Talk:Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian civil war

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Number of Iranians killed.[edit]

After reading the three sources, its figure out its a little ambigous the number of Iranians killed, in short: "a close source to Hezbollah claimed 6 others Iranians died but Iran have only confirmed the death of one General" The First Source, Explain this briefly (Aljazeera), the Second Source names the killed; one Iranian and many Hezbollah dead. The Last Source J-Post , uses the same first source. My edit was wrong, theres at least one killed acording to the IRGC and 6 dead Iranians according to other sources.200.48.214.19 (talk) 12:43, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This incident is not related to the cease-fire line, whether Iranians and Israel were indeed involved or were not.GreyShark (dibra) 15:16, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Iran has denied any of its troops have been killed on the 24th of May: https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-denies-any-of-its-troops-killed-in-suspected-israeli-strike-in-syria/

Other claims of casualties in this article are also dubious, the Iranians always burry their soldiers with much fanfare, with pictures of the funerals published online. So far the numbers do not add up. We can conclude that most of these news articles are just speculative.

Marius816 (talk) 18:17, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Merge[edit]

Propose to merge August 2015 Israel–Syria border incident -> Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War on the basis of WP:NOTABLE and WP:NOTNEWS.

The August 2015 exchange of fire between Israel and Syria is a relatively minor event within the scope of the wider Syrian civil war (few casualties only) and hasn't resulted in any geopolitical implications. A number of events happened in Syria on August 20-21, like Kurdish advance in Hasakah and 4 airstrikes by the US airforce against ISIL, but there are no articles designated for those events. Also - it is not unique in a sequence of Israel-Syrian Arab Republic fire exchanges, which have been sporadically happening since the onset of the Syrian civil war. Finally, the August 2015 incident article is relying on six sources - all from 20 or 21 of August, implying it is a typical news event, with no significant notability. The information itself perhaps has some value, but this paragraph should better be included in the Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War article.GreyShark (dibra) 07:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 DoneGreyShark (dibra) 05:06, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "ynet":

  • From Israel: "'Israel's economy most durable in face of crises', Ynet 20 May 2010". Ynetnews.com. 20 May 2010. Retrieved 29 September 2010.
  • From August 2015 Israel–Syria border incident: IAF strikes in Syria, kills rocket launchers
  • From July 2013 Latakia explosion: Kais, Roi (6 July 2013). "Mysterious explosion hits Assad munitions cache in Latakia". Ynetnews. Retrieved 7 March 2014.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Number of Israeli killed/injured[edit]

Most incident listed have nothing to do with the article subject.

Soldiers killed by playing with granade - NO.

Soldier killed/injured on the lebanon border - NO. 91.193.51.64 (talk) 06:46, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, removed. I also fixed the Ba'athist Syrian and Hezbollah casualties - some have nothing to do with the cease-fire line incidents.GreyShark (dibra) 16:39, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Syrian claim shooting down plane and UAV[edit]

World papers don't except Syrian claims. Placing it in infobox is undue. 91.193.51.64 (talk) 06:49, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NPOV i see no reason to include Ba'ath regime announcement with "Ba'athist Syrian claim" suffix. "World papers don't except Syrian claims" is clearly violating WP:CK.GreyShark (dibra) 05:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Golan Heights incident[edit]

If the source claims there are Syrian positions within the Israeli-held territory, it is simply wrong. If there were Syrian positions there, it wouldn't be "occupied". --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:39, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article says "According to Lerner, Israeli planes launched an attack on a Syrian army position in the occupied Golan Heights, in response to projectiles being launched from Syria into the territory which occurred hours into a ceasefire brokered by the US and Russia.". Your interpretation that it has something to do with the Israeli-controlled part of Golan is WP:SYNTH. Occupied Golan can be rebel-held or Asad regime-held. It seems both Ba'athist Syria and Syrian Opposition enforce military rule over the civil areas around Quneitra, more or less being adequate to belligerent military occupation.GreyShark (dibra) 20:56, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Occupied Golan" usually refers to the Israeli part, so it's a confusing sentence. At least it confused me. Do we have to rigidly stick to the wording of our sources? --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 01:13, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, in the past it used to be the case. Now, however, things are very much chaotic and undetermined. Let's leave your last edit as is for now.GreyShark (dibra) 16:37, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alrightie. Sorry if I was a bit harsh earlier :) --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:51, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No prob - lots of respect and WP:GF :)GreyShark (dibra) 13:31, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Mikrobølgeovn: remarkably "Occupied Golan" referring to Ba'athist-held Golan became "Israeli-occupied Golan" by some inventenous editor. did i just miss Israeli invasion in Syria?GreyShark (dibra) 19:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Where did someone add that? --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Hezbollah":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:00, 19 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Syrian Observatory For Human Rights[edit]

