Talk:Italian Brazilians

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Original Research[edit]

Hello. I put the following tags to the page: {{Original research}}, {{Refimprove}} because the article as a whole has just six references and most of the sections have no reference at all. I don't know who originally provided the information, but if that user reaches this page could you please be kind enough and add those references to the article? Cheers. --Mhsb (talk) 05:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Italian Brazilians?![edit]

The title of this article is politically incorrect, as it implies that those people are foreigners, or are so considered by themselves or by other Brazilians. The correct way to refer to them - especially for people who are not Brazilian - is "Brazilians of Italian descent". Ninguém (talk) 14:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I undid Opinoso's removal of what he thinks is "vandalism". There is absolutely no conection between the introduction of coffee plantations and immigration. Coffee had been a major culture in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro much before abolition, and slaves were used in coffee plantations in large numbers. In fact, the 11 representatives that voted against abolition in 1888 were from the coffee plantation area of Rio de Janeiro. So it is not true that "coffee demanded better trained workers" when compared to cotton or sugarcane.

A good read about the subject is Paula Beiguelman's " A FORMAÇÃO DO POVO NO COMPLEXO CAFEEIRO". Ninguém (talk) 14:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really serious? The immigration boom in Brazil occured because, since 1850, slave traffic in Brazil was fordibben, and since then, there were few workers in the coffe platantions, which represented 30% of Brazil's exports in that time.

Nobody is saying slaves did not work in coffee plantations, the article does say that, but after the end of slave traffic (1850) and slavery (1888), the immigration of Italians took place to replace the Africans.

With the arrival of the Italians, coffee reached 60% of Brazil's exports.

I am sorry, but you know nothing about Brazilian History.

Please, stop vandalism in this article. Opinoso (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This encyclopedia is in English, and in English they use more Italian Brazilian than "Brazilians of Italian descent". As they also use Italian American.

If you know any Portuguese, read this article: Fim da escravidão gera medidas de apoio a imigração no Brasil

Opinoso (talk) 15:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you continue to change this article with no sources and erase informations, I will report this as vandalism and you will probably be blocked from Wikipedia. Opinoso (talk) 15:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whitening project[edit]

I know very little of this subject, but it appears to me this entire section is WP:OR and WP:POV. Also, the phrase "In Brazil, 65% of the Italian immigrants came from Northern Italy" is unsupported. A simple addition of the regions in the list below it prove it to be about 50-50, similar to Argentina. I also removed the very unbalanced POV comments that followed that sentence. It purported to have a citation, which tho' quite long, I skimmed through and found it makes no such statement. Simply put, the comment was bullshit. Dionix (talk) 23:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that list does not count Northern Italian immigrants who came from regions such as Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and Aosta Valley. Many of the immigrants came to Brazil from these Northern Italian regions, but they are not even listed there.
All the sources say most immigrants in Brazil came from Northern Italy. There's a source about Brazilians with Italian nationality, and most of them got Italian nationaly from Northern Italian ancestors, a second place to Central and a only third place to South. By the way, that list stops in 1920, and many more Italians arrived in Brazil from 1920 to 1960, mostly from Northern Italy. Opinoso (talk) 03:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A lot seems to depend on if you slice Italy in two (north, south) or three (north, central, south). Even your source says that after the Venetians (30% of the total) the largest groups came from Campania and Calabria (both south no matter how you slice it). And to say the list doesn't include the three regions you list are misleading because two of them were part of Veneto or Austria prior to WW2, and thus denominated as such, and any numbers from Aosta would be very small anyways. Also, I don't think you are correct in saying after 1920 most were still from the north. This source, among many others, says the opposite.
Finally, I added the following to User:Opinoso's talk page: Regarding Brazil, you are correct in that I had removed the reference, but I'm still not sure it supports the statement you are making. My understanding of Portuguese is limited, but "os imigrantes do sul eram morenos" does not imply the Venetians are not (many are); and it doesn't support the statement that Northern Italians were preferred under the "Whitening project". Am I missing something in the translation? Dionix (talk) 00:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dionix, you are right. Absolutely. The reference does not support the statement that Northern Italians were preferred under the "Whitening project". This is just Opinoso´s stubornness.

