Talk:Jason Todd

Lost Days

Any objections to putting the reappearance in Hush in the Red Hood section so as keep the narrative more consistent from his resurrection and training in Batman annual #25 through the Lost Days miniseries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeDee29 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

C Class?

The article just went from C to A to B back to C. What are the specific examples of further needed citation and reference to keep this A Class? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.81.195 (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps by looking through comics and going through some history of Jason and what makes him compelling --ShaneDenial17 (talk) 16:36, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Death vote

Can someone explain to me why it isn't relevant to the Jason Todd page that Denny O'Neil disclosed that about 7% of the death vote came from a single person? That is absolutely significant. One guy changed the entire scope of the poll and that information is deemed not important?

Archived

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

External link REMOVED

Even Robins Link removed due to the fact of clicking on the link I was hit by about 20 VIRUSES good job I have McAfee to remove them!!!

Even Robins: Jason Todd —Preceding unsigned comment added by C2fx (talk • contribs) 21:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Spoiler Warning - Still needed?

Is that spoiler at the top, about Jason being the New Red Hood, still needed? I know that the spoiler tag itself is consistently something people argue about, since the question of "When is a spoiler not a spoiler?" is everlasting. With a comic, that is ever evolving, I'd think it would be most applicable at the 'current' level. That is spoilers for Countdown, yes, warn me! Spoilers for the Red Hood, which happened a couple years ago, is no longer really spoiler worthy. Taking this on a case by case basis, do folks still feel that warning is needed for this article? -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 16:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I can't see a spoiler warning, about published material, lasting more that a year, year and a half tops. That is unless the writer or publisher is playing fast and loose with the readers, and stretching out a mystery. - J Greb 16:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Fictional Character history

So it turns out Jason being shot by the Mad Hatter is the street kid version and not the acrobat. It actually predates the street kid origin in Batman and is the first canonical mention of the new origin. Maybe Denny wasn't so great as an editor, he seemed to be dragging ass in the Todd era-Mike —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.76.117 (talk) 10:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I've added significantly to this. I feel that this page needed a few choice examples showing Jason's journey from street orphan to Robin to Red Hood.

I'll reference it on Wednesday night. I've got all the issues to hand.

I know it's quite comprehensive - but I don't think its any the worse for that. I can't seem to log in - but could somebody put a piture of the cover of Batman 408 in the post-crisis bit. That's a landmark image for me.

Thx

Sorry - Had loads of problems with formatting of references - I think its sorted now.

I trimmed it down because it was actually too detailed. The article needs to be geared toward the general reader, so it should strike a balance between outlying the basics and being comprehensive. WesleyDodds 03:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I appriciate what you are saying but i think perhaps you underestimate the importance of the Jason Todd character in popular culture.

Jason Todd is one of THE most imporant characters in modern graphical literature. He was Robin - of 'Batman and Robin'. He was the Robin which the American public decided to kill. The death of Robin is one of THE most talked about events in comic book history. The death of Jason Todd impacted upon Batman (perhaps the most important character in modern graphical literature) for 20 years. His recent return has been one of the most talked about events in comic books over the last five years.

Furthermore Jason Todd epitomises the impact of both DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis - in that he has two very difference origins / personalities / careers as Robin due to the first Crisis, and he has returned to life following the second Crisis.

I propose that 'the general reader' would like some information about how that character developed. And I'm sorry - I do not feel that there was too much information in my entry (Perhaps you should read the artcile on Tim Drake to see how much information people would like about a particular Robin's career - I know he has been robin for longer, but frankly his impact in comic book lore is still significantly less that Jason Todd's). The current article offers 540 words for Jason Todd's Post-Crisis career as Robin. My version provided 1550 - hardly excessive (Tim Drake's career as Robin gets over 4100 words).

This is an encyclopedic entry. People who visit this sort of article have a right/want to know which villains Jason came across during his career. They have a right/want to know that he was a successful crimefighter who met the President etc. they have a right/want to know the progression of the character from innocent boy to (possibly) anti-heroic murderer.

My article provided this information - To be honest, when I visited this site I felt that the present article provided the reader with very little information about Jason's career as Robin. The present version is simply not very good.

It uses flowery language - which expresses writers own opinion... "Unlike Grayson or the pre-Crisis Jason, the post-Crisis Jason never blossoms under Batman's tutelage" What the is this supposed to mean to anybody??? Jason never 'blossoms'?? I think perhaps that my article describes Jason's success and failures - helping the reader decide for themseleves whether the character 'blossoms'.

"Jason discovers his mother was not his biological mother" Erm....ok. However, The present article provide no infomration about Jason's parents in the first place. It is vital to his character that his father was a criminal killed by one of Batman's arch foes. This is the essence of Jason's rage - against both crime and Batman. It is vital to show how his murderous tendancies developed over time - this IS Jason's chatacter. But anyway....

The present article also uses some slightly innapropriate language for the sections..."In 1988's "A Death in the Family" storyline" This is not 'Fictional Character history' this is a pubication detail.

I appriciate that your concern is for the interests of the 'general reader'. However, I feel that for the reader of comics since before the present Grant Morrison run (such as those who remember Doug Moench's first run) there is a need for Jason's complete chcarcter history. At present this article is scarcely encyclopedic. To be frank the section on the pre-crisis Jason also needs expanding. This character existed for about four years - a lot happened to the lad.

Basically I propose re-inserting my more detailed entry and seeing whether anybody other than yourself thinks that it puts too much information on this page. I will do this on Monday unless too many people object.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.252.24 (talk • contribs)

There has to be a balance between the details that clearly explain a character, and the fanish devotion that inspires an entire website. In struggling to maintain that balance, we editors often find ourselves in conflict. I believe that's what is happening here. Jason's 'importance' is POV. He was barely mentioned in the original crisis, and only because his return to life was attributed to Superboy-Prime did his return elicit Infinite Crisis attention. We have no idea how important he'll end up being in Countdown, since they change these things on the fly, and we'd be speculating if we were to state anything beyond what has happened. Remember, this article should not be a substitute for reading the comics. Now I do agree that character development, including the predicament with his parentage, should be addressed, however there's no need to make a wholesale change when addressing one situation at a time would be more productive as a fellow editor.

I disagree about 'inappropriate' language in the Death in the Family section. It looks fine to me, and since it links to the main article, were more detail can be read, there's no need to expand it further.

I found your entry overly detailed in that it included many quotes, most of which that did not serve to do more than elaborate on what was already written, and it suffered from poor editing with your non-standard subheaders. Much of the information was useful, and some, if trimmed down to manageable portions, would be useful. I like your elaboration on Catherine Todd, and while the intro paragraph is nice, that information is already in the preceding section, and repetition is unneeded.

