Talk:Isle of Bute/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Stella McCartney

was going to add something about stella mcCartney's wedding - and the recent emergence of Bute as a bit of a hip place to hang out for various london / uk based celebs / bo-ho.s - wondering what anyone thinks? (i'll come back later to see!) Purples 12:53, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd say it warrants a sentence or two definitely.
I wonder if is partly due to Johnny Bute mixing with that crowd in London? Neil McDermott 14:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 13:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Isle of Bute → Bute – The consensus at the recently completed Requested move (see Talk:County of Bute) was that when readers type the word "Bute" into the search box or a search engine, in the majority of cases they are looking for the island, and not the long defunct county (abolished in 1975). Research showed that the Isle of Bute Wikipedia article is one of very few Scottish islands to use the naming format "Isle of foo" - in practice "Isle of ... " is not often used. If we move this page to Bute, we would need to move the disambiguation page back to Bute (disambiguation) (and obviously point to that page with a dab header), so I will post a notice pointing to this discussion over there. --Mais oui! 04:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support --Mais oui! 04:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- given that there are already six possibilities for disambiguation on the current Bute page, two of which are very closely related, then this move would re-introduce the confusion that we have just eradicated. Owain (talk) 08:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- 'Bute' is ambiguous. Laurel Bush 11:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC).
  • weak oppose if the dab was just the defunct Scottish county, I'd agree with Mais Oui!, but given the other possibilities I see no reason that Bute shouldn't be a dab. If 'Isle of' is not the usual way of refering to the Island, then rename it Bute (Island), which clearly gives the correct name, but allows the disambig --Doc ask? 12:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- I went to Bute originally, but prefer this to a disambiguation. The Bute (Island) would be fine too.Isoxyl 12:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - initially I'd have supported this, but there is more disambiguation needed than I initially thought. Stringops 12:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - because Bute should be either the county or the island, I don't care much which so long as it's one of the two. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Fleas

I moved the fleas to the bottom, as did someone else who beat me in the edit-conflict. This section and whole article needs some help and editing. I need more info on the "Island of Fleas" to determine if this is really as notable as it is made out to be. Anyone care to cite some sources for this info? Also cleaned up the scientific notation and some spelling errors, though others remain. It remains to be seen if all this information is really necessary for the Bute article. Perhaps it can be compressed for this article and/or fleshed out on its on special page... Any ideas welcome! Isoxyl 19:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Population

The opening paragraph about the population sounds a bit confused - the census doesn't care whether a house is registered as somebody's main home for tax purposes, only whether you are resident there on census day. So the 7,228 figure shouldn't be an exaggeration, in fact it ought to be an accurate figure for the April population (unless people have actually been fiddling their census returns). 213.249.235.86 12:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably worth dropping the bit about an exaggeration (unless a reference states this), but the rest is fine. A reference for the summer/winter and main/holiday statements is needed. Also that info should be in the main article, not in the lead, which needs re-writing as a summary (WP:LEAD). I will get round to it eventually, but if someone else is editing anyway... Finavon 13:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

etymology

We have: "Probably originally known to the Norse as Bót, later during the Viking period the island was known as "Rothesay", possibly referring to a personal name "Roth" or "Roderick"". Might Bót have become Roth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

An interesting question and one I can't answer. I will ask for assistance from someone who can. Ben MacDui 13:57, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
At the phomological level, I doubt it. b > r would be an unprecendented change in a Gaelic word. Also, the Norse period is way past the point in time where -d could have yielded dh /ð/, it would have gone straight to /ɣ/ (in Gaelic). So Bót to Bóid is very predictable but linking Bót to Roth via Gaelic is nigh impossible from a phonetic point of view. That is not to say it could be a copy & paste error of some scribe mistaking Bothsøy as Rothsøy. Is the change b > r known from Norse would be my other question? Or possibly an initial br- which was simplified differently? Sorry I can't be more helpful. Akerbeltz (talk) 14:48, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Just read all of the page. So we actually have Bót attested in Orkneyinga, which is nice, so we can ignore my question about a br initial. What I find interesting is that the 1549 source writes it Rosay. Which doesn't really explain the name either (in fact, it makes it look much less like Bót) but looking at it makes me wonder if the Rothesay spelling isn't some later re-interpretation of Rosay? Do we know when the Rothesay spelling actually first appears? Akerbeltz (talk) 14:54, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Many thanks again. I don't know for sure when "Rothesay" appears. Blaeu's 1654 atlas has a map of "Buthe Insula" or "The Yle of Boot" which has Rothesay on it (although no sign of "Borrowstone"). The Chronicle of Mann refers to Ospakr's 1230 attempt on the castle but does not name it, referring only to "Both et castellum" (and elsewhere there is a reference to Rothersay). This incident is apparently related in more detail in Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar but so far I have not found an online copy. There is some further woffle here and see also this pdf from page 7 on. On page 15 we read that Rosay is the 14th century form from Rothesay, not vice-versa. Rothesay is by most accounts of Norse origin, and Bute and variants is therefore presumably the earlier name. Ben MacDui 09:42, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
BTW, you guys should read Boardman's article on the "3. The Gaelic World and the Early Stewart Court", it has some relevant discussion:
http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/scottishstudies/ebooks/miorunmor.htm
Also, the Norse period is way past the point in time where -d could have yielded dh /ð/, it would have gone straight to /ɣ/ (in Gaelic).
What's the evidence for this? My own experience of spelling variations and adaptations suggests this is still very much possible in the 12th century in the east of Scotland, but you can see there is some register/dialect difference that turns it into /ɣ/ on some occasions. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
It's generally seen as dropping out of the written language around the 13th century, which is indeed still in the middle of Norse Scotland but the conservative shared tradition of Classical Irish is both slow to change and masks many developments which must have been very common in the spoken language. It's a bit like the Book of Deer and Scots Gaelic, the Book of Deer may be the first appearance of Scottish Gaelic forms in writing but on the ground, that is almost certain to mean that spoken Scottish Gaelic had drifted a lot earlier than that. Similarly, the use of Classical Chinese masked the massive changes in spoken Chinese variants very effectively. Or, last example, kn- spellings in English. So if there are signs it's going out of the window in written Gaelic in the 13th century, that likely means that it was adios /ð/ a few centuries earlier in spoken Gaelic, which means the d > /ð/ change is unlikely to my mind. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:49, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
OK, that's what you mean by Norse period. :)
Fortunately (usually its unfortunate!), eastern Scotland has lots of English and Frenchies writing down Scottish names as they hear them in their own orthography without the idiosyncratic interference of standard Irish orthography. Hardcore Celtic linguists if they ever felt so inclined would have a great time going through the "Scottish" charters of the 12th and 13th centuries. I guess there might be a kind of higher register spoken form, influenced by the spelling? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:29, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

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Scots pronunciation

If the Gaelic version is Bòd and the traditional spelling is Bute, this probably means that the correct Scots pronunciation is [bʏt] or [bɪt], depending on a dialect, and that [bjʉt] is a late spelling pronunciation; cf. Phonological history of Scots#Vowel 7. (The sensible English rendering would then be [buwt], just like Penicuik is pronounced Penny-cook, not Penny-kewk). Anyone there with sources to back it? 46.186.32.6 (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

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