--Quissamã (talk) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other Influences[edit]

The article says: "A bunch of loan words (italianisms), such as ravióli, espaguete, macarrão, nhoque, pizza, lasanha, panetone, esquifoso, feltro, pivete, bisonho, cicerone, and many others." This interpretation is fundamentally flawed. For one thing, "loan word" does not equal "Italianism." Second, the examples cited here are Luso-fied pronunciations of actual Italian words--approximated pronunciations of Italian foods, not "Italianisms." In the United States, the words "lasagna" or "spaghetti" don't count as "loan words," regardless of whether or not the spelling of the original Italian is modified (gnocchi vs. "nhoque," etc). "Chow mein" in Chinese-American cuisine is not a loan word, as there are not loan words. They are the titles of various Italian foods, nothing more. A true "Italianism" would be actual Italian usage working its way into local vocabularies, as in the Argentine "manyar" or "laburar." These claims need to be modified. --Lulletc (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Very few Italian words came to Portuguese thru immigrants, most of them are, actually, Italian words used in Portugal for centuries. There are exceptions, such as "Brócoli" or "Cantina", which in fact came with the immigrants.

However, there's a strong influence from the Italian dialects in the spoken Portuguese of São Paulo and in some other areas of Southern Brazil; these influences are stronger in people's accent than in their vocabulary. Opinoso (talk) 16:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the words referred in the article did not come from Italian through immigrants. For instance, compare "ciao", which indeed came through immigrants, an is pronounced (and often even written) "tchau", to "cicerone" which is always pronounced "sisserone" (because it was imported via written Italian) instead of "tchitcherone" (as it would be the case if it had been imported through oral Italian). Ninguém (talk) 14:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other issue is the suppposed influence of Italian pronunciation on Portuguese spoken in São Paulo. The differences between the pronunciation in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro do not seem to match what would be expected if they were caused by Italian influence. For an Italian speaker, it is very difficult to pronounce Portuguese nasal diphtongs, or to distinguish the different Portuguese vowels "ê" and "é", or "ô" and "ó". However, Portuguese spoken in São Paulo city does not have a different pronunciation of these phonems, when compared to Rio de Janeiro - or, when they do, such as is the case of stressed vowels, which tend to become elongated, and even diphtongated in São Paulo city, it is hard to correlate this with Italian influence. It is true that the pronounce of post-vocalic /s/ and /r/ in São Paulo city does seem closer to the Italian pronounce, as the /s/ is not palatalized, and the /r/ is not gutural, but this would also be the usual pronounciation in many parts of Portugal, where Italian influence is minimal. Ninguém (talk) 14:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Causes of Italian Immigration[edit]

There is no connection between Slave Emancipation and the booming immigration despite they were simultaneous events. Lack of labor was the only cause as ever. Freed slaves continued to work hardly in plantations. Just think about it!

It is wrong and has a touch of racism to mention the Slave Emancipation as the cause of the booming immigration.

--Quissamã (talk) 19:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Opinoso.

Read the referenced sources. The erased information are not provided by the referenced source. I rewrote to keep the information that is in the referenced source, although a high-school text is not exactly a reliable source.

Also, the erased text has a racist bias. It gives the wrong notion that Slave Emancipation was the cause of the lack of labor in coffee plantations. Certainly, who wrote this text believes that black people is lazy and fled the plantations work as soon as they were allowed to do so. Most of them remained in the plantations receiving small wages as freed men.

Indeed, all the coffee was gathered in 1888 despite the fear of the former slaves masters. (My source: Stanley Stein. Vassouras, a Coffee Country).

You need to read a book. Any book.


--Quissamã (talk) 21:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is astonishing how some racist bias and lack of historical knowledge can provide some garbage in Wikipedia, specially in the Italian Brazilian topic, like these:

For this reason, immigrants from Northern Italy were most desired by the Brazilian government, since their physical characteristics would bring desired results to the "whitening project" of the Brazilian people[citation needed].

After 1888, when the slavery was finally abolished by a decree of the Imperial government, the number of farm workers fell drastically in Brazil, due to the fact that most black (former) slaves, with no lands of their own and no money to buy them, moved mostly to urban areas[citation needed]

Just POV garbage. And racist POV.

PS: A decree is different from a law. The name was Lei Áurea, a law proposed (by João Alfredo) and voted by Congressmen; it was not an imperial decree, proposed by the Emperor or the Regent-Princess.

I´ll be back

--Quissamã (talk) 01:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blah-Blah-blah[edit]

The following text is totally unnecessary. It´s better move it to Adoniran Barbosa biography. An English speaker will never distinguish the Italian and Portuguese words of this lyrics. For him/her, they look the same.