I'd like to work with you and see how we could better include information in the article. -- Ipstenu (talk • contribs) 18:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Great! How do you propose we go about this?

"I appriciate what you are saying but i think perhaps you underestimate the importance of the Jason Todd character in popular culture." That's not really the issue; I've made it a point to dig for real-world sources. The issue is the fictional character history. The details of the stories themselves should not be given so much importantance in an article that must br grounded in a real-world perspective. We don't need to recount everything that happened to the character, just the broad strokes. What's important about Jason Todd, broadly, is that he died and people commented on it. WesleyDodds 04:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Is that whats important? Or are the contexts, characters, stories, facts also of some importance too? I'm sorry but I simply can't make any sense of your argument.

Should we sum up the entire Red-Hood saga as - Jason returned from the dead and people commented on it?

Again, I feel the need to explain that just because something happened 20 years ago it is not of less encyclopedic value than that which is happening at the moment. Historic occurances/storylines are every bit as interesting/important to document as present day ones, and should be given equal weighting. I do not mean to patronise, but I would hope that you can understand this concept before removing masive chunks of information from a wikipedia article.

"Should we sum up the entire Red-Hood saga as - Jason returned from the dead and people commented on it?" Yes, pretty much, for the reason that people can (and should) read the comics themselves. We've had problems with overly long plot synopsis on other articles before. Aside from hindering readability for unfamiliar readers, they can sometime verge on violating copyright. WesleyDodds 20:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

"Should we sum up the entire Red-Hood saga as - Jason returned from the dead and people commented on it?" "Yes, pretty much."

Erm ok. Is everybody else happy for this to happen?

Sorry fella, but I don't really think you understand what people use wikipedia for.

The career of Jason Todd ('post-crisis'), in publication terms, lasted from November '86 to Jan 89' - or (approximately) 23 issues of Batman and 23 issues of Detective Comics + the four part series 'Batman The Cult' (I've excluded Years One and Two). This character actualy appeared about 30 issues - including major story arcs such as 'Batman: the Cult', 'Death in the Family', 'Ten Nights of The Beast' and the 'Legends' + 'Millennium' cross-overs. I wrote about 1200 words summing this up. At the moment there is less than 600 (over one third of which are concerned with the 4 issues which make up 'A Death in the family').

Your favoured 600 words (for 30+ issues of character development) is comparable to the amount of attention given to the plot of All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder - which currently stands at 5 issues and the amount of character history given to Batmite.

Just 9 issues in and Countdown (DC Comics) gets nearly 2,500 words on plot alone.

Stretching to just 13 issues (less than one year of comics), I notice you have not edited down the nearly 500 words written about Winick's Red Hood story.

Ace the Bat-Hound gets more character history than is presently given to Jason Todd's history prior to 'A Death In The Family'.

I take your point about reading comics and not Wikipedia. However, in no way does my writing replace the reading of 30+ issues of comics. In fact I do not provide any more than basic plot outlines for two issues (Batman #410/411 - Jason's first case) and descriptions of one or two panels from other issues. Maybe I partially reveal the ending of some stories in order to illustrate Jason's murderous motivation. This hardly 'verges on violating copyright' - in fact after 20 years I doubt it would even require a spoiler notice???

Anyway...I recently read 'Under the Hood'. This was a return to comics for me after several years. The return of Jason Todd sparked an interest in me. After reading 'Under The hood' I wanted to quicly remind myself who Jason Todd was - where he came from and mostly why Winick chose to portray him as he did. I found your prefered article was insufficient for purpose.

However, I will not put my factually accurate recording of Jason Todd's career as Robin back on this page, as I strongly suspect that you will simply take it off again. I think that it is a shame that people with preconcieved ideas as to what is 'important' to users of this page should just come in and do this. Just because you are more interested in the now than the history of comics, please don't presume that everybody else it. This article is by far the weaker for your 'editing'.

I think you making a few assumptions here. First of all, I really hated the whole "let's bring Jason Todd back" deal Winick has done. It's fairly ridiculous. Thus I am quite emphaticlaly not "more interested in the now than the history of comics". My edits to Batman also demonstrate that. Furthermore my edits on this page are not personal; I have nothing against you. What I am trying to convey is that there's a general way to write fiction and particularly comics that should be utilized on Wikipedia. Look at Superman or Emperor Palpatine for excellent articles on featured characters. My point all along has been "we don't need excessive detail" about the stories. Certainly any issue citations you could provide would be appreciated, bit we don't need a point-by-point in-story development of the character, which is fancruft. The amount of words devoted to a topic does not indicate importance; notability and verifiability do. WesleyDodds 21:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The difference between Superman and Jason Todd though is the sheer number of pages devoted to information about the character. For example look at Superman storylines, History of Superman, List of Superman enemies, Superman character and cast, Powers and abilities of Superman, Superman in popular culture, Clark Kent, List of supporting characters in Superman, The Last Son Of Krypton and this is just the start (I'm sure the same is true for your star wars character). Other than Robin (comics) this is the only page for information on Jason Todd - it either needs opening up or expanding.

Those article and categories exist because Superman is insanely notable. Various aspects of the character have been discussed in academia, the media, and popular culture. Thus, there is a reason such detail exists: because people have written about it. In comparison, Jason Todd isn't as notable. There's still out-of-universe sources to work with, but their abundance pales in comparision to the likes of Superman or Batman. Most out-of-universe coverage of Jason Todd deals with the call-in vote. Regardless, we would keep the details of the stories themselves to an acceptable length for readability purposes. WesleyDodds 02:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I provided a 100% verifiable account of Jason Todds career as Robin, and if you do not think the story of his decent into 'murder' is notable, then I guess that is your opinion.

Yes, the story's notable in regards to the character, but the details are unnecessary. WesleyDodds 02:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that’s your opinion and, of course, you’re welcome to it. I personally find it amazing that you think it is in no way notable that Jason's Todd's father was killed by Two-Face - and that Jason resented Batman for keeping this information from him - and that Jason repeatedly called for Two-Face's demise. This was the foundation of his relationship with Batman from day one. Of zero note according to you. He, and both his biological parents were killed by costumed criminals - is this not remotly notable when we consider his current attitude towards Batman and Gotham's costumed criminals? No - I guess not. In fact if you read the notes I make below, I am able to construct a valid argument as to the notability of each story aspect which was referenced in the contribution which you deemed unworthy for your article.

"Those article and categories exist because Superman is insanely notable. Various aspects of the character have been discussed in academia, the media, and popular culture. Thus, there is a reason such detail exists: because people have written about it."

"Jason Todd isn't as notable. There's still out-of-universe sources to work with, but their abundance pales in comparision to the likes of Superman or Batman. Most out-of-universe coverage of Jason Todd deals with the call-in vote."

