Talk:Jacob O. Meyer

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The improvements... I have created this on the evidence I have from wikipedia and my own knowledge on the subject, but I propose someone with more knowledge on this subject expand on it. Some historical information on Meyer would be good. I know that most of Elder Jacob Meyers children are in the Assemblies of Yahweh so whoever started this page has got that wrong. That's what caught my attention on the recent changes list.

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Glad somebody started a page on Jacob O. Meyer. It would be helpful for somebody with inside knowledge to explain the titles that precede Meyer's name. Pete unseth (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

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Glad somebody inserted the list of his books. It would be even more useful if they were listed out with dates, etc. The statement that some of his writings "have been quoted by authoritative sources and religious denominations" calls for citing examples.

I will get on that one. I think the dates are on the AOY page so I wil copy them over. Working together In Citer (talk) 09:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The sentence about elders is unclear. If somebody could clarify the grammar, that would be an improvement. What is the name of the other elder, his son? Was he merely "nominated" to be constable, or did he serve in that capacity?

I don't have that sort of information at present, but I will inquire about it. In Citer (talk) 09:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I am startled that the information about his education and ordination has been removed from an earlier version of the article. It was some of the only information from a published source. As a history buff, I am reinserting it.Pete unseth (talk) 13:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I have now endorsed your material. In Citer (talk) 09:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

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I am disappointed that almost all of the sources cited are Meyer's own writings. This does not help with the issue of Notability. Any outside published sources are a welcome addition to this article. Pete unseth (talk) 00:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I think some sources were removed earlier so I will see what I can find. Working together In Citer (talk) 09:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

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I am disappointed that words have been changed especially in regards to "paganized general terms". I am not so keen on the yellow template box at the bottom of the page either. I think it needs to be a different colour. Is there any chance of a change in colour? In Citer (talk) 09:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

In relation to words, I had inserted "theological" with "liberalism" to distinguish it from any other kind of liberalism, e.g. financial, political, etc. However, the NPOV guideline makes it very difficult to allow Meyer's conviction to be stated as an agreed, accepted standard. We can all agree that it was his clear conviction that the terms were "paganized", though not all will agree that the terms actually are such. Some previous questions remain: his titles, his son's name, did he serve as constable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pete unseth (talk • contribs) 20:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Why suppose that the liberalism that was creeping in the denomination, simply theological? In Citer (talk) 14:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Ricky not helping

A user admin called ricky, a christian, has made some ghastly changes to the article, removing images, paragraphs etc. My talks arent working. Any one else who feels these edits worsenify the articel, please say so. Ricky complains that he doesnt want a edit war but whenever some one changes the article, he changes it back with a really bad excuse. IMO: You are not improving the article. 212.103.241.89 (talk) 12:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring the incivility and the serious lack of good faith, a simple check on my user page should tell you that I'm not a Christian. If you want to actually discuss the article, fine, but I'm having a hard time understanding what you are doing deleting three of Meyer's works from the Bibliography. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

References

Can someone please explain exactly what all the references to, for example, "Meyer, J. O. (2/1986)", "Meyer, J. O. (4/1999)", etc. are to? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:01, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the need for contributors to clarify their use of this style of citing Meyer's work. Recent edits by Bender235 perpetuate this unclear form of citation. Pete unseth (talk) 03:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Sir & Elder

There seems to be no evidence that this person is or ever has been a knight or baronet in any jurisdiction. Can we remove the redirects, quote attributions and other elements which refer to him as 'Sir Elder Jacob Meyer' (also implying that 'Elder' is his name, rather than another title)? Thanks. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:38, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The use of "Elder" has reappeared, Jan. 25, 2011. This does not seem the best way to write in an encyclopedia. For example, the article about "Bishop" Spong does not repeatedly refer to him by this title, nor does the article abut "Senator" Joseph Lieberman. An introductory use of the title is enough, especially when neither the source nor significance of this title is explained. I suggest that Adviser1989 revert most of the "Elder" insertions. Peaceably,Pete unseth (talk) 01:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