By the way, it was a pidgin or a dialect. People should know the difference before write such nonsense.

Brazilian samba singer Adoniran Barbosa (stage name of João Rubinato), the son of Italian immigrants, was born in the town of Valinhos, São Paulo. Barbosa was known as the composer to the lower classes of São Paulo, particularly the poor Italian immigrants living in the quarters of Bexiga (Bela Vista) and Brás, as well as the poor who lived in the city's many shanties and cortiços (degraded multifamily row houses). He knew well the pidgin Italian-Portuguese dialect[citation needed] spoken in the streets of São Paulo, mostly in the sections of Mooca, Brás and Bexiga. In 1965, Barbosa wrote Samba Italiano (Italian Samba), a song that emphasized the influence of the Italian in São Paulo's spoken language.


Original in São Paulo's pidgin

Gioconda, piccina mia,
Vai brincar ali no mare í no fundo,
Mas atencione co os tubarone, ouviste
Capito, meu San Benedito?

Piove, piove,
Fa tempo que piove qua, Gigi,
E io, sempre io,
Sotto la tua finestra
E vuoi senza mi sentire
Ridere, ridere, ridere
Di questo infelice qui

Ti ricordi, Gioconda,
Di quella sera in Guarujá
Quando il mare ti portava via
E mi chiamasti
Aiuto, Marcello!
La tua Gioconda ha paura di quest'onda

Free translation to English

Gioconda, my little
Go frolicking there, deep into the sea
But pay attention to the sharks, do you hear
Understood, my Saint Benedict?

It rains, it rains
It has rained for a long time here, Gigi
And I, always I
Under your window
And you, without hearing me
Laughs, laughs and laughs
Of this unhappy one here

Do you remember, Gioconda
That afternoon in Guarujá
When the sea took you away
And you called for me:
Help, Marcello!
Your Gioconda is afraid of this wave

--Quissamã (talk) 02:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC) [reply]


I moved the text above to Adoniran Barbosa article. I believe it is better now.

--Quissamã (talk) 04:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Italian dialects, pidgin and accent in São Paulo[edit]

Although not clear, complete or precise, the Wikipedia definitions can help.

A pidgin is a simplified language that develops as a means of communication between two or more groups that do not have a language in common, in situations such as trade.

A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers.[1] The term is applied most often to regional speech patterns, but a dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class.[2] A dialect is a complete system of verbal communication (oral or signed, but not necessarily written) with its own vocabulary and grammar.

A dialect is distinguished by its vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation (phonology, including prosody). Where a distinction can be made only in terms of pronunciation, the term accent is appropriate, not dialect (although in common usage, "dialect" and "accent" are usually synonymous). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quissamã (talk • contribs) 05:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made some changes to that section. It used to give the impression that the language spoken in São Paulo is some kind of mixture of Portuguese and Italian, which is false. Portuguese of São Paulo is Brazilian Portuguese, with very small variation from Brazilian Portuguese spoken elsewhere. There is a characteristic "paulistano" (ie, from São Paulo city) accent, which can perhaps be attributed to Italian influence, but no signs of Portuguese-Italian pidginisation or creolisation, much less "dialects". In São Paulo hinterland, the "caipira" accent still predominates. The Talian dialect of Rio Grande do Sul, on the other hand, is a modified Venetian dialect, also not a Portuguese-Italian mixture. Ninguém (talk) 14:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it must be noted that colloquial Portuguese spoken in São Paulo city is much closer to both Standard Brazilian Portuguese and colloquial Portuguese spoken in other areas of Brazil than colloquial Portuguese spoken in São Paulo hinterland. Ninguém (talk) 14:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

English language citations[edit]

Can anybody please help with finding English language citations and inserting them in the article in place of the foreign language ones? Thank you, --Tom 23:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Number of "Italian Brazilians"/Difference between "Italian Brazilians" and "Brazilians of Italian descent"[edit]