The SOHR is not a reliable source, they have an obvious anti-government and anti-Iran bias. This should be mentioned in the article.

Marius816 (talk) 18:30, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "aljazeera.com":

Reference named "auto2":

Reference named "auto3":

Reference named "auto4":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:30, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

DEBKAfile and The Baghdad post[edit]

These are not reliable or neutral sources and should not be used. Marius816 (talk) 09:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2018[edit]

14 April 2018 Marius816 (talk) 09:34, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:57, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2018[edit]

Marius816 (talk) 09:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:57, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2018[edit]

7 September 2017 Marius816 (talk) 09:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:57, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Collusions[edit]

Regarding [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Israeli%E2%80%93Syrian_military_collusion_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War&action=history these edits by @Virtualerian:: shouldn't this have been proposed and discussed on the talk page? (Or was it and I'm just not seeing it?) It makes no sense whatsoever. Collusion means something like "secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy in order to deceive others". The article does not seem to describe any collusion between Israel and Syria, assuming Syria is taken to mean the Syrian government. Rather, it describes clashes. Maybe you mean collisions? What was wrong with "incidents"? The lede now makes absolutely no sense: "several Israeli-Syria military collusion occurred several times"? Collusion can only be singular, as @Ira Leviton: points out, so if the article was about collusion, it'd have to read something like "several instances of Israeli-Syria military collusion have occurred". But that would appear to be the opposite of what the article body says. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:34, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article name did not describe its content. Yes I meant "collisions" but was auto-corrected to collusion. And I have to agree, "incidents" or "clashes" sound appropriate as well. Virtualerian (talk) 13:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 19 June 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Israeli–Syrian military incidents during the Syrian Civil War L293D (☎ • ✎) 14:58, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli–Syrian military collusion during the Syrian Civil War → Israeli–Syrian_military_conflicts_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War – The current title makes no sense (see previous talk page section). R'n'B (call me Russ) 01:43, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

User Virtualerian[edit]

Please stop reverting the edits made by me or other user regarding the article. A lot of entries dont have a single source backing them. Other entries have sources that indicate other information. I´dont know if all those edits are made by you; but I simply dont care. All info regarding this article must have at least a RS.Mr.User200 (talk) 01:29, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can I suggest that material that is poorly sourced be first tagged with "citation needed" or "better source needed", thus allowing time to verify, rather than simply deleting, especially if there are different views amongst editors as to the inclusion? BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:34, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Its posible but it depends of the content itself.Mr.User200 (talk) 18:56, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll revert your edits as long as you don't cite a reasonable reason to delete information from this article. You deletd information, citing that "no sources claim that", like in this case, although there are multiple sources for that particular claim, like this one. The fact that a lot of information in this article is poorly sourced doesn't give you the right to delete it right away, and you have to at least put "citation needed" mark or discuss it in the talk page, beforehand. In addition, you delete refrences citing Twitter/Facebook account of major media outlets, although it's considered a reliable source if it's PUBLISHED by official media outlets. The platform (Social network site, television, newspapers or website) doesn't guarantee that one source is reliable or not, but the publisher does, and in fact, this is Wikipedia's official policy. Virtualerian (talk) 06:08, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Attack on Quneitra area[edit]

Attack on Quneitra area which happened on night of 11 June 2018 should be added to the table. 109.60.39.203 (talk) 22:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Israel Evacuates 800 Members of White Helmets Rescue Organization to Jordan[edit]