Let me just get this straight - we shouldn't write about Jason Todd, because nobody has written about him already? And if anybody does write about him we should remove it, straight away, from this article??? If you consider Jason Todd to be such an un-noteworthy character why are you even here? (High importance???)

Anyway, I digress. I think you need to take stock as to why you decided to carry out a complete wholesale edit (removal) of my contribution – whilst you let all the stuff about Red hood, etc. stand. This was, it seems to me, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing a large amount of new information on a page which you have taken ownership of.

It also seems to me that it is time for you to stand-down from your self appointed position of Wikipedia dictator. I can assure you that your ‘work’ is not universally appreciated (I see that just a couple of days ago somebody else was compelled to revert one of your changes). This page has been created for the people, and it is supposed to be maintained by the people. It has not been created for you, and it is not supposed to be maintained by you (alone). I recommend that you read the Wikipedia article on Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and take stock of the advice it gives for when one feels the way you appear to about this article.

That's pretty much all I have to say about Jason Todd. I feel that it’s a shame that I can't share the knowledge I have about this character with others - especially those who might be interested after reading ‘Red Hood’ but who find that they are unable to obtain all the back issues required to build a broader understanding of the character. I simply feel powerless to add anything to this article as I don't want to enter into an edit war with you. I find your approach to be intimidating and against Wikipedia policy:

“When making large scale removals of content, particularly content contributed by one editor, it is important to consider whether a desirable result could be obtained by working with the editor, instead of against him or her”

I do appreciate your advice about formatting, and suggestion that I use less direct quotes.

Pre / Post Crisis + Robin / Red Hood

I propose that Jason Todd's fictional history be split into two sections...

Pre and Post Crisis.

Whilst both are called Jason todd and both became Robin - these two characters have very different origins, careers, personalities etc.

See Alfred Pennyworth for precedent.

I further propose that the history of the Post Crisis Jason be divded as below:

Origin
Robin: The Boy Wonder
Death in the family
Retun from the Grave
Red Hood

Jason's first assignmant as Robin

I feel that this is a vitally important moment in the history of Jason Todd.

This is how I could describe the event:

During Todd’s first night as Robin he deduces that Two-Face is set to commit a crime. Jason plays a significant part in preventing this crime. Jason also prevents Two-Face from endangering an innocent – by voluntarily taking her place as a hostage. After his escape, Todd learns that Harvey Dent had killed his father and that Batman had been keeping this information from him. This enrages Todd[14]. The next day Batman and Robin catch up with Two Face. After knocking Dent unconscious Batman instructs Todd to keep his distance. However, Jason starts strangling the villain, exclaiming “I’ll kill you…kill you…”[15] As a consequence of this Two-Face escapes. Batman and Robin talk things out, Todd figures out Two-Face’s next crime, and (following a blunder by Batman) Todd actually saves Dent’s life. After capturing Two-Face both Batman and Robin seem content that Jason has worked his problems out[16].

What do you think? I think this shows the lad to be a 'blossoming' hero - his deductive skills were evident, his selflessness and his abilities to back Batman up (after Batman blundered). It also shows that from the begining he had 'issues'.

An Impetuous Hero

I feel that at present the artcile is overtly derogatory about Todd's careers as Robin. I feel this needs to be countered by a note of his successes.

Todd is (to a degree) a successful crime fighter. During his time as Robin, the post-crisis incarnation of Jason Todd encounters and aids Batman in defeating a collection of Gotham’s costumed villains - including Two Face, Magpie, the Joker, the Penguin, Catwoman, the Scarecrow, the Mad Hatter and the Mime. Jason also rescues Batman when Gotham city is temporally overrun by Deacon Blackfire. Although Jason’s impetuousness foils a drugs bust which Dick Grayson (as Nightwing) had been working on, Grayson is impressed enough by the lad to give him his blessings - and a ‘teen-wonder’ sized Robin costume. Jason Todd (as Robin) even meets the president of America when Batman briefs Ronald Reagon on the KGBeast threat.

I concur that Jason was impetuous. I also feel that it is important to note that Batman was aware of this in his new Robin: I also wanted to provide a specific reference for this - to show a lack of IMO - Therefore, in order to provide a general personality protrait, I wrote...

However, Jason is independent minded and overconfident – which in turn leads to impetuousness and disobedience. As Batman expresses; “No matter what I say Robin likes to go it on his own whenever he gets the chance. The trouble is that he’s nowhere near as good as he thinks he is”.

I wanted to provide a specific example of a time where Jason was impetuous - and yet still succesful as a crime fighter. I feel that this is a sign of his independence from Batman - an independence that eventually sees him assume the identity of Red hood. I also feel the paragraph below provides a key moment between Alfred and Batman - again important to the present time dynamics between Bruce and Jason. Note the similarty to the conversation (Between Bruce and Alfred) below and that in Winick's 'Under The Hood'(When Alfred says to Batman..."The son has not surpassed the father").

One example of impetuous disobedience results in Jason single-handedly capturing the villain Jonathon Crane (a.k.a. the Scarecrow). On this occasion Batman gives Robin strict instructions to locate Crane and call in when he has done so. Instead Jason renders the Scarecrow immobile and takes the unconscious Crane to the Batcave. Batman berates Todd for his actions. Following this, Alfred questions Batman as to why he doesn’t want Todd to go after villains such as Crane by himself, asking; “Afraid the lad will reach a point where he won’t need you any longer?” To which Batman answers; “Perhaps”.

An Angry Young Man

Following this account of Jason's (flawed) successes as a crime-fighter, I felt it was pertinent to address the 'issues' which came to dominate the character. These 'issues' are the key to the present Red Hood scenario. It is very important to realise that Jason wasn't inept ('failed to bloosom) - he was pretty good in fact - He was just wrong for the role of Robin (far too angry).

Despite his successes Todd does not work out all his anger/violence issues. For example, on his second meeting with Two-Face, once again Todd’s anger gets the better of him - and as a consequence the villain temporarily escapes - again[30]. According to a narrative told from the point of view of Alfred Pennyworth, Bruce Wayne first realised that Jason was not Dick Grayson when Todd shattered the collarbone of a drug-dealing pimp - Todd expressed regret that they were not able to get any information from him, but also expressed a belief that the pimp got what he deserved[31].

A Vengeful Murderer?

Absolutly VITAL to understanding the Jason Todd character, is an appriciation that even before he died and came back he showed some murderous tendancies. We therefore need to know, accuratly and with proper referenced example how Jason's decline came about.

Also it is important to realise that Jason Todd's character evolved during the 'Dark Knight' era. That is a time when Batman texts were showing him to be a bit tougher than prviously. Basically, despite what is said in 'Under the Hood' - Jason was present whilst Batman was 'killing' villains.

