Talk:James Deen/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Birth name
Deen was born as Bryan Rothstein. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.70.40 (talk) 13:01, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
- source? teammathi 15:39, 20 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teammathi (talk • contribs)
- In the "The Morning After Podcast Episode #14: James Deen and Traci Stumpf" he says that his real name is Bryan, but it's not Bryan Rothstein (after 24:30).[1] teammathi 12:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's Bryan Sevilla. California Birth Records confirm this. Bryan Matthew Sevilla. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 06:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, all. The Us Weekly citation gives his name as Bryan Sevilla, but there are three at the California birth certificate site, and two of them could be this Bryan Sevilla. There was no citation for his birth date in the article, and an uncited claim he was born in Pasadena. Neither of the two applicable Bryan Sevillas in the Calif. directory are born in Pasadena, so the Pasadena claim is incorrect. Before we can give his full name, we need to have a reliable-source citation for either his birth date or his place of birth, which is either Los Angeles or Santa Clara. Here's what the Calif. site says:
- SEVILLA, BRYAN MATTHEW 02/07/1986 MALE LOS ANGELES
- SEVILLA, BRYAN ALBERTO 09/22/1987 MALE SANTA CLARA
- Please note that Wikipedia disallows the unreliable wikia IMDb to be used as a reference citation. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:30, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Are Los Angeles and Santa Clara the cities or the counties? Pasadena is located in Los Angeles County so he may have been born in Pasadena. Also, there are numerous sources that say he is from Pasadena and was born February 7, 1986, I doubt all of them are wrong. teammathi 17:43, 18 June 2012 (CET)
- Oh, he also mentioned his birthday on his Twitter and blog. I can look the pages up and write them up here if you would like to read them. teammathi 17:46, 18 June 2012 (CET)
- Birthday: February 7, 1986[2][3], Birth place: Pasadena, California.[4][5] --teammathi 18:03, 18 June 2012 (CET)
- There are good, but note that he doesn't say he was born in Pasadena, just that he was raised there; there are a lot of towns close together and it's not unusual, because of where the closest or a preferred hospital would be, for someone to be born in a different town from where they were raised. I'll adjust. Good citation on the birthday! --Tenebrae (talk) 17:26, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- I am concerned about this. What if US Weekly is wrong? Their piece simply nakedly states that this person's real name is so-and-so, without an hint as to how they would know that. What if US Weekly has it wrong and we're incorrectly putting some completely unrelated person down as being this one?DeistCosmos (talk) 15:23, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
- GQ Magazine also says so and they interviewed him. teammathi 19:46, 10 July 2012 (CET)
- I am concerned about this. What if US Weekly is wrong? Their piece simply nakedly states that this person's real name is so-and-so, without an hint as to how they would know that. What if US Weekly has it wrong and we're incorrectly putting some completely unrelated person down as being this one?DeistCosmos (talk) 15:23, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
- There are good, but note that he doesn't say he was born in Pasadena, just that he was raised there; there are a lot of towns close together and it's not unusual, because of where the closest or a preferred hospital would be, for someone to be born in a different town from where they were raised. I'll adjust. Good citation on the birthday! --Tenebrae (talk) 17:26, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, all. The Us Weekly citation gives his name as Bryan Sevilla, but there are three at the California birth certificate site, and two of them could be this Bryan Sevilla. There was no citation for his birth date in the article, and an uncited claim he was born in Pasadena. Neither of the two applicable Bryan Sevillas in the Calif. directory are born in Pasadena, so the Pasadena claim is incorrect. Before we can give his full name, we need to have a reliable-source citation for either his birth date or his place of birth, which is either Los Angeles or Santa Clara. Here's what the Calif. site says:
Close paraphrase
An anonymous editor raised concerns about this article at WP:CP. The "early life" section is very closely paraphrased from GQ. This can be a problem under both our copyright policies and our guideline on plagiarism.
While facts are not copyrightable, creative elements of presentation – including both structure and language – are. The section comes very close to a simple abridgment of the article. For examples of close paraphrasing, consider the following: The source says:
- He had some drug escapades in junior high. He spent a couple of years in outpatient rehab.
The article says:
- He had some drug escapades in Junior High School and spent a few years in outpatient rehab.
The source says:
- Relations with his parents remained reasonably cordial.
The article says:
- Relations with his parents remained cordial.
The source says:
- At around 17, he moved in with his father. He was working at a Starbucks and taking classes at a community college...
The article says:
- At 17, Deen moved in with his father. He was working at a Starbucks and taking classes at a community college.