Requested move 25 July 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 17:01, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli–Syrian military incidents during the Syrian Civil War → Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War – This page was moved to a new title without discussion on 9 June, creating edit warring and several more name moves. However, Current naming changes the scope and may require incidents involving Iran and other forces, as well as possibly merging with Israeli involvement in the Syrian Civil War article. Since there was no discussion to move the article in early June from original title Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War, I propose to move back in order to restore original meaning for the content. GreyShark (dibra) 05:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 13:25, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Good idea. We can store the original content (including some additional info) in Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War. --Virtualerian (talk) 16:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The reasoning for the move is good, but it would be nice to have something shorter.--Pharos (talk) 21:51, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Useful source[edit]

I haven't looked carefully, but this source and specifically the map might be useful for checking the list of incidents in the article, including those with weaker sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:38, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is problematic to say the least. First, this map only contains incidents from the last 7 months, and only major ones. Secondly, there is just no way to verify the Israeli involvement, because it usually refuses to comment on the incidents. --Virtualerian (talk) 15:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli-supported groups in Quneitra area[edit]

It is not a secret anymore that Israel support some opposition forces who are located very close to its border. Israeli logic behind this is to inspect the border, and prevent the arrival of Iranian and Hezbollah forces very close to the border. Fursan al-Joulan is a well known one, and there are several others who are lesser known. This is supported by multiple sources, including major media outlets such as The Intercept, Wall Street Journal, News Deeply, Haaretz and also opposition-affiliated media outlets. --Virtualerian (talk) 15:55, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It has been discussed many times - there is no indication of Israeli support to rebels, unless you consider humanitarian aid as support (which we don't). See talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 11:15, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I know that this was the consensus back then, but since then multiple additional sources appeared, and in addition you have to take into account that most of the direct Israeli military support to the rebels started only after the Military Operations Center (MOC) was disbanded in 2017 (so it's relatively new). If according to this logic, multiple sources (including Syrian ones, which report it as a fact) can't confirm that (based on contacts with locals or fighters of opposition groups in Quneitra area), then what else can? Even when there was much less evidence for Iran and Hezbollah involvement in supporting the Syrian regime (back in 2011 & 2012), they were still listed as supporters. --Virtualerian (talk) 11:39, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the evidence pointing to Israel military assistance to rebel groups:
1) Elizabeth Tsukrov states: "Rebels from Quneitra and western Daraa, as well as media activists in those regions with ties to the rebels, told me that Israel began providing more military support to a greater number of rebel groups affiliated with the Free Syrian Army. This support came in the form of weapons, ammunition and money to purchase weapons on the black market. All of my sources confirmed the identity of at least seven factions receiving Israeli support, on the condition that the groups would not be named." She has been in contact with fighters who received Israeli support. Elizabeth Tsukrov frequently appears in the media, her sources are considered very credible, and she was the first Israeli to interview a major opposition group, Army of Islam.
2) Firqat Ahrar Nawa militant members were recorded using Israeli supplied 107mm rockets. In this video, uploaded by SMART News Agency, you can see the paper attached to the box which reads "107mm rockets" in Hebrew. Israeli military assistance to this group is verified by Elizabeth Tsukrov.
3) The Intercept quoted Abu Ahmad, an activist from Jubata al-Khashab (Fursan al-Joulan's stronghold), who says that the group "been provided with M16s” — American-made assault rifles used by the Israelis — “vehicles, salaries, and training." Israel supplying M-16 rifles is verified by Elizabeth Tsukrov. 2 members of Fursan al-Joulan denied training, but openly talked about military support.
4) There are additional sources quoting fighters and activists from Quneitra area who verify Israeli military assistance to some groups in the region. Due to the sensitivity of the issue, no one would openly declare that.
--Virtualerian (talk) 09:36, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The degree of assistance, beyond humanitarian assistance, is quite unclear per the sources. Even when reliable sources claim (in a hedged and attributed manner) some military assistance it is usually very low-grade material assistance (e.g. - surplus M-16s above - this being the highly partisan The Intercept making this claim - and even that attributed to an activist).Icewhiz (talk) 07:44, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is backed up by relaible sources that Israel are supporting terrorist organizatins in Syria, so it can be added to the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:28, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Total losses[edit]