Basically in the text below I wanted to illustrate the progression from witnessing/being aware that Batman kills to suggesting the they leave a man to die, to almost beating a man to death, to justifying murder, to commiting murder.

''When Alfred attempts to assure Todd that the fear Batman instils in criminals is more effective than actual violence; Jason responds by stating that no matter how much the criminals fear Batman, they know he won't kill them[32]. However, during Jason's time as Robin, Batman is seemingly/partially responsible for the death of two major criminals. When he traps the KGBeast inside an underground vault Batman appears to believe that he is leaving the Russian assassin to die[33] (it is not revealed that the KGBeast actually escaped until after Jason's death). Todd is also present when Batman beats Deacon Blackfire to a bloody pulp - conscious that this would bring about the Deacon's ‘fatal mistake’. When Jason suggests that they should try to save Blackfire from his murderous minions, Batman declines[34]. The notion that it is acceptable for heroes to bring about the death of criminals grows within Jason's mind.

(Massively important - Jason was young and impressionable. His mentor allowed / caused the death of a villain/s in his presence.)

As stated above, on his first case Todd attempts to strangle Harvey Dent – whilst stating; “I’ll kill you…kill you…”. On his second meeting with Two-Face Todd argues that Batman should not free Dent from a death-trap. Todd states; "We should let him die, Batman."[35].

After becoming enraged that a knife-murderer, who Batman had captured, was able to escape justice due to missing evidence, Jason starts a fight with a pimp - a brawl which Batman was ultimately forced to stop. Of this fight Batman asks Todd; “What were you trying to do, kill him?” To which Todd responds; “Would it’ve been that big of a loss if I had?” [36]. After the knife-murderer was killed by one of his victim’s sisters, Todd expresses a belief that this killing might not have been legal, but was ‘right’[37].''

(This shows Todd's willingness to kill - and also his opinion of murderous vigilantism - the relevance of which almost goes without saying.)

Some time later Jason independently pursues a rapist who evades criminal charges due to his father's status as a diplomat. When Batman eventually catches up to his young ward it was to find that the rapist was dead – having ‘fallen’ from the balcony of his high-rise apartment. Batman had by this point become so concerned about Todd’s apparent tendencies that he was compelled to ask Jason whether the dead man had fallen or was pushed – Jason responds; “I guess I spooked him. He slipped” [38].

(I think the image originally provided here of Robin looking over the falling Philippe is highly significant. this was a landmark moment in comics history. Batman's partner seemingly killed out of pure vengance. Surely we can't just ignore this?)

You may be interested to note that (other than the two-face references) every cited source in the paragraphs above came from comics written by Jim Starlin.

During Jason Todd's formative years Batman 'kills' in (Starlin written)
Batman The Cult
Ten Nights of The Beast
Jason nearly kills pimp and justifies murder in the (Starlin written)'Dumpster Murders' story arch.
Jason 'Kills' in the (Starlin written) 'Diplomats Son' arch.

I believe that Jim Starlin conciously plotted the decent of Jason Todd into murderousness - including his presence at the Blackfire beating. I also consider that each of the citations I give are key moments in that plot.

A Death in the Family

I think this connects the previous sections with the Death in the Familty scetion - and also provides a greater detail as to what was going on in Jason's life at the time....

Shortly after the death of the diplomat's son Jason is taken off active Robin duty by Bruce Wayne - who is concerned that the boy is 'losing it' having become 'resentful' and 'reckless'. Alrfed Pennyworth and Wayne together surmise that the boy is not coping with his role as Robin and the deaths of his parents.

Around this time Jason discovers that Catherine Todd was not his biological mother, and runs away to find the woman who gave birth to him.

The bit above just provides a bit more information and is worded a bit better than - 'his mother was not his mother'.

TMI?

Fictional Character history:

Current Jason Todd Word count post-death: 1250 (and rising)
Current Jason Todd Word count pre-death: 659 (static)

I'm afraid I genuinly feel that people are overly obsessed with that which is going on at the moment - to the expense of historical accounts. I personally am much more interested in the history of comics (hey guys - just because it happened a few years ago, it's still equally important, weighting anyone?). I feel that this is where the present article is lacking. Furthermore, I feel to do a clean sweep and remove my relatively comprehensive account of the history of Jason Todd (as Robin)- before seeing whether such an account proves popular with other users is wrong.

I notice that my editing never removed any information - merely provided a greater understanding of the context. Other editors has since come in and removed a great deal of accurate/encyclopedic data. I suspect a case of Ownership here.

Jason Todd's complete career as Robin as I would express it....

I have re-edited Jason's career as Robin as such:

During Todd’s first night as Robin he deduces that Two-Face is set to commit a crime, and plays a significant part in preventing it. Jason also prevents Two-Face from endangering an innocent – by voluntarily taking her place as a hostage. After his escape, Todd learns that Harvey Dent had killed his father and that Batman had been keeping this information from him. This enrages Todd. The next day Batman and Robin catch up with Two Face. After knocking Dent unconscious Batman instructs Todd to keep his distance. However, Jason starts strangling the villain, exclaiming “I’ll kill you…kill you…”. As a consequence of this Two-Face escapes. Batman and Robin talk things out, Todd figures out Two-Face’s next crime, and (following a blunder by Batman) Todd actually saves Dent’s life. After capturing Two-Face both Batman and Robin seem content that Jason has worked his problems out.

Following this Todd becomes a relatively successful crime fighter. He encounters and aids Batman in defeating a collection of Gotham’s costumed villains - including Magpie, the Joker, the Penguin, Catwoman, the Scarecrow, the Mad Hatter and the Mime. Jason also rescues Batman when Gotham city is temporally overrun by Deacon Blackfire. Although Jason’s impetuousness foils a drugs bust which Dick Grayson (as Nightwing) had been working on, Grayson is impressed enough by the lad to gift him a ‘teen-wonder’ sized Robin costume. Jason Todd (as Robin) even meets the president of America. However, Jason is independent minded and overconfident – which in turn leads to impetuousness and disobedience. Batman recognises this himself expressing; “No matter what I say Robin likes to go it on his own whenever he gets the chance. The trouble is that he’s nowhere near as good as he thinks he is.” One example of impetuous disobedience results in Jason single-handedly capturing the villain Jonathon Crane (a.k.a. the Scarecrow). On this occasion Batman gives Robin strict instructions to locate Crane and call in when he has done so. Instead Jason renders the Scarecrow immobile and takes him to the Batcave. Batman berates Todd for his actions. Following this Batman indicates that he does not wish Robin to tackle major criminals alone, as he is afraid the lad will reach a point where he won’t need mentoring any longer.