POV/tone tag explanations

This article basically reads like a fan's glowing biography of the man. It has lots of references, but all are from things Meyer or his related groups have written. We need some third-party sources here, and to tone down some of the reverence; just like in any other political or religious leader's article, he doesn't need to be called by his full name or "Elder Meyer" every time he's mentioned. Some explanations of doctrinal differences would be good, too, rather than just calling the non-Assembly of Yahweh groups wrong and leaving it at that. --Xanzzibar (talk) 10:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Don't try to reason with AOY members. Having been an AOY member myself, I'm saying that the AOY is a cult that worships Jacob Meyer more so than Yahweh. They didn't even appoint a new Presiding Elder after he died. They listen to Jacob Meyer's recorded cassette tapes. These people will never understand why Jacob Meyer's writings aren't credible sources because they are dogmatic and irrational. You can't reason with crazy. 174.130.31.61 (talk) 16:51, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Nothing crazy about commandment keeping and Elder Jacob O. Meyer (OBM) was a commandment keeper. The AOY listen to his sermons because he is the founder of the Assemblies of Yahweh and an excellent example of a man who kept the faith to death. As for credibility, I've found his literature is very accurate and enlightening. I hope to make some changes to the article in the near future. Some of the info is outdated. In Citer (talk) 13:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Have begun to edit this in the general direction of encyclopedia style. At present it still reads as if written by and for Mr Meyer's followers. Brocach (talk) 01:02, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Ricky - The AOY is NOT part of the SNM

I understand that you have written in the article that Elder Meyer is part of the SNM. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jacob_O._Meyer&oldid=608190095 ) It isn't. The source you used is incorrect. In Citer (talk) 13:18, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Then kindly find a better source to the contrary. Your say-so isn't good enough to controvert sources, especially when the AoY site itself refers to being part of the movement. --Xanzzibar (talk) 19:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

In a sense, both of the previous editors are correct since it is difficult to draw boundaries on a a movement, saying exactly who is in and who is out. Possibly, to some insiders (such as In Citer), the borders are clear and Meyer and company are not part of the movement. But to the great majority of people, any group that makes it a point of distinction to preserve and pronounce sacred names is definitely part of the sacred name movement. I strongly believe it is proper to identify Meyer and his organization as being part of the movement, but those who disagree may want to find an appropriate way to say that he did not share any informal or formal ties with other groups within the broader movement.Pete unseth (talk) 21:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

If I, or another, were to find an AOY source which clearly states that the AOY is not part of the SNM, would that do? In Citer (talk) 11:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Provided it passes WP:RS, it would be a start. --Xanzzibar (talk) 12:26, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Here we go again. A movement has no membership list; it is a movement, not an organization. Those inside it may have more specific or less specific criteria for what it means to be part of the movement. Also, those outside a movement may have different criteria for assessing who is in and who is not. By the criteria used by outsiders, Meyer is part of the movement. It might help if we were told what the specific criteria separate Meyer from the movement. Pete unseth (talk) 13:37, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

It's very obvious that the AOY is not part of the SNM. Not only have they stated this in their sermons and literature, but to be part of the SNM you have to go to unity conferences which the AOY does not do. Only the SNM groups go to these conferences each month In Citer (talk) 18:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

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"Three fold cord"

The article currently speaks of the present leadership as the three fold cord, but also says the term is no longer used to refer to leadership. It is not clear to me, but these two sentences seem to contradict each other. Have I misunderstood? Or has the situation changed over time? I think this needs to be clarified. Pete unseth (talk) 13:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

There is no three fold cord. You can remove that from the article. The Assemblies of Yahweh is led by Elder Meyer's faithful children Elder Jonathan S. Meyer and Deacon Nathaniel A. Meyer. In Citer (talk) 18:49, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Jacob the magician

So Xanzzibar has reverted edits by me to remove Jacob the magician from this article. Just because Jacob Meyer and Jacob magician have the same first name does not mean that it should be included in the article. If first names were anything to go by with related persons then they are a whole other bunch of people we should include too. Xanzzibar has said that he has discussed this on the talk page in his edit summary but politely, that's an outright lie. If he doesn't allow me to remove this from the page I will get others involved as I don't suppose having an edit war over something so obviously wrong is going to be productive for any of us In Citer (talk) 18:56, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