Ninguem,

I just saw your recent change in the Italian Brazilian article, I don’t agree with your numbers, I do understand your point that the vast majority of people with Italian ancestry have lost their Italian identity, however, I have to point out that the same can be said of Italian Argentineans and Italian Americans, still, all articles at Wikipedia gives the total population number with Italian ancestry, and not cultural connection. I suggest a compromise here, he have to put in the box the 25 million and make a note. As quality of sources go, the Italian government is more reliable than Miguel Angel Garcia, I checked this author, he is not let’s say a real ‘demographer’ he is more like a sociologist that used very ‘unusual’ ways of research for this paper. We can use his data on the note, but not as the official number, it would be unfair and I believe against the rules of Wikipedia. Regards, Paulista01 (talk) 14:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to disagree. I don't know if the "Italian Argentines" or "Italian Americans" are correctly reported, and I won't mess with those articles, as I haven't the necessary knowledge to do it. But there are by absolutely no means 25 million "Italian Brazilians" in Brazil. There aren't even 25 million people of Italian descent in Brazil. The Italian government figures are totally unreliable, and are nowhere explained. They do not count people in Brazil, and they haven't shown any calculations that could lead to the 25 million figure. It is also well known that in the past they have greately inflated their statistics on "Italian Brazilians". Their figures may be "official", but "official" does not substitute for "reliable", "verifiable", or "true". The 1998 July PME showed very clearly that this figure is fantastic. Counting people in six metropolitan regions, including two that have huge concentrations of people of Italian descent, São Paulo and Porto Alegre, it found people of Italian descent to be around 10.5% of the population. It is quite clear that this percent could only be lower if the total population of Brazil as a whole was counted. And 10.5% of the population is around 18 million people, not 25 million. The data on immigration to Brazil also show the 25 million people figure is impossible. As Judicael Clevelário has demonstrated (and he would be not only reliable and verifiable, but "official" too, as he is - or was, when he wrote - IBGE), the whole population of immigrant origin, including those of German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc, origin, is of about 25% the population of Brazil, or some 45 million people. And the Italian immigrants were about 1/3 of the immigrants to Brazil, not more than 1/2.
And, of course, not all Brazilians of Italian descent are "Italian Brazilians". Indeed, we don't even use such terminology, which is already a huge concession to the American tastes. We consider ourselves "descendentes de italiano" and "brasileiros", not "ítalo-brasileiros", and much less "italianos brasileiros" (which we would consider contradictory and ridiculous, perhaps even offensive, but is the literal translation of "Italian Brazilian"). And eventual Italian "influences" on Brazilian culture haven't to do with Brazilians of Italian descent: most Brazilians who like pizza aren't descended from Italians - and the truth is, Brazil is not a "multicultural society", as it is often written in these articles. On the contrary, it is pretty much "unicultural"; what we have is the opposite thing: an "open culture" that welcomes contributions from everywhere (and then improves on them, to the point of making them almost unrecognisable to the original source of the contribution: what Italian would imagine pizza with banana and cinammon?) but abhors ghettos. "Multicultural" are the United States (or at least the image they project of themselves, I don't know), where each huge city has dozens of different, incommunicable and mutually exclusive cultures.
What I can suggest as a compromise is the opposite: reporting the correct figure (about 2-3 million Italian Brazilians) and, secondarily, the figure for Brazilians of Italian descent (about 18 million). Perhaps we should even have a separate article for Brazilians of Italian descent, focused on Brazilians who have Italian ancestors, instead of Brazilians who are culturally Italian or semi-Italian, but this, I suppose, is another discussion. Ninguém (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ninguem,