Despite his successes Todd does not work out all his anger/violence issues. Alfred Pennyworth considers that Bruce Wayne first realised that Jason was not Dick Grayson when Todd shattered the collarbone of a drug-dealing pimp - Todd expressed regret that they were not able to get any information from him, but also expressed a belief that the pimp got what he deserved. Alfred attempts to assure Todd that the fear Batman instils is more effective than violence. Jason counters this by stating that although criminals fear Batman, they know he won't kill them. However, during Jason's time as Robin, his mentor is seemingly/partially responsible for the death of two major criminals - The KGBeast and Deacon Blackfire (it is not revealed that the KGBeast actually escaped death until after Jason's own demise). The notion that it is acceptable for heroes to bring about the death of criminals grows within Jason's mind.

On his second meeting with Two-Face Todd argues that Batman should not free Dent from a death-trap, stating; "We should let him die, Batman.". On an other occasion Jason violently attacks a pimp; Batman asks Todd if he had been trying to kill the pimp – to which Todd responds; “Would it’ve been that big of a loss if I had?”. After a knife-murderer, who escaped justice due to a lack of evidence, was killed by vengeful vigilante, Todd expresses a belief that this killing might not have been legal but was ‘right’. Some time later, Jason independently pursues a rapist who evades criminal charges due to his father's status as a diplomat. When Batman eventually catches up to his young ward he finds the rapist dead – having ‘fallen’ from the balcony of his high-rise apartment. Batman had by this point become so concerned about Todd’s apparent tendencies that he was compelled to ask Jason whether he had killed the man – Jason denied the charge.

That's down to less than 700 words. Which I think is reasonable for the entire career of one of the Robins. I would appriciate any feedback.

THIS NEEDS TO GO ON THE Main page. - Nick

Hope you include how Batman allowed a mob to murder Blackfire when Jason wanted to save him. Or how he had to stop Batman from trying to kill the Joker in Tec 570, post crisis. It reads more like an indictment than a biography. Do we paint Batman as a psycho for causing Alberto Falcone's arm to wither from a beating? Also love how even bringing in Scarecrow alone is now a bad thing. Read it again, Bruce was impressed. Again, reads like someone wants him to have been a killer as Robin wrote it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.76.117 (talk) 06:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Concerning Behind the scenes

While messageboard info is considered invalid, the information concerning Jason Todd's conceived Earth-Two counterpart is mentioned as being planned in an interview from the hardcover printing of Infinite Crisis. How does one go about linking to a source that isn't online, but printed in a book? 71.120.233.114 09:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Source it, just don't provide a link. Ichormosquito 06:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing I think should be mentioned with why Jason was killed: Some fans just didn't like the idea of a Robin sidekick at all. They saw the vote in as their best opportunity toward returning Batman to loner status. Having a Robin die on Batman would discourage him from picking up another Robin sidekick. 76.170.109.79 07:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no way to verify that. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible to get some context for the O'Neil quote? As it stands now, the "regrets his decision" line implies that he's changed his mind and no longer thinks "It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back." However the citation gives a quote where he simply says he would have kept his mouth shut. Kept his mouth shut regarding what, precisely? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.79.10.209 (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Was just looking at that line in confusion myself. What is it that the quote is meant to indicate? What "regret" is it talking about? Does he regret killing Todd? Does he regret saying it would be sleazy to bring him back? Does he regret saying anything on the subject at all, for people to quote later? Out of context it could mean any or none of the above.D1Puck1T (talk) 20:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Woefully inadequate

Must say I agree that this articles summation of Jason Todd's post-crisis career is woefully inadequate.

However, I also consider that the pre-crisis Jason is somewhat ignored within this article. Jason first appeared in Feb 1983, and the reboot origin did not occur until June '87. That's over four years - longer than the post-crisis incarnation lasted.

First of all the article is inaccurate and contradictory. In one instance we are informed that Jason first appears in Batman #357 (March 1983)- and then in the body text we are told he first appears in Detective comics 524.

It is notable that the death of Todd's parents occurred in Tec 526 - which was an over sized anniversary issue celebrating batman's 500th appearance in the comic. However the information here in just wrong. Jason did not appear as Robin in that issue - but appeared in a costume of his own design.

It seems that the whole article needs to be looked at by somebody who is interested enough in the character to get the basic facts straight.

Furthermore, this article refers to Killer Croc (who killed Jason's parents) only in passing - in brackets even. This story actually took many issues to come to ahead and warrants some mention. It should also be mentioned that Dick Grayson assumed responsibility for the Todd's death - given that he had asked them to follow Croc. In fact Commissioner Gordon also came out and blamed Grayson (Robin); "You brought them into this, Robin. It's on your head". Significant!

This article makes no reference to the interesting storyline whereby the 'Child Welfare Bureau' suspect that Bruce Wayne is abusing Jason (due to his bruising and tiredness, ect.) and take the boy into custody.

The Nocturna saga - a story which took, I would guess, about 15 issues to resolve - in which Jason is adopted by a mysterious female villain. At first he agrees to the adoption only to help 'crack the case', however Jason does come to consider Nocturna to be his mother. Not mentioned at all.

The Catwoman years. After her rehabilitation Jason felt that Selina Kyle was replacing him as Batman's partner (essentially he was right). During this time Jason teamed up with Harvey Bullock - with whom he developed a close bond.

Bullock worked out that this Robin was not the original - and even suspected he might be the natural son of Nocturna. Gordon reveals that he also knows that Jason is not the original Robin - but considers that Batman must have his reasons for not saying anything. None of this is even hinted at.

This article would be woefully inadequate for a second string character. However, the character of Jason Todd has been around (in one form or another) for 25 years (next month?). The character of Jason Todd has shaped the Batman mythos for all that time. The character of Jason Todd is presently at the very centre of the DCU. Come on - at least get it right! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.185.90 (talk) 10:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:RedRobin.jpg

Image:RedRobin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 10:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Robin shrine.jpg

Image:Robin shrine.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What the...?

"This version wasn't far removed from the original Dick Grayson character. He was an orphan, a former circus acrobat and pretty much the all american "Leave it to Beaver" kid."

This whole article needs a serious looking at. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.68.244 (talk) 09:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Created By?

I'm not sure that there should be a second entry for the 'red hood' persona.

Should there also be a 'created by' for the post-crisis Jason; the 'Nightwing' Jason; the 'Red Robin' Jason; the Jason that wore blue jeans; the Jason that wore green trousers, etc?

Check Roy Harper - Speedy, Arsnal, Red Arrow - one character one point of creation. (I would make the same argument for Dick Grayson also.)