First, don't make threats and personal attacks. You're not showing much good faith here. What was discussed was the Sacred Name movement, which you know since you were involved in the last dispute over this and commented on the discussion we had in the very edit you added this comment. Secondly, that hat dab is there to provide navigation to a similarly named person, another Jacob from the Philadelphia area. It doesn't imply any sort of connection between the two. These are common on Wikipedia to aid navigation. You can make the case that it's not warranted here, and I'd probably agree, but threatening an edit war over it is ill-advised. --Xanzzibar (talk) 19:20, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Xanzzibar. I just stated the obvious. It wasn't supposed to be a threat. Had I reverted what you had done it might have turned in to an edit war. I also have always stated emphatically that the AOY is not part of the SNM. I wrote it above in 'Ricky - The AOY is NOT part of the SNM' section. I'm going to remove the Jacob magician individual from this article if you don't have a problem with that. It makes no sense whatsoever. Meyer did not come from Philadelphia anyway. The only thing they have common is their first name which does not warrant a hat dab. I could probably find other Jacobs from that area, it doesn't warrant a hat dab. If they had the same first and surname, then yes, I would understand. In Citer (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, I'll reiterate this here: you still haven't addressed the key issue from the previous discussion. There's a reliable source saying it's part of the SNM. Your say-so otherwise is not good enough. Provide a secondary source of better quality if you intend to change it. --Xanzzibar (talk) 17:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry Xanzzibar but I fail to see your reasoning here. In the article it says: "and as of 2011 was the largest organization within the Sacred Name Movement.[1] " and then later that "There were at least two attempts to oust Meyer from his leadership of the Assemblies of Yahweh, and members defected to other sects such as those of the Sacred Name Movement." So what is it to be? Is the SNM part of the AOY or isn't it, because it sounds to me like there's some confusion here? Are you going to let me remove the former statement or the latter. They both can't be correct. But for the sake of this article, I'm going to go away and find that source where the AOY clearly identify themselves as not being in the SNM. The AOY aren't even Chr-stians, so how can they be part of the SNM? They believe in the Bible yes, but they don't call themselves Chr-stians ever. That in itself should be reason enough to understand they are not part of the SNM. Seems like I need to find a source that says that red is the colour red. In Citer (talk) 17:59, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Two things. First, the defection line is likely just poorly worded. Perhaps it meant to say that they left for other sects within the movement. Perhaps it's relying on knowledge not in the article, such as that the AoY was once part of the movement but left it. I'm not the one who wrote it, I couldn't say for sure. Second, it's the uncited one, so you're free to remove that (though a citation and cleanup is obviously preferred). --Xanzzibar (talk) 18:36, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for allowing the removal of the magician, 'Jacob Philadelphia' from the article. Also, thanks for allowing me to remove the above statement. I still have to find that source, but I will find it, YW. In Citer (talk) 18:41, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Why is this article so short

Elder Jacob O. Meyer had a full life and many, many good works yet all that is devoted to his life is a paragraph in 'Early Life'. I'm going to try to improve this article again, here is me just explaining what I plan on doing. The article is too short for someone who lived such an extensive and full life. Sorry, but it is. In Citer (talk) 18:03, 18 November 2019 (UTC) So I had a long list of things Elder Meyer did in his lifetime but I won't include it in the article since I don't want to make the article too long, but here's the list I wrote out. It didn't take me long. Maybe I could aspects from that list in to the article at some point In Citer (talk) 11:43, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Editor2020

Hi Editor. Would you mind explaining why you removed the word 'peacefully' from the article here. In the summary box, all you wrote was 'really?'. They are many articles which clearly define men and women dying peacefully i.e. here, here and here , so if there's something I'm missing here and I don't get an objection, I will put this word back in to the article. As a courtesy, it would be nice if you follow WP:ETIQ and discussed before you reverted, as I do. In Citer (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

This is supposed to be an encyclopedia article, written in an encyclopedic WP:tone, not a hagiography. If it is used on other biography articles it should be removed there also. As always, if you find an academic article, i.e. not from an associated source, that uses this verbiage then go ahead. Editor2020 (talk) 21:04, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:ETIQ, I normally try to explain my edits in my Edit Summary. This reversion seemed so obvious to me that I was too terse. My apologies. Editor2020 (talk) 21:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Editor2020. So I'm failing to understand why you removed the word peacefully when he did die peacefully. If you could explain it would be appreciated. In Citer (talk) 01:00, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

I removed it because the addition does not improve the article. It is one of those words that are not found in serious encyclopedias. Also, unless you have a WP:Reliable Source that says he died peacefully its WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Editor2020 (talk) 04:40, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry Editor but I think you are nit-picking here. Here's just a small list of Wikipedia articles that need changing if the term died peacefully is not encyclopaedic:

• Sam Pearson
• Tony Hibbert (British Army officer)
• Janice Adair
• Tony Tremlett (priest)
• Robin Carnegie
• Maria Goretti
• Indrechtach mac Muiredaig
• Robert Vahey
• Philip Goodhart
• Stephen of Piperi etc.