You may be correct that Brazil does not have 25 million people of Italian descent, however, we are not supposed to argue about this here, as an encyclopedia we have to do our best to use sources, good sources, to totally disqualify the Italian government is not correct, and to tell you the truth from my point of view it is a little offensive. Regarding Brazil being ‘unicultural’, I disagree. Brazil has different cultures, especially regional differences, I do not want to start an argument about this though since I believe it is irrelevant and neither I nor any other editor should use this as a basis to write articles here. I agree that the Brazilian government has usually pushed towards a ‘unicultural’ environment, were they successful? I have my doubts. I have hundreds of examples that show the contrary. It is very undemocratic for a government or anybody to tell other people what they are and what they are not. If not, we may fall into the same trap that some of our fellow editors did, I believe you know the editor I am talking about. Personal opinion and agendas are clearly against the rules of this encyclopedia. So my solution is: let’s stick to the rules, report the 25 million and make a note about other figures or add something directly after the 25 million. This way we are respecting the different points of view that we are required to represent and we are being neutral. One thing we cannot do is simply delete a figure or a number, especially a government figure. Regards, Paulista01 (talk) 18:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is wrong or disrespectful to say that the Italian (or any other) government is wrong, on whatever issue, when they are wrong. I also don't think governments are usually good sources; they are political entities, and politics requires placing interests above truth. The quality of sources can only be assessed by the critical comparison between them. In this case, the Italian government data are incompatible with at least three other sources: 1) The IBGE's 1998 July PME, that points that people of Italian descent are about 10% of the Brazilian population, not 15%; 2) the available data about Italian immigration to Brazil, which, according to Judicael Clevelário, points to the whole population of immigrant descent in Brazil being 25% of the total, or about 45 million - the Italian immmigrants being about 1/3 of the total would point to about 15 million people; 3) the data about "Italian Americans", that point to 17 million people - when the US received 5 million Italian immigrants, as compared to 1.5 million Italian immigrants to Brazil. In short, the 25 million figure is only possible if people of Italian descent in Brazil have an abnormal prolificity compared to other Brazilian (and to people of Italian descent both in Argentina and the United States). To put it shortly, these "data" are false.
As to Brazilian cultural diversity, yes, we do have a diverse culture, which is completely different from having many "cultures" - which is what "multicultural" denotes. And yes, our cultural diversity is related to regional differences - and quite not to imagined hyphenated identinties, with the obvious exceptions of the German-Brazilian and Venetian-Brazilian enclaves and the Amerindian cultures.
About "the editor we are talking about", his problem was not to believe that governments should tell people what they are or are not, but to completely misread sources, imagining that they are saying "Afro-Brazilian" where they clearly say "Negros", that they decree that people "are" of African descent when they declare that they should be treated with the same preferences as those who are of African descent, etc. (and it is a long list of etc.)
Personal opinions and agendas are against Wikipedia's rules. So are State opinions and agendas. We must stick to reliable sources; sources that have direct interests in the subject are, to the least, suspect. We can, and - perhaps - should report that the Italian government (mis)believes there are 25 million people of Italian descent in Brazil; but we must make clear that this is wrong, because it is incompatible with whatever else we know about Italian immigration to Brazil. We also cannot mix up things: the Italian government says there are 25 million people of Italian descent in Brazil. It does not say there are 25 million "Italian Brazilians", which is a very different thing. We must not only chose carefully our sources, but also report correctly the sources we chose. I think the Italian government is not a reliable source in this matter, but even if we conclude otherwise, we cannot report them as a source for something they don't say, such as "25 million Italian Brazilians". Ninguém (talk) 18:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing: this is the official Italian source that reports the 25 million figure. But let's see what it actually says:
Stime pubblicate da fonti accreditate14 oscillano tra 23 e 25 milioni di oriundi, una proporzione del 15% sulla popolazione totale del Paese.
So it is not saying that there are 25 million people of Italian descent in Brazil. It is saying that "credible sources" (to be described in note 14) report the existence of 23-25 million people of Italian descent in Brazil. And what fonti accreditate report such figure?
(note 14) Raffaele di Luca, Presidente della Camara de Comercio Italo Brasileira do Rio de Janeiro, “Brasile: ottimo mercato per gli imprenditori italiani”, News Italia Press, 26 sett. 2003: “il Brasile ha almeno 25 milioni di discendenti italiani”. Francesco Lazzari, Italiani del Brasile e Sistema Italia tra sfide e opportunità”, in Affari Sociali Internazionali, XXVII, 4, 1999, p. 67: “oggi risiedono in questo gigante dell’America Latina circa 22.750.000 oriundi.”. Giulia Barbieri Farfoglia (Comites di S. Paolo), in Atti della Prima Conferenza degli Italiani nel mondo”(ADN Kronos Libri, 2001, p. 468): “su questo sottofondo fisico e pluriculturale convivono circa 25 milioni di Italiani e loro discendenti, che si sono inseriti nella società brasiliana”.
So it is the reliability of these three sources, Raffaele di Luca/Italian-Brazilian Commerce Chamber, Francesco Lazzari/Affari Sociali Internazionali, and Giulia Barbieri Farfoglia/Comites di San Paolo that is at stake, not that of the Italian government. Ninguém (talk) 21:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Italian government has used this number more than once, you can see it even on the website of the Italian Embassy in Brasilia, I have seen this number once in the website of the Italian foreign relations ministry. Now, it always says circa 25,000,000. To me it looks like you are making a big deal out of this. I don’t believe you have an anti Italian view, but I can not understand why the strong push on this. We have very different points of view on this, it is okay we are not expected to agree on everything, I believe you are a good editor and you have a lot to contribute. I think we can resolve this easily, I also believe we both should not waste time on this issue. We have a lot of articles that we can work. Using both the sources you suggested and the sources already in the article, here is what I suggest, following the rules, this is how it should look - all based on government info, either Brazil or Italy:

c. 17,000,000 - 25,000,000 (note) of whom

c. 300,000 are Italian citizens

c. 500,000 have requested Italian citizenship

(note – Estimates for people with Italian ancestry: 17,000,000 or 10% of the Brazilian population in 1998 according to IBGE (Brazilian government), 25,000,000 according to the Italian government in 2004).