Lower Higher
1 1
142 300
0 10
10 20
4 4
5 5
1 1
10 10
2 10
3 3
12 12
6 6
5 5
2 3
0 5
13 13
10 10
3 3
3 3
2 2
1 1
1 1
1 1
3 3
3 3
13 13
27 27
12 12
6 10
14 14
20 20
26 38
8 8
9 9
27 27
0 28
12 12
25 25
10 10
2 2
52 95
0 9
7 7
9 22
1 1
523 824

Mr.User200, I checked the numbers in the timeline table twice. I just checked the figures you presented here as well and the summed up numbers simply do not come out as 346–415. I would first ask the following... You argue the higher figure is 415, but if only from two strikes higher figures of 300 and 95 were claimed (which is 395 when combined) then the higher total can most definitely not be just 415 when you include all the rest, right? I have rechecked the figures you presented here and there were several discrepancies in comparison to the timeline table. I have corrected the figures on the talk page following the timeline and ran them through Microsoft Excel, as well as a calculator, and I have gotten 551–824.


I would also point out that the 16 June 2013 incident, as well as the 21 August 2015 incident, are in need of a lower number 0 estimate. This is because in the first incident SOHR reported 10 deaths by a CAR BOMB, while other opp. sources claimed it was an air-strike. In the second incident SOHR reported 5 combatant deaths by an air-strike, while Syria said the 5 were civilians.


I hope this clears it all up now. EkoGraf (talk) 04:19, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it clears it up. Sorry for the reverts, I made a mistake in the count.Mr.User200 (talk) 23:20, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No problem! :) EkoGraf (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs a serious work & clean-up[edit]

  • 1) It is already verified the Israel had hit around 300 targets in Syria since 2012.
  • 2) The article name "casefire line incidents" doesn't make sense, when most of the information in this article is definitely not about ceasefire line incidents, but Iranian/Hezbollah ones. This article should definitely be reverted to "military incidents" or else..
  • 3) The are a lot of suspected Israeli strikes which aren't included in the timeline. I hope to add them when I have a free time to do that.
  • 4) The estimated number of casualties doesn't add up. We need to find an agreed method to calculate.
  • 5) Equiptment losses of SAM's, tanks, munitions, etc should be included in the table.

--Virtualerian (talk) 16:28, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 September 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS while there are no explicit "oppose" !votes, concerns have been raised about this changing the scope of the article or the move necessitating a merge (non-admin closure) Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:18, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War → Israeli–Syrian military incidents during the Syrian Civil War – A more appropriate name; describes the article's content. Virtualerian (talk) 11:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 22:05, 17 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 20:38, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: While the lead and some of the timeline table entries (which seems that you've added) do talk about incidents, the prose section does not talk about it at all. So if you're aiming to expend the scope of the article, then don't just hide information in the table. If this article has been decided that table form is better than prose, then the title should be "List of..." but if it isn't a list, then the prose does not talk about anything other than the line incidents. --Gonnym (talk) 16:49, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Is the replacement of the dash with a hyphen intentional? 142.160.89.97 (talk) 18:20, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support since page includes mention of other military incidents besides at the ceasefire line, and changed request to hyphen per above עם ישראל חי (talk) 16:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral - this would change the scope of this article. Originally this page is only about the border incidents, there are two more articles dealing with the broader conflict - Iran-Israel proxy conflict and Israeli involvement in the Syrian Civil War. If renamed - we would have to merge them.GreyShark (dibra) 06:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2018[edit]

Request to change September 15 2018 incidents date to September 16, since the first reports of the strike emerged at about 2:47AM local time during sept 16 Marjdabi (talk) 02:57, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1) The attack occured on Sep 15. 2) Initial reports were on Sep 15. See this.--Virtualerian (talk) 10:24, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:24, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"israeli territory"[edit]

Sources like Times of Israel will use that phrasing for the Golan Heights, however that is not NPOV. Today's rocket for example landed near Metzar, which is not in Israeli territory it is in the occupied Golan. Will be correcting these issues. nableezy - 20:15, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Footnote 141 is depreciated, does it source anything that the other 2 sources don’t?[edit]

As EI is depreciated RFC: Electronic Intifada, I would like to remove it. Does that affect content as well (which I don’t believe), or can we get rid of it? FortunateSons (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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