The second 'creators' might have created a new secret identity (note 'Robin' and 'Nightwing' have artcles as seperate identities) but they did not create Jason Todd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.240.253 (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The article is actually pretty solid and is coming along nicely but feels... muddled? unfocused? The Publication History is largely written in an in-universe style and is missing important out-of-universe material: Most obvious it mentions in the lead that the characters fate was decided in a phone poll but no further mention of this is made on the page (it is on the Death in the family article but without a specific source). It might be that the PH aspects need to be split off and the current PH turned into a FCB but I'd rather see it rewritten to be more out-of-universe as this will have to happen at some point so it might as well be now. Make the referencing thicker throughout the PH and try and find something to support the statements made in the Powers and Abilities. (Emperor (talk) 19:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC))

Batman forever

This movie HAS nothing to do with Jaosn Todd...abosolutely NOTHING. He is never mentioned and the origin story is just an altered version of Dick grayson's circus origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.67.178.213 (talk) 22:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Superpowers

Didnt Jason Todd at some point have the ability to turn into a some wierd creature that eat people in Nightwing? i see no mention of it here but im sure it happened. --- 88.108.148.10 (talk) 17:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Hahaha. WHAT?! That's awesome. 68.196.93.32 (talk) 02:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Battle for the Cowl

It's probably Jason (and some DC behind-the-scenes stuff confirms it), but "Gatman" pointedly doesn't confirm that he's Jason when Nightwing and Robin call him out. The narration is ambiguous enough that it could be Jean Paul Valley/Azrael. Just saying it's not definitely known for sure that it's him. 96.231.16.93 (talk) 03:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I thing there is a combination of factors. Character exposition alone does not, but Tony Daniels, the artist and author or the series, has also identified Todd and spoken of the implications of his actions. <comics.ign.com/articles/972/972153p1.html> These two should be enough to identify Todd as the infamous Gatman. -66.109.248.114 (talk) 00:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC).

Dead?

Is Todd dead after BOTC? (JoeLoeb (talk) 00:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC))

First appearance as...

Should we list EVERY superhero title Todd has had in the infobox, including Nightwing, Red Robin and Batman, all of which he only held temporarily? This infobox lists not so much his first appearances of these personae but his ONLY appearances as them. Wouldn't it be more useful to list only Jason Todd, Robin, and Red Hood? The rest of the titles he had were very short-lived fill-ins for other characters. ArtistScientist (talk) 01:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I think there's 3 general ways to handle it:

1. Limit it to just the character's 1st appearance. Which isn't really helpful.
2. Limit it to the "notable" and "it looked like this was supposed to be long term". Which involves a "value judgement". And
3. Every thing. Which can lead to a royal mess. (Yes, I'm looking at this in more general terms...)

Personally, I don't agree with #1, most of the more recent characters wind up getting a short end. Nor do I like #3, at least for Wikipedia. It can also get bogged down in minutia like "He disguised himself as ... in ... . So that counts."

1. 2 could work, with the "one arc wonders" (Nightwing and Batman) getting an immediate toss. Red Robin is a bit more dicey... IIRC it was played/presented as RR replacing RH as his nom de tights. Or am I wrong on that?

- J Greb (talk) 02:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really familiar with that storyline either, but I know he was only RR for a second in between Earth-51 Dick Grayson and Tim Drake. I'd exclude Red Robin. Your #2 suggestion seems feasible.ArtistScientist (talk) 12:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Needs more references

I don't want to start pulling bits here and there because they remain uncited. That said, this is an encyclopedia, and there is precisely zero room for any original research or fanboy musing. I've logged two sections in particular as being in dire need of reference work. If citations don't start shown up in about a week or so, I will start pruning the article to reflect the lack of citation. Just offering advance warning. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Tell me where you think citation is needed, which two specific sections is your issue with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeDee29 (talk • contribs) 19:26, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Er, the sections I tagged as needing citation, namely "Skills and abilities" and "In other media". the entire article has fr too much speculation and synthesis, though, and could stand a lot of citation. The key is to be able to note - briefly - what happened, without a minute retelling of the history of the character. And without any suggestion as to what the events mean. We leave that to cited, reliable sources.

The clock is ticking. Without significant referencing for a lot of the text, it will be removed to article discussion page. There it will stay until cited.I don't want to do this, but we are writing for an encyclopedia, not a Batman wiki. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, a user thought my pointing out the need for references prior to removal was to be either ignored or misinterpreted. I've twice removed material that is sourced only to the primary material which includes motivations and intuitive leaps that are uncited and unsupported.

I guess its time to back up what I said. I will start removing text to here that isn't cited. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm really only concerned with stuff I actually write here. If someone makes some leaps in the "abiliies" section. It's not my concern. But apparently, I now have to explain the "homage" to the Killing Joke someone here can't see it in Batman and Robin #6.

• The Killing Joke
• Batman and Robin 6

Both Jason and Joker have moments of clarity where they explain it's too late for them [right down to the nose grabs on panel] before disappearing back into their manic personas when Batman offers to rehabilitate them.

So it's there and it's cited and someone's clearly just looking for things to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeDee29 (talk • contribs) 07:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Respectfully, that's a fairly uncharitable assessment of someone else's evaluation of the material. The information was removed because it required an amount of Sherlocking that Wikipedia doesn't allow its editors to engage in while working articles. If you feel you have to explain some nuance of JT, you are missing the issue. You need to cite someone reliable that is speaking about it.

To be an editor here, you might want to consider our policies and guidelines. If you are unsure why one or another guideline is in place, ask; there are literally hundreds of editors who might very well help you out. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

removed section

I've removed the following section, for reasons I'll explain below:

Television

Tim Drake from The New Batman Adventures is depicted as a hybrid of these two characters' comic versions, with a background almost identical to the Post-Crisis Jason's. Tim Drake's father was killed by Two-Face and he turned to theft to keep from starvation. Tim is often far more responsive to Bruce's orders and demonstrates that he adheres to the code Batman established; in the episode "Never Fear", he stopped Batman from killing a thug after a shock interrogation, a move that mirrors the comic story where Jason let a thug fall to his death. In one case, Tim's personality was similar to Jason's impulsiveness; in the episode "Growing Pains", he didn't take Batman's orders and came close to crossing Batman's "no killing" rule after he found out that Clayface had "killed" his friend Annie (who turned out to be a part of Clayface with her own identity and emotions). However, in that case Tim acted out of despair while Jason acted in his belief in the criminal mind.

The Teen Titans animated series actually depicts the character onscreen. Beast Boy, in the episode "X", asserts that the person behind the mask of Robin's one-time persona Red X is a robotic monkey, but does so with the aid of a diagram illustrating numerous different possible identities, including Jason Todd. Red X's identity however is never revealed. However, some fans assumed that Red X is in fact Jason Todd and the alias Red X is a nod to Todd's other secret identity Red Hood.