Can you give me the data from IBGE? I need it to add to the sources.

Regards, Paulista01 (talk) 00:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The results of the 1998 July PME are discussed here, with appropriate tables. Another analysis can be found in José Luiz Petrucelli, A Cor Denominada, but unhappily it isn't available online.
The IBGE data aren't merely "Brazilian government"; they are data from a demographic agency, and based on actual counts on the ground, so I oppose presenting this as a government vs government issue.
But perhaps the best thing to do is to discuss the figures in the article, showing where they are compatible or incompatible with each other and the other available knowledge about immigration to Brazil and Brazilian demography. Ninguém (talk) 13:04, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ninguem,
No problem, we can discuss it in the article. Thanks for the link I will take a look today. I have been busy in the last few days and had no time to answer, I apologize. It is nice that we could work something out.

http://www.italiaoggi.com.br/migrazioni/noticias/migra_20061020a.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theuser777 (talk • contribs) 17:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regards, Paulista01 (talk) 14:50, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Section 'Prosperity' copyedited[edit]

Richard asr (talk) 10:33, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources?[edit]

What exactly are the sources that support the lead of this article?

It says:

An Italian Brazilian (Italian: Italo-Brasiliano, Portuguese: Ítalo-Brasileiro) is a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry.

A google search shows that this phrase isn't used in such sense, except in Wikipedia and its mirrors. English dictionaries do not list the phrase. The article also gives "ítalo-brasileiro" as the translation of "Italian Brazilian". A google search shows that "ítalo-brasileiro" is also not used in this sense, except in... Wikipedia and its mirrors. Portuguese dictionaries, while they do list "ítalo-brasileiro", do not define it as "a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry"; they list it only as an adjective, and define it as "relating to Italy and Brazil".

So I am proposing that this article is renamed to something that can actually be supported (as, for instance, "Brazilians of Italian descent"/"descendentes de italianos"). Objections, please? Ninguém (talk) 15:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article name Italian Brazilian is fine. There are Italian American and Italian Australian articles as well. Noboy needs to be "conected" to Italy to be Italian Brazilian. It's only an ancestry. Many native "Italians" are not very conected to Italy either, like the German-speaking minority in the extreme North (more related to Austrians). They are "Italians" anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.150.42.2 (talk) 17:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So there are no sources supporting the existence of a social phenomenon called "Italian Brazilians". Your analogies are very poor. It is quite obvious that there is something called "Italian Americans": a google search will reveal many uses of such phrase exactly in the sence it is used in Italian American. A google search for "Italian Brazilian" or "ítalo-brasileiro" shows the opposite: it is not used, except in Wikipedia. It is not notable, it has no real life relevance. Your speculation about Northern Italians being more related to Austria seems another invention (where is the source for that?), but is completely irrelevant anyway: they are "Italians" because they are Italian citizens; "Italian Brazilians" are nor Italians neither Italian citizens.

Where is the source for the lead? Ninguém (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly oppose. There are hundreds of Portuguese language sources that use the term "Ítalo-Brasileiro", for example: Mão biônica funciona com sucesso em ítalo-brasileiro, Centro Cultural Italo-Brasileiro de São Carlos, Círculo Ítalo-Brasileiro de Santa Catarina, Grupo Folclórico Ítalo-Brasileiro Santa Felicidade, UFMG: Curso ítalo-brasileiro em Direito do Trabalho, Colegio Ítalo Brasileiro, etc. It is the same as Italian American, Italian Argentine, Italian Canadians, Italian Chilean, Italian Peruvian, Italo-Venezuelans, Italian Lebanese, Italian Australian, Italian Egyptians, etc. It makes no sense renaming this article or changing the lead. Limongi (talk) 19:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of the sources you cite, only one (Mão biônica funciona com sucesso em ítalo-brasileiro) uses the term in a similar way - probably because it is a translation from Italian. And it certainly isn't an article about "Italian Brazilians"; it is an article about bionics. The "Italian Brazilian" in question, anyway, seems to live in Italy, which would mean he is quite connected to Italy, if not to Italian culture. The other sources have nothing to do with "Italian Brazilians"; they use "ítalo-brasileiro" as an adjective that applies to colleges, conferences, symposions, schools, relations, etc - not as a substantive that designates a set of people, like in this article. This is the way the word is used in Brazil, completely different of its use in the United States. We shouldn't be using analogies to other Wikipedia articles (which aren't reliable sources anyway). Half of these seem to me outright inventions ("Italian Peruvian", "Italo-Venezuelans", "Italian Lebanese", "Italian Egyptians", which I very much doubt refer to any real demographic phenomenon). If there is any reliable source about the set of people described in this article that calls them "Italian Brazilian" or "ítalo-brasileiros", then I agree it should stay as it is. But it is quite unlikely. Ninguém (talk) 20:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article is in English, not in Portuguese. They use Italian American, and Italian Brazilian as well. Many Italian Americans are not connected to Italy either. It only refers to ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.150.42.2 (talk) 01:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If it only refers to ancestry, what is the problem with "Brazilians of Italian descent"?