As a website that is widely read and reused, Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously to protect the interests of the holders of copyright as well as those of the Wikimedia Foundation and our reusers. Wikipedia's copyright policies require that the content we take from non-free sources, aside from brief and clearly marked quotations, be rewritten from scratch. So that we can be sure it does not constitute a derivative work, this article should be revised to separate it further from its source. The essay Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing contains some suggestions for rewriting that may help avoid these issues. The article Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches also contains some suggestions for reusing material from sources that may be helpful, beginning under "Avoiding plagiarism". Please let me know at my talk page if you have questions about this. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Recent activism
As I recall, Deen was recently in a press conference with Stoya and others opposing attempts to require condom use in the pornographic film industry. Here is press of this. Is it notable? DeistCosmos (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Height
Most sources, except Wikipedia, say he's 5'7", but here it says he's 5'8"? Which one is correct? Baracuda1337 (talk) 22:10, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
His ambition since nursery?
So under the section Career it says, "According to Deen, performing in pornographic films was his ambition since he was in kindergarten." And then nothing more is said. This sentence by itself sounds very strange and needs some explanation. I thought perhaps the original editor misinterpreted a joke in the interview cited. So I checked it. Here's the quote.
Kindergarten. I remember I was walking home one day, and I found this magazine, I don't know, a Hustler or something, with people banging in it. I was enamored by it. I was like, I want to do this. I actually got in trouble in third or fourth grade. They were asking everybody what they wanted to be when they grew up, and I said I wanted to be a porn star. They didn't like that. They thought I was being a dick. I was like, "I'm not being a dick, it's just what I want to be."
Something more should be made of this in the article. Something could be made of the text after that quote too.
rkaup (talk) 17:46, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Buys a "softball team"
http://business.avn.com/company-news/James-Deen-Purchases-Softball-Team-589521.html Hah! Love it... --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 21:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Allegation that James Deen raped Stoya
What About Holly Lee claiming she was choked into unconsciousness by him? The article omits that http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/30/tori-lux-james-deen-assaulted-me-too.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.125.7 (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
What about farrah abrahams? She's accused him now. Another employee has now claimed assault, she says he chocked her. Where are those accusations in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.125.7 (talk) 19:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
User:Morbidthoughts has graciously invited me to discuss his removal of:
On Nov. 28, 2015, BuzzFeed reported that Stoya tweeted about "people idolizing the guy who raped you," and followed that up with a tweet stating:
James Deen held me down and fucked me while I said no, stop, used my safeword. I just can't nod and smile when people bring him up anymore.[6][7]
This is now additionally reported in the UK's Daily Mail,[8] which ought to seal any question as to sourcing. But I'll leave it to Morbidthoughts to add it back to the page. Pandeist (talk) 05:32, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think the Daily Mail is an English tabloid per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_163#Reliability_of_the_Daily_Mail. I have posted the allegations to the BLP noticeboards[9] so that other users can gauge what is appropriate to add. Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:39, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, very serious. This is an accusation of rape, and though we ought never be quick to judge an accusation, we equally ought never be quick to dismiss its existence. Pandeist (talk) 05:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- WP:BLP, which is policy and therefore mandatory, states that "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." Surely, two tweets reported on by the notoriously sensationalistic Daily Mail constitutes poor sourcing. We do not need to report the very latest "hot" news. We are an encyclopedia, not tomorrow's bird cage liner. If Deen is arrested, indicted and convicted, we can report those facts at that time. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- So barring all those things happening, now, we act as if no accusation exists? Pandeist (talk) 06:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- You can act however you want as an individual, Pandeist. You can blog about it, tweet about it or tell your friends about it. Based on the quality of the sources we now have, I believe that adding it to these biographies is a BLP violation at this time. Things may change. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:18, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Two tweets by one of the parties involved with no additional information & no chance for the other party to respond seriously seems like jumping the gun on an accusation this serious. Wikipedia's not a part of the 24 hour news cycle that has to be immediately up to the second to date on every thing like this, waiting a bit for Deen to be able to respond, real media to talk about it, and Stoya to get back from her away time (December 17th) so she can comment further seems prudent. JamesG5 (talk) 06:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't really think that it's reasonable to say we need to wait before incorporating an allegation into the article when it's clearly a noteworthy aspect of this persons personal life. Sure, its an aspect that can be expanded upon in the future as more information comes to light but it's not as though this allegation is going to go away, nor is it something minor or insignificant in terms of Deen's personal life. As such, I feel that the reinstatement of Pandeist's amendment would strengthen the