Talk:Italy for the Italians

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Article name[edit]

@Doc 95: Would "Italy for the Italians" not be a more appropriate title? "Italy to the Italians" does not make sense in English. Number 5 7 22:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually not. As noted by User:Doc95, the name Italia agli Italiani is properly translated into "Italy to the Italians" (or, alternatively, "Italy to Italians"), meaning that Italy belongs to Italians and has to be given (back) to Italians. It is a typical theme of a far-right party, isn't it? --Checco (talk) 09:08, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Checco: Whilst it might be a technically correct translation on a word-by-word, "Italy to the Italians" is not a valid construct in English; the closest correct version would be "Italy for the Italians", which has the meaning you express (i.e. Italy belongs to the Italians) and is, as you say, a typical theme for nationalist/far-right groups. See e.g. Britain for the British, Ireland for the Irish, Australia for the Australians etc. Cheers, Number 5 7 19:47, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see Autospark shares this opinion as they've moved the article to that title (although it's since been moved back). If you're still in disagreement, then I think an RM may be needed. Number 5 7 19:52, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No problem with a RM and, by the way, this article's name is not a big deal to me. However, I really don't see how "Italy to Italians" would be incorrect. Isn't "giving Italy (back) to Italians" a valid construct? It seems to me that it is. --Checco (talk) 01:01, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Giving Italy to Italians" is fine. However, once you omit "Giving", it no longer works. Number 5 7 11:20, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 February 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Italy to the Italians → Italy for the Italians – The current name is not a correct construct in English. The closest correct translation of the name would be "Italy for the Italians", as per this article ("“L’Italia agli Italiani” (Italy for the Italians)"). Number 5 7 11:31, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Admittedly, I am not an English native, but if "giving Italy to Italians" is fine, then also "Italy to Italians" is. --Checco (talk) 13:23, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Checco: As a native English speaker, I can tell you that it really isn't fine. I'm not sure why you're so unwilling to accept this? Number 57 13:35, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I find hard to understand how a part of sentence which is correct can be incorrect. It seems illogical to me. --Checco (talk) 13:44, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Because as a party name, it's a standalone statement; "Italy for the Italians" (or Britain for the British, Ireland for the Irish etc etc) is a standard way of making this statement, as noted in our earlier discussion and the link above. On the otherhand, "Italy to the Italians" does not work on its own. I appreciate that English can seem illogical (I used to teach it to non-native speakers), but unfortunately that's simply how the language is. Number 5 7 13:49, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per Number 57, it makes grammatical sense in English, and mirrors typical nationalist slogans like "Britain for the British" and so on.--Autospark (talk) 17:02, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Is there any evidence that it has any common English name (as opposed to a translation being provided in brackets after the name for the sake of those who don't speak Italian)? If not, then Italia agli Italiani would be more appropriate under WP:UE. We don't translate for the sake of it. We use the name that is in commonest use in reliable English-language sources, whether that be English or non-English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:58, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
support proper grammar and syntax in English. Artix Kreiger (talk) 15:59, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
support move. Can't find much english language sources ("If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader.") so translate. 14:58, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.