The second episode of the short-lived Birds of Prey television series, "Slick", mentions Todd in passing. While explaining the idea of their responsibilities to Helena Kyle, Barbara Gordon is asked to remember how she learned to be a crime fighter: "Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Jason Todd, even you. It's more than a tradition, it's a legacy." Whether or not Jason is still alive, or was killed by the Joker like in the comics was never revealed.

There is an unbelievable amount of speculative writing going on there. It is requiring the reader to trust that the connections being made by a Wikipedia editor - and not verifiable, reliable sources. In the first paragraph, we are told that the Robin of the New Batman Adventures is a hybrid of Drake and Todd, and later a comparison/evaluation of their personalities is offered - all without benefit of a notable reference. Unacceptable.
In the second paragraph, it is an editor evaluating a brief, unspoken, chibi-style animation of a character as Jason Todd. Further speculation offers info about what "some fans" assumed. Unacceptable.
Lastly, regarding the execrable Birds of Prey tv series, someone offers a name in passing as being that of Jason Todd. Why not Todd Rundgren. John Todd or Todd Rice (Obsidian). Even if that name was mentioned as was supplied above, a mention in passing isn't notable enough for inclusion. Unacceptable,
Therefore, I think this section should stay out until some solid references start appearing We still have the film section, so we are covered as far as animation goes. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:51, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The section on the Lost Days is having reader inference and outright fabrication added to it. Nowhere in the Lost Days does Talia say Tim has surpassed Jason as Robin and the implication he's obsessed with Tim is speculative. I'd correct it but the thought police seem to take issue with every revision being vandalism...so...may I correct it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeDee29 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Please do. Anytime you spot inaccurate, uncited information, remove it immediately. If you aren't positive its speculative or incorrect, do like you did here and ask. Excellent handling, Mike. :) - Jack Sebastian (talk) 09:01, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The Teen Titans cartoon and the Birds of Prey thing shouldn't have been removed. Jason Todd is actually shown in a picture in the Teen Titans episode, his name is even written on the picture, and his name is mentioned in Birds of Prey. Seriously, how is this speculation? --Noah Tall (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Because they were mentioned only in passing, and have little or no consequence/impact in the venue where you scanned their briefest of mentions. In the TT noting, Beast Boy is playing through a number of choices, and one of them is one that you think is Todd. Your observations and deduction is not sufficient for inclusion. Fins a reliable secondary source that makes that connection, and we can proceed Without it, its a moot subject.

Likewise, the BoP reference was so very much in passing and so vague that they might very well have been talking about Mary Todd Lincoln. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the tv version of BoP was so far out in left field that there are actually some fans who think Slick was Dick Grayson. Thank God we will never have to find out. Just admitting that I watched that show makes me ashamed. It was dreadful and about as useful to this article as the paddlewheel would be on a racecar. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 06:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Outlaws

The Outlaws section should just be about Jason's involvement in the team, not Starfire's. --DrBat (talk) 00:49, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Quite right; I saw some area with cn tags and went hog wild. I've ported the removed text to the appropriate article. Thanks for catching it, DrBat. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Middle name

Where was it revealed that Jason Todd's middle name is Peter? 120.29.80.103 (talk) 11:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If it isn't cited, it will be removed. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Jason's middle name was revealed during The Death of the Family storyline, on his birth certificate.--NeoBatfreak (talk) 17:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Again, it needs to be cited to something better than one of us noticing it in a storyline. What would be best is a reliable source taking note of the middle name, and perhaps why its important. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I'd go a step or three beyond that. It should also be sourced that 1) it's really, really important and 2) that the three word name is what the character is commonly know by in real world contexts. At that point, sure, add it to the infobox and the lead. If it isn't the common name for the character, is sourcable, and non-trivial, it should be worked into the relevant section lower down the article. And even if it is sourcable, if it is trivial - and a one time mention on an image of a documents in a single story is very trivial - it isn't needed in the article here. - J Greb (talk) 22:20, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Tell that to the Richard John "Dick" Grayson or Timothy Jackson Drake pages on here. Peter was on his birth certificate in A Death In The Family specifically Batman #426. His Death certificate was featured in Batman Annual #25 as well as the DC release of the Batman Files hardcover encyclopedia. His tombstone has appeared countless times as Jason Peter Todd. It's no more trivial than his parents names. Since such a large percentage of his page reads almost biographical, why not have it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikedee429 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Their middle names shouldn't be mentioned either. Middle names are rarely treated consistently in comics anyway.Zythe (talk) 21:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

There is not a real relevance to the middle name with this particular character that I know of. It could be included as it is indeed Peter but it is not a primary focus plus it could be put in his bio before diving into his history--ShaneDenial17 (talk) 16:40, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Jason Todd mentions in Young Justice (2011)

Hi, I'm the one who made those Jason Todd edits under Young Justice. I'll reword it if you think that's best but I think that, considering Nightwing's comments in episode 1 and then the sight of a person who was clearly Tim looking at another Robin, it's clear that Jason exists in the YJ earth-16 continuity and should be mentioned. Bellerophone29 (talk) 23:29, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

The main issue is that it is not explicitly said that the hologram memorial is of Todd. We are not allowed to use our prior knowledge or deduction (I call it Sherlocking) in the article. Wikipedia works on reliable, explicit sources. Without a reviewer from a reliable saying it explicitly, we have no avenue by which to include him. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

what would you consider a reliable source then? Because I think the sight of Tim, Dick and a hologram in the same episode proves that it's Jason. The Young Justice Wikia already refers to the hologram as of Todd. And I think it's important to mention all of Jason's "other media" appearances since there are so few. Bellerophone29 (talk) 00:27, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Not sure, but if you look through the sources that are in the article, you'd see that there is an appreciable number of reviewers writing about YJ, and websites that have editorial oversight (one of the key requirements for inclusion as an reliable source). If the YJ wiki mentions it, its only a matter of time before a reliable source does so as well, and that is when we can use the mention, along with a good source. If it never comes up, then it isn't important. That's going to be a hard part of editing at Wikipedia - sometimes the things you think are vital to include is seen as a distraction at best or as fancruft at worst. Buck up - something may very well come along. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 00:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I understand I haven't been editing wikipedia as long as you have, so I've moved our conversation to the talk page so other people can weigh in. Bellerophone29 (talk) 02:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Excellent - I'll see you there. :) - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I've had to revert it yet again, and its growing tedious. Point to a reliable source or two that explicitly note Jason Todd, and you've got traction for inclusion. Otherwise, anyone seeking to add information about Todd is adding Original Research; you cannot presume - using whatever foreknowledge you may possess - to read intimations as to prior Robins. You go with what is explicitly given in the episode or stated explicitly by a reliable, notable reviewer. If you have a differing view, expressing it here is the place to do so, and not via a slo-mo edit war. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• • I think i'm the one who caused it here, Jack. For that i'm sorry but as soon as i saw the image (me being a comic reader and follower of the show and all), it popped in my mind that: "THAT's JASON TODD!!!! YES, FINALLY he's in the cartoon, thank you DC!!!" and all that stuff, i keep forgeting this site where anyone can edit anything here even with a link or ref. to still needs guidlines and rules. I applaud your tenacity for ollowing the rules, Jack. Hope we can talk again, man. (JoeLoeb (talk) 23:59, 1 October 2012 (UTC))