article as this time, as it can always be expanded upon in the future. As for the charge that it's poorly sourced - not really. It's coming direct from the alleged victim with non-colloquial, pretty cut and dry phrasing. Just because they decided to use their personal Twitter as their medium rather than an editorial expose doesn't make the claims any more or less reliable.Guywithoutaname (talk) 07:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree and would indeed point out that whether additional news outlets cover this further is not likely reflective of any estimation of veracity, but simply of the importance accorded the people involved. Pandeist (talk) 07:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- See WP:BLPSPS & WP:BLPSELFPUB, specifically from that second one "it does not involve claims about third parties," which this clearly does. So you have 3 sources, Stoya's tweets, which the 2 policies I just quoted exclude in this case, and 2 "news" sources that fail the above quoted "reliable sources" policy AND are based solely on those tweets. At this time posting it contravenes a number of Wikipedia policies. JamesG5 (talk) 07:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I agree and would indeed point out that whether additional news outlets cover this further is not likely reflective of any estimation of veracity, but simply of the importance accorded the people involved. Pandeist (talk) 07:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't really think that it's reasonable to say we need to wait before incorporating an allegation into the article when it's clearly a noteworthy aspect of this persons personal life. Sure, its an aspect that can be expanded upon in the future as more information comes to light but it's not as though this allegation is going to go away, nor is it something minor or insignificant in terms of Deen's personal life. As such, I feel that the reinstatement of Pandeist's amendment would strengthen the article as this time, as it can always be expanded upon in the future. As for the charge that it's poorly sourced - not really. It's coming direct from the alleged victim with non-colloquial, pretty cut and dry phrasing. Just because they decided to use their personal Twitter as their medium rather than an editorial expose doesn't make the claims any more or less reliable.Guywithoutaname (talk) 07:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Two tweets by one of the parties involved with no additional information & no chance for the other party to respond seriously seems like jumping the gun on an accusation this serious. Wikipedia's not a part of the 24 hour news cycle that has to be immediately up to the second to date on every thing like this, waiting a bit for Deen to be able to respond, real media to talk about it, and Stoya to get back from her away time (December 17th) so she can comment further seems prudent. JamesG5 (talk) 06:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- You can act however you want as an individual, Pandeist. You can blog about it, tweet about it or tell your friends about it. Based on the quality of the sources we now have, I believe that adding it to these biographies is a BLP violation at this time. Things may change. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:18, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- So barring all those things happening, now, we act as if no accusation exists? Pandeist (talk) 06:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- WP:BLP, which is policy and therefore mandatory, states that "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." Surely, two tweets reported on by the notoriously sensationalistic Daily Mail constitutes poor sourcing. We do not need to report the very latest "hot" news. We are an encyclopedia, not tomorrow's bird cage liner. If Deen is arrested, indicted and convicted, we can report those facts at that time. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, very serious. This is an accusation of rape, and though we ought never be quick to judge an accusation, we equally ought never be quick to dismiss its existence. Pandeist (talk) 05:43, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
I happen to be a believer of innocent until proven guilty. 188.53.230.194 (talk) 14:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- Stoya's tweets are also a primary source, secondary & tertiary sources are preferred on WP.
- To meet WP:BLP, we need several reliable sources.
- (BTW, I also believe Stoya, but personal beliefs are not reliable sources for WP) — Lentower (talk) 14:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
As predicted, coverage continues growing -- and now it is reported in New York Magazine[10] -- which is additionally reporting that The Frisky is ending Deen's sex advice column due to the accusation, a real-world consequence. Pandeist (talk) 19:23, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- For when the allegation does make its way to the article, the editor to The Frisky not only blogged about removing Deen's advice column but also that
women I respect have since contacted me directly to say that they know of others to whom he has done the same thing
.[11] Personally, I'd suggest that a mention of allegations of rape backed up by the New York piece would be acceptable under BLP, so long as it's clear that they're only allegations at this stage. But I'm not going to spend the next few days arguing about it on here, when I would imagine that clearer RS and real-world consequences (and possibly further allegations) will arrive within that time. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 20:23, 29 November 2015 (UTC)- And now reported in Cosmopolitan as well.[12] Pandeist (talk) 21:10, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
- The degree to which the editors on this page are fighting back including a widely cited allegation is kind of disgusting.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.149.141 (talk) 17:35, 29 Novemebr 2015 (UTC)
