & 6 cite "Catholic scholars have noted that just as Jesus, in his role as king, is a descendant of King David, Aragorn is a descendant of Isildur." I see related discussions in these sources, but no explicit mention of Isildur. Am I missing something?

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I think those sources were covering a closely related point about Aragorn, not this one. Replaced with a definite ref. This Aragorn/Isildur...Jesus/David thing is actually a commonplace among Catholic sources, but many of them like this are probably too opinionated for Wikipedia. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:34, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the parallels aren't hard to see. Thanks for the fix. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:27, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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