It appears a source from Scott Collura at IGN dropped the dime suggested that it "must be" Jason Todd. Not solid, but citable. I've adjusted the text to reflect that. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 23:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Pre Crisis vs. Post-Crisis

There's a rather annoying line by someone that's been added to a notation I did in the Pre-Crisis origin section citing Detective 569 as being a Post Crisis story. As has already been expressed in the article, the Post Crisis Jason Todd did not really appear until Batman 408 in 1987, when the retcon occurred. The wiki article here already goes in depth to discuss the editorial disconnect between Batman and Detective with regards to circus acrobat and street kid versions appearing simultaneously. Let's be clear, just because a book came out in 1986 does not make it Post Crisis, nor should we let continuity be dictated by cover date. I'm removing the line calling it a post crisis story. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikedee429 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The plot of Batman: Arkham Knight reveals that Jason Todd is the Arkham Knight. Given this, we really should just merge the AK content into the JT article. I'm not sure he's really notable enough to get his own page compared to any other JT incarnations; putting aside the fact he's a one-shot incarnation of a pre-existing character that likely won't show up again outside of content set in this specific continuity such as tie-in comics, there's no character reception to establish independent notability and, aside from some stuff regarding his design and specific in-game history, there's not much in the character's profile that doesn't also apply to several other incarnations of Jason as well. -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 20:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree. He's just the Arkham incarnation of Jason Todd, there's nothing here that couldn't be on Jason's article. - Fighting Fefnir (talk) 20:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I strongly agree that Jason Todd should be merged with Arkham Knight for the reasons above. Please make this happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.60.250 (talk) 14:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I also agree, since Wikipedia editors treat Arkham Knight as a new character, it makes sense to merge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thearkhamknight123 (talk • contribs) 19:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I disagree "for now", as it is heavy spoilers for the game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.251.176.71 (talk) 11:19, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Spoilers have never been a reason not to merge a page; see WP:SPOILER. Besides, there are already three different pages on the site revealing Todd is the Knight, so it's a little late for that. -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 13:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a fan website. There are no such things are "spoilers" here — once the product is released, it's information. - Fighting Fefnir (talk) 14:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I see no reason not to merge the two articles now. Spoilers are quite irrelevant (as they usually are on an encyclopedic wiki), especially seeing as how the game has been released. I say go for it. Consolas (talk) 21:42, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Merge: As an iterative version of Jason Todd, Arkham Knight belongs on this page. I believe the brunt of the information could be included here and not necessitate its own page. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 21:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree as well — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.28.189.227 (talk) 03:00, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

• Also in support of merging. This character is not separate from Todd, merely an interpretation of him. Sock (tock talk) 19:59, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. It was likely made since the developers said that he was a new character when really he was just Red Hood 1.0. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meleemaster428 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

The problem with the merging is the disproportional description of the plot. We're talking about 100 lines of text to describe what happens in 5 minutes of a game. That is not encyclopedic information. It's CNN type over-exposed news that exists only because the game came out recently. I don't see the plot of every comic book featuring the character. That will just look out of place in a year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.254.201 (talk) 00:59, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

So since the decision seems to be unanimous, can someone go through the process of moving all the relevant content from Arkham Knight here and get the page deleted/redirected? -- 136.181.195.25 (talk) 19:04, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Please someone merge the articles, so that the stupid banner is taken off the top of the page that says "Merge with Jason Todd article." I just came across the page while looking for something else, and that one banner ruined that part of the game for me. I understand that Wikipedia is a fact-based thing, but it just feels kind of jerktacular.216.252.198.54 (talk) 02:12, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge or no merge

Okay, it's been months now. What's the final verdict? If it's "no consensus", then we need to close this discussion and remove the banner because this discussion has been seemingly inactive for quite some time now. DarkKnight2149 05:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

See what I stated here, a decision should be made. I'm on the fence. —DangerousJXD (talk) 07:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Merge the Arkham Knight with Jason Todd already!!!

Since no one has anything to add, I went ahead and removed the templates. We have one user who wants to merge but, other than that, dead silence. There is no use in keeping a discussion no one wants to participate in. DarkKnight2149 14:32, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

What a joke. Maybe start an RfC in the future or at least alert the WikiProject talk page and see if discussion takes off then. There's no point in starting any other discussions anytime soon. —DangerousJXD (talk) 23:25, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Considering how little interest people showed over the coarse of two discussions on two different articles relating to this character, I wouldn't bet on many people being interested on the Wikiproject Comics page. I still have a discussion on the Wikiproject Star Wars page that's been sitting there for months. The only time I've ever gotten any responses is when two people left a suggestion after I threatened to take action without consensus (which I'm probably going to do anyway).

You are perfectly free to resurrect this discussion at Wikiproject if you wish. Hell, I would even respond to it and notify the one anon that cared to respond to this discussion. Otherwise, I guess we can consider this closed (at least for the moment). DarkKnight2149 00:11, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying the WikiProject talk page should be alerted and a discussion started right now, but rather in the future if someone does start this again, they should alert the WikiProject when they do so because I'm not entirely sure it was ever alerted to this and that can help spark conversation. I'm certainly not going to bother starting anything. I know what you mean about nobody chiming in on a discussion you started yourself. I have talk page sections all over Wikipedia with nobody else's prints on them. —DangerousJXD (talk) 08:33, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, that makes sense. DarkKnight2149 14:03, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Jason Todd & The Ironic Alias

I haven't seen it mentioned in the main article , so , I'll mention it here , just in case I missed it , or it needs to be discreetly added. Has no one noted the irony of Jason becoming "The Red Hood" ? In the original Bat-canon , it was revealed that The Joker was originally a villain called "The Red Hood". ( Black suit , red cape , red dome "hood". ). In this guise , he is knocked into the vat of chemicals , by Batman , and becomes the man we now know as The Joker. Granted , this was in the 40s/50s , and may be considered "ancient history" , but , I'm pretty sure the modern day writers meant it as a homage. 75.104.174.40 (talk) 19:03, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

12 non-free images

Per WP:NFCC, this is clearly too many (it actually puts it in the top 50 articles by number of non-free images). Which ones could be usefully removed per that policy? Clearly one or two may pass that policy and I'd rather someone who knows the subject have a look at it. Black Kite (talk) 00:16, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

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