- And now reported in Cosmopolitan as well.[12] Pandeist (talk) 21:10, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Noting that several of the sources mentioned still don't fit Wikipedia rules, however HuffPo has it posted now [13] and it includes Deen's reply. That link should likely lead any mention of this. JamesG5 (talk) 06:58, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- I also believe there is enough reliable coverage for inclusion now. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:59, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- If this is includable here is it not equally includable in Stoya's page? I re added it there following this discussion, and was reverted. Somebody missed the memo, perhaps? Pandeist (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- I'd note on her Talk page that consensus here was to add, but it doesn't need full repetition of what's here. Probably just a mention of her accusation with links to the HuffPo and Cosmo articles (best sources out of what we have, should not link to her tweets) and then a note that others have come forward since with a link here. JamesG5 (talk) 22:42, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- I had to chop down on the overextensive focus on quotes and amount of detail because of WP:UNDUE. I also replaced the weaker sources with stronger ones. Morbidthoughts (talk) 02:06, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Given the proliferation of coverage in better quality sources and reported real world consequences, I no longer oppose inclusion of this content. Things have changed. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:25, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- If this is includable here is it not equally includable in Stoya's page? I re added it there following this discussion, and was reverted. Somebody missed the memo, perhaps? Pandeist (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
This section still needs to be cleaned up. There is still too much detail about each alleged assault on the other performers and Amber Rayne has stated since that consent was not an issue in her case; she was injured due to his roughness.[1] Allegations of an assault occurring in that case is due to a source interpreting it as such. Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:06, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
References
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Tweets to/from Lorde
User:Morbidthoughts removed Special:Diff/723081368 on the grounds that it violates WP:BLP. I am unclear on what part of the BLP policy is violated; I can attempt to guess by the rather imprecise edit summary that it was either related to WP:BLPSOURCES, WP:BLPPRIMARY, or WP:BLPSPS. With regards to the first, I hope that it is not under question that Lorde did post the tweet in question, and then deleted it. If it were, then a serious reconsideration of either Twitter or the Wayback Archive as sources would be necessary. With regards to the second, it refers to WP:PRIMARY, which states that "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.". The wording I selected deliberately does not make any comment on why she may have deleted her tweet. The facts are: he sent her a tweet, she tweeted back, he tweeted back, she deleted her tweet at some point. These are easily verifiable from the sources provided. I did not, for example, state that "she has since withdrawn her support of Deen" or anything of the like. The third explicitly does not preclude the present content, since the material is in fact "written or published by the subject". It does not even violate WP:SYNTH, which was not linked from the edit summary, since it is not really two sources that are being linked, it is one source: Twitter, where she deleted a tweet to James Deen. The rest is only necessary for context. Therefore, I would ask that User:Morbidthoughts clarify the policies that are being referred to and the specific grounds for removal. ⁓ Hello71 02:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- The policy is that those tweets are self-published claims about third parties per WP:BLPSELFPUB. Further what good is a deleted tweet when you cannot properly verify them if they are not archived anywhere? Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:02, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- 1. What claim, exactly, is being made about a third party? 2. "not archived anywhere" what the arse are you on about? You don't even need to do any work; literally just click the links conveniently provided in "archiveurl". ⁓ Hello71 12:44, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- They are third parties to each other. Those tweets just demonstrate that they at one point thought each other were "fucking awesome". Any interpretation beyond that is original research. 2. The second archive link didn't work which threw me off on what it was trying to prove. 3. Further, how does a twitter conversation satisfy WP:UNDUE? Do we start documenting every twitter celebrity conversation that gets redacted without independent sourcing to demonstrate its notability? Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:24, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- 1. What claim, exactly, is being made about a third party? 2. "not archived anywhere" what the arse are you on about? You don't even need to do any work; literally just click the links conveniently provided in "archiveurl". ⁓ Hello71 12:44, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
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Continued career
It should be mentioned that although most studios don't book him anymore because of the rape allegations, he still works with very many well-known performers on his own film productions and websites. As he himself stated, he does not work anymore in California. --SamWinchester000 (talk) 01:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Warnings in regard to NPOV violations for BLP
Certain allegations against him have some weight, others are dubious at best such as Farrah Abraham's unusual allegations. Regardless we do not presume guilt here unless proven. Valoem talk contrib 19:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
2605:E000:100B:AEB:6410:3977:204C:E595 (talk) 23:36, 11 May 2020 (UTC)By all means include the following in the article " In late 2015, multiple women came forward with allegations of sexual misconduct including rape against Deen, with the most notable being his former girlfriend Joanna Angel.[7]"
....but why must it be in the summary? Yes this happened to him, but why should this define him?
On Joanna Angel's wikipedia, her allegations are barely mentioned, let alone in her summary. The presentation of this issue is clearly one-sided against James Deen. Wikipedia is meant to be impartial, not bias against individuals.
Is he Spanish or Italian descent?
I know that he's American. But, is he of Spanish or Italian descent too? His family name sounds like this.103.246.39.1 (talk) 07:46, 13 August 2021 (UTC)