There are still no sources for the lead statement. Provide one, the discussion ends. Ninguém (talk) 02:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And, of course, it is easy to prove that it is not "just ancestry". Here is what Italian American says:

Italian Americans are the fourth largest European ethnic group in the United States.

So, at least for Wikipedia, Italian Americans are an ethnic group - not "just an ancestry". If this article talks about something that is "just ancestry", why does it strive to clonate an article about an ethnic group? Ninguém (talk) 15:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly oppose I am not going to waste my time with this discussion again, the editor Ninguem is constantly trying to sabotage this article.. The term is widely used, and he knows it, he is playing games again. Ciao. Paulista01 (talk) 14:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have found hundreds of sources with the term Italian-Brazilian, here are a few:
Revisioning Italy: national identity and global culture By Beverly Allen, Mary J. Russo
The Rough guide to Brazil
The Cambridge History of Latin American Literature: Brazilian literature ... By Roberto González Echevarría, Enrique Pupo-Walker —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulista01 (talk • contribs) 14:49, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, Paulista01. The sources you provided clearly reference Italian Brazilian. Furthermore, there are a good number of Portuguese language sources that use the term "Italo-Brasileiro" or "Italobrasileiro". As I pointed out above, similar terms are widely used throughout Wikipedia (Italian Argentine, Italian Australian, etc). There is no point whatsoever in this discussion. Ninguém has claimed ownership of the article and has continuously erased and reverted the contributions of other editors. If this attitude continues, I will request admin intervention. Limongi (talk) 16:17, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The point is not to find sources that have the phrase "Italian Brazilian", but sources that say, or strongly imply, this:

An Italian Brazilian is a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry.

Do any of the above say something similar? Ninguém (talk) 15:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see the first of the sources cited above:

Revisioning Italy: national identity and global culture By Beverly Allen, Mary J. Russo

It uses the expression "Italian Brazilian" three times. The first (page 214) and the third (page 229) fall into pages that are not actually accessible to the reader; very short, and perhaps uncontextual cites are provided. Here is the first:

... in an Italian-Brazilian household in São Paulo in the early twentieth century, as a central text, this essay explores ideas about national definition, ...

It mentions an "Italian-Brazilian" household; for what I can grasp from the rest of the book, this would be the household in which Zelia Gattai lived when a child, with her parents, both of them children of Italian immigrants. I don't think this makes the case that all Brazilians of Italian descent constitute a group called "Italian Brazilians".

The third one goes like this:

It is within this context that eight-year-old, third-generation, Italian-Brazilian Zelia Gattai proclaimed, "we felt ourselves to be wholly Brazilian ...

So this sentence directly classifies an eight-year-old grandaughter of Italian immigrants, living within what this book calls an "Italian community", an "Italian-Brazilian". Which, while isn't a clear statement that all Brazilians of Italian descent are "Italian Brazilian", could be taken as some indication that the author reasons within this conceptual frame. But, what if Zelia Gattai was fifth, not third generation? Or if she descended from Italian immigrants on one side, but not on the other? Would she be "Italian Brazilian" in the opinion of this author? The answer is, we don't know, and this book does not allow us to determine it. How is it going to be used as a source to support the idea expressed in the lead of this article?

On the other hand, the author is directly contradicted by the "subject" of her study, who claims "we" (she and her sister) "felt ourselves to be wholly Brazilian". Which seems to imply that at least some (unmixed third generation, i.e., very close to original immigrants) Brazilians of Italian descent do not consider themselves "Italian Brazilians". Who is right here?

