Talk:Jean-Paul Goude

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Needs attribution[edit]

I removed the following sentence from the article as it appears to have been taken from another source. It references "Figures" not in evidence in the article. 

Works by Goude which perpetuate these racist stereotypes include the “Carolina Beaumont” (see Figure 4), the image of Grace Jones masquerading as an animal in a cage from Roseland 1978 (see Figure 9), “Trained Pussy” (see Figure 5), and the Island Life artwork lovingly referred to by Goude as “Nigger Arabesque” (see Figure 3).

The reference it gives for this is Goude's original photography book. I'm certain that he didn't refer to his own work as racist. So, I presume that this criticism comes from a different source. As such, it needs to be acknowledged by a correct citation. (On the other hand, if it is original research, it should be replaced by a reference to a reliable source.)

--GentlemanGhost (converse) 22:43, 11 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

There seem to be several personal opinions in the major revamp of this article from late 2016. I'm not saying that it's not warranted to have an opinion about Goude's fascination with and depiction of race. But it's important to remember that this is an encyclopedia article, not an opinion piece or even a critical assessment. It needs to adhere to a neutral point of view. That said, critcial evaluations can and should be cited. However, Wikipedia's article should not be making those assessments in and of itself. Phrases such as "outed as Negrophiliac," "makes a habit of," "feverish attraction," etc. are not neutral language, free of connotation. If these are direct quotes from other sources, they need to be marked as such. --GentlemanGhost (converse) 01:16, 12 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The entire section called 'The Hottentot Venus and Kim Kardashian' is opinion masquerading as an encyclopedia entry. It is full of non-attributed and somewhat arbitrary lines like "Goude’s beliefs about Black women’s bodies are similar to those of White men living in Baartman's time." When citations are made they are to opinion pieces from blogs. The first two paragraphs of this are simply the author's opinion, bringing up "Saartjie Baartman" for no reason (the reference to this person is not cited) and going on for an entire paragraph about this person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.109.124.83 (talk) 22:20, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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External links modified[edit]

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Carolina Beaumont / Toukie Smith[edit]

The article states that his famous 1976 photograph "Carolina Beaumont" is a portrait of Toukie Smith. To me it doesn't look much look other pictures of her. Other sources say that this photograph is of a model named Carolina Beaumont, which would make sense obviously. Can anyone clarify? 128.148.231.34 (talk) 18:16, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Following up on this, I'm pretty sure that the model in "Carolina Beaumont"[1] is in fact the Dominican professional model named Carolina Beaumont. She modeled for Oscar de la Renta and others in the early 1980s, and ran the Carolina Modeling Workshop, a school for models.[2] She also appeared in the film "The Game" (1990). The only pictures I've found of her are much more recent [3], [4] but her face looks very much like the same person - and very different from Toukie Smith's.

I believe that an earlier editor misinterpreted Goude's text in Jungle Fever to misidentify the model in this photograph, which became famous after Goude re-created it for Kim Kardashian. It's problematic to misidentify a woman of color in a nude photograph. Troublingly, the misidentification has propagated across the internet. Please, don't revert this edit. 128.148.231.34 (talk) 15:48, 21 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/gallery/21874/3/jean-paul-goude
  2. ^ http://iturbides.blogspot.com/2005/12/sociales-carolina-beaumont-modelo.html
  3. ^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvqslLJIqew
  4. ^ http://www.soylatino.net/v2/2012/11/27/como-se-llama-la-obra-del-pacha/

Date of birth - source is a mess[edit]

The DoB is sourced to a radio interview with the subject, dated October 11, 2021. Here’s a transcript of the relevant part (from 3:28 to 4:05), keeping close to the spoken version for JPG (but excluding journalist interventions that did not really break the flow):

(Journaliste) vous êtes né à Saint-Mandé en 1940... (JPG) : même avant. Je ne devais pas vous le dire, ça... oui je suis né en 40, ouais. De toute façon c’est la guerre comme on... de toute façon je suis né pendant la guerre. Janvier 39 en fait. Hein. Et je me suis toujours... c’est 1939 qui me gênait, "trente", il y a le mot "trente" dedans. Les années 40 ça va, pourtant c’est à un an près, j’ai menti pendant des années, voilà, j’avoue, je l’avoue, j’ai beaucoup plus qu’on ne le croit, j’ai en fait, j’aurai 82 ans à la fin de l’année.

My translation:

(interviewer) you were born in Saint-Mandé in 1940... (JPG) : even before. I ought not to tell you this... yes, I am born in 1940, yeah. Anyway it’s the war, like they [say]... Anyway I was born during the war. January 1939 actually. Well. And I always... It’s 1939 that bothered me, "thirty", there is the word "thirty" in it [the year]. The 1940s it’s okay, even if it just by one year. I lied for years, I confess. I confess I am much older than is believed, actually I will be 82 at the end of the year.

OK, so let us disregard the "born in 1940, yeah" and the "born during the war" (WW2 starts in September 1939, or possibly March 1939 if you count Czechoslovakia) parts as (weak) attempts to reiterate the lie before they decide to come clean.

The rest of the testimony is still inconsistent! If they were born in January 1939, then in October 2021 they are already 82 (and closer to 83). "I will be 82 at the end of the year" is technically true if you are already 82 and your birthday has already passed, but it would definitely be unnatural phrasing; in French at least there is a clear implication that the 82th birthday is yet to come. A mistake for "83" would also be weird, because you would not think of the next January as "the end of the year".

That is not surprising; if I had lied about my date of birth for sixty years or so, I would probably have trouble doing mental calculations on live radio too. The question is what do we do with that source? Deciding that January 1939 is the date would be IMO quite some WP:OR. On the other hand, it is probable that the subject lied about their DoB before, and that all the previous sources that say 1940 were tainted by that lie. And on the third hand, we probably do not want to devote a paragraph to explaining why the date of birth is uncertain. Any ideas? TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 13:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I received from Renéclaudel94 a copy of Jean-Paul Goude's birth certificate that I uploaded here on Commons. He's finally born 8 December 1938 in Montreuil, France. This settles everything, Goude being quite confused during his radio interview and seemingly having memory problems. All the best: Tatvam (talk) 10:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A birth certificate is a primary source, and generally not acceptable as a reference. Pinging Tatvam. 73.127.147.187 (talk) 01:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that a birth certificate can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge, and that the date of birth is not an "interpretation" of what is written on it. Therefore the restrictions listed at WP:PRIMARY are met and it is an allowable source. TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 15:43, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to bring the article more in line with WP:BLP[edit]

  • Removed material for which I did not find sources.
  • Added sources when I could find them.
  • Tried to use fewer primary sources.
  • Changed some links, e.g. Lee Cooper is a different brand than Lee Jeans.
  • Removed a reference which itself was based on the French Wikipedia.
  • Tried to make the article less quote-heavy.
  • Removed a lot of content which discussed Goude's purported fascination with Black women. That content came almost exlusively from primary sources. And we can let the facts speak for themselves.
  • Toned down the wording in several places.

Spike (talk) 17:55, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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