Further, in his Orbituary, which can be found here, it clearly states that he died peacefully. For the life of me I can't understand why you, an editor who has been on Wikipedia for years, would have a problem with the term 'died peacefully' with just this article. In Citer (talk) 16:27, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Furthermore Editor your reasoning that the term 'died peacefully' is not encyclopaedic is false. Even on the most notable Encyclopaedia's like Britannica the term 'died peacefully' is used such as in the Joseph Haydn article. In Citer (talk) 10:25, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Head Deaconess Ruth F. Meyer

I would like to include a paragraph mentioning his wife & Head Deaconess, Ruth F. Meyer. Seems only right as most articles of biographies mention the spouse in some way. I could add a source from the Sacred Name Broadcaster In Citer (talk) 19:13, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

The 'Teaching' section

Could do with a clean up, but I think it's a useful section to have in the article. I have categorised sermons by the following main subjects:

• Commandment-keeping. (This was the central theme of all sermons.)
• Spirituality
• Love
• Faith
• Prophesy
• Piety

And then further, a heading on "instructions" Meyer left behind for the Assemblies of Yahweh to follow which are adhered to this day by the organisation. I plan on having a bullet list under each heading of sermons Elder Meyer preached in each of these categories and about a paragraph on each explaining the teaching. Not sure if I should put 'piety' or 'purity'. If anyone has any feedback you can leave a message below. In Citer (talk) 14:08, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Edits to the article by Editor2020

Thank you for editing the article Editor2020. I do have a small problem with your edits though. Mainly, deleting the reference to Elder Meyer as an Elder is problematical. I can use a source which explains that Elder Meyer was how Jacob O. Meyer was referred to and known, even to this day. Further in the section above called 'Sir & Elder' it was agreed that Elder should be used to reference to him at least initially. Perhaps if you were to discuss such changes to the article first, I could have brought this to your attention. I will therefore put Elder back in the Lead if I don't get an objection. In Citer (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

It's in the article five times (six if you include the short description). Where else would you like to place it? Editor2020 (talk) 04:20, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Editor2020. As explained above, the introductory sentence "Jacob O. Meyer (November 11, 1934 – April 9, 2010)" should read "Elder Jacob O. Meyer (November 11, 1934 – April 9, 2010)" especially as this is what people called him. No-one called him Jacob Meyer in the ministry, they always used his title. In Citer (talk) 09:00, 13 December 2019 (UTC) Just wanted to mention WP:COMMONNAME. Based on this policy alone, Elder Jacob O. Meyer, or Elder Meyer should be used. I'll change the lead to reflect this, but if I have a consensus on this, I'd like to change the name Meyer to Elder Meyer is all instances in the article. In Citer (talk) 09:10, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I believe this is covered by this from WP:HONORIFICS:

"In general, honorific prefixes—styles and honorifics in front of a name—in Wikipedia's own voice should not be included, but may be discussed in the article. In particular, this applies to:

styles and honorifics derived from a title, position or activity, including The Most Noble, The Most Honourable, The Right Honourable, and The Honourable;

styles and honorifics related to royalty, clergy, and sainthood, such as Her Majesty, His Holiness, The Reverend, and The Venerable. Clergy should be named as described in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy)"

but I would welcome a 2nd opinion (if anyone else is watching this page). Editor2020 (talk) 00:55, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Editor2020. I think this is a debate that has been had multiple times within Wikipedia regarding honorific prefixes. However, the article MOS:HONORIFIC clearly states that

"Where an honorific is so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English reliable sources without it, it should be included."

Thus the spirit of this exception is that if that name is the one by which they were most commonly known, it should be included, like in the article Mother Teresa. Elder Meyer or Elder Jacob O. Meyer was the name by which Jacob O. Meyer was commonly known. They are news articles even proving this, such as in the Reading Eagle In Citer (talk) 10:08, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

While that usage may be commonly used by AOY members they are a very minor splinter group and I don't believe it is the case in the non-AOY world. The addition of honorifics is very common in many religious groups, but we don't use them on Wikipedia. Editor2020 (talk) 02:00, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Editor. The Assemblies of Yahweh is not a splinter group in the sense that it has not broken off from a bigger group. But to continue on with this, Mother Teresa was known by that name in a religious context, therefore I feel it is acceptable to use such honorifics. Furthermore, even non-AOY people called Elder Meyer, 'Elder Meyer'. In all of the books written by Meyer, which have been distributed to AOY and non-AOY persons, the name Elder Meyer is used. Also you might want to consider the cases with the term 'rabbi' which is also an honorific. They are numerous Wikipedia articles where rabbi is used to refer to those Jews who were known by that name in the congregation, such as Rabbi Meir. In Citer (talk) 12:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Sources

I'll add some sources to this article next week, YW In Citer (talk) 13:39, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Under Zions Banner

So I have uploaded the Under Zions Banner tune, the theme tune of the Assemblies of Yahweh written by Elder Meyer. Is there a way I can include it in the article? In Citer (talk) 11:52, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Ruth F Meyer

There was a section (heading) devoted to Ruth F. Meyer, Meyer's wife. I think it's important because she was instrumental in assisting the organisation when it first began, and she did myriad tasks such as secretary work. I'm thinking of introducing this section back in to the article but if they are any objections, please let me know here. I'll wait for a bit before I do so to ensure all can get back to me. In Citer (talk) 14:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)