The second, and only that can be actually read in its context (page 227), is the following:

Zelia writes that for her the early part of the evenings (in anarchist meetings at Classes Laboriosas, a working class club in São Paulo - my note) was the most exciting because the children wre employed to hack the new issues of newspapers and journals, such as La Laterna, an anticlerical journal, or La Difesa, a socialist journal, and there were raffles for prizes and books to support the publications and to pay for the rent of the hall. "(My sister) Vera and I were part of the group of vendors. There were two competing groups for sales and artistic participation: that of the Italian girls, and that of the Spanish. We, logically, were part of the first group, despite the fact that we felt ourselves wholly Brazilian (embora nos sentíssemos completamente brasileiras). But this is how we were designated."
That Zelia should identify herself as "wholly Brazilian" indicates her generational location in the Da Col-Gattai family. By the time she was participating in the cultural congresses, her family was prospering, and had an established place in the Italian-Brazilian community. Her identification as Brazilian also reflected her schooling: whereas the earlier generation of immigrants and their firstborn children rarely attained more than a rudimentary education, Zelia was not onli in school but in a Brazilian school.

So "Italian-Brazilian" is used here in relation to a "community", not in relation to individual people. That such "community" - as long as we can talk of a Gemeinschaft in a bourgeoning capitalist society - was "Italian-Brazilian" is beyond doubt, as it was composed of Italian citizens living in Brazil, Italian-born Brazilian citizens, and children born to the former categories. That the individuals in such community were "Italian Brazilians" is a different issue, that the text does not make clear. What it makes clear is that this is not the "identity" chosen by Zelia and Vera Gattai (and so, again, that not all Brazilians of Italian descent consider themselves "Italian-Brazilian").

The other two sources you mention barely deserve an appreciation. The Rough guide to Brazil uses the phrase "Italian-Brazilian" only once, to tell us that an expensive restaurant in Rio de Janeiro, Marius Crustáceos, serves "Italian-Brazilian" cuisine (The menu is varied, though "Italian-Brazilian" styles dominate). Nothing about "Italian Brazilians" as a collective name for all Brazilians of Italian ancestry.


The Cambridge History of Latin American Literature: Brazilian literature ... By Roberto González Echevarría, Enrique Pupo-Walker also uses the phrase "Italian-Brazilian" only once, to describe a person:

Created in 1948 by the Italian-Brazilian industrialist Franco Zampari (1898-1966), the TBC (Teatro Brasileiro de Comédia, my note) confirmed what was becoming clear ever since the success of the Teatro de Brinquedo and the Teatro do Estudante do Brasil: that the ailing commercial theatre would be savaged by the new ideas and talent of the amateur groups.

So here we have one individual being called "Italian-Brazilian". But there is absolutely no attempt to define this category; it sounds like a nonce-word, something shorter to say than "Italian-born Brazilian industrialist Franco Zampari" or "industrialist Franco Zampari, an Italian immigrant in Brazil". Besides the obvious fact that Zampari himself was an immigrant, born in Italy, and as such an Italian citizen at least until naturalisation - not a Brazilian-born Brazilian citizen of distant, or non-exclusive, Italian descent - I don't see how this can be in any way construed as a statement that "An Italian Brazilian is a person born in Brazil of Italian ancestry". Ninguém (talk) 17:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The book 'A game of mirrors: the changing face of ethno-racial constructs and language in the Americas' clearly defines the term Italian-Brazilian: "Italo-Brasileiro (Italian-Brazilian, Brazilian of Italian ancestry)". Limongi (talk) 19:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then source the sentence with this citation. Ninguém (talk) 20:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Post world-war II immigration[edit]

This article gives most of its focus to immigration around 1900 because thats when most of the immigration happened. However, tens of thousands of italians immigrated to Brazil after WWII in programs that the Italian government agreed to to ease tensions after the war. (Im getting my info from Italians in Brazil: The Post World War II Experience by Gloria La Cavaz). Doesn't this deserve mentioning? NealJMD (talk) 23:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Worker in Germany[edit]

In Germany many Italian Ice and Pizza restaurants had big problems to find workers on weekend. The Italian Director can look for Employment Service working in a restaurant with a EU Passport, like Brazilians with a second passport from the Republic Italy. The orders to clean the restaurant will be given in Italy- The missing German language can